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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: kdsoph on Saturday 13 November 21 23:17 GMT (UK)

Title: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Saturday 13 November 21 23:17 GMT (UK)
feel like a real nonce but I just can't figure out what this says. It's somewhere in Devon. Please help an ignorant Australian.

Thank you  ;D
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 13 November 21 23:31 GMT (UK)
Can you give the reference for that census please (so we can see how the scribe forms letters). 

I am wondering about Homer but need to see another H.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Oneday on Sunday 14 November 21 00:01 GMT (UK)
There is a word I have just looked up Feormes which is an old word for farmes. Here is one of the links if it helps at all.  https://explainqn.com õ croft-vs-farm
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Sunday 14 November 21 01:40 GMT (UK)
Can you give the reference for that census please (so we can see how the scribe forms letters). 

I am wondering about Homer but need to see another H.

This is from the 1851 Census, for Liverpool Lancashire, England.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 14 November 21 02:03 GMT (UK)
Can you give the reference for that census please (so we can see how the scribe forms letters). 

I am wondering about Homer but need to see another H.

This is from the 1851 Census, for Liverpool Lancashire, England.

Each page of the census comes with a reference

eg.

Household Schedule Number:   29
Piece:   2184
Folio:   118
Page Number:   10

Can you please give that information for the page you are looking at.
there are 1089 people showing as born somewhere in Devon in Liverpool in 1851.  :)

added - or 344,988. if I move the filter slightly!
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 14 November 21 02:10 GMT (UK)
First one looks like Formes (though not sure about the m).  :)

Added: you can give the personís name if you canít find the reference details Mckha refers to.

Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 14 November 21 02:15 GMT (UK)
if it is an F, which I agree, it looks like, but can't find anywhere which looks similar in shape.
(Hence my wondering about Homer)

what about Fordmoor.   How might that be said in a Devonshire accent and interpreted in Liverpool???

https://www.genuki.org.uk/gazetteer?place=F&county=6&search_type=3&display_type=1


added - have you found them on any other census yet?
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 14 November 21 02:22 GMT (UK)
The second example could be seen as starting with an H, and appears to have an upper case letter where the first example does not. It may have been amended or messed up by the enumerator?  :-\

I agree that finding these people in other censuses might help.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Kay99 on Sunday 14 November 21 05:04 GMT (UK)
I think one of the people listed is Sarah Bright b 1788 Feonds Devon in 1851

Looking at the people listed in other census years ( Sarah and others) I think the place is a bad version of Totnes :-\

Kay
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 14 November 21 05:44 GMT (UK)
I think one of the people listed is Sarah Bright b 1788 Feonds Devon in 1851

Looking at the people listed in other census years ( Sarah and others) I think the place is a bad version of Totnes :-\

Kay


I think you are correct.  Well found.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Sunday 14 November 21 08:20 GMT (UK)
Totnes makes sense Kay. I canít work out what else it could be, though neither versions of the place name have that second t, so it must be a mishearing or poor interpretation of Totnes.

Btw kdsopf, you are not an ďignorant AustralianĒ to ask for help identifying a very tricky placename.  :)
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Sunday 14 November 21 21:26 GMT (UK)
Hi, so sorry for the no responses. I am downunder so my water runs down the drain the wrong way and my sun doth shine when your moon is up. I was alseep!

the reference is for the Census is (I know you found it)
Household schedule number 10
Piece 2183
Folio 431
Page number 4

Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Sunday 14 November 21 21:36 GMT (UK)
This is a screenshot of the Census showing family in question. Anne Miller (wife) in No. 84 Grove St was Anne Jacobs - 2nd marriage. Frederick and Charles Jacobs in No. 86 are her sons. I can't figure out who the relationships mentioned are referring to. Anne or her husband William Miller, as he is the head of the household.

You will laugh, but its William I am trying to trace  ;D
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 01:11 GMT (UK)
Gee that looks confusing.  ;D

Normally the relationships in census relate to the head of household, though thatís not set in stone as you have found. The enumerator looks to have been a bit unsure how to list the residents, as you seldom see a 14 year old boy listed first in a household. A step son could be listed as a son.

Do you know who the Brights and Jacksons are?

Have you found any or all of these people in the 1861 or any other censuses?
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 02:45 GMT (UK)
Frederick Jacobs, Charles, and a younger sister Matilda appear to be living in Totnes in the 1841 census.

Another confusing mixed looking family including the Arthur Jackson from the 1851 census.  :-\
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 03:06 GMT (UK)
The 1861 census Ö. Still a bit confusing but getting a bit clearer.

Ann Miller is a widow living at 84 Grove st.

 Living next door at no 86, Hannah Jacobs is head of household. Frederick and Charles Jacobs are her great nephews. All three born in Totnes. Arthur Jackson is Hannahís nephew.

I havenít followed the rest of the family from the 1851 census.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Monday 15 November 21 03:21 GMT (UK)
The 1861 census Ö. Still a bit confusing but getting a bit clearer.

Ann Miller is a widow living at 84 Grove st.

 Living next door at no 86, Hannah Jacobs is head of household. Frederick and Charles Jacobs are her great nephews. All three born in Totnes. Arthur Jackson is Hannahís nephew.

I havenít followed the rest of the family from the 1851 census.

You are amazing - thank you so much. :) No need to follow the rest of the family as it looks as though they were Ann's and its the Miller's I am after. I really just needed to know where in Devon this boys were born so I could figure out the relationships on the Census as William is a dark horse and hard to trace his family or origins. In this Census William Miller lists himself as a Jamaica British subject but I think he was born in Scotland. I don't know where to go from here but I do know it's not Totnes, Devon  ;D. I also need to thank you as I had no death date for William but now I know its before 1861 ....awesome.

Thank you all.  :) :) :)
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 03:27 GMT (UK)
You said you are researching William Miller. Was he married before he married Anne?

On the 1861 census there is a 20 year old son, Peter. Who is his mother? Anne?

I just had a quick look on freebmd but couldnít see a marriage for William Miller and Ann Jacobs (havenít tried variants). When did they marry?

Is there anything in particular you want to find out about William?

Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Monday 15 November 21 03:48 GMT (UK)
You said you are researching William Miller. Was he married before he married Anne?

On the 1861 census there is a 20 year old son, Peter. Who is his mother? Anne?

I just had a quick look on freebmd but couldnít see a marriage for William Miller and Ann Jacobs (havenít tried variants). When did they marry?

Is there anything in particular you want to find out about William?


This is what I (think) know about William Miller;

He married Sarah MAYOH on July 4, 1819, in Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
They had 3 or 4 children in 10 years;


Alexander Miller 1820Ė?

Agnes Hannay Miller 1822Ė?

Agnes Miller 1826Ė? could be the same as her sister above but Agnes Hannay would have been 13 when she married if that is the case. So I think 2 babies were names Hannah because the 1st might have died.

Peter Mayoh MILLER (Anlaby Station Mgr.) 1831Ė1908. emigrated 1852 to South Australia

Sarah Miller died in Sep 1849. William married Ann Jacobs before 1851 and moved from a ritzy address in Percy Street into the Grove Street address.
He was a Cotton Broker and owed money all over the place by this time. I know this because his son Peter worked hard in Australia and eventually paid off his father's debts.
He lists himself as a Jamaican British subject - does this mean he was born in Jamaica?
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 04:06 GMT (UK)
Here is Grove Street in Liverpool:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18.092882320117766&lat=53.40052&lon=-2.96237&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld

As you can see there is not much left of the place. So so sad.  :'(

If you take a Google street view walk down Canning Street Liverpool, looking at the size of the houses on the map, (though there is some variation) I am guessing that Grove Street might have looked similar when your family lived there. You get the general feel of it anyway. Very bea-u-tiful!!!
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 04:12 GMT (UK)
What an interesting family. Yes, William was born in Jamaica.

It might be worth you looking further into that - non PC but they may have links to plantations and slavery. Wild guess, but you never know.  ;) Fits with the cotton trade.

Posh house in Percy Street to posh house in Grove Street it seems. What was the Percy St address?
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Monday 15 November 21 04:16 GMT (UK)
What an interesting family. Yes, William was born in Jamaica.

It might be worth you looking further into that - non PC but they may have links to plantations and slavery. Wild guess, but you never know.  ;) Fits with the cotton trade.

Posh house in Percy Street to posh house in Grove Street it seems. What was the Percy St address?

Would you know how I could find BDMs for Jamaica? I am very open to the slavery bit because there is a tiny amount of Benin and Toga in the DNA and this may be where it came from.

15 Percy St but even that is complicated because there is a 15 Back Percy St and there is no15 Percy St but...if you look at 13 Percy St you could surmise that there was once a 15 Percy St and the numbers changed over the years,
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 05:24 GMT (UK)
No sorry, I have no idea about Jamaican research, but Iím sure someone will be able to help you. All I know is what Iíve seen on Who Do You Think You Are.  :)

Google would probably be my first port of call Ö. Maybe Familysearch? Alternatively, you could start a new thread :)

It would be interesting to find out more about the family and see if it fits in with the DNA results.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 05:37 GMT (UK)
I just had a look at Percy Street. Very nice!

Where did you find their address as 15 Percy Street? Iím asking because the number 3 and 5 can look similar so it could also be a transcription error. It would be good to see the original if possible, but yes, numbers could well have changed over the years.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 05:43 GMT (UK)
I donít know if this will lead you anywhere useful:
http://www.jamaicanfamilysearch.com/
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Monday 15 November 21 06:05 GMT (UK)
I just had a look at Percy Street. Very nice!

Where did you find their address as 15 Percy Street? Iím asking because the number 3 and 5 can look similar so it could also be a transcription error. It would be good to see the original if possible, but yes, numbers could well have changed over the years.

I found the address in a couple of places. I will share the 1841 Census.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Monday 15 November 21 06:07 GMT (UK)
This is William with his dau. Agnes 15 and son Peter 10 as well as 2 servants at 15 Percy Street. Sarah his wife and their son Alexander are not present. I have not found them yet.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 06:49 GMT (UK)
OK, thatís definitely a number 15.  ;D
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Ruskie on Monday 15 November 21 06:59 GMT (UK)
Was Alexander Miller born in Scotland? If so there is a possible match in Woolwich, Kent at the Royal Artillery Barracks.

If he was born in Lancashire, there is a 20 year old Alexander Miller, a clerk, living with a 60 year old Nancy Miller and an 18 year old Ellen Miller in Liverpool.  :-\ Do these names ring a bell as being family members? Nancy could be a nickname for Anne.  :-\
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Monday 15 November 21 23:19 GMT (UK)
Was Alexander Miller born in Scotland? If so there is a possible match in Woolwich, Kent at the Royal Artillery Barracks.

If he was born in Lancashire, there is a 20 year old Alexander Miller, a clerk, living with a 60 year old Nancy Miller and an 18 year old Ellen Miller in Liverpool.  :-\ Do these names ring a bell as being family members? Nancy could be a nickname for Anne.  :-\

Alexander (1820), and Agnesx2 (1822 and about 1826) were born in their mother, Sarah Mayoh's hometown of Kelton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland. Peter was born in Liverpool
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Gadget on Monday 15 November 21 23:43 GMT (UK)


Alexander (1820), and Agnesx2 (1822 and about 1826) were born in their mother, Sarah Mayoh's hometown of Kelton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland. Peter was born in Liverpool

Just to mention that Kelton is a parish rather than a town.  Today, the largest settlement in the parish is Castle Douglas.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/Kelton

Many of my relatives lived in the area.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Tuesday 16 November 21 21:19 GMT (UK)


Alexander (1820), and Agnesx2 (1822 and about 1826) were born in their mother, Sarah Mayoh's hometown of Kelton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland. Peter was born in Liverpool

Just to mention that Kelton is a parish rather than a town.  Today, the largest settlement in the parish is Castle Douglas.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/sct/KKD/Kelton

Many of my relatives lived in the area.

Thank you Gadget!
I must admit this little Australian is a little flummoxed by Scottish records and geography. They don't seem to be very specific to me. All I have is a birth record for Alexander;

Alexander Miller 
Gender Male  Birth 28 Sep 1820
Place, Kelton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland 
Baptism Place, Kelton, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
Father William Miller 
Mother Sarah Mayoh 
FHL Film Number 1067975 
Reference ID 2:16597KW

So I don't know which town. Do you know if the area had anything to do with the cotton trade with Jamaica?
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 16 November 21 22:23 GMT (UK)
It was mainly a rural parish with Castle Douglas as the main town by 1820.  My  3 x great aunt and her husband had an hotel there at that time. Also, a 3rd cousin was a watch and clock maker. His in laws were blacksmiths there. 

Here's some info about the parish from the Old Statistical Account of Scotland:

Link to a description of the parish of  Kelton in the  the First/Old Statistical Account  of Scotland:

https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/viewer/osa-vol8-Parish_record_for_Kelton_in_the_county_of_Kirkcudbright_in_volume_8_of_account_1/osa-vol8-p297-parish-kirkcudbright-kelton?search=kelton

(use the side arrows to read through)

Also, a little general information about the Statistical Accounts

https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/exhibition/osa

I've got some photos of Castle Douglas which are on my other machine. I'll put some up on here for you if you'd like.

Gadget

Add - the link that I gave on my previous post also gives some information about the area.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Tuesday 16 November 21 22:54 GMT (UK)
It was mainly a rural parish with Castle Douglas as the main town by 1820.  My  3 x great aunt and her husband had an hotel there at that time. Also, a 3rd cousin was a watch and clock maker. His in laws were blacksmiths there. 

Here's some info about the parish from the Old Statistical Account of Scotland:

Link to a description of the parish of  Kelton in the  the First/Old Statistical Account  of Scotland:

https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/viewer/osa-vol8-Parish_record_for_Kelton_in_the_county_of_Kirkcudbright_in_volume_8_of_account_1/osa-vol8-p297-parish-kirkcudbright-kelton?search=kelton

(use the side arrows to read through)

Also, a little general information about the Statistical Accounts

https://stataccscot.edina.ac.uk/static/statacc/dist/exhibition/osa

I've got some photos of Castle Douglas which are on my other machine. I'll put some up on here for you if you'd like.

Gadget

Add - the link that I gave on my previous post also gives some information about the area.

This is wonderful information. Thank you!
I just found Peter Mayoh of Castle Douglas taking Apprentices in 1803 and 1804 just stating he was a mercer.

Peter was Sarah Mayoh Miller's father. It seems to me from Sarah's prosperous marriage as well as a sister's that they must have been a prominent family in what is described as a quiet rural place.

I will follow your links with glee!

Thank you
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Tuesday 16 November 21 23:15 GMT (UK)
Not sure if I should start a new query but I shall include this here since it is the same family and will be guided.

I found another word I can't make out on a marriage record in Leyland, Lancashire, England.

to recap the family;

Peter Mayoh of Castle Douglas (mercer) married Nancy Hannah or Agnis Hannay date unknown.

Peter was the father of

Sarah Mayoh who married William Miller (1795-c. 1852) Jamaican British subject and cotton broker of Liverpool

Sarah and William had a son Alexander, a dau. Agnes and another son Peter Mayoh Miller (1831-1908)

Sarah died in about 1849  and William remarried a widow Ann Jacobs from Devon (maiden name unknown) but ran  up debts before he died in about 1852
William's son, Peter Mayoh Miller, emigrated to Australia and worked hard to save up enough money to pay off his father's debts and raise 10 children on his own as his wife died age 32!

I am attempting to work out Peter Mayoh Miller's ancestry.

So I now have a word I can't make out on a marriage record to see if this is a marriage for Peter Mayo and am hoping you can help me out. Is it Whitsler? and if so what does it mean? see attached.
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: Gadget on Tuesday 16 November 21 23:26 GMT (UK)
I think it''s Whitster  ~

Quote
a person who whitens or bleaches clothes.

Add - source:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/whitster

Add 2 - I read this thread because I lived in Devon for nearly 25 years - and I found you mentioning one of my ancestral places  ;D
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Tuesday 16 November 21 23:54 GMT (UK)
I think it''s Whitster  ~

Quote
a person who whitens or bleaches clothes.

Add - source:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/whitster

Add 2 - I read this thread because I lived in Devon for nearly 25 years - and I found you mentioning one of my ancestral places  ;D

The interesting thing is that I have relatives from another tree who all hail from Devon so the original question re Totnes was because I have done a lot of research about that family and the "Feormes", Devon had me stumped. They are an entirely different mystery. Farmers and bootmakers are easier to find than Jamaican cotton brokers of Liverpool thank goodness!
Title: Re: Where in Devon?
Post by: kdsoph on Tuesday 16 November 21 23:57 GMT (UK)
I think it''s Whitster  ~

Quote
a person who whitens or bleaches clothes.

Oh thank you ...again. So this marriage is possible although the cotton industry was huge at this time.

Add - source:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/whitster

Add 2 - I read this thread because I lived in Devon for nearly 25 years - and I found you mentioning one of my ancestral places  ;D

The interesting thing is that I have relatives from another tree who all hail from Devon so the original question re Totnes was because I have done a lot of research about that family and the "Feormes", Devon had me stumped. They are an entirely different mystery. Farmers and bootmakers are easier to find than Jamaican cotton brokers of Liverpool thank goodness!