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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Tuesday 02 November 21 19:53 GMT (UK)

Title: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 02 November 21 19:53 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately there is a lot of bleed through in this register.
I have attached the original, and a lightened copy.
I still get stumped after about the sixth line!
I would be grateful if anybody can make out any more - especially the names of Anne's parents on line 6, and what it is saying about Claude Philippe further down the page.
I am supposing quite a lot of the middle lines after 'bans', is about no impediment to the marriage etc.
Many thanks

L’an mil sept cent soixante sept et le neuf juillet je soussigné pratie vicaise
de cette paroisse ay matié solemnellement et en face de l’eglise Louis Antoine Bertolle
maitre perruquier agé de vingt six ans, fils du legitime mariage de Claude Phillipe
Bertolle et d’anne gerandot les pere et mere d’une parret(? de la paroisse de Saint Pierre
de cette ville, et Marie Catherine Danhier ageé de trente trios ans, fille du legitime
mariage de depp?  ? danhier  ? ? ? ?
pere et de cetter paroisse. Les bans ? public? divers jours de dimanche
?
?
a la consentement d’anne gerandot frere ? ?
? ?  ?............. de Claude
Philippe Bertolle …………..

Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: Zefiro on Tuesday 02 November 21 21:51 GMT (UK)
Not easy at all. I've come a little bit further. I think that both of the bride's parents were already deceased. I think I can read fille (...) des deffuncts (...), what can be translated as daughter of the late x and y.
Unfortunately I can't read the name of her mother.
I suspect that in the part that follows Claude Philippe Bertolle and Antoinette Monfiliatre are named as witnesses. Maybe I'll have another try at reading the rest tomorrow. Noww it's bedtime.  ;)

L’an mil sept cent soixante sept et le neuf juillet je soussigné pretre vicaire
de cette paroisse ay marié sollemnellement et en face de l’eglise Louis Antoine Bertolle
maitre perruquier agé de vingt six ans, fils du legitime mariage de Claude Phillipe
Bertolle et d’Anne Gerandot les pere et mere d’une part et de la paroisse de Saint Pierre
de cette ville, et Marie Catherine Danhier agée de trente trois ans, fille du legitime
mariage des deffuncts André Danhier et d'  ? ? ?  les pere et mere d'aultre
part et de cette paroisse. ??
?
?
et la consentement d’Anne Gerandot mere dudit Louis Antoine Bertolle. Les fiancailles
seront celebrées ... selon l'usage. Ledit contractant fut assisté de Claude
Philippe Bertolle ………….., ladite ... fut assistée
d'Antoinette Monfiliatre ... qui ont signés
avec moi vicaire et lesdits ...  aussi le certificat de
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: manukarik on Tuesday 02 November 21 22:08 GMT (UK)
My eyes too are struggling - will look again later. I think the bride's maiden name is Danhiez. That's certainly a name that crops up in the area.
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 02 November 21 23:23 GMT (UK)
Here's Marie Catherine's name in the baptism of three sons in 1768, 1769 and 1771.
In the same register, and they look as though they are by the same scribe.
Not clear if this is the same scribe as the marriage in 1767 though. You can see the different handwriting on various entries in the register.

You seem to know this area, and some of its inhabitants.
Let me know if you come across the name Bertolle!  :)
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 02 November 21 23:26 GMT (UK)
Just having another look at the marriage.
Is the father's name on line 6 ....something 'Andre' Danhiez?
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 03 November 21 21:19 GMT (UK)
I've decrypted some more. It's possible that you read some things different. I do not pretend to that my version is 100% correct.
Unfortunately a few important words remain illegible. I've highlighted these in red. I hope someone else can crack the last ?? .

L’an mil sept cent soixante sept et le neuf juillet je soussigné pretre vicaire
de cette paroisse ay marié sollemnellement et en face de l’eglise Louis Antoine Bertolle
maitre perruquier agé de vingt six ans, fils du legitime mariage de Claude Phillipe
Bertolle et d’Anne Gerandot les pere et mere d’une part et de la paroisse de Saint Pierre
de cette ville, et Marie Catherine Danhier agée de trente trois ans, fille du legitime
mariage des deffuncts André Danhier et d'?? les pere et mere d'aultre
part et de cette paroisse. Les bans ?? et publié par trois jours de dimanche
à la messe paroissiale ?? cette eglise que celle dudit Saint Pierre sans opposition,
ni empechement ?? certificat de monsieur Danguillaume curé de ladite paroisse
et le consentement d’Anne Gerandot mere dudit Louis Antoine Bertolle#. Ledit fiancailles
furent celebrées ?? selon l'usage. Ledit contractant fut assisté de Claude
Philippe Bertolle son pere ??, ladite contractante fut assistée
d'Antoinette Monfiliatre ?? et d'aultre ?? et ami qui ont signés
avec moi vicaire, lesdits jour et an.  #et aussi le certificat de monsieur
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: jayaygee on Thursday 04 November 21 00:06 GMT (UK)
I think after "Claude Philippe Bertolle son père" it says "et de charles dubreuil" and before that after "les bans" there is perhaps "ayant" before "été publiés", and "vu(s)" before "le certificat". After "fiancailles furent célébrées" it may say "la veille".  Not sure about any of this, but interested to know what you think.
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 04 November 21 01:07 GMT (UK)
Gosh well done Zefiro, and everybody else who chipped in.
That's fantastic.
I hope it hasn't made you all cross eyed!
I have found quite a lot of records for this family now in the Montreuil records, and that was certainly the worst one.

Sorry my post about his M Danhier's name Andre seems out of place.
I don't think your first post was there when I wrote that one. Perhaps something to do with the time differences.
Anyway, we seem to have been of like minds, so that's all good.
I'm glad you sussed the word 'deffuncts' - I kept seeing 'depp...'.

Good job!  :)
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: Zefiro on Thursday 04 November 21 19:06 GMT (UK)
I think after "Claude Philippe Bertolle son père" it says "et de charles dubreuil" and before that after "les bans" there is perhaps "ayant" before "été publiés", and "vu(s)" before "le certificat". After "fiancailles furent célébrées" it may say "la veille".  Not sure about any of this, but interested to know what you think.
All your suggestions seem to be spot on. Thank you for your input.
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 04 November 21 20:49 GMT (UK)
Just a query in the translation.

The second line '....marie sollemnellement  en face de l'eglise.....' seems to say they were married 'in front of the church', which gives me a picture of them all standing outside on the steps of the church to have the marriage ceremony. This is probably incorrect!
So does 'en face' in this context have a slightly different meaning? One would think it would be inside the church.

Thanks
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: Zefiro on Thursday 04 November 21 21:34 GMT (UK)
wikipedia (in French):
L'expression mariage en face de l'église doit être prise dans le sens : suivant les rites, en présence de l'autorité de l'Église. La cérémonie du mariage avait toujours lieu à l'intérieur de l'église
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariage_en_face_de_l%27%C3%A9glise

Translation: This expression must be understood in the sense: according to the rites, in the presence of the authority of the Church. The wedding ceremony always took place inside the church
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 05 November 21 00:44 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for that Zefiro.
I thought it must have a wider meaning than 'in front of the church'.

Did you catch my other queries on this post? you may be able to shed some light.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854994.msg7232007#msg7232007
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: Zefiro on Saturday 06 November 21 20:47 GMT (UK)
The correct name should be Antoine Monfiliette. If I had checked the signatures I would have seen this earlier.
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 November 21 07:16 GMT (UK)
Thanks Zefiro.

Antoine or Antoinette as was first thought?
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: Zefiro on Sunday 07 November 21 11:42 GMT (UK)
My initial reading was Antoinette Monfiliatre. After checking the signature in your other topic https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854924.msg7231132#msg7231132
I now clearly read Antoine Monfiliette. The surname has changed, but also the gender, since Antoine is a male name and Antoinette is female.
Title: Re: 1767 French marriage
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 November 21 20:34 GMT (UK)
My initial reading was Antoinette Monfiliatre. After checking the signature in your other topic https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854924.msg7231132#msg7231132
I now clearly read Antoine Monfiliette. The surname has changed, but also the gender, since Antoine is a male name and Antoinette is female.

Thanks Zefiro.  :)