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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 11:32 GMT (UK)

Title: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 11:32 GMT (UK)
Could you help with this translation please of the marriage entry of Andrew Berrie and Ann Innes? Perhaps this is more a question for the Aberdeen board as I have transcribed most of the text and need help with the names but it would be great to get peoples thoughts on what is written first.

I have:

Upon the fourth day December one thousand eight hundred and two, by the Revd. Mr John Bryce minister of the Chapel of Ease in Belmont Street Aberdeen were lawfully married in the Brides house in Aberdeen after due proclamation of banns, Andrew Berrie shoemaker in Aberdeen and Ann Innes the daughter of the deceased George Innes late farmer in the parish of Bastophney (?). In presence of then witnesses James Nofs(?) shoemaker in Aberdeen and John Bruce Baker there.

The groom is indexed under Birnie - I think itís Berrie, any thoughts? I'd really like to know where the bride's father is from - Parish of B(?) - I can't find anything matching close to this. I've been looking here to compare names

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/ABD/_gazeteer/b

I had to do a bit of digging to find the Church/Chapel name, and I found:

Belmont Street
"The parish of South Kirk is situated within the town, and contains a population of 3934; the minister's stipend is £250, paid by the corporation. The church, originally a chapel of ease, was rebuilt in 1831, at an expense of £4544, and eontains 1562 sittings. There are places of worship for the United Presbyterian Church and Independents." 

And:

"In 1828, the Belmont Chapel of Ease, as it had come to be, became a fully fledged parish church, under the ministership of Reverend John Bryce"

And what are the witnesses names? I think Nofs is unlikely.

Thanks in advance.




Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 11:36 GMT (UK)
Sorry, I didn't mean to obscure the text.

Here is a cropped version without the red underline.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: Pennines on Monday 08 November 21 12:39 GMT (UK)
I suspect the witness's surname to have used the double 's' (ie where one 's' looks like an 'f') -- I think that surname may be Ross.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Monday 08 November 21 12:47 GMT (UK)
The groom's name is Birnie. The witness is Ross. The bride will have come from the Banffshire parish of Botriphnie.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 14:44 GMT (UK)
Ross makes sense. I see it now, thanks.

I would never have got Botriphnie. Excellent thanks.

If it is Birnie then I may have the wrong cert or perhaps there was a mistake with the recording. I don't see a tittle above the first "i" but I do see one on the second. It is indexed under Birnie and I'll admit it does look like it.

I'm looking at James Berry who died 15 November 1880 at 40 Blackfriars Street, Aberdeen. His death certificate names the parents as; Andrew Berry - shoemaker journeyman and Ann Innes.

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Monday 08 November 21 15:30 GMT (UK)
What was James Berry's occupation and his wife's name?
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 15:39 GMT (UK)
What was James Berry's occupation and his wife's name?

James Berry was a Wood Turner journeyman and married to Mary Booth (1812-1894)
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Monday 08 November 21 15:49 GMT (UK)
Have you traced James back through the censuses to see if there is any sign of a name change? When did he marry Mary Booth? Was his name Berry at that time?
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 16:26 GMT (UK)
I have the following:

1841 St Andrews Street, James Berrie Wood Turner
Parish: Aberdeen West; ED: 3; Page: 15; Line: 570; Year: 1841

1851 Jas Berry Wood Turner,
Parish: Aberdeen West; ED: 6A; Page: 6; Line: 12; Roll: CSSCT1851_39; Year: 1851

1861  James Berrie, 4 St Andrews Street, Aberdeen
Parish: St Nicholas; ED: 13; Page: 5; Line: 13; Roll: CSSCT1861_24

There is an 1833 marriage James Berry and Mary Booth 15/03/1833 168/A 290 59 Aberdeen. This gives the profession of James as a Farmer so Iím not sure it is correct. It does, however, correctly name the correct father of Mary - George Booth, confirmed by her death certificate. If his grandfather is George Innes, the late farmer in the parish of Botriphnie, then maybe that is the farming connection.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Monday 08 November 21 19:09 GMT (UK)
It's a difficult one. I can't see why he would change his name to Berry from Birnie. There are certainly plenty of Berrys earlier in Aberdeen, and James has at least two contemporaries of the same name in Aberdeen.

I did come across this, which you may already have.

People's Journal, 13-11-1880

At 17 Upper Denburn, Aberdeen, on the 21st
ult., EUPHEMIA BERRY, third daughter of James
Berry, wood turner, and wife of THOMAS WILSON,
in her 40th year. (American, New Zealand, and
Australian papers please copy.)
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 19:57 GMT (UK)
Thatís why I wonder if it is really Birnie.

The Ďiís and Ďeís are quite similar in the text. When I look at the Ďeí in Deceased or Aberdeen or Belmont they do look like an Ďií .
Itís Andrewís profession and the wifeís name that makes me think itís quite likely the right one. Iím also wary that I want it to be right and Iím trying to stay objective. :)

I know about Euphemia but I had not seen the article. When they write ďAmerican, New Zealand, and Australian papers please copy.Ē Does that suggest a connection abroad? Interesting.

Many thanks for your help.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Monday 08 November 21 21:56 GMT (UK)
Yes, it means there are connections in these countries, either on the Berry side or the Wilson side, or both.

There are five records of baptisms for a James Berry in Aberdeen and Old Machar (the outer part of Aberdeen) between 1800 and 1820:

Parents:

Andrew Berry and ----- 1800

Andrew Berry and Katharine Moir 1800

Andrew Berry and Ann Anderson 1807

James Berry and Christian Bisset 1808 [their son, James, died in 1890, so can be discounted]

John Berry and Helen Ross 1810

Could yours be the one from 1807? The parents names on a death certificate are only as accurate as the informant's knowledge.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: bbart on Monday 08 November 21 22:25 GMT (UK)
I am not sure if this is your fellow, but the William ANDREW Berry, could that be father or grandfather?

Image of memorial: https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2014/251/135642977_1410285407.jpg

Original link: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/135642977/james-berry
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 23:06 GMT (UK)
The 1807 birth entry fits and also matches the monumental inscription.

The entry reads:

Andrew Berry shoemaker and his spouse Ann Anderson had a son named James, baptised by the Revd. Mr Bryce in presence of William Berry and David Berry weavers in Aberdeen.

I would say that a marriage entry is likelier to be more accurate, however, it not the sole entry for Innes. Jane Milne ms Berry who died 1889 aged 84 in Buffle, Tough her death certificate also names Andrew Berry shoemaker and Ann Berry ms Innes as the parents. Different informants but perhaps the same source.

Maybe there are a few Berry shoemakers, a family business.

Thanks again
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 23:09 GMT (UK)
I meant to write the OPR entry is dated 27th August 1807. Same as the MI.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Monday 08 November 21 23:30 GMT (UK)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/198088731/william-berry

Carrying on the thought about the Berryís being shoemakers. I found:
 
Erected by William Berry, shoemaker
In memory of his father
GEORGE BERRY died 22 Apr 1871 aged 87; his mother
ANN ROBERTSON died 10 Oct 1859 aged 67; his brother
JOHN died 31 Dec 1857 aged 25; his wife
MARGARET TAYLOR died 27 Mar 1880 aged 47; their dau
HELLEN died Huddersfield 7 May 1885 aged 20; above
WILLIAM BERRY died 18 Sept 1889 aged 65.

Thanks bbart for reminding me of other websites to check.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: bbart on Tuesday 09 November 21 05:51 GMT (UK)
On the larger image you posted, is the top entry at a different Chapel? I am wondering if this is not the original record from the Chapel of Ease, but a copy sent up the hierarchy of the church.  If so, the original might have been mistranscribed on the one you posted.

James Berry and Mary Booth had a daughter, Mary Ann baptised in 1844.  The index at Scotlandspeople has the daughter as Mary Ann Booth Berry, however both Ancestry and FindmyPast have her as Mary Ann Booth INNES Berry.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Tuesday 09 November 21 08:12 GMT (UK)
I can confirm it is Mary Ann Booth INNES Berry. She must have died young as they name their next child Mary Booth Berry in 1846.

On the larger image you posted, is the top entry at a different Chapel? I am wondering if this is not the original record from the Chapel of Ease, but a copy sent up the hierarchy of the church.  If so, the original might have been mistranscribed on the one you posted.

It does look like chapel of Aberdeen.

I wonder as the ceremony was conducted at the brideís home if the entry would have been written up later from notes, perhaps much later.

There are a few curveballs with this line. I can easily see how some of the mismatches could be explained by a mistranscribed note or shorthand.

The profession Turner could easily become the more common Farmer
Berrie could easily become Birnie
The Innes to Anderson is a bit of a stretch and this is the one that has thrown me the most.

Maybe I need to look more at the Chapel of Ease and their record keeping. Perhaps the Rev. John Bryce liked home visits as he could join in the celebrations, wetting the babies head etc.

Thanks again for your help. Posting here really makes me double check and question everything.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Tuesday 09 November 21 08:38 GMT (UK)
Just to add. The marriage entry for Jean/Jane Berry (parents Andrew Berry shoemaker and Ann Innes)  to George Milne (14/06/1840) 171/ 20 62 Alford, gives no additional information. Just George Milne of this parish and Jean Berry of the Parish of Lumphanan.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Tuesday 09 November 21 08:46 GMT (UK)
It would be worth checking the censuses (FreeCEN has the Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire ones for 1841 - 1871) to see where this Jean Berry was born.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Tuesday 09 November 21 09:33 GMT (UK)
It would be worth checking the censuses (FreeCEN has the Aberdeen/Aberdeenshire ones for 1841 - 1871) to see where this Jean Berry was born.

1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a13fbeaf4040b9d6edf1499/george-milne-1841-aberdeenshire-alford-1811-?locale=en
1851
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026646e9379091b1c84354/george-milne-1851-aberdeenshire-lumphanan-1812-?locale=en
1861
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902697ee9379091b1d57b86/george-milne-1861-aberdeenshire-lumphanan-1811-?locale=en
1871
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026d03e9379091b1e41207/george-milne-1871-aberdeenshire-lumphanan-1811-?locale=en

1871 gives the place of birth as St Nicholas and her maiden name. The others just say Aberdeen or City of Abderdeen.
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: GR2 on Tuesday 09 November 21 10:36 GMT (UK)
One other thing you could try is to look at the minutes and/or accounts of the kirk session of the chapel of ease. There might be a reference there. They, as you probably know, are available to read free on ScotlandsPeople. You would search for Aberdeen and pick out the correct congregation and volumes (if they are available).
Title: Re: 1802 Marriage Certificate - Aberdeen
Post by: DudelsackHogg on Tuesday 09 November 21 14:25 GMT (UK)
One other thing you could try is to look at the minutes and/or accounts of the kirk session of the chapel of ease. There might be a reference there. They, as you probably know, are available to read free on ScotlandsPeople. You would search for Aberdeen and pick out the correct congregation and volumes (if they are available).

Good idea. There are some Kirk Session minutes available. This one seems to be relating to the Chapel of Ease:

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/virtual-volumes/record-creator-search/sessions-volumes?rex_uid=REX00073&related_places=GAZ00070&placename=Aberdeen%20city

For earlier entries it looks like it will be in the Aberdeen - St Nicholas Kirk session. It looks pretty complete. Going to keep me busy.

Hopefully I'll find something useful. I will post an update if I do.

Thanks