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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: NevilleTB on Wednesday 10 November 21 07:29 GMT (UK)

Title: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Wednesday 10 November 21 07:29 GMT (UK)
I am researching Sarah Sutton (1788-1856) who married (amongst others) James Murphy in 1818. I am interested in finding out details of her parents who were William and Ann Sutton.

Looking through family trees they seem to agree on most facts, but I have my doubts.They point to William Sutton being a convict who arrived in 1789. He was born William Talbot Sutton in 1762
<a href= "https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/162392640:9841?tid=&pid=&queryId=3da421652e5b32b629b70aff1a222d51&_phsrc=LxO941&_phstart=successSource" /a>

According to some family trees he was married to Ann Carrington in 1795 after having children Edward (1780), Sarah (1788), Harriet (1790) and Mary (1791). Another daughter Charlotte was born in 1798 in Kent. William had returned after serving his sentence.

In 1801 Ann, Sarah and Harriet arrived on the Porpoise. Most family trees have William returning to Australia although he is not mentioned as being on the Porpoise. I suppose he could have returned on another boat but it seems unlikely. I can find no record of his emigration.

In 1818 William, Ann and Harriet returned to England.

My Problem.
None of this seems to hang together. I suspect the father of Sarah was a convict William Sutton who arrived on the Barwick in 1795. I can find no details of his trial or his prior life in England. I believe Ann, Sarah and Harriet followed in 1801. In 1818 William, Ann and Harriet returned to London on a ship the David Shaw.
<a href="https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1602/images/30513_081749-00060?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mv3-808973&_phstart=successSource&pId=2020" /a>

So William and Ann had daughters Sarah and Harriet but cannot confirm any other children. I am unsure if William Talbot Sutton who is regularly quoted as this person is in fact the right person. I cannot find a link. As for children Edward, Charlotte and Mary, I am not sure they actually exist.

According to a number of family trees, Ann's maiden name was Carrington. I found another William Sutton born 1760 marring an Ann Giles in 1787 at St Giles Cripplegate (where else with that name)
<a href="https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/2056/images/32515_1831109387_0039-00218?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=73852404f11b364e934385fb5a0bfa82&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO962&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=171902" /a>

So to summarise I suspect William is not William Talbot. He is the convict arriving in 1795. He married Ann Giles in 1787 and had daughters Sarah in 1788 and Harriet in 1790. Ann followed him in 1801 with the children and all but Sarah returned in 1818. Perhaps William Talbot married Ann Carrington and the other children were their children.

I have just about exhausted all my sources and would be grateful if anyone could point me in a new direction.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 10 November 21 08:56 GMT (UK)
Very tricky with such a common name (I have a few William SUTTON's in my tree - though not this one!)

I see that the passenger list for the David Shaw in 1818 says William SUTTON was "formerly store keeper at Sydney". There are a few mentions of (I assume) this William, storekeeper, on trove between 1804 and 1816 that may be of interest.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article626199
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page6381
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628019
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628199
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628283
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628558
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2176618

And possibly some others to do with property purchases.

And this one indicating they're leaving the colony
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2177894
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2177887

However, I see nothing here to indicate he came as a convict? And also not sure how to link your Sarah to this William SUTTON? I see she married at Parramatta (by banns, and could not sign). James MURPHY signed and witnesses John MONTGOMERY and Frances KELLEHAN (who both did not sign).
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 10 November 21 09:09 GMT (UK)
Also some interesting goings on with daughter Harriet in 1806 "eloping"

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article627104
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article627114
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article627127
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article627158
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article627149
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Wednesday 10 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK)
As far as I can tell, the William Sutton convicted in 1795 was just 19 and arrived on the Barwell, not the Barwick, or were there two similarly named men convicted around the same time?
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 10 November 21 09:42 GMT (UK)
Looking at the 1811 muster roll, I can see only the one William SUTTON - yes arrived Barwell, 1795.

Also in the "Free Women" are Sarah and Ann SUTTON arrived Porpoise (but no Harriet SUTTON)
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 10 November 21 10:15 GMT (UK)
I haven't found the evidence of the land grant, however this blog suggests that indeed the convict William SUTTON who arrived on the Barwell was given 148 acres of land in 1804.
http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7012.htm

This would tie in with this advertisement in Nov 1818 which says William SUTTON ("late of Sydney") left his land to his daughter Sarah WILKES.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2178319

Not sure about WILKES, as your Sarah is SUTTON in June 1818 when she marries James MURPHY.  :-\

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Wednesday 10 November 21 10:57 GMT (UK)
OK. Useful information. Yes. It was the Barwell rather than the Barwick. My mistake.

Sarah Sutton married John Wilks in 1807. He was in the Windsor region. She then moved on to James Murphy. In the Stock and Property Book James is listed. He has 5 cattle on the 14th of Oct 1819. He does not appear to have a land holding.

It is interesting that the best man at his wedding, John Montgomery is a substantial landholder on the same page of the records. He has 50 acres of which only 5 is cleared. He still has 4 horses, 14 cattle, 4 hogs, 10 bushels of wheat and 20 of maize. Possibly James was working for John Montgomery.

In this reference there is reference to Sarah and Hannah. Could Hannah have been Harriet?
https://www.australianhistoryresearch.info/list-of-free-settlers-from-england-who-been-left-by-different-ships-without-any-order-from-government-as-the-1802-muster/

There was another William Sutton around at the time but he went to Tasmania. The first WS who came out in 1789 seems to have faded away.

Too many nebulous links. I will go through all the replies in detail tomorrow. Thanks for your input.

 
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 11 November 21 04:36 GMT (UK)
Where do you see the marriage of Sarah SUTTON and John WILKS? On the NSW BDM index I see a John WILKINSON married Elizabeth HARRIS in 1807, however nothing for Sarah.  :-\

If your Sarah married John WILKS, why didn't she marry James MURPHY as Sarah WILKS?
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 11 November 21 04:48 GMT (UK)
Just to confuse things more ...

Looking at the 1822 muster I see a Sarah SUTTON who arrived on the Porpoise (so presumably not married to James MURPHY). There is also the William SUTTON who has a free pardon and arrived on the Barwell (labourer at Parramatta) and 5 SUTTON children born in the colony "children of Sarah Sutton, Parra".

So this implies the William SUTTON, storekeeper who travelled back to England is not the William SUTTON who arrived as a convict on the Barwell.

(Note there are 2 other William SUTTONs as well - at Windsor and Bathurst.)
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Rhonda May on Thursday 11 November 21 04:55 GMT (UK)
William Sutton
transported on the Neptune, Scarborough and Surprize, December 1789   
London Gaol Delivery
https://convictrecords.com.au/

Was he this man?
Number INX-65-124866
SUTTON William
Record Type Absolute Pardon
Date 12 Nov 1794
Citation [4/4486; Reel 800 Page 002]
Index Number 65
https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/search?vid=61SRA


Mention of the storekeeper
Item: 97468
Sutton William
Ship: -
Date: 1807 22 March
Place: Newcastle (Coal River)
Source: SG
Details: William Sutton, Storekeeper at Coal River dismissed from his Office because of his disorderly and improper manner to Charles Throsby. Sutton replaced by John Tucker
https://www.freesettlerorfelon.com/


This William SUTTON already mentioned in Reply #3 is unlikely to be a father?
Age 19 | Ship: Barwell | Place of Trial: Surrey | Sentence: 7 years | County: Surrey
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 11 November 21 05:06 GMT (UK)
Sarah WILKS,"agent for Wm Sutton" of Parramatta, is also mentioned in various Colonial Secretary's Papers (11 July 1818 and other dates) - this is later than the marriage of Sarah SUTTON to James MURPHY (8 June 1818). So again, I think they are 2 different Sarahs.  :-\
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 11 November 21 06:34 GMT (UK)
Let me cover Sarah Sutton first. I know most of her life except where her parents fit in

1789 Baptized in Christ Church Spitelfield, Stepney, London on 18 Oct 1789. The entry reads
“Sarah Sutton by William Sutton of White Row by Ann”. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31280_194728-00319?usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO612&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=3426207

1806 Sarah had taken up with John Wilkes in 1806. She was only 17 at the time. It may have been a convict John Wilkes who arrived on 16 Oct 1789. John arrived on the Admiral Barrington after being convicted on 25 Feb 1789. In 1806 They had a daughter Harriet Wilks REF: 1658/1806   2141/1806   639/1806

1807 Sarah Sutton may have married John Wilks around this time. It is mentioned in several family trees however no record exists. I personally doubt it happened.

1808 Sarah had a son William Wilks. REF: 1666/1808   1866/1808   589/1808   2140/1808

1809 John Wilks is in the Hawkesbury area. https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1905&h=28749&tid=&pid=&queryId=6d80acc112cc17d7094c482ce98949a7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO731&_phstart=successSource

1810 James and Sarah had a daughter Mary Ann Murphy born on 5 Dec 1810. She was christened on 28 Apr 1811. As she was born out of wedlock and was not registered. She still went by the name Sarah Wilks. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00434?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO660&_phstart=successSource&pId=29113

1811 Sarah’s three-year-old son William Wilks passed away REF: 2746/1811   889/1811, James Murphy was included in the convict muster. REF: https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/8813/images/41720_329547-00090?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=d47f743e6a80edf2fb9bc26b01f7370c&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mv3-1597125&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=71545

1813 James and Sarah had a daughter Margaret Elizabeth Murphy on 26 Feb 1813. She was baptized at St John's Church Parramatta on 28 Mar 1813. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00446?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO658&_phstart=successSource&pId=29225

1814 James Murphy was included in the population records for Windsor.He is working for T. L. Sawyer. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/8813/images/41720_329547-00221?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=fa75b26e71885f5a036e84c3d07e9a4b&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO932&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=67432

1816 James and Sarah had a daughter Susannah Murphy born 8 Feb 1816 and Christened at St John's Parramatta on 11 Dec 1817. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00471?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO663&_phstart=successSource&pId=29470

1818 James Murphy and Sarah Sutton were married in Sydney on 8 Jun 1818. REF: 2197/1818. William Sutton, the father of Sarah, sailed for England on the ship David Shaw in May 1818 with his wife and daughter Harriet Sutton.

1819 James and Sarah had a daughter Catherine Murphy born on 15 Sept 1819. This was the first child registered. This was probably a result of James and Sarah had been married the year before. REF: 5220/1819 Catherine Murphy was christened on 10 Sept 1820 at St John's Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00488?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO665&_phstart=successSource&pId=2963

1820 Death of James Murphy aged 51 of the parish of Parramatta. He was buried on 7 Sep 1820. It does not appear he ever received a certificate of freedom and died a convict. REF: 4785/1820

Continued .........
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 11 November 21 06:38 GMT (UK)
Around this time Sarah became involved with George Pember (1783-1850). She was 32 at the time. George had come out a convict.
George Pember, one of 401 convicts transported on the ship Glatton, September 1802.
Sentence details: Convicted at Hereford Assizes for a term of life on 05 August 1801.
Vessel: Glatton.
Date of Departure: September 1802.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Glatton arrived in NSW 11 Mar 1803

1821 Son Phillip Pember (1821-1852) was born. REF: 5852/1821 The name on the birth registration is Sarah (Murphy)

1823 Sarah received a grant of land in Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228362__0001-00013?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=9e608a96f42cf60b52231b09a5341e4f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO644&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=118541

1824 Sarah Murphy married Henry Schooler at Campbelltown. She was 36 at the time. Just to keep up the record Henry was also a convict. He was 37. REF: 3296/1824   3298/1824
Henry Skooler, one of 306 convicts transported on the ship Fortune and Alexander, January 1806.
Sentence details: Convicted at Middlesex Gaol Delivery for a term of 14 years on 24 April 1805.
Vessel: Fortune and Alexander.
Date of Departure: January 1806.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Fortune (1) arrived in the colony on 12 Jul 1806

1828 Sarah was included in the census at Parramatta living with Henry Schooler. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525 This is relevant as it mentions the Murphy children

1845 Sarah Schooler as she was now known, made a land claim. She had a lease on the land for 21 years (since 1823) but had not paid the rent. She offered to pay a fine equal to the outstanding rent. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12880698?searchTerm=sarah%20schooler

1866 It is unclear when Sarah Sutton/Wilkes/Murphy/Schooler died. Various family trees say 1855 but there is no record of her death under any of her names in 1855. In addition, there are no death notices in newspapers, so we are unable to confirm that date.
Her most-used surname was Murphy so the death would likely have been listed as Sarah Murphy. There was a Sarah Murphy who died in 1866 aged 75 years. This particular Sarah would have been born in 1790 or 1791. We have Sarah being born in 1789 so the numbers closely align. Death records can be unreliable so perhaps this was Sarah Sutton etc. REF: 1484/1866

1867 Sarah’s husband Henry Schooler died in Liverpool. He was 80 so he would have been born in 1787. REF: 5603/1867
Around this time Sarah became involved with George Pember (1783-1850). She was 32 at the time. George had come out a convict.
George Pember, one of 401 convicts transported on the ship Glatton, September 1802.
Sentence details: Convicted at Hereford Assizes for a term of life on 05 August 1801.
Vessel: Glatton.
Date of Departure: September 1802.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Glatton arrived in NSW 11 Mar 1803

1821 Son Phillip Pember (1821-1852) was born. REF: 5852/1821 The name on the birth registration is Sarah (Murphy)

1823 Sarah received a grant of land in Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228362__0001-00013?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=9e608a96f42cf60b52231b09a5341e4f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO644&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=118541

Continued ......

















Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 11 November 21 06:38 GMT (UK)
1824 Sarah Murphy married Henry Schooler at Campbelltown. She was 36 at the time. Just to keep up the record Henry was also a convict. He was 37. REF: 3296/1824   3298/1824
Henry Skooler, one of 306 convicts transported on the ship Fortune and Alexander, January 1806.
Sentence details: Convicted at Middlesex Gaol Delivery for a term of 14 years on 24 April 1805.
Vessel: Fortune and Alexander.
Date of Departure: January 1806.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Fortune (1) arrived in the colony on 12 Jul 1806

1828 Sarah was included in the census at Parramatta living with Henry Schooler. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525 This is relevant as it mentions the Murphy children

1845 Sarah Schooler as she was now known, made a land claim. She had a lease on the land for 21 years (since 1823) but had not paid the rent. She offered to pay a fine equal to the outstanding rent. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12880698?searchTerm=sarah%20schooler

1866 It is unclear when Sarah Sutton/Wilkes/Murphy/Schooler died. Various family trees say 1855 but there is no record of her death under any of her names in 1855. In addition, there are no death notices in newspapers, so we are unable to confirm that date.
Her most-used surname was Murphy so the death would likely have been listed as Sarah Murphy. There was a Sarah Murphy who died in 1866 aged 75 years. This particular Sarah would have been born in 1790 or 1791. We have Sarah being born in 1789 so the numbers closely align. Death records can be unreliable so perhaps this was Sarah Sutton etc. REF: 1484/1866

1867 Sarah’s husband Henry Schooler died in Liverpool. He was 80 so he would have been born in 1787. REF: 5603/1867
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Thursday 11 November 21 06:42 GMT (UK)
And to add to the confusions, confuddlements and dilemmas,  there are definitely some/plenty of official records that MAY WELL belong to any of the chaps known as William SUTTON but are possibly claimable (rightly or wrongly) by family history buffs researching William SUTTOR.   (Sutter and other variations too).   

One of the 'problems' is the standard of scribble of the clergy in NSW ... Rev Marsden's scribble v Rev Cowper's scribble v Rev Cartwright's scribble - 

JM 

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Thursday 11 November 21 07:02 GMT (UK)
I am not sure what you mean when you write 'registered' :

......
1810 James and Sarah had a daughter Mary Ann Murphy born on 5 Dec 1810. She was christened on 28 Apr 1811. As she was born out of wedlock and was not registered. She still went by the name Sarah Wilks. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00434?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO660&_phstart=successSource&pId=29113
 .......

1819 James and Sarah had a daughter Catherine Murphy born on 15 Sept 1819. This was the first child registered. This was probably a result of James and Sarah had been married the year before. REF: 5220/1819 Catherine Murphy was christened on 10 Sept 1820 at St John's Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00488?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO665&_phstart=successSource&pId=2963
.....

I ask, because 'registered' to me when referring to NSW bdm  indicates a civil registration process, and in NSW that does not commence until 1 March 1856.   The Early Church Records (the 'V' series held by NSW BDM) has never been considered to contain all the bdm events that occurred in NSW from first settlement until civil registration.  It has not even claimed to have all the religious baptisms or burials or marriages for any of the more popular denominations.   It does have MANY of the church records for the various denominations for those years/decades before the NSW bdm civil process commenced.   There is a fairly reliable document put together by NSW BDM back in 2006, celebrating 150 years of civil registrations. 

https://www.nsw.gov.au/births-deaths-marriages/about-us/history-of-registry

Two paragraphs from that document read:

Church registrations
From 1788 to 1856 the only birth, death or marriage records kept in NSW were the registers maintained by the established churches. The Registry holds transcriptions of these early church records. Any surviving original registers are located in the NSW Archives.

Unfortunately, the extant records for this period are not comprehensive. Some ministers, missionaries and other authorised administrators kept records but not all were in a position to be this diligent. In addition many of the records contain inaccuracies and bad spelling. Distances to town centres, distrust of authority and lack of participation in formal church services contributed to the church registration system's inability to adequately record the details of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in NSW.


Ancestry has some of the Sydney C of E baptisms, burials and marriages.  So, for example does NOT even have all of the parishes covering Sydney CBD.   The NSW State Library and the NSW State Archives do have reels of film of the NSW BDM holdings for the Early Church Records. 

To the best of my knowledge (and I have checked with my ancient living rellies - retired NSW BDM senior officers, and retired C of E clergy), there has never been any concern as to the status of a baby's parent/s in respect of baptising the baby.   So whether baby's mum is married or not, baby is eligible to be baptised, and it has been that way in NSW since first settlement. 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 11 November 21 07:21 GMT (UK)
Moving on to William Sutton, someone by that name seems to have been a storekeeper in Newcastle (Coal River) in 1804, dismissed in 1807, appointed by the governor as storekeeper in 1810, was still there in 1816. He left the colony in 1818 on the David Shaw with wife and daughter Harriet. Obviously she had been rescued from her tryst in 1806.

In parallel, there is a land grant to William in 1806 and the transfer of the land to Sarah in 1818.

Perhaps William was granted land while working as a storekeeper in Newcastle and gave it to Sarah when he left the colony. There is no reference I can turn up for the death of a William Sutton, so maybe the reason for the gift was William went back to England. Sarah and James Murphy were married in 1818 so maybe it was a significant year for the family.

I am now thinking William the convict on the Barwell is the storekeeper who went back to England.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 11 November 21 07:26 GMT (UK)
Thanks to majm for the lesson on birth records. By registration I meant BDM records but I was not aware of the information in your post. Very enlightening.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 11 November 21 08:55 GMT (UK)


I am now thinking William the convict on the Barwell is the storekeeper who went back to England.

I don't think so as the William SUTTON who arrived on the Barwell is definitely included on the 1822 muster, whilst the other went back to England in 1818. (as per reply #8)
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 11 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK)


In this reference there is reference to Sarah and Hannah. Could Hannah have been Harriet?
https://www.australianhistoryresearch.info/list-of-free-settlers-from-england-who-been-left-by-different-ships-without-any-order-from-government-as-the-1802-muster/



"Hannah" could well be "Ann".

I was wondering how you  can be certain that Sarah was baptised at Stepney in 1789? There are a few possible baptisms in this time period in the London area (and possibly more outside London!)

What do you think William's occupation is on the baptism you have for Sarah at Stepney? (the word before "White Row")
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 11 November 21 09:45 GMT (UK)
There is also a William George SUTTON baptised at Christ Church Spitalfields to parents William and Ann of White Row on 16 Oct 1791.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 11 November 21 13:04 GMT (UK)
It doesn't add to anything, but Sarah is also in the 1841 census at Parramatta as Sarah Skawler. 
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Thursday 11 November 21 13:30 GMT (UK)
Quote
There was a Sarah Murphy who died in 1866 aged 75 years. This particular Sarah would have been born in 1790 or 1791. We have Sarah being born in 1789 so the numbers closely align. Death records can be unreliable so perhaps this was Sarah Sutton etc. REF: 1484/1866

There is a death notice for this Sarah - relict of the late John Morris Murphy
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Thursday 11 November 21 22:17 GMT (UK)
Quote
There was a Sarah Murphy who died in 1866 aged 75 years. This particular Sarah would have been born in 1790 or 1791. We have Sarah being born in 1789 so the numbers closely align. Death records can be unreliable so perhaps this was Sarah Sutton etc. REF: 1484/1866

There is a death notice for this Sarah - relict of the late John Morris Murphy

Followup from Jomot's sighting ...  :D

From various digitised newspapers readily available online via Trove, the wonderful website of the National Library of Australia:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/166662675 Sydney Mail 8 December 1866
DEATHS
Murphy – December 6th, at her residence, 15 Cole’s buildings, Miller’s Point, Sarah, relict of the late John Morris Murphy, Sergeant HM 28TH Infantry, aged 75 years.


JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 11 November 21 23:11 GMT (UK)
Seems the fact that William from the Barwell was around in the 1822 muster rules out the shopkeeper who returned to England in 1818.

There are at least three William Suttons.

The other key piece of information is:
Quote
I haven't found the evidence of the land grant, however this blog suggests that indeed the convict William SUTTON who arrived on the Barwell was given 148 acres of land in 1804.
http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7012.htm

This would tie in with this advertisement in Nov 1818 which says William SUTTON ("late of Sydney") left his land to his daughter Sarah WILKES.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2178319

So that could be seen as fairly strong confirmation that  Sarah had a father called William who had land in the colony. If the land went to his daughter, why? He may have died but I cannot find a record. He may have left the colony. He may have been too old to unable to manage the land. Could this point to the first William who arrived in 1789? How accurate are immigration records of the time for convicts and free settlers?

Regarding the question of his birth as William Talbot Sutton in 1762, I found that reference on a number of family trees but have my doubts for two reasons. First the name Talbot does not appear again in any records I have found. Second, there is nothing to link the birth to any further events.

This post has turned up a lot of interesting facts, but I still cannot find a thread that ties them together.

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Thursday 11 November 21 23:30 GMT (UK)
.....

In 1801 Ann, Sarah and Harriet arrived on the Porpoise. Most family trees have William returning to Australia although he is not mentioned as being on the Porpoise. I suppose he could have returned on another boat but it seems unlikely. I can find no record of his emigration. ......

Are you sure that the SUTTON family were on the Porpoise departing (finally) England November 1800, arriving Sydney 1801.    It is entirely possible that the family on the Porpoise were the SUTTOR family (not the SUTTON family), as in George SUTTOR who became the Superintendent of the Lunatic Asylum at Castle Hill, and who received a land grant at Baulkham Hills, and who accompanied Bligh back to England for Bligh's Court Martial, and then who returned to NSW in 1812 bv the Mary.   

ADD https://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/suttor-george-1270

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Thursday 11 November 21 23:57 GMT (UK)
..... How accurate are immigration records of the time for convicts and free settlers?..

Shipping records were not required to be archived.  The focus was on ensuring that the penal administration headquartered in Sydney established and maintained adequate records and the statistics from those records were to be regularly transmitted back to the English administrative offices so that England could budget for the expenses incurred in the penal settlements.   Here is a live link :   https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-shipping-and-passenger-records/new-south-wales

Passenger lists with names and identifying details of their ancestors were not ever a focus in the penal era (to say 1826ish), nor in the colonial era and well as for the gold rushes era ... don't hold your breath.   If the person came free, and was NOT a cabin passenger, then until at least 1828, it is very unlikely that there will be any official record at all - 1828 so the name of the ship of arrival will likely be noted next to the name of the then living person included in the NSW census of late 1828.  Here is a live link to NSW Archives re immigration, shipping ...  :)   https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/immigration-shipping-guide   Here is a thread re the fantastic Log of Logs  :) https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=812968.0 

I note that the digitised Convict Indents for the years 1788 to 1801 are freely available at the NSW State Archives website. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/convict-indents-digitised-index 

Here is a thread re NSW Archives and their fantastic Webinars :  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=836103.0

Here is some further live links to resources
https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/family-history/family-history-societies
Digitised Australian Joint Copy Project : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829521.0

JM

 
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 01:04 GMT (UK)
Seems the fact that William from the Barwell was around in the 1822 muster rules out the shopkeeper who returned to England in 1818.

There are at least three William Suttons.
  • The convict who came out on the Neptune, Scarborough and Surprize, December 1789
  • The convict who came out on the Barwell in 1795
  • The shopkeeper who returned to England in 1819

.....

At least three .... ummm..... I think there were at least EIGHT by that name in NSW in the decade with Macquarie as Governor (1810-1821) .... as per NSW State Archives and the reliable index for the full set of the Col Sec papers....  1788-1825.
 https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/colonial-secretarys-papers   

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Friday 12 November 21 01:24 GMT (UK)
I know there were a lot more than three but looking at when Sarah was here in 1801, I could only find three. There was another in Tasmania around that time but he seems to have stayed put for some time.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 02:02 GMT (UK)
The family on the Porpoise to Sydney 1800-1 were surnamed SUTTOR, not SUTTON...   

From your opening post you are researching Sarah SUTTON, the lass who married James MURPHY in 1818 at Parramatta ...

From the Col Sec Papers,  have you accessed the actual images on the reels.  I am sure that there are some reels, and some parts of some reels that are not included in the offerings by the subscription commercial family history websites -

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 02:29 GMT (UK)
.....
1810 James and Sarah had a daughter Mary Ann Murphy born on 5 Dec 1810. She was christened on 28 Apr 1811. As she was born out of wedlock and was not registered. She still went by the name Sarah Wilks. ......

NSW BDM online index entry for Mary Ann's baptism is under the family name of WILKES:
1810, Volume 1A,  line 2396, Mary A, daughter of Sarah WILKES. 

You may need to check your REF info on several of your NSW ancestors in that era.  All the Early Church Records held by NSW BDM were indexed at NSW BDM  and include the capital letter V (as in volume) and the year and the line number (of that volume and year).   Volume 1A is C of E. 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 02:43 GMT (UK)
Lachlan Macquarie was the Governor of NSW who set about bringing some order to the administration's paperwork system..    He was Scottish and a military chap (as opposed to a Royal Navy chap) and so he was familiar with the Scottish practice of females not needing to change their surname when marrying.   

You will find that female convicts and female free settlers alike in NSW in the 1810-1821 era were often referred to by the surname they landed with, rather than the surname of any spouse they may have married or formed a relationship with after their arrival.  Newspaper reports from that era sometimes overcame the apparent dilemma by writing up 'society' births as ... the lady of Joe Bloggs was delivered of a ... etc etc etc  and thus avoided using her own surname at all. 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Friday 12 November 21 03:33 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the information. The daughter is good detective work. I missed that one. I think a lot of people who have done family trees were probably confused by the sutton/suttor name too.

At this stage of my family tree history, I am trying to track back to the first direct ancestor to arrive in Australia. So far I have documented about 30 couples e.g parents, grandparents, great grandparents etc. This is one of the messiest ones as there seems to be lots of information that cannot be corroborated. Thanks for your ongoing work, and also the information about interpreting the records. I am learning all the time. Twelve months ago I thought family trees on commercial sites were accurate. Less naive now.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 06:06 GMT (UK)
Sydney Gazette Classified Advertising  14 November 1818 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2178348

A. BYRNE purchased a farm of 200 acres in the Upper Appin district  :) from Sarah WILKES, the daughter of Wm SUTTON.  Wm SUTTON had been granted the land by the Governor.  The farm is next to Delany's Farm.

ADD
St Johns C of E, Parramatta parish register includes the following baptisms. 
Mary Ann, daughter of James MURPHY and Sarah WILKES, born 5 December 1810, baptised 28 April 1811, by Rev Samuel Marsden.
Margarett, daughter of James MURPHY and Sarah WILKES, born 26 February 1813, baptised 28 March 1813, by Rev Samuel Marsden.  (JM notes the ‘double tt’ in Margaret. )
Susannah, daughter of James MURPHEY and Sarah WILKS, born 8 February 1816, baptised 14 December 1817, by Rev Samuel Marsden.  (JM notes the unusual spelling of Murphey, and the dropped ‘e’ in Wilks.)
Catherine, daughter of James and Sarah MURPHEY of Parramatta, born 15 September 1819, baptised 10 September by Rev Joseph KENYON, P.C.

JM
   
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Friday 12 November 21 06:49 GMT (UK)
I had the details from Parramatta in the posts on Sarah. The information on the land sale seems to be a key to what happened to Dad.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 12 November 21 09:20 GMT (UK)
Yes, this is the same advertisement that I noted in reply #5 (though on 7 Nov 1818). I think it reasonable to draw the conclusion that the land was given to the William SUTTON who returned to England earlier that year, hence "late of Sydney".
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Friday 12 November 21 10:31 GMT (UK)
If the shopkeeper William Sutton who returned to England was the father of Sarah, it begs the question of how he got here.  The convict in 1795 was still around in the 1820's, so was her father the convict who came in 1789 or someone else?
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 22:10 GMT (UK)
If the shopkeeper William Sutton who returned to England was the father of Sarah, it begs the question of how he got here.  The convict in 1795 was still around in the 1820's, so was her father the convict who came in 1789 or someone else?


Some thoughts

 :) Have you searched the digitised newspapers/gazette looking for 'Wm. Sutton' and also for 'Mr Sutton' and for 'W. Sutton' as well as 'William Sutton'.  - Can do from your Armchair.

 :) Have you searched for information on the land granted to William Sutton?  It may well include his application which in turn is likely to include his 'Ship of Arrival' and a list of his 'Capital' to support his application.   May need to actually go to NSW State Archives at Kingswood, NSW and research in person.   

 :) As mentioned previously, passenger lists from that era do not reflect the sum total of all passenger movements to and from New South Wales.  So don't get bogged down on not finding a shipping list with his name on it either inbound or outbound.   Here's the NSW State Archives guide on this. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/immigration-shipping-guide   Notice their careful wording includes the following: The earliest departure list is dated 1794 but apart from the Ships musters, 1816-25 (NRS 1289), outward passenger lists were not regularly maintained until 1898.  and We hold records of free settlers from 1792-1922. Most of these records relate to free settlers arriving in Sydney  and Tips to remember Until 1854, many unassisted passengers (particularly steerage passengers) were not listed individually on a passenger list. ​Newspapers for this period (available for searching on the National Library of Australia's Trove website) often reported a ship's arrival and these may contain a list of passengers   Can start this mini project from your Armchair.

And I am sure there were at least EIGHT chaps in NSW in 1818 or thereabouts.

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Friday 12 November 21 22:41 GMT (UK)
Here's eight candidates William SUTTON

1.   Per the Scarborough arriving 28 June 1790, Life Sentence 

2.   Per the Barwell, arriving 18 May 1798, 7 year Sentence:  on Muster 1814, Windsor NSW with Mary Connor, on Muster Sept 1822 at Parramatta; on Muster 1825  at Parramatta.

3.   Per the Elizabeth arriving 5 Oct 1816, Life; in 1821 assigned to Simeon Lord (a significant figure in Sydney Town at that time)

4.   Per the General Stuart arriving 31 December 1818, 7 years; Jan 1819 at Windsor NSW, Sept 1822 still at Windsor

5.   Per the Grenada, arriving 21 October 1819, 14 years; 1819 at Emu Plains NSW, 

6.   OUTWARD Bound, from Sydney to London, former Storekeeper of Sydney, per the David Shaw departing May 1818 – (JM notes see reel 561 at NSW State Archives, Kingswood).

7.   Born in NSW circa 1805, and listed as at Bathurst NSW on 1822 NSW Land records

8.   December 1816 Land at Botany adjoining Dr Robert Townson’s land (JM notes that Dr Townson noted as a Scientist arrived per the Young William)

Once you find some mention in the newspapers and/or archives and/or online trees and/or online digitised images then you may want to determine if you can identify if the info applies to any of the above chaps.   There may of course be other chaps who were also known as William SUTTON ... soldiers, seamen, and mis-transcribed bods too ... SUTTON, SUTTOR, SETTER, etc. etc. etc.

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 00:39 GMT (UK)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD36-1-1p25j2k   This is a live link to the marriage of a Harriet SUTTON and Adolarius William Henry HUMPHREY. 
 
I think this lass was the same lass as referred to in the NSW Col Sec Papers as being the daughter of William SUTTON, the chap appointed as Government Storekeeper whose daughter was in VDL with a Mr Humphrey. 

A chap named William Sutton had written to the Governor desiring that Harriet be returned to her parents in Sydney.  See Col Sec papers INDEX and Reel 6003; 4/3492 pp.25-6.  That William Sutton was noted as ‘former Storekeeper’ and ‘of Sydney’ on that index in Sept 1816, and received grants of land at Minto December 1816.  His ship of arrival may have been noted on the land grant.  Harriet may be a sister/half sister to Sarah WILKES. 

ADD, I think it worthwhile to remember that Sarah WILKS was acting as Agent for William SUTTON from as early as 1814.  - see the Col Sec Papers index - WILKS, Sarah
Agent for William Sutton. ..... between 8 May 1814 and 9 Jan 1819 (Reel 6048; 4/1742 p.63)

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Saturday 13 November 21 01:47 GMT (UK)
Good summary of all the William Suttons. Since Sarah was certainly around with John Wilks in 1805/06, it would be a reasonable assumption William was around too. That eliminates 5 of the 8. The other three are William arriving 1798, William on the Barwick 1795 and the shopkeeper who left in 1818.

Could William from 1798 ended up as a shopkeeper? Perhaps I should be trying to find out what happened to him after he arrived in 1798.

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 02:04 GMT (UK)
.....
1818 James Murphy and Sarah Sutton were married in Sydney on 8 Jun 1818. REF: 2197/1818. William Sutton, the father of Sarah, sailed for England on the ship David Shaw in May 1818 with his wife and daughter Harriet Sutton. ......

and
I haven't found the evidence of the land grant, however this blog suggests that indeed the convict William SUTTON who arrived on the Barwell was given 148 acres of land in 1804.
http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7012.htm

This would tie in with this advertisement in Nov 1818 which says William SUTTON ("late of Sydney") left his land to his daughter Sarah WILKES.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2178319

Not sure about WILKES, as your Sarah is SUTTON in June 1818 when she marries James MURPHY.  :-\

and
Yes, this is the same advertisement that I noted in reply #5 (though on 7 Nov 1818). I think it reasonable to draw the conclusion that the land was given to the William SUTTON who returned to England earlier that year, hence "late of Sydney".

and 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177713 Sydney Gaz 24 Jan 1818, and a Mr Sutton, Pitt Street.
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177817 Sydney Gaz 14 March 1818,  Mrs Sutton, 16 Pitt Street.   
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177887 Sydney Gaz 18 April 1818,  Brick Dwelling house, Mr Sutton, 16 Pitt St  AND in next column from the Postmaster, unclaimed letters etc ... W Sutton....
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177894 Sydney Gaz 18 April 1818
Mr W SUTTON and Family leaving the Colony in the David Shaw, request all Claims against them, (if any) may be presented. And those persons indebted are requested to come forward and settle their Accounts.

and  https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-archive/lema/1818/1818may.html
Wedy. 20. May 1818  ... The Private Merchant Ship David Shaw Commanded by Capt. Ker, sailed late this Evening for England. I gave charge of my Dispatches to Lieut. Mott of the Royal Navy, who is chief officer of this Ship. —I have sent Home Jeremiah OFlynn the Popish Priest by this opportunity. Major Mc.Kenzie of the 46th. Regt. is gone Home as a Passenger in the David Shaw.

Question if I may
Are you certain that the W Sutton and Family were 'YOUR' William and his family...  I have not yet found confirmation that the W in that newspaper cutting of 18 April 1818 was W as in William.  Yes, very likely W was for William ... but ... what if  ...  and where do we know Mrs Sutton's given name, and who were the family members who accompanied W Sutton ... no mention of Mrs A W L Humphrey (formerly Harriet SUTTON of the Derwent), and Sarah WILKES clearly stayed in NSW

JM






Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 02:09 GMT (UK)
Good summary of all the William Suttons. Since Sarah was certainly around with John Wilks in 1805/06, it would be a reasonable assumption William was around too. That eliminates 5 of the 8. The other three are William arriving 1798, William on the Barwick 1795 and the shopkeeper who left in 1818.

Could William from 1798 ended up as a shopkeeper? Perhaps I should be trying to find out what happened to him after he arrived in 1798.

You need to keep all those chaps front and centre in your searchings, so you don't get tempted to put any 'new' clues to one of the THREE you are concentrating on, as though it MUST belong to one of those three.  It could well belong to one of the FIVE you are setting aside.    Many of the newspaper cuttings  have little in the way of identifying which one is which.

How you go about your research is of course your own decision, and how much 'evidence' you need to satisfy yourself for 'proof' is also up to you.  But I can see where some of those online trees may well have huge flaws so in my view it is wise for you to persist with your quest.

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 13 November 21 02:18 GMT (UK)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD36-1-1p25j2k   This is a live link to the marriage of a Harriet SUTTON and Adolarius William Henry HUMPHREY. 
 


That is a good find JM!
Adolarius' 1829 will can be seen here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r1z/

He leaves his estate to his dear wife Harriet.

Lots to read about him on trove, including this short biography:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66015271 (2nd column near the bottom of the page)

It says HUMPHREY's widow married "Mr. Kerr". possibly this marriage in 1831 to John KERR
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r20/
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Saturday 13 November 21 02:22 GMT (UK)
Good question. The family line went on through Margaret Elizabeth Murphy (1813-1875). I have the baptism in Parramatta
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00446?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO658&_phstart=successSource&pId=29225
Harriet of the Derwent was probably the daughter of another convict William Sutton sent to Tasmania. Don't have the details but I did see him during research. He went to Tasmania and stayed. I will go over my notes to see if I can confirm W was William. Unfortunately other family trees can send you down the wrong path.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 13 November 21 02:33 GMT (UK)

Question if I may
Are you certain that the W Sutton and Family were 'YOUR' William and his family...  I have not yet found confirmation that the W in that newspaper cutting of 18 April 1818 was W as in William.  Yes, very likely W was for William ... but ... what if  ...  and where do we know Mrs Sutton's given name, and who were the family members who accompanied W Sutton ... no mention of Mrs A W L Humphrey (formerly Harriet SUTTON of the Derwent), and Sarah WILKES clearly stayed in NSW



I agree, so many points of conjecture.

This snip from the 1818 passenger list for the David Shaw returning to England - William, Ann and Harriett SUTTON.
(So, yes, the Harriet in Tasmania is from a different family.)
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 02:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks for finding that image Maddy.  So onboard the David Shaw there's:
2. Mr William SUTTON former store Keeper at Sydney
3. Mrs Ann SUTTON, wife to above
4. Miss Harriett SUTTON, daughter to above

Umm... who was at 1. ?   

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 13 November 21 02:57 GMT (UK)
I think it says Major John McKENZIE 46 Regt at number 1.  :)
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 04:09 GMT (UK)
Thanks Maddy,  that would match up to the Major in Macquarie's diary.  Shame that that diary  entry does not mention the SUTTON passengers.   :P 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 05:40 GMT (UK)
The SUTTON passengers on that May 1818 trip out of Sydney wwre not part of  the  William SUTTON family per the 1798 Barwell.  The 1814 muster has that 1798 per the Barwell chap with  wife by name of Mary  CONNOR. 

.....
2.   Per the Barwell, arriving 18 May 1798, 7 year Sentence:  on Muster 1814, Windsor NSW with Mary Connor, on Muster Sept 1822 at Parramatta; on Muster 1825  at Parramatta.
......
6.   OUTWARD Bound, from Sydney to London, former Storekeeper of Sydney, per the David Shaw departing May 1818 – (JM notes see reel 561 at NSW State Archives, Kingswood).
.......

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 05:50 GMT (UK)
See the 1828 NSW census, William per the 1798 voyage of the Barwell still with Mary  ;D

JM

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Saturday 13 November 21 06:39 GMT (UK)
Maybe it was the one on the 1789 convict intake.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Saturday 13 November 21 07:57 GMT (UK)
Here is some relevant information on William Sutton convicted in 1789.

He was a Clerk of Exercise who was convicted in the Old Bailey to death for deception and forgery.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t17890708-7-defend103&div=t17890708-7#highlight

On the same day one Edward Glynn was also sentenced to death.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t17890708-7-defend103&div=t17890708-7#highlight

In the transport register of 1789 both names appear together under the same date of conviction. It is probably safe to assume it is the same William convicted for deception and forgery.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1178/images/IMAUS1787C_114258-00023?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=3f701781e023261783d63cb343ad1969&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO971&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=81716

In 1794 a William Sutton was given a conditional pardon. It could not be the second convict as he only arrived on the Barwell in 1795.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1657/images/30515_081757-00038?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=3f701781e023261783d63cb343ad1969&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO973&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=27017

William Sutton appointed Storekeeper and Acting Deputy Commissary at Parramatta in 1800
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228439-00171?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=679240e71ad13cc7b1e9b302bd05a230&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO989&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=193946

It would not be hard to imagine that after a few years in the colony the ex Clerk of Exercise became a storekeeper, and ended up in a government job as Commissary

On Aug 11 1804 a William Sutton received 148 acres at Dundas. I think this has already been noted. Not sure it was the storekeeper.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/5117/images/43255_342854-00081?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=fb01fdbfcdc89a38edc466d3b0eac70f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO979&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=193653

In 1816 William the storekeeper was on a list of people to receive land that year.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228363__0001-00037?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=b6e216d0c0162c1bc85f3c6c985fcad6&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO995&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=122494

Next, I stumbled on this from the Colonial Secretary 1811 that links William the storekeeper with Harriet of the Derwent. I was wrong that she was the daughter of the William Sutton in Tasmania.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228405-00113?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=659232f4758d1adf20c2874154e29033&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO984&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=9659

In 1818 Sarah Wilks is appointed agent to William Sutton to return cattle provided by the government. This would have occurred when he returned to England.
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228450-00065?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=b6e216d0c0162c1bc85f3c6c985fcad6&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO996&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=37404

This seems to tie William the storekeeper, to Sarah Sutton/Wilks/Murphy

Please, if anyone can shoot holes in my chain, please do so. I may have missed something and it is good to have other eyes look at it. The trail seems to be finally coming together with your help.





Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 08:36 GMT (UK)
Sarah WILKS was agent for William as early as 1814.


JM.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 08:49 GMT (UK)
The William and Mary SUTTON in the 1814 muster through to the 1828 census .... they had children together, including a daughter Margaret of a similar age to Margaret Murphy.   So two baby girls named Margaret  :)  I will type up any baptismal records tomorrow OR Monday along with any other archival material from my research on Sydney and surrounds during Macquarie's reign.  I have several archival boxes full of copy and draft notes at hand.  Just waiting for natural light and clear study table to re-visit contents. 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 13 November 21 09:01 GMT (UK)
Various reports of the trial of William SUTTON in 1789 in the newspapers. He was sentenced to death in July, but was "respited" in October 1789 (" ... who had been capitally convicted at former sessions, were put to the bar, and received his majesty's pardon, on condition of being transported for their natural lives")
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=s17891028-1

I note in the Old Bailey transcript William says he has a wife and 4 children.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 09:04 GMT (UK)
Those ancestry images are likely to be  selected from the NSW  State Archives images from the reels of film of the Col Sec Papers, indexed some decades ago, but likely copyright held by NSW government..

JM.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 09:05 GMT (UK)
Wife and Four children by 1789
....  well found Maddy. 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 09:21 GMT (UK)
I have just been speaking with my cousin, a retired Archivist originally involved in the transfer of the NSW Archives from the State Library when it was hived off into its own authority..   He was involved in setting up the Kingswood facilities....

The commercial family history websites have, in his view, 'cherry picked' through the Archives, and only uploaded enough material over the years  to keep members paying subscriptions annually.  So each year, they upload a bit more ... The material held on shelving (and not on film on reels) at the Kingswood facility will likely include ship of arrival noted on Macquarie era land grants, and native place, capital of each person receiving a grant, a full description of the land etc.   In other words, sufficient info to identify family groupings.  He will go over this thread tomorrow. 

JM.
.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Saturday 13 November 21 09:23 GMT (UK)
Know of Edward 1780, Sarah 1788, Harriet 1790 and Mary 1791. Not sure what became of Mary. Edward might have decided to stay in England but Mary was very young. Great spotting Maddy about the 4 children.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Saturday 13 November 21 12:02 GMT (UK)
The National Archives has the following: "Letter from William Hayward of Fenchurch Street, London, enclosing and recommending the petition of William Sutton, a prisoner in Newgate whose death sentence had been respited and who awaited transportation to Botany Bay, asking to be allowed to transport himself for life, so that he could provide for his wife and 4 children" 11 Nov 1789

The full file can be downloaded for free, but the preview is readable here (starts at image 390 of 488):
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1905634
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 12:39 GMT (UK)
Well found, Jomot.

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 13 November 21 19:04 GMT (UK)
Know of Edward 1780, Sarah 1788, Harriet 1790 and Mary 1791. Not sure what became of Mary. Edward might have decided to stay in England but Mary was very young. Great spotting Maddy about the 4 children.

Unlikely to be the family of the William SUTTON who was convicted in 1789, as his 4 children must have been born before July 1789.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Saturday 13 November 21 21:38 GMT (UK)
Yes, :)  it is so  important to positively eliminate a candidate, 

I will be going through some of my NSW bdm Early Church Records of marriages .... looking at witnesses .... often these are connected to either bride or groom,  :)  ....

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Sunday 14 November 21 00:06 GMT (UK)
Maybe Harriet in 1790 could have been his. Harriet of the Derwent. Mary may have been another father after William had gone. She may have stayed with her father in England as only Sarah and Harriet came with Ann to Australia. The other thing I thought was odd was the gap between Edward and Sarah. Eight years between the two and only two years to Harriet. Perhaps there was another child in that eight year gap. Not sure how we could ever find out.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 00:09 GMT (UK)
It doesn't add to anything, but Sarah is also in the 1841 census at Parramatta as Sarah Skawler.

I think this is a vital piece of the jigsaw.

A marriage for a Margaret CONNOR, and look at one of the witnesses !

Back now, with my transcription of a marriage.

25 July 1836, St Matthews C of E Windsor, by the Rev Henry T STILES.   Joseph PUDDY of this parish and Margaret CONNOR of this parish, married by Banns with consent of the Governor.  Witness Richard CLARK of South Creek and Sarah SKELTIN of South Creek.   All four signed with their respective x marks. 

I think Sarah SKELTIN of South Creek is same person as Jomot noticed as Sarah SKAWLER.    I think this Sarah is the Sarah we have noted as Sarah WILKES/WILKS and Sarah MURPHY and as the lass with a maiden name of SUTTON, and likely the daughter of William SUTTON of this thread's topic heading. 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Sunday 14 November 21 01:01 GMT (UK)
Sarah Murphy married Henry Schooler in 1824. REF: 3296/1824   3298/1824 Henry was also a convict having arrived on the Fortune in July 1806.

In 1828 she was included in the census living at Parramatta
Murphy, Sarah, came free, Porpoise, 1799, wife of Henry Schwoles, Parramatta
Murphy, Mary Ann, 1808, born in the colony
Murphy, Margaret, 1814, born in the colony
Murphy, Susan, 1817, born in the colony
Murphy, Catherine, 1819, born in the colony children of Sarah Murphy, Parramatta
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525

In 1845 she made a land claim. It reads:
"Sarah Schooler or Scowler (formerly Murphy) of Parramatta. widow....."
So Sarah was a Murphy, and her surname of Schooler was also spelt Scowler.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12880698?searchTerm=sarah%20schooler

It seems there was some difficulty getting the name consistent so Skawler, Schooler, Scowler could all have been the same person.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 01:15 GMT (UK)
Sarah Murphy married Henry Schooler in 1824. REF: 3296/1824   3298/1824 Henry was also a convict having arrived on the Fortune in July 1806.

In 1828 she was included in the census living at Parramatta
Murphy, Sarah, came free, Porpoise, 1799, wife of Henry Schwoles, Parramatta
Murphy, Mary Ann, 1808, born in the colony
Murphy, Margaret, 1814, born in the colony
Murphy, Susan, 1817, born in the colony
Murphy, Catherine, 1819, born in the colony children of Sarah Murphy, Parramatta
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525

In 1845 she made a land claim. It reads:
"Sarah Schooler or Scowler (formerly Murphy) of Parramatta. widow....."
So Sarah was a Murphy, and her surname of Schooler was also spelt Scowler.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12880698?searchTerm=sarah%20schooler

It seems there was some difficulty getting the name consistent so Skawler, Schooler, Scowler could all have been the same person.

Hi there,

Yes, and that is not eliminating her as formerly WILKES or nee SUTTON.

JM 

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 01:54 GMT (UK)
A quick ‘snapshot’ of Henry SKOOLER
1814, he is in the Brisbane Waters district, he is partnered with Eleanor CONNOR per the Experiment of 1809. 
1818 he is sent from Newcastle to Port Macquarie.
1825 he is in the Parramatta district, free by servitude, and a landholder
1828 November Census: 
He is aged 63, a labourer and householder in the Parramatta district, and also in the household are:
His wife, Sarah, aged 40, *** who arrived per the Porpoise 1801 and her children :
Philip MURPHY aged 7, Born in the Colony and Catherine MURPHY aged 9, Born in the Colony

Notice that the 1828 census document records Sarah as arriving per the Porpoise 1801.  The recorder was a John BROWN, constable.

May I mention that those NSWBDM reference numbers cited for Henry’s and Sarah’s 1824 marriage actually follow the usual ECR pattern displayed at the NSW BDM online index and include not just a line number/year but actually need to include the ‘V’ and its actual Volume number.   

ADD two items.... firstly a snip for the NSW BDM reference numbers and secondly *** a snip showing Sarah's age as recorded on one of the 1828 census versions - does that read 46 !

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 02:08 GMT (UK)
A marriage register (or umm, several) has long been known to be missing from St Johns C of E, Parramatta.   I do not have a transcription including witnesses, nor the status of the bride or groom (widow/spinster or widow/bachelor), nor if either could sign or if they made their mark …  but I can confirm that that the Kerrison James Index has the following info:
Henry SCHOOLER and Sarah MURPHY married 23 February 1824 at St Johns, Parramatta. 
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856
and
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-guide

Also re the 1828 Census – see the threads:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=732779.0  and
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810812.0

ADD
a) Re Philip MURPHY.
A baptism at per St John’s C of E, Parramatta.
Philip, son of George PEMBER and Sarah MURPHEY of Parramatta, was born 25 August 1821 and baptised 25 May 1822 by Rev Thomas HASSALL.
and
b) Re James MURPHEY.   From St John’s C of E, burials.
James MURPHEY aged 51 years, was buried 7 September 1820 at Parramatta by the Rev Joseph KENYON.


JM

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Sunday 14 November 21 09:41 GMT (UK)
Just a cross reference. On page 2 of this post I outlined the history of Sarah including the four husband/partners John Wilks, James Murphy, George Pember and Henry Schooler. Children were:

Sarah with John Wilks:
•   Harriet Wilks (1806-)
•   William Wilks (1808-1811)

Sarah with James Murphy:
•   Mary Ann Murphy (1810-1838) - Weatherall
•   Margaret Elizabeth Murphy (1813-1887) - Woodward
•   Susannah Murphy (1816-1884) - Magill
•   Catherine Murphy (1819-1876) - Stedman

Sarah with George Pember:
•   Phillip Pember (1821-1852)
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 11:18 GMT (UK)
Just a cross reference. On page 2 of this post I outlined the history of Sarah including the four husband/partners John Wilks, James Murphy, George Pember and Henry Schooler. Children were:

Sarah with John Wilks:
•   Harriet Wilks (1806-)
•   William Wilks (1808-1811)

Sarah with James Murphy:
•   Mary Ann Murphy (1810-1838) - Weatherall
•   Margaret Elizabeth Murphy (1813-1887) - Woodward
•   Susannah Murphy (1816-1884) - Magill
•   Catherine Murphy (1819-1876) - Stedman

Sarah with George Pember:
•   Phillip Pember (1821-1852)

 :)  starting at the end of that post ....  NSW BDM has the burial as 1852 and as Volume 118, line 985,  and as Phillip MURPHY., aged 29.   

JM.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 21:24 GMT (UK)
Attaching snip of part of a baptism record from St Johns C of E at Parramatta. 

I am doubting that Sarah's son, Phillip, was known by the surname PEMBER. 

It is possible that the burial reference is NOT for Sarah's son, but on the other hand, it may well be him, it is indexed with the year as 1852.   
.... NSW BDM has the burial as 1852 and as Volume 118, line 985,  and as Phillip MURPHY, aged 29.   

I can see on the NSW Coroner's Index that it has, in 1853, at item 7063,  listed a Phillip MURPHY, accidently Killed and that locality is likely to read 'South Creek' although Ancestry seem to have transcribed it as .... Lomsh Creek.  ::)  There is a date of 8 January (1853) associated with that entry, and the outcome of L C North's inquiry is dated 25 January 1853.   

I rarely suggest anyone seeks to obtain a copy of the Early Church Records of the NSW BDM.   They are scant on family history.    But an official transcription of the 1852 document will include the date of burial and the cemetery and the denomination, and that info may lead to searching within that cemetery for his mother, and hopefully take our OP to Sarah.

South Creek, the locality, is a former name for Rev Marsden's landholding at Mamre, near St Marys near to the NSW State Archives facilities at Kingswood.  South Creek, the water course, flows through today's St Marys and enters the Hawkesbury River near Windsor.  landholders in the early to mid 1800s would refer to South Creek in a broad sense, so quite a large district, from say Narellan, through Badgery's Creek,  St Marys, and onward north to Windsor.   

JM   
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Sunday 14 November 21 22:12 GMT (UK)
Where on the image you have linked to support the notion that Sarah and her daughters are in Parramatta with her husband Henry, umm .... where does it actually show you and all of those following your thread ... errr ....  that Mary Ann, or Margaret or Susan were living with Sarah (their mother) and her then husband Henry.  I agree it lists Catherine.  I have already posted a snip showing Henry and Sarah with Catherine Murphy and Phillip Murphy.  I note that the image has the Porpoise as arriving 1801, not 1799.

JM

.....
In 1828 she was included in the census living at Parramatta
Murphy, Sarah, came free, Porpoise, 1799, wife of Henry Schwoles, Parramatta
Murphy, Mary Ann, 1808, born in the colony
Murphy, Margaret, 1814, born in the colony
Murphy, Susan, 1817, born in the colony
Murphy, Catherine, 1819, born in the colony children of Sarah Murphy, Parramatta
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525
/quote]

 
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 15 November 21 02:55 GMT (UK)
Maybe Harriet in 1790 could have been his. Harriet of the Derwent. Mary may have been another father after William had gone. She may have stayed with her father in England as only Sarah and Harriet came with Ann to Australia. The other thing I thought was odd was the gap between Edward and Sarah. Eight years between the two and only two years to Harriet. Perhaps there was another child in that eight year gap. Not sure how we could ever find out.

I really think you need to reconsider the information I'm guessing has come from other family trees about the family of William SUTTON.

As has been discovered here, there are a few possibilities for the father of Sarah, and if you do decide that her father is the man who was convicted in 1789 at the Old Bailey then that limits his 4 children to being born before that date.

I'm not sure how you can be sure there was an Edward or a Mary?

You have mentioned a baptism of Sarah at Stepney in 1789 (reply #11), this family William SUTTON, smith, and Ann of White Row, also have a son baptised in 1791, so her father is clearly not the 1789 convict either. You need to start with the information of which you are sure and then work backwards.  :)

JM's find on the census that Sarah's age looks like 46 in 1828 is an excellent find! as I haven't seen any other sources with a possible year of birth for her?
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Monday 15 November 21 03:33 GMT (UK)
I will try and answer a few questions raised in the last few posts.

Quote
Where on the image you have linked to support the notion that Sarah and her daughters are in Parramatta with her husband Henry

This is the source. Not sure how reliable it is.
https://australianroyalty.net.au/tree/purnellmccord.ged/individual/I30642/Catherine-Murphy

Quote
I'm not sure how you can be sure there was an Edward or a Mary?
You are absolutely correct. That information comes from other trees and I cannot find any corroboration.

Quote
You have mentioned a baptism of Sarah at Stepney in 1789 (reply #11), this family William SUTTON, smith, and Ann of White Row, also have a son baptised in 1791, so her father is clearly not the 1789 convict either. You need to start with the information of which you are sure and then work backwards.

I agree. Once again, relying on other trees without corroboration.

Quote
JM's find on the census that Sarah's age looks like 46 in 1828 is an excellent find! as I haven't seen any other sources with a possible year of birth for her?
Agree. That would make her year of birth 1782. When William was convicted she was only 7. When she had a son William Wilkes in 1808, she would have been 26.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 03:46 GMT (UK)
So in fact you do NOT have Sarah on a 1828 NSW Census listing under SCHWOLES or with her daughters:  Mary Ann,  Margaret, or Susan.  The link you gave is clearly for Sarah with Henry Schooler and  Catherine and Phillip (her daughter and son).

.....
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525
....

JM  ADD  ... See my reply #68 and the attachment there, it is sourced from familysearch using a live link I provided earlier in this thread. (further add,  see #69).
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 03:55 GMT (UK)
I will try and answer a few questions raised in the last few posts.

Quote
Where on the image you have linked to support the notion that Sarah and her daughters are in Parramatta with her husband Henry

This is the source. Not sure how reliable it is.
https://australianroyalty.net.au/tree/purnellmccord.ged/individual/I30642/Catherine-Murphy
....
     

That is a new link, and it is a submitted tree.   The link I questioned in your post is to  Ancestry.   
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Monday 15 November 21 04:13 GMT (UK)
I'm getting a little lost, so apologies if this has been posted/referenced already, but the attached shows Sarah Murphy of the Porpoise "wife of Henry Schooler" along with her daughters Mary Ann, Margaret, Susan & Catherine (Murphy).  The archive reference on the image is H10/20, which is the 1825 muster. 

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 04:17 GMT (UK)
Thanks Jomot,   that's a huge sighting, the 1825 Muster.   Many thanks.

Also many thanks Maddy,  I was starting to doubt own eyes,  I do think that could be 46 on that 1828 Census.

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Monday 15 November 21 04:19 GMT (UK)
But just to confuse things, the 1828 muster (HO10/26) has Sarah as aged 40, whereas the census says 46:

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 04:23 GMT (UK)
Agh,  Jomot ... the NSW admin system can even in 2021 make some excellent blunderings,  I can trace their blunderings and scribble and mis-spellings all the way back through some of my NSW ancestors generations - those mis-stepped efforts can back to umm.... well .... umm .... 1790s.

JM  ADD ... NSW admin 2021 can even at senior levels mis-read COMPUTER GENERATED accounting figures .... I write it in words ...  three million dollars or thirty million dollars ....
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 05:11 GMT (UK)
 :)  I wonder why the young lad, Philip Murphy, was not recorded with his mum on that 1825 Muster.

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Monday 15 November 21 05:39 GMT (UK)
:)  I wonder why the young lad, Philip Murphy, was not recorded with his mum on that 1825 Muster.

I don't know, but what really puzzles me is this one, which also has the archive reference HO10/20 (ie 1825) and lists Mary Ann, Margaret, Susannah, Catherine & Phillip as the children of William Sutton of Parramatta, and implies that he was the man on the Barwell ???   Sarah is also listed, as Sarah Sutton of the Porpoise, widow of Parramatta.

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 05:56 GMT (UK)
 ;D

Yes,  well .... that's another typical  :P official record.   

JM.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 06:04 GMT (UK)
I think that's possibly Geo SUTTOR at Bathurst. Geo and his wife, Sarah,  arrived on the Porpoise !  Came Free, 

JM

Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 15 November 21 09:25 GMT (UK)
Just as an aside ... I have been looking in the English papers to see if there was any mention of Mr SUTTON on his return via the David Shaw. (No luck I'm afraid.) I discovered though that they had bad weather and the voyage took 17 weeks to the Cape of Good Hope and 6 months all up. "She laid-to off St Helena, and was informed that BONAPARTE still continued sick and sulky." (Wednesday,  Nov. 18, 1818 Publication: Morning Post)

(I recently read the Thomas Keneally novel that deals with this - "Napoleon's Last Island".   :D )
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: Jomot on Monday 15 November 21 12:08 GMT (UK)
I think that's possibly Geo SUTTOR at Bathurst. Geo and his wife, Sarah,  arrived on the Porpoise !  Came Free, 

Possibly, although there is a listing on the previous page of Mrs Sutter wife of George, Porpoise 1802, came free (along with George Sutter, Landholder, Parramatta, plus children Cordelia, Sarah & Charles).

On the same page that I attached - showing Sarah Sutton as a widow and Philip etc as children of William - there is also an entry for George SUTTON of the Porpoise, 1800, Landholder, Bathurst along with SM Sutton wife of Geo Sutton, Bathurst.  Both came free.

All in all, its a bit of a mess!
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Monday 15 November 21 20:58 GMT (UK)
Re 1825 Muster....  it was actually a complied list encompassing several immediately prior musters.
See several reliable Guides including :
NSW State Archives https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/census-musters-guide
And : http://carolbaxter.com/family_history_hints/errors-in-original-records-nsw-colonial-musters


I have previously mentioned the  Australian Joint Copying Project which is now digitised and readily available from your armchair at no charge,  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829521.0   so perhaps I should also add the following - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Joint_Copying_Project  and https://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/australian-joint-copying-project-handbook-1  and the digitised copy of that handbook: https://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-396880406/view?partId=nla.obj-396998862

So basically there is info to be found in the '1825' musters, but often it is not as reliable a family history buff may expect to draw out of official records.

ADD  oops,  nearly forgot .... This is a great webinar :
 https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/webinars/webinar-tracing-nsw-convicts

FURTHER ADD ... ABGR now known as BDA ...  there is a nominal subscription annually for that NON-profit project,  but you can search the indexes for free : https://www.bda-online.org.au/

 ....    Here is a link to one of their informative pdfs https://www.bda-online.org.au/files/MC1825_Muster.pdf 


JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:48 GMT (UK)
I get the feeling we are running out of leads on this query. We seem to have exhausted all avenues. Do you agree it is time to close it off?
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 07:03 GMT (UK)
I get the feeling we are running out of leads on this query. We seem to have exhausted all avenues. Do you agree it is time to close it off?

No,  but I think it is time to undertake research rather than rely on looking up images on commercial family history websites.   There are many archival resources freely available online, that anyone can access from their armchair.    The AJCP,  Sands NSW directories, Civil county and parish maps,  or if you have inclination, go visit the State Library in Sydney CBD, or State Archives at Kingswood or Parramatta History centre,   plenty of staff or volunteers there willing and knowledgeable and available no charge. 

JM.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Tuesday 16 November 21 08:08 GMT (UK)
Actually that is where I started. I had done many hours of online research before we started. I used online trees as a starting point but mainly used BDM and Ancestry Library. In the last year I have accumulated about 20 online resources - many through help of people such as you on Rootchat. I think I will now spend a few hours going through all these comments and see what I can put together as a document on William Sutton. I will also go through the 30+ pages of information I have accumulated on Sarah and check for any errors although I think I am about 90% right on that document.

Would be grateful for any other specific sources you might recommend.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 21:58 GMT (UK)
Actually that is where I started. I had done many hours of online research before we started. I used online trees as a starting point but mainly used BDM and Ancestry Library. In the last year I have accumulated about 20 online resources - many through help of people such as you on Rootchat. I think I will now spend a few hours going through all these comments and see what I can put together as a document on William Sutton. I will also go through the 30+ pages of information I have accumulated on Sarah and check for any errors although I think I am about 90% right on that document.

Would be grateful for any other specific sources you might recommend.

Hi there,

Thank you for sharing how you have approached your family history efforts. 

Perhaps because I came to family history quite some decades ago, and long before the internet, and commercial family history websites, I seem to have a different understanding of the concept of 'research'.  I am of the firm belief that family history research is far more than searching through online 'resources' (including online trees) and far far more than looking up/through indexes or digitised records shared online or even going to institutions providing access to their archival material for you to photograph or arrange photocopy etc or by interviewing to obtain oral history ... and so on and etc ....   

To me research is about analysing the items that have been found by searching or looking up or reading/hearing about ....    So analysing something found in someone's online tree is about appreciating it is someone's else's 'research' and their efforts may not have been through any analysing at all.    Analysing ... as in scrutinising every minute aspect - the 'how, when, where, what, why and who' of the document/image/report/artefact/ ....   

If I may indulge a tad further by explaining how I could validate in this current century my own research undertaken in the 1960s for one of my NSW families who had arrived during the reign of Lachlan Macquarie (yes, I use colourful words, for he reigned, absolutely!).  So my starting point would be the family Bible entry, giving me date of baptism.   I could then look up the NSW BDM online Births index and compare it with the familysearch organisations online records search (NOT the family trees on there, not the ancestry or find my past family trees) and then I could look at any transcription that may be at the Biographical Database of Australia.   So that would be providing three or four SECONDARY sources to confirm that a baby's baptism is recorded in the C of E register of St Philip's, Sydney.   The PRIMARY source being the family Bible which in fact shows baby was baptised by Wesleyan rites and the summary information about that ceremony was then transmitted to St Philips C of E, in Sydney.
     
So far, all I have described is 'search and find' ... to me that is not research.  I have not yet started analysing those records.   And I am well aware that there's scant family history info on baptismal records to 'join the dots' to 'prove' I am a descendant of that baby.  I need to keep good notes, citing properly and keep an open mind. 

But ... bear with me ... the researching on that baptism was easy ... I knew (from previous experience and from reliable rellies too) that the Sydney Gazette was accessable via the Mitchell Library Reading Rooms (that's how it was known, its part of the State Library, Sydney CBD, Macquarie St etc)...  So I spent many hours/days across several months, reading - looking for Macquarie's general orders re Baptisms and Burials. 

Here's one of the digitised articles
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628068 Sydney Gaz 15 Sept 1810.  So the NSW Chaplains were responsible for receiving transmitted records about all the baptisms and burials in the then NSW territories from 1 January 1810 to 30 Sept 1810, and recording them. -  In a later issue of the Gazette there's a news item giving details of the birth of my ancestor and the government official's name and title (ADDING, the father of baby).   

Using that concept of research and devising your own way of seeking out to whatever depth/standard you choose, is of course your choice.   

I fully support your desire to learn about all your first migrating families to NSW.  It is a hobby that will last your lifetime, and which you can encourage others in your family to contribute to, and to start researching themselves for their offspring to enjoy too.

JM  FURTHER ADD :  The Advanced Search option at bda may well help you to construct a 2021 version of a partial passenger list of those who are recorded on Musters and through to the 1828 census as arriving in NSW per the Porpoise in 1800.   That may help you with your Sarah SUTTON. 
 
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 23:20 GMT (UK)
....
Would be grateful for any other specific sources you might recommend.

 :) According to the internet, Cyndi's list was last updated 16 October 2021
https://www.cyndislist.com/australia/  and that leads to NSW : https://www.cyndislist.com/australia/states/nsw/  The headings on that list are in an Alphabetical order, so Ancestry is ''first" and I notice that it lists the Original Source - yes, the NSW State Archives at Kingswood. 

 :) https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/New_South_Wales,_Australia_Genealogy

 :) https://www.bda-online.org.au/

 :) https://www.sag.org.au/

 :)  https://www.naa.gov.au/help-your-research

 :) https://www.nla.gov.au/

 :) https://www.cityofparramatta.nsw.gov.au/visiting/history/parramatta-heritage-visitor-information-centre

 :) https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/

 :) https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/

That's a start  :) 

JM
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Wednesday 17 November 21 04:17 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the input. You are right when you say it is a lifetime quest to put the story of our past together. Most of my work was done during Covid so I was totally reliant on the Internet. I decided to go for breadth before depth. I wanted to go back through all the people who had a "grandparent" in their relationship to me.

My reasoning was that I thought I could probably get 70% of the information with a minimal amount of knowledge about what I was doing, but would need to learn a lot more to get the remaining 30% of available history. I guess this variation of the 80:20 rule applies to effort as well. The remaining 30% of history will take 70% of the time.

There were a few surprises. Some family stories passed down were wrong, or information was missing. An Aboriginal heritage was never mentioned by anyone. Probably not something to be spoken about in decades past. Even my own father (born 1916) turned out to have aspects of his life I was not aware of. I found 18 convicts who were direct ancestors so have certainly learned much about what information is available on convicts.

Unfortunately I left it too late to start this project as only my generation remains. Parents, uncles and aunts have all passed on. Even the few cousins I have are severely depleted.

I will go through the links you have provided. Although I have stumbled across a few online sources, I still rely heavily on Ancestory, BDM and Trove. I take your point about research being more than just gathering  information including other trees. My approach has been to document what I find and try to identify if it is factual backed up by a source, or unverified. In the process I have been able to eliminate quite a few bits of information on other websites, and put together various pieces of research to reach a different conclusion. Sometimes I feel I should have a board like in a TV murder mystery to link bits together.

I have about 10% of your knowledge on how to research family history and I am grateful for not only the information you have discovered on William Sutton, but for the lessons you have provided on HOW to find the information. That is more valuable than the new facts. Finally, it is the RootChat forum that has been my "go to" place when I have reached a dead end (excuse the pun) in research using my limited knowledge.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Thursday 25 November 21 07:04 GMT (UK)
Just when I thought this was over, some new information, or at least a new theory. It is regarding the Harriet Sutton who left with William and Ann in 1818 for England on the David Shaw. I now think it is their granddaughter rather than daughter.

Daughter Harriet eloped with Mr Humphrey in 1806. At some stage they went to Tasmania and in 1811 in the Colonial Secretary's Papers there was a letter requesting her return. It mentioned she was with Mr Humphrey and she was the daughter of William Sutton the storekeeper. This ties the three people together.

https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228405-00113?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=659232f4758d1adf20c2874154e29033&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO984&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=9659 (https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228405-00113?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=659232f4758d1adf20c2874154e29033&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO984&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=9659)

Adolarius William Henry Humphrey married Harriet on 28 Aug 1812 in Hobart.
https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1780&h=368669&tid=&pid=&queryId=a2e5dda603cf4ad4742323ffdbd6f43a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO1035&_phstart=successSource (https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1780&h=368669&tid=&pid=&queryId=a2e5dda603cf4ad4742323ffdbd6f43a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO1035&_phstart=successSource)

He went on to be a magistrate and Superintendent of Police before dying in 1827. Harriet married John Kerr in 1831.
https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1780&h=368582&tid=&pid=&queryId=a0ac8bfcc9388fe3ddf5c032eeeda9a7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO1042&_phstart=successSource (https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1780&h=368582&tid=&pid=&queryId=a0ac8bfcc9388fe3ddf5c032eeeda9a7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO1042&_phstart=successSource)

It seemed unlikely daughter Harriet returned to England with her parents in 1818 then came back to Australia. On the other hand, William and Ann's daughter Sarah also had a daughter Harriet in 1806 with John Wilks. When William and Ann returned to England Harriet would have been 12 and given the progression of men in Sarah's life, and the fact their daughter Harriet had run away, the parents may have thought it better to take Harriet back to England.

I have searched for mention of Sarah's daughter Harriet past 1818 and can find no record of her. It seems likely she was the Miss Harriet Sutton on the David Shaw in May 1818. The other Harriet was married in Tasmania in 1812 and was no longer Miss Sutton.
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: majm on Thursday 25 November 21 23:32 GMT (UK)
Hi Neville,

Perhaps I have not placed sufficient importance in my previous posts on your threads and on threads that others start regarding the lack extant records for NSW family history in the early years from first settlement to say the NSW 1828 Census.  Even that census is likely to have missed many families. 

But significantly, in my view, until you have joined the dots from you back to your William SUTTON, you are umm.... basically ... umm.... simply speculating that any of the SUTTON family departing NSW in May 1818 per the David Shaw are your ancestors.     

May I assure you that there are many NSW centric family history buffs whose research extends way deeper than online images found of public records held at NSW State Archives.  Even those who confine themselves to NSW State Archives delve much deeper than the NSW Col Sec Papers, or the Musters, or the 1828 Census.     Then there's the resources at the NSW State Library.  Then there's the resources at the NSW City of Sydney Archives.   Then there's the resources at the Society of Genealogists.   

Have you sought to locate any Family Bibles in your NSW ancestors born in say the 1800s ... the front sections of those often have the Baptism info for the children and grandchildren born of the original owner of that rather large, leather bound book.   Do you have copy of private correspondence between NSW family and their cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents back in Britain, giving news of births, marriages, deaths, employment opportunities, then current addresses ....

In my view, the Macquarie era 1810-1821 and the Bigge 'Royal Commission' were not really interested in recording the personal/identifying/sensitive information for those who arrived in NSW who were NOT under a sentence of a civil court.  In my view, there's scant information for those who 'came free' unless they were public figures.  In my view, there's little or NO extant public records of perhaps most of the 'came free' females - whether came as babes in arms of their convict mum, or as children of a garrison soldier, or as children of free settlers. 

On the other hand, it is of course within your own remit to decide: how you know if you are a descendant of any deceased person; how you share that knowledge; who you share it with; when you share it; why you share it and where you share it.    So I am hoping you are not setting aside all the searching you have already done.   I am just perhaps being pedantic and hoping that you will consider undertaking 'real research'.   

I assure you that there is something very special in being handed a file you have ordered (no charge !) at the NSW Archives, to sit, alone, and then, on working your way through it to come across the actual signatures of your Great Great Great Great Grandfather, and two of his grandchildren on an official document, when you have known, per oral history only, for over fifty years that two of your own given names are for those two grandchildren.  That's research - not a fluke, not a tip from an online index or image, but solid research through deeds, private family papers, Mitchell Library, State Library, SAG, talking with ancient living rellies, reading my own notes from the 1960s and then ..... - finally confidentially 'knowing' which document that chap and his two grandchildren MAY have signed as witnesses to a possible incident in the lives of their then neighbours and that those neighbours DID take legal action against the perpetrator who may have been a 'jolly jumbuck'.   

I cannot confirm or contradict your thesis that William SUTTON per the David Shaw ex Sydney 1818 was the grandfather of Harriet, or that Harriet's mother was William's daughter or that that daughter was the mother of Philip MURPHY who died aged 29 .... but I can say 'Persist, keep searching, start researching - the thrill of the chase etc. 

:D Look deeper to see if there is proof that you have definitely found all the SUTTON residents in NSW in the Macquarie era. Join all the dots - carefully, accurately and then smile.

JM   
Title: Re: Which William Sutton
Post by: NevilleTB on Friday 26 November 21 02:59 GMT (UK)
I agree with what you say. It can be a never ending task to uncover the detail and sometimes blow up the big picture.

I am convinced there is enough proof that William the shopkeeper was the father of Sarah Sutton who married James Murphy. There is also a reference to William the shopkeeper on the log of the David Shaw so I think that link is established. I now have confirmed Harriet as William's daughter and married to Mr Humphrey in Tasmania. I know Harriet remarried after Adolarius died and stayed in Tasmania. All that leaves a high probability that the Harriet traveling to England was Sarah's daughter.

I think there is enough fact to confirm the four husbands/partners of Sarah and resultant children. There may have been more that I have not found. Beyond that, much of the information is probable, but needs to be more thoroughly confirmed.

As I mentioned earlier I wanted to go wide rather than deep with the tree initially and then take time to dig down on particular people. I have almost completed the wide scan. One more couple to investigate and the broad picture will be in place. I will then spend time digging down on each of the people and do a considerable amount of searching away from the Internet. The benefit of this approach is that it has been a learning experience for me as to how to do the research. I know I am only at the beginning of developing those skills and as I do further research, and ask questions of people far more skilled than I, I will become more proficient.