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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: guest259648 on Saturday 06 November 21 20:26 GMT (UK)

Title: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Saturday 06 November 21 20:26 GMT (UK)
Seeking evidence of a marriage between:
   John EVANS (age 40 on 1841 census Kingswinford), born Staffs?, miner
and
   Matilda, believed to be Matilda Mangin Dalley baptised 1800 Bridgnorth Shropshire.

I'm looking for pre-1841 details for John Evans + Matilda. They certainly lived together in Kingswinford and baptised their children, but I'm struggling to find a marriage.

Also seeking a baptism record for John Bernard Mangin Evans born approx. 1825, visible on 1841 census St Leonards Bridgnorth Shrops. [He served in the Army in India from c. 1847 - 1866].

Thanks a lot for helping







Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: ColC on Sunday 07 November 21 10:45 GMT (UK)

I note on freereg that John EVANS & Matilda Mangen had children baptised
Kingswinford : St Mary : Parish Register

John was a Miner abode Bromley on baptisms.

Matilda Mangen EVANS 13 Aug 1826
Susanna EVANS 21 Mar 1830 burial 3 Apr 1832 age 2
Mercy EVANS 18 Mar 1832 burial 27 Jun 1832 age 4m
Mary Ann EVANS 18 Oct 1835 burial 22 Feb 1837 age 1
Emma EVANS 11 Nov 1838
Martha EVANS 26 Jul 1840 burial 7 Nov 1841 died 4 Nov age  1y 3m

Son maybe, no father named?

William EVANS, age 1   Burial 15 Mar 1829   Abode  Bromley    Kingswinford : St Mary

Burials abode Bromley, no baptisms

Patience EVANS, age 4y 9m Burial   20 Nov 1836   Staffordshire   Kingswinford : St Mary :
Richard EVANS, age 3           Burial   22 Feb 1837   Staffordshire   Kingswinford : St Mary :

Note there was a John & Harriet abode Tansley Green.

I realise you may have this but it might help others to find their marriage.

Colin
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Sunday 07 November 21 12:05 GMT (UK)

I note on freereg that John EVANS & Matilda Mangen had children baptised
Kingswinford : St Mary : Parish Register

John was a Miner abode Bromley on baptisms.

Matilda Mangen EVANS 13 Aug 1826
Susanna EVANS 21 Mar 1830 burial 3 Apr 1832 age 2
Mercy EVANS 18 Mar 1832 burial 27 Jun 1832 age 4m
Mary Ann EVANS 18 Oct 1835 burial 22 Feb 1837 age 1
Emma EVANS 11 Nov 1838
Martha EVANS 26 Jul 1840 burial 7 Nov 1841 died 4 Nov age  1y 3m

Son maybe, no father named?

William EVANS, age 1   Burial 15 Mar 1829   Abode  Bromley    Kingswinford : St Mary

Burials abode Bromley, no baptisms

Patience EVANS, age 4y 9m Burial   20 Nov 1836   Staffordshire   Kingswinford : St Mary :
Richard EVANS, age 3           Burial   22 Feb 1837   Staffordshire   Kingswinford : St Mary :

Note there was a John & Harriet abode Tansley Green.

I realise you may have this but it might help others to find their marriage.

Colin

Colin
Thank you so much and No, I don't have all of this; it doesn't show up on the site/s I normally use.
I am only really aware of Matilda Mangen EVANS baptised 1826, who seems to have been the sole daughter who survived and bore children. (Not yet sure what happened to Emma EVANS...)

To confuse matters, this Matilda (1826, dau of John + Matilda) married another John EVANS born Donnington Shropshire. This couple had children named e.g. Amos, Mercy, Eli, Tabitha, thus suggesting a particular religious view.

Glad you've found things I can't see.
So a marriage might well be out there, somewhere...

Any joy with finding John Bernard Mangin Evans, birth 1825-ish?
Do you think this JBME could belong to John + Matilda, given his names? He stated "John Evans" as his father on his marriage cert (he got married in his 40s, after the Army).

D x
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: ColC on Sunday 07 November 21 13:42 GMT (UK)
I note the marriage of Matilda junior and the likely death of Emma.

Marriages Sep 1849   
Evans    John        Stourbridge    18   530
Evans    Matilda Mangion

EVANS, EMMA       1 
GRO Reference: 1840  D Quarter in STOURBRIDGE UNION  Volume 18  Page 316

I guess these are the deaths of Matilda & her daughter Matilda.
 
Deaths Sep 1884   
EVANS    Matilda    84    Stourbridge    6c   121

Deaths Mar 1906   
Evans    Matilda    28    Stourbridge    6c   77

The 1841 census was rounded down to nearest 5, so John could have been 44, so born 1797-1800, there are 18 baptisms on freereg for a John, none Kingswinford, but below nearby.

John EVANS Baptism   08 May 1796   Staffordshire   Brierley Hill : St Michael : Other Transcript

Possible deaths below.

EVANS, JOHN       58 
GRO Reference: 1855  M Quarter in STOURBRIDGE  Volume 06C  Page 127

EVANS, JOHN       64 
GRO Reference: 1864  M Quarter in STOURBRIDGE  Volume 06C  Page 125


No baptism of John Bernard Mangin Evans on family search, no records are on freereg for Bridgnorth.

No marriage for John & Matilda, the record may not have survived, or it may have been a civil marriage and not recorded or maybe they never married?

I did see on family search the mother of Matilda was Susanna, no father noted.

Colin
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Sunday 07 November 21 15:27 GMT (UK)
I note the marriage of Matilda junior and the likely death of Emma.

Marriages Sep 1849   
Evans    John        Stourbridge    18   530
Evans    Matilda Mangion

EVANS, EMMA       1 
GRO Reference: 1840  D Quarter in STOURBRIDGE UNION  Volume 18  Page 316

I guess these are the deaths of Matilda & her daughter Matilda.
 
Deaths Sep 1884   
EVANS    Matilda    84    Stourbridge    6c   121

Deaths Mar 1906   
Evans    Matilda    28    Stourbridge    6c   77

The 1841 census was rounded down to nearest 5, so John could have been 44, so born 1797-1800, there are 18 baptisms on freereg for a John, none Kingswinford, but below nearby.

John EVANS Baptism   08 May 1796   Staffordshire   Brierley Hill : St Michael : Other Transcript

Possible deaths below.

EVANS, JOHN       58 
GRO Reference: 1855  M Quarter in STOURBRIDGE  Volume 06C  Page 127

EVANS, JOHN       64 
GRO Reference: 1864  M Quarter in STOURBRIDGE  Volume 06C  Page 125


No baptism of John Bernard Mangin Evans on family search, no records are on freereg for Bridgnorth.

No marriage for John & Matilda, the record may not have survived, or it may have been a civil marriage and not recorded or maybe they never married?

I did see on family search the mother of Matilda was Susanna, no father noted.

Colin

Colin, thank you :-)
To enlarge the known details (and assist the search) I add this:

1. On Ancestry there is a Thomas EVANS bapt. 5 Jan 1823 Brierley Hill to a John EVANS + Matilda. [Baby Thomas died 27 May 1824]. This adds weight to your suggestion of John EVANS [bapt 1796?] coming from Brierley Hilll, since the pairing of a John Evans + a Matilda isn't common.

2. Matilda Mangin Dalley was illegitimate, yes: the Bridgnorth register says 'base-born', and her unmarried mother Susanna Dalley had at least 2 other later children presumably with different fathers. The MANGIN (very unusual in 19th century Shropshire, it seems to be Irish) ought to be Matilda's father's name? It doesn't occur in the Dalley family backwards; I've searched hard.

3. You think it's possible that John EVANS and Matilda Mangin Dalley didn't get married. I do too. Matilda's mother didn't marry but nevertheless had children. Family tradition?

4. This leaves us with the challenge of "John Bernard Mangin Evans" born approx. 1826 - which is what I actually want to solve. You can't see any baptism, Colin, nothing showing anywhere. I've drawn a blank, too, when looking for the name that's given on the 1841 census.

So: new thoughts.

If John EVANS and Matilda Mangin DALLEY weren't married, it could have been a fairly loose relationship... therefore could JBME be a son of just Matilda's, born in between Thomas Evans 1823 and Matilda Mangin Evans 1826, with a different father (not John EVANS?)

   Could this man JBME be 'John' + 'Bernard [the father's surname?]' + 'Mangin [= Matilda's father's name?]' + EVANS (to bring him into the family unit, because Matilda is living with John Evans?)

I know this sounds complex, but I've often found that people's middle names give the clue to their blood-line. And there are 2 middle names here, more than is strictly necessary! so they surely carry some importance, if only we could recognise it.

???

D x


Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: osprey on Sunday 07 November 21 15:42 GMT (UK)
That death reg must be for another Emma as she appears on later census entries. Martha was a widow on the 1851 census

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZW-DKB

and 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-KY3D
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: osprey on Sunday 07 November 21 16:12 GMT (UK)
possible death reg
John Evans 54 sept qtr 1847 Stourbridge vol 18 pg 316
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Sunday 07 November 21 17:02 GMT (UK)
possible death reg
John Evans 54 sept qtr 1847 Stourbridge vol 18 pg 316

Ah yes, thank you osprey.
The Index I can see for this death gives me 'Kingswinford' (within Stourbridge), so this is probably the correct death for John Evans who lived with Matilda Mangin Dalley in Kingswinford.

Still searching in vain for "john-bernard-mangin-evans" who, on every document I can find, stated that he was born in Kingswinford.
     However, on his Army papers 1866 he states that he is returning to Bridgnorth, 15 miles west of K'winford (which is where he served his apprenticeship, see 1841 census St Leonards, Cart Way).
     But he seems instead to find work in Wolverhampton and quotes a W'ton address when he gets married.

Is JBME Matilda Mangin Dalley's son? If so, then where, and under what name, might he have been baptised?
D



Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Sunday 07 November 21 17:08 GMT (UK)
That death reg must be for another Emma as she appears on later census entries. Martha was a widow on the 1851 census

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGZW-DKB

and 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27F-KY3D

osprey
Yes, thank you, I can see the Emma Evans on the 1881 Kingswinford, mother Matilda. (not Martha). Right family.

I've also spotted, on the 1891, a likely Emma Evans b. Bromley/Kingswinford aged 50, a cook.
So it seems that she survived well into adulthood but didn't marry.
D
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: osprey on Sunday 07 November 21 17:25 GMT (UK)
yes, she's on the 1901 census as well. Possible death reg age 69 sept qtr 1909 Stourbridge vol 6c pg 66.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS7F-XJ4
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 11:06 GMT (UK)
ColC (or other kindly Rootschatter)

Colin found this baptism record for me:

"John EVANS Baptism   08 May 1796   Staffordshire   Brierley Hill : St Michael : Other Transcript"

Can anyone see any births around this one, please, so I have more Christian names to play with, when trying to figure out the parents of this John Evans?

This man's place of abode on 1841 was 'Bromley' (mining area) east of Kingswinford.
Brierley Hill is just to the east of Bromley.

Thank you
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: ColC on Thursday 11 November 21 11:56 GMT (UK)
John baptised 1796 seems to be the only child of Duberly & Elizabeth EVANS I can find nothing else on the rather odd name of

Duberly, so I guess it may be a transcription error?

https://www.freereg.org.uk records


There are 16 Evans baptisms at Brierley Hill 1780 1820, various fathers.

The first Evans baptism at Kingswinford is 1813.


Colin
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 13:52 GMT (UK)
John baptised 1796 seems to be the only child of Duberly & Elizabeth EVANS I can find nothing else on the rather odd name of

Duberly, so I guess it may be a transcription error?

https://www.freereg.org.uk records


There are 16 Evans baptisms at Brierley Hill 1780 1820, various fathers.

The first Evans baptism at Kingswinford is 1813.


Colin

ColC
Thank you

To help the search, I've been homing in on this small district [Bromley, Brierley Hill, Kingswinford, south Sedgley] in an attempt to understand the patterns of work and the origins of the people working there 1790 to 1840-ish. Also looking at maps from early 1800s.

There seem to be lots of Welsh, who have presumably come north from Glamorganshire etc for the mining? My EVANS could belong to this group?

First EVANS baptism at Kingswinford 1813, you say... I'm thinking that the Welsh in very late 18th century were choosing to use small chapels rather than the parish church? They seem originally to be living in purpose-built communities [just east of K'winford] for the iron works & the open-cast mines.

But 'Duberly' - help!
Supposing it's been wrongly transcribed (and could have been a Welsh first name?], what might the correct word be?

D x




Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 14:03 GMT (UK)
ColC
There may be no need to struggle... it appears that DUBERLY is a proper surname, I've just found some 18th century families in e.g. Monmouth and, looking at the original baptism registers, it isn't a spelling error.

So maybe this Duberly Evans was given a surname as a first name, I've seen this lots of times.
Question is, who was he?

D
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 14:22 GMT (UK)
yes, she's on the 1901 census as well. Possible death reg age 69 sept qtr 1909 Stourbridge vol 6c pg 66.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS7F-XJ4

osprey
Thank you for completing the picture.
I often find it's the little details which lead us where we need to go - and it always helps to be diligent, and to fill things out as much as possible.
x
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: osprey on Thursday 11 November 21 14:41 GMT (UK)
 I was thinking that Duberly may have been a mistranscription but that is what is noted on the BT of the register.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM4-S9KX-J?i=57

It seems to be the only occurrence of it in the area so I'd still think it was an error.

 :-\

Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 16:49 GMT (UK)
I was thinking that Duberly may have been a mistranscription but that is what is noted on the BT of the register.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSM4-S9KX-J?i=57

It seems to be the only occurrence of it in the area so I'd still think it was an error.

 :-\

osprey
Please may I check (because I can't see Family Search): re DUBERLY
Somebody's noted that it IS a mistranscription? or that they believe so?

'The only occurrence in an area' might be because it belongs to a visitor, or someone a long way out of area who's just here for the work, for a short time?
It doesn't have to be an error; and indeed the local people may genuinely never have seen/heard it before...?

I'm British-born but there are Christian names in the English place I've retired to, which I honestly have never come across before...

D

Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 17:09 GMT (UK)
osprey

I've just found this:
Marriage 9 Feb 1777
    William DUBERLY
    Elizabeth EVANS
St Mary's, Kingswinford.
(Not a spelling mistake.)

The John EVANS born Brierley Hill 1796 [father Duberly mother Elizabeth] could - maybe - be a child of theirs?
Or they had a son [Duberly Evans] in, say, 1778, who had a son John in 1796?
Would be a big coincidence if there's no connection at all...?

D
Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: osprey on Thursday 11 November 21 17:58 GMT (UK)
I thought it was probably a mistranscription as there's no other record for the name as a first name in the area.

To view the record on FamilySearch, you just need to register, it's free.

For his surname to be Evans, he could have been born before the marriage. Not finding any record of him at the moment.

Title: Re: John EVANS, miner, in Kingswinford Staffs, did he wed?
Post by: guest259648 on Thursday 11 November 21 19:48 GMT (UK)
osprey
That's OK, many thanks for looking.

Don't try too hard with the Duberly, there's no proof yet that he was the father of the John EVANS that I seek.

We still haven't solved the problem I first put to RootsChat a few days ago.

I lack:
1. a marriage for John EVANS and Matilda [Dalley or Dallow or Mangin/Mangen], 1820s?
2. a baptism for John Bernard Mangin EVANS who, for sure, must be the brother of this couple's daughter Matilda Mangen EVANS who was baptised Kingswinford 1826.

There is a baptism record for a Thomas EVANS 1823, died 1824, born to John EVANS + Matilda, Brierley Hill. Then apparently nothing till 1826 (Baptism of Matilda.) But John Bernard Mangin EVANS' birth fits in between these 2 children, however we can't find it.  This family's practice is to baptise every child, so I am perplexed.

There's nothing to suggest that John EVANS changed his job or moved away between 1824 - 26. This mining family, first based in Bromley, shifts about a mile west, that's all, and then stays put for decades.

The appropriate baptism records for Brierley Hill exist, because Thomas is in them, 1823 + 1824.
The records for Kingswinford exist too, because Matilda is in them, 1826.

So why might [what ought to be] an existing record not show up in any online Index?
Or is there a page missing in the original book?
Or did someone forget to copy/photograph a page, or the back of one?

Can anyone see the original baptism registers for Kingswinford?

D