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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK)

Title: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK)
This is the baptism of Magdeleine duvivier in 1662.

The start doesn't give the date, as these normally do. I suspect it's something like 'the same day as above', but would be grateful if anybody can work it out.
Am I correct in thinking his occupation in 'peintre'? - a painter.
I'm guessing not an artist type painter, but a general painter. Did they have a lot of paint to paint houses in 1662?!

Magdeleine
duvivier

le ? ? 1662 a été baptisie magdeleine neé le  ?
du ?   entre 9 et 10 heures du matin fille de francois duvivier
peintre et de Anne d’air, son parrein Charle bodart, sa mareine
magdeleine ?


Many thanks
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 14 November 21 10:34 GMT (UK)
I think the date is 31st August (le dernier Aoust) and the date of birth 24th (24e du courant) but I could well be wrong as babies were most usually baptised very shortly after they were born.  I can't find the entry on line at the AD - can you post the link so we can look at the other baptisms before and after to see if the time scale is usual there.  The godfather's surname could be Godart - there are quite a few in the index - in which case the godmother's surname could be Gonal but I can't see that name in the index.

By the way, in case you haven't seen it, the entry for Madelaine's brother François's marriage on 20 June 1685 (sorry, I didn't note the image number but it's not much before her own marriage) says their father François is deceased.
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: manukarik on Sunday 14 November 21 11:17 GMT (UK)
It doesn't look like peintre to me, more like printe, but that doesn't make any sense!

tried looking through this:
http://www.vieuxmetiers.org/ (http://www.vieuxmetiers.org/)

but can't find anything that matches.

Did find these notes on the marriage contract for François Duvivier and Anne Daire online. They may help decipher some of the information you've found.
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 14 November 21 11:28 GMT (UK)
What a wonderful find, Manukarik, a family historian's dream!
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 20:49 GMT (UK)
Thanks jayaygee for the bits out of Magdeleine/s baptism.
Here's most of the page it's on.
It's under baptisms on the Notre Dame film, which is pretty jumbled up an a challenge to search. There are also baptisms for brother Francois 20.1.1659, and Anthoinette 6.10.1660. The marriage of Francois Duvivier and Anne D'aire is also in the Notre Dame registers, on 16th July 1651, (not the fabulous entry manukarik has found, just the regular type entry for marriages). This is not on the index - in fact I have found several entries which are not on the index, so it looks as if it will be worth my while just to go through each frame on the films. As they seem to use different churches in Montreuil (at least 2 out of about 6 there), it may take me some time!

Thanks manukarik for the other information you found about the marriage of Francois and Anne.
Can you provide a source please?
I can make out some names, but it would be really helpful to have a translation of it. There are quite a lot of abbreviations I don't know, and my French is not up to some of it at all!

The site of occupations in the link you posted manukarik gives several entries for different 'peintres'.
A straight 'peintre' evidently painted the religious images and statues. I like that one!
Many thanks
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Sunday 14 November 21 22:34 GMT (UK)
So I've had a quick look at the 'Notes of contract of marriage' kindly found by manukarik, and not doing too badly. It is much clearer writing the the parish registers!
I've made a stab at  the abbreviations for first name s- eg Pierre for 'Pre; Marie for Mie; Catherine for Cathne; Jeanne for Jne (female), etc
I'm guessing 'fe' is femme, and 'vue' is veuve (widow).

I'm stumped with the first abbreviation though - after 'Mariage de F(ranc)ois Duvivier' is 'Md'. Any clues?
The other bit that has me stumped is in the 7th line.
'Nicquet, pietre, cure de St Valloy, ?   ?    ?, de N(ichol)as? Deroller son beau'.
This same phrase appears again in the 10th line.

Any help gratefully received
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Sunday 14 November 21 23:24 GMT (UK)
Your interpretation of the abbreviations looks fine to me.  Sorry, no idea what Md could be but it's late so, if noone else has any ideas, I may get some inspiration tomorrow. 
Line 7: Nicquet, prêtre, curé de St Valloy, "cousin remué de germain" - term which seems to vary in  meaning according to different regions.  It can mean second cousin or a generation below as far as I can see, but someone else may know better.
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: Bookbox on Sunday 14 November 21 23:58 GMT (UK)
Sorry, no idea what Md could be but it's late so, if noone else has any ideas, I may get some inspiration tomorrow.

m(archan)d perhaps?
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Monday 15 November 21 04:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks jayaygee
No wonder I had no idea about what that phrase was!

Thanks Bookbox for your input.
It's a possibility.
On the baptism of three children I've found, just a few years after this marriage, he is given as a 'peintre' - a painter.
This is borne out on the transcribed index jayaygee found of the bmds of Montreuil, as they have also transcribed it is 'peintre'.

Not to say he couldn't have changed occupations of course at some point.
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Monday 15 November 21 05:52 GMT (UK)
This is the actual marriage entry in the notre dame register.
The  'marriage contract' notes were very useful in deciphering lots of the names!

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to give his occupation.

duvivier et daire

Le seiziesme Juillet mil six cent cinquante sept apres la procamation des
bans et solernments requisites francois duvivier de la pariosse de notre dame
monstreuil  y a prise a femme Anne daire de la pariosse de ?
et p ?   de   ?     de       ?               Mre René nicquet
curé de St valloy  de  pierre vivier et marie du bucquet pere et mere
?   du vivier, de hughes du vivier et francoise prevost les oncles, de
Nicolae de rollet ?   a la cal   ?   beau pere a lad(it) daire, c(ousin) de nicolae
sanlecq son oncle au    ?    a la ca   st de plusiers autre
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Monday 15 November 21 10:01 GMT (UK)
m(archan)d perhaps?
[/quote]

(Hope I've done the quote right) Added: No sorry it doesn't mention the author

Yes, I agree.  "Marchand" came to my mind overnight.

Marriage contracts were drawn up by a notary and usually give a lot more information than the corresponding register entry but not everyone made one and then the have to have survived...and be legible.
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: manukarik on Monday 15 November 21 14:44 GMT (UK)
https://en.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/218839/110?idcollection=218839&legacy_script=%2Farchives%2Fregistres%2Fview%2Findex.php&page=110 (https://en.geneanet.org/archives/registres/view/218839/110?idcollection=218839&legacy_script=%2Farchives%2Fregistres%2Fview%2Findex.php&page=110)


Link to notes posted
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Monday 15 November 21 16:46 GMT (UK)
Going back to the baptism entry :

line 3 : ...Anne daire de la paroisse de caleterie....

line 4 : en p(rese)nce de m(essi)re p beizé (??) curé de reverende personne m(essi)re René ... (not at all sure about the words in italics or the first priest's name)

line 6 : audit du vivier

line 7 : nicolas de rolletz dmt (= demeurant) a la caloterie...et de nicolas

line 8 : ....son oncle aussy d(e)m(euran)t a la caloterie et....

A tree online at Généanet gives Anne's birth - but it may in fact be baptism - as being on 19 juin 1640 at La Calot(t)erie.

Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: manukarik on Monday 15 November 21 18:11 GMT (UK)
Had a look through the Parish Register for La Calotterie for 1640 - couldn't see Anne Daire's baptism there. Will have a look again later…
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: manukarik on Monday 15 November 21 18:57 GMT (UK)
Found the 1640 baptism for Anne D'Ayre!

http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/v2/ark:/64297/d07bac0368491fd0e351e9c69c6931f2 (http://archivesenligne.pasdecalais.fr/v2/ark:/64297/d07bac0368491fd0e351e9c69c6931f2)

Page 5, 3rd entry on right.

Hope it's the right Anne Daire as there's also reference on geneanet to an Anne Daire born in 1620

Looks like the date is 19 June 1640 and parents Charles (?) Dayre and Jeanne Senlecque (?).

Perhaps someone else has better eyes than me…
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: Zefiro on Monday 15 November 21 20:08 GMT (UK)
@manukarik: your eyes are ok ;D
Le dix-neuvieme jour de juin an 1640
baptisee Anna D'ayre fille de Charles Dayre
et de Jeanne Senlecques sa femme le parin
Jacques du Pieron ...
... en la citadelle de Monstroeil,
la maraine Anne du Crocq

Since 'her' wedding was in 1657, a 1640 birth seems unlikely. Anne would have been a minor and this undoubtedly would have been mentioned in her marriage certificate. Or she wasn't baptized at birth, but years later...
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Monday 15 November 21 21:15 GMT (UK)
Jayaygee. Thanks for completing the 1657 marriage, and confirming Md would mean Marchand.
Thanks Bookbox for suggesting that too.

manukarik. Thanks for the link to the Notaries notes about the marriage which is on geneanet.
Also for the baptism of Anne Daire in 1640. This indeed must be her, as the Notaries notes in reply #2 of this post give her father as Charles and her mother as Jeanne Senlecque.

And Zefiro. Thanks for looking at the baptism and transcribing it. It's certainly getting more and more difficult to see the entries in the very old registers.

What kind, talented people you all are!  :)

Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: manukarik on Monday 15 November 21 21:57 GMT (UK)
This tree on geneanet:

https://gw.geneanet.org/matelo?n=duvivier&oc=3&p=francois (https://gw.geneanet.org/matelo?n=duvivier&oc=3&p=francois)

has these notes:

Notes individuelles
cm du 13/6//1657 Relevés Roger RODIERE Notaire BOCQUILLON
François Duvivier marchand fils de Pierre et Marie Bucquoy (suivant Rodiere mais les actes de bapteme indique Berquen) assisté de Jacques Duvivier cuisinier, de François Dupuis '(suivant Rodiere mais les actes de bapteme indique Dupin) et Anne Duvivier sa femme, de Laurent Bocquillon maréchal et Catherine Duvivier sa femme icelles soeurs, de Hugues Duvivier sergent à verges, de François Prevost et Martine Dubucquoy (suivant Rodiere mais les actes de bapteme indique Berquen Martine et François Pruvost) sa femme maitre cordonnier sa tante, de Jean Duvivier son oncle défunt et Jeanne Barre (il s'agit de Lebacre) sa veuve
et Anne Daire fille de Charles et Jeanne Senlecque, assistée de René Nicquet pretre curé de St Vallois cousin remué de germain, de Nicolas Derollet son beau père, de Michelle Fournier vve de Philippe de Senlecque sa mere grand, de Pierre et Nicolas Senlecque ses oncles, de Charles Nicquet hotelain cousin remué de germain.

which confirms the idea of François Duvivier as a marchand or merchant and shows some of the differences in names between various sources.

If you click on different people in the tree you should be able to get an idea of possible ancestors going further back and where to look…
Title: Re: Another French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Tuesday 16 November 21 03:46 GMT (UK)
Thanks manukarik.
That's the same document as the Notaries notes.
As you say, the variations of spelling are interesting. I'm used to working my way round them in 17th and 18th Century England, but French is a whole new ball game!