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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Thursday 04 November 21 22:24 GMT (UK)

Title: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 04 November 21 22:24 GMT (UK)
This relates to this post
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854922.0
where several eagle eyed Rootschatters were incredibly helpful on a very difficult image of this marriage.
On completing writing it out fully, I find the last two lines don't seem to have been transcribed.
Excitingly, they may turn out to give a big clue!

I have:
.................................qui ont signes
avec moi vicaire ladit jour et ane    # et aussi la certificat de monsieur


then the next bit is missing.

It seems to say:
Biltelard vicaire de la paroisse de Saint Gervais de paris en date du six ?  ?
et on approuve la ?


Is that correct?
Any suggestions welcome.
Many thanks

Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: GR2 on Thursday 04 November 21 23:16 GMT (UK)
I think the second last line ends with "mois" and the last line begins with "et an" - month and year. Maybe the word before is "dits" - the said month and year.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Thursday 04 November 21 23:34 GMT (UK)
I think it reads "...le six des dits mois et an, approuvé le renvoy"
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 05 November 21 00:33 GMT (UK)
Many thanks GR2 and jayaygee.
Do you think that is a capital 'B' for his name? The name 'bertolle' is written several times in the text, and the writer never uses a capital B for these names - always what would look like a lower case 'b' to us.
And do you agree it does say Paris?

Google translate gives 'returned' for 'renvoy'.
I'm not sure I understand the sentence. I hope you might be able to help me out.
Why is this vicar from Paris providing a certificate? - it's added in after Louis Antoine's name, so would it apply to him? And what would 'approved the returned' mean?
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Friday 05 November 21 08:59 GMT (UK)
Not sure about the capital letter but they were used completely randomly in the past and I have noticed that quite often there is a capital for the first name and not for the surname, but here there is no first name for the priest.

I agree it reads "Paris", but don't know why the certificate should come from a parish there unless the bans were also read at Saint Gervais.  "Renvoi" here would mean the words to be inserted.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 05 November 21 10:35 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your comments jayaygee.

It may well be that Antoine Louis had come from Paris, although I can't find a birth there for him, or anywhere else.
There are a couple of documents that place his father Claude Philippe as being in Paris at some point. His occupation is the same (wigmaker), and his wife's name the same, so it's pretty certain it's the same man.

One of them is a 'renonciation' at a Notaire's in Paris in 1771. google translate tells me this a 'waiver'. Do you know what this might mean? I think it's about 15 years before he actually dies - back near Montreuil, so it doesn't sound as if this is the same as a will and testament?
There's only an index translation on geneanet in the Notarial Archive - it may be beyond my powers to find out how to go about getting hold of a copy!


Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: GR2 on Friday 05 November 21 11:41 GMT (UK)
My French dictionary says renonciation is a general legal term for giving something up (renouncing) and gives the correct usage for giving up the throne or the succession.

My French Mediaeval Latin dictionary says of the Latin renuntiatio that it is used for giving up a charter   as part of the process of having it confirmed to you.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: horselydown86 on Friday 05 November 21 13:36 GMT (UK)
Do you think that is a capital 'B' for his name?

If you mean the name in the larger script, then yes.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 05 November 21 21:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks  GR2 and HD.
I'm very curious about Claude  Louis 'renouncing' something!
I shall have to try and figure out how to get a copy of this. This is just an index on geneanet.
All new territory for me!
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: Zefiro on Friday 05 November 21 21:12 GMT (UK)
The text to be inserted where # was written in the document is as already  found by jayaygee. I'm not convinced the name of the vicaire is as suggested, but I can't offer anything better.
#vu aussi le certificat de monsieur
?telard vicaire de la paroisse de Saint Gervais de Paris en date de six des dits mois
et an, approuvé le renvoy
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 05 November 21 22:47 GMT (UK)
Thanks Zefiro.
Any ideas about a 'renonciation'?
or how I go about getting hold of it?
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 06 November 21 20:41 GMT (UK)
I don’t think this is the document your mentioned but in case you haven’t seen it, it is informative.  It is a request for a permission to wed within a prohibited degree of kindred:

https://www.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/18501/343

It gives you the ancestry of the parties showing how they are related :

-   Claude Philippe Bertolle
-   Son of Claude Bertolle
-   Son of Claude Barthélémy Bertolle and Madelaine Duvivier
-   Daughter of François Duvivier

-   Anne Giraudot
-   Daughter of Charles Giraudot and Marie Aimée (?) Duvivier
-   Daughter of François Duvivier
-   Son of François Duvivier

The petition was addressed to the ecclesiastical authorities in Paris and is held at the Archives Nationales. It is dated 28 juin 1735. Claude Philippe, a wigmaker, is aged 19 and has the consent of his father, Claude, drawn up by a notary in Montreuil sur Mer.

I haven’t yet been able to decipher all of it but Claude Philippe is living in the parish of St Eustache – the name of the street is given but so far I haven’t been able to make it out.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 06 November 21 21:01 GMT (UK)
The "renonciation" could well be the refusal of an inheritance which usually happened when the deceased left more debts than anything else.  Hopefully someone with more legal knowledge than me will be of more help.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 07 November 21 07:08 GMT (UK)
Gosh, that's fantastic jayaygee!
I have been searching on geneanet, but didn't find this!
I did manage to get to it by clicking on your link.
This is my first foray into French records, so I'm obviously not very adept at it.
How did you find it?
I'm glad you have picked out the pertinent bits - I can see the table of relationships at the bottom of the first page - but that's about it!

I can't seem to download these images.
The download icon just doesn't do anything - perhaps I'm missing the right software or something?
Should I be able to download them?

I have to say I'm finding searching for Paris births, deaths and marriages quite challenging!
Are the records just not digitised, or are many of them missing for some reason? Do you know?

Thank you very much for all you interest and help with this.

I have found a record of a burial for a child of Claude Philippe Bertolle and Anne Giradot in 1748 in Maillebois, Centre Val de Loire, where their address is given as Rue Montmatre in the parish of St Eustace in Paris. Might this be the address given in this marriage application?
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 07 November 21 10:58 GMT (UK)
I think I have access to a better search as I am a subscribed member of Geneanet which probably explains how I found it using "Claude Philippe Bertholle".  If I click on the image I get the option to save it - is it the same if you are using the English version?  If not, I'll try to send it to you.

Research in Paris is very difficult as a large number of records no longer survive pre-1860 were destroyed by fire.  If you look here:
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Au_del%C3%A0_de_l%27Etat-Civil_-_75_-_Registres_Paroissiaux
you can see what parish registers still exist.  I'm pretty sure the name of the street begins "rue de l'epo...." (could perhaps be "rue de la Poterie" but I'm not sure it was in the right parish) and isn't rue Montmartre.  I'll see if I can find a list of old Paris streets as much of that area has been redeveloped.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: manukarik on Sunday 07 November 21 11:37 GMT (UK)
I think I have access to a better search as I am a subscribed member of Geneanet which probably explains how I found it using "Claude Philippe Bertholle".  If I click on the image I get the option to save it - is it the same if you are using the English version?  If not, I'll try to send it to you.

Research in Paris is very difficult as a large number of records no longer survive pre-1860 were destroyed by fire.  If you look here:
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php/Au_del%C3%A0_de_l%27Etat-Civil_-_75_-_Registres_Paroissiaux
you can see what parish registers still exist.  I'm pretty sure the name of the street begins "rue de l'epo...." (could perhaps be "rue de la Poterie" but I'm not sure it was in the right parish) and isn't rue Montmartre.  I'll see if I can find a list of old Paris streets as much of that area has been redeveloped.

Is it perhaps rue de Poitiers, formerly rue Potier?

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rue_de_Poitiers (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rue_de_Poitiers)
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 07 November 21 16:03 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately the rue de Poitiers isn't in the right area of Paris to be in St Eustache parish.  I think rue de la Poterie - which no longer exists - is more likely as it was in the Halles area too.
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 07 November 21 16:22 GMT (UK)
You can find St Eustache church on this street map of 18th century Paris if you zoom in and go more or less due north from "PALAIS" on the Ile de la Cité.  South of the church to the right is the rue de la Potterie :

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b53085122h/f1.item.zoom
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: manukarik on Sunday 07 November 21 19:42 GMT (UK)
Interesting map  - I thought the Potterie refered to was just part of the Market Hall as there's Cordonnerie, Friperie, Petite Friperie, then Poterie and lots of names around that refer to products, but there are so many you must be right!

This confirms your deduction:
http://vergue.com/post/493/Rue-de-la-Tonnellerie (http://vergue.com/post/493/Rue-de-la-Tonnellerie)
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: goldie61 on Monday 08 November 21 04:11 GMT (UK)
More thanks jayaygee and manukarik  :)
So much new information it's very exciting.

As you say jayaygee, you get to see so much more if you pay into the premium level on geneanet, plus it allows you to search for variations of spelling if names.
Without that, I need to put in every variation I can think of and do a new search every time.
I'm glad to see names could vary just as much in French records as I'm used to seeing in English records!

Going back to the document you found from 1735 for Claude Philippe's marriage Jayayge,  does it give any occupations for his father Claude, or his grandfather Claude Barthelemy? Or in fact for any of the people mentioned? I see there are quite  few records for people named Francois Duvivier.
One of them was a master goldsmith - it would be great if that was him!
I think initially Claude Bertolle was a shoemaker, but then seems to make a career change and becomes the gaoler at the prison in Montreuil. I can't see his birth in Montreuil sur mer. I wonder if they came from elsewhere about 1712?
Claude Barthelemy Bertolle is a new generation, and I can't see him anywhere. Perhaps with the name variations on geneanet he might be somewhere? Might you be able to have a quick look jayaygee? I would be very grateful.

I still can't get the images to download. I've sent you a Personal Message on this site.

Many thanks again for your help
Title: Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
Post by: jayaygee on Monday 08 November 21 13:56 GMT (UK)
Erratum to my transcription of the genealogy at the bottom of the "consanguité" document:

Charles Geraudot's wife is Marie Anne and not Marie Aimée

I also found a list of the vicars of St Gervais church here:
https://fr.geneawiki.com/index.php?title=Paris_-_%C3%89glise_Saint-Gervais_-_Saint-Protais&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop
(you have to scroll down below all the photos to find it) and there is a Roland Thomas BOVILLERAT which seems to me might correspond with the Villerard which seems to be written - I know there is what looks like a T but it might be a bleed through or a misreading, bearing in mind that the original document would have been hand written and the name copied into the register entry.

Manukirk, good photo.  Regarding the map, I rather assumed there hadn't been enough room for the author to write "rue" in view of the maze of small streets in the area some of which do seem to be named after trades or goods that could have been sold in the market.  Latterly the Halles was only a food market but I don't know about the 18th century, haven't checked.