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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Thursday 11 November 21 22:16 GMT (UK)

Title: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 11 November 21 22:16 GMT (UK)
This is supposedly the marriage of Claude Barthelemy Bertolle and Madelaine Duvivier in 1686, from a transcribed list of the thousands and thousands of births, marriages and deaths at Montreuil sur mer.

There is a document from 1735, in PAris, that lists a Claude Barthelemy Bertolle married to Madelaine Duvivier, but not when or where the marriage took place, although I do know they went to Paris from Montreuil sur mer.

I can see what appears to be 'Bertelemy Bertolle', and 'Madelaine du vivier'.
I'm finding it difficult to see that word before 'Barthelemy' as 'Claude'.  :-\
He seems to sign Bertaule?

I think it starts:
apres la publica(ci)on de bans de mariage ? bertelemy
bertolle de la pariosse de St lau   ?    ?
de ? et Madelaine de vivier de cette parroisse......


I'd be very grateful if anyone can fill in any of the blanks.
Thank you
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: GR2 on Friday 12 November 21 10:43 GMT (UK)
I think the mystery word in the first line is entre = between.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 12 November 21 20:27 GMT (UK)
Thanks GR 2. You could well be right.

I wish I could make out what parish he was from. It doesn't look like any of the other churches in Montreuil, so it may give me a clue as to where he came from.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: Zefiro on Friday 12 November 21 21:08 GMT (UK)
I think the groom came from Bodemont (it's clearly written in the margin), although I can't read the words following Saint Laurend. This city is now called Baudemont, (Département: Saône-et-Loire). If this is the correct place of origin, it means more than 600 km to Montreuil and 400 km to Paris.

There is a date in this document: the bans on 16th October 1685 and the marriage on 5th November 1685.

Apres la publica(ti)on des bans de mariage entre Bertelemy
Bertolle de la paroisse de S(ain)t Laurend
de Bodemont et Madelaine du Vivie de cette paroisse et
en operation de l'ordonnance par ... de mons(ieu)r
l'official d'... en datte du seizieme d'octobre
---
---
---signé le
cinquieme jour de novembre mil six cent quatre
vingt cinq
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 12 November 21 22:12 GMT (UK)
Gosh thanks Zefiro.

The entry above it has been written, with  a lot in the margin, and then all crossed out, so it's difficult to see if Bartelemy's name is even mentioned in it.
I suppose it wasn't unheard of to travel - but 600 kms does seem quite a long way!
I wonder why he went to Montreuil sur mer. He is given as an 'innkeeper' a year later on his son's baptism.
There don't seem to be any Bertolle's prior to him in the Montreuil registers, but there is a big family of Du viviers. Perhaps he met Anne somewhere else, and they decided to go and live in Montreuil.
How interesting.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: Zefiro on Saturday 13 November 21 14:15 GMT (UK)
Can you post (or provide a link to) the crossed out entry?
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 13 November 21 15:17 GMT (UK)
I'm very intrigued by what comes between "St Laurend" and "de Bodemont" and also after "l'official" as I think there are other important clues as to the origin of Claude Bertaule, but, unfortunately I can't make much of it out.  I wonder what the "ordonnance" could be about too.

Looking at the "signatures", I think on the left there is the mark of Anne Daire (?) "mere de lad(ite)
espouzée".  Intrerestingly the priest seems to have called the bride Marguerite when indicating her mark!
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 13 November 21 16:10 GMT (UK)
Zooming in on the entry on the AD 62 site:

https://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/v2/ad62/visualiseur/etat_civil.html?id=281695649

I think I can read "l'officlal d'amiens" but whether this is the place or the name of the Monseigneur I really don't know.

The crossed out entry above is a baptism unconnected to the marriage.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Saturday 13 November 21 20:42 GMT (UK)
Thanks jayaygee, and the link to the register if anyone else wants to have a look. The link takes you to the first page of the film, and this marriage is on image 123 out of 1322.

Yes, it's very frustrating to not be able to decipher the information about Berthelemy.
I see the name 'Anne D'aire' also appears in the list of witnesses in the text, so that's a big help.
I knew her father was Francois Du vivier, but not her mother's name. I see a Francois Du vivier and a Louis(?) Du vivier also sign.
And yes! The priest has written 'Madelaine' in the body of the text, and 'Margueritte' for her to make her mark!
Other records I have give her as Madelaine, so I think he's just got a bit mixed up.

Maybe an 'ordonnance' was like a marriage licence?
it's all very perplexing!

The letters I can make out after 'St Laurend' are  '?n(?) almagn?e??sche
de ? et Madelaine.........'
Can you fill in any blanks or correct any of them?

Interestingly, it doesn't mention Berthelemy's name in the margin where it usually gives the name of the groom and the bride, but instead gives that 'de bodemont' and 'duvivier'.

Many thanks for your interest



Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: jayaygee on Saturday 13 November 21 20:55 GMT (UK)
I had yet another look and also at the index to the Montreuil parish registers here:

https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/2366266425731913/Montreuil_1593-1791.pdf

and see that it has this marriage as being between DE BODEMONT first name uncertain and DUVIVIER Marguerite, but the handwriting in the margin is not the same as that of the entry itself and may have been added later and just copied by the later indexer. It's all a bit mysterious especially as I can't see either a signature or a mark made by a DE BODEMENT.  There is a baptism for a Madeleine DUVIVIER, but not for a Marguerite - though that could be due to a gap in the register.

Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 09:34 GMT (UK)
Thanks jayaygee.
I will have to put my thinking cap on and let it roll around in my brain for a while!  ;)
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: Zefiro on Sunday 14 November 21 15:13 GMT (UK)
I had another go at this one. I managed to solve about everything, but the crucial parts still elude me.

Apres la publica(ti)on des bans de mariage entre Bertelemy
Bertolle de la paroisse de S(ain)t Laurens ...
de Bodemont et Madelaine du Vivie de cette paroisse et
en operation de l'ordonnance par eux obtenue de mons(ieu)r
l'official d'... en datte du seizieme d'octobre ... an
jay Andre Desmonez pretre et vicaire enliberé ledit mariage
et leur ay donné la benediction nuptiale en ceste eglise
presence de Jacques ..., Francois du Vivie, Louie
du Vivie, Noel du Pin, Anne d'Aire, damoiselle Marie
de Langaigne et plusieure autres, tous parrens et amye
desdits partie qui ont avec elles et nous signé le
cinquieme jour de novembre mil six cent quatre
vingt cinq.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 14 November 21 18:04 GMT (UK)
I took the liberty of posting the entry on the paleography forum of Généanet and here is the transcription a member came up with:

« Après la publication des bans de mariage entre Bertélemy
BERTOLLE, de la paroisse de St Laurens en Almagne, dusché
de Bodement, et Madelaine DU VIVIER, de ceste paroisse,
en exécution de l’ordonnance par eux obtenue de monsieur
l’official d’Amiens en datte du seizième d’octobre audit an,
j’ay, André DESMONTZ, prêtre et vicaire, célébré ledit mariage
et leur ay donné la bénédiction nuptialle en ceste église,
présence de Jacques HEURTEAUX, Francois DUVIVIER, Louis
DU VIVIER, Noël DU PEIN, Anne D’AIRE, damoiselle Marie
DE LANGAIGNE et plusieurs autres, tous parens et amys
desdites parties, qui ont avec elles et nous signé ce
cinquième jour de novembre mil six centz quattre
vingt cinq."
Signatures:
-La marque d’Anne DAIRE, mère de ladite espouzée
-Francois DUVIVIER
-marque de lad(ite) Margueritte DUVIVIER espouzée
-HERTAULT
-Louis DUVIVIER
-Noël DUPIN
-A. DESMONTZ
-Marie DELENGAIGNE
the groom's signature being the really illegible one on the first line.

So well done Zefiro!

The transcriber thinks that Allemagne (today we would translate by Germany but, of course Germany as we know it now didn't exist then) refers to the eastern part of France in a very broad sense and that St Laurent would be the present-day Saint-Laurent-en-Brionnais.  He also suggests that the surname could have been Berthold originally.  So more food for thought.

Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: Zefiro on Sunday 14 November 21 19:02 GMT (UK)
Thank you for getting a full transcription of this text, jayaygee. My version was not that bad, it seems, but I'm aware that some people are better than me in this field. No surprise there, since French is not my mother tongue (nor is English by the way, so feel free to correct me if needed). The time I'm spending helping with this inquiry is not in vain, however. I'm learning new things with every document I attempt to read.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 14 November 21 20:23 GMT (UK)
Your version was very good, Zefiro.  I couldn't agree more that we learn so much from these documents and not just about reading them.  My mother tongue is English but I have lived in France far longer than I lived in the UK and have also been lucky enough to follow a paleography course in the past.  Trying to read new documents helps to keep me in practice as well as getting me to investigate news areas of history, geography, etc.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 21:12 GMT (UK)
What lovely kind people you are jayaygee and Zefiro!
What a great idea to post it on the paleography forum on Geneanet, which of course I had no idea existed, this being my first foray into French records. I had half wondered about asking the office at pas de calais archives if they could decipher the missing bits - I have done this occasionally in England, and the people who work at these places have always been very helpful. But it would have been beyond my abilities to write that sort of email in French. So now no need for that, thank you so much.

I had wondered if it was Saint Laurent en Brionnais, which I see is just a couple of miles from Bodemont town. Their registers are on the Saone et Loire archives, and there are certainly Bertolle families around there. I must say, once you find exactly where someone came from, French records are pretty good and accessible on line without having to go through a paying site like ancestry and findmypast. It was just that initial pinpointing of where the first Bertolle who came to England came from that was always elusive with no information at all about where he originated.

Do you know if Bodemeont, and St Laurent de Brionnais  have produced an index of baptisms, marriages and deaths jayaygee such as you managed to find for Montreuil sur mer?

Now it looks as if they came to Montreuil from hundreds of miles away in Eastern France.
As you say, food for thought indeed.  :)
Thanks you so much again.
Title: Re: French marriage 1686
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 22:29 GMT (UK)
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