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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: baz201 on Sunday 14 November 21 14:53 GMT (UK)

Title: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Sunday 14 November 21 14:53 GMT (UK)
Looking for information on one Alexander McDonald, father of my great-great grandmother, Mary Russell McCaull (nee McDonald) born Scotland, 1840 (Kilmarnock, Ayrshire). buried Aug 1918 • Karori Cemetary, Wellington, New Zealand
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/191436983

Alexander is mentioned on Mary's marriage certificate as occupation "calico printer" living in Arden Street, North Melbourne at the time of marriage (21.2.1859), Church of Scotland in North Melbourne. Mother's name is given as "Ann" on the certificate. Mary's occupation is given as dress-maker on cert. She later immigrated to New Zealand with her husband Henry Michael McCaull (1827-94), he was an architect and they mostly lived in Wellington, with a short time in Otago.

It is possible that the McDonalds originally came from Scotland via Liverpool (assisted passage) to Melbourne on the ship "Allison" from Liverpool arriving 8.2.1853, however I am uncertain of the handwriting which seems to indicate they came from Inverness, when all research suggests the family were from Ayrshire (according to the 1841 census) and the 1840 birth cert for Mary which lists her father's ocupation also as a Calico printer. She had two brothers according to the 1841 census Hugh (b Abt 1830) & Donald (b Abt 1832) . It's unclear if they also immigrated.

All trace of Alexander seems to vanish after the wedding, although his birth is recorded as in St Quivox, Ayrshire in the year 1800 and marriage to Ann McLean (b. 1807, Kilmarnock) in 1835 in St Quivox, Ayrshire also (Ann also appears to have gone by the names 'Agnes' and 'Mary Ann'). I do not know if he and his wife stayed in Victoria working as a Calico printer or if he moved to New Zealand with his daughter and husband. I have no idea where to look for death records as the name is so generic, or if he died in NZ or Australia.

Can somebody please point me in the right direction?

many thanks
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: ColC on Sunday 14 November 21 16:36 GMT (UK)




https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
MARY MCDONALD   Parents    ALEXANDER MCDONALD/ANN MCLEAN - CHILD 4    05/09/1840   Kilmarnock

1841 St Marnock Street, Kilmarnock – on freecen, not there 1851
MCDONALD   Alexander   40   Calico Printer Journeyman   OUC   
MCDONALD   Agnes   35      OUC   
MCDONALD   Hugh   11      OUC   
MCDONALD   Donald   9      OUC   
MCDONALD   Mary           2      AYR   
CURRIE   Neil   25   Black Smith   OUC   

Only Mary born in Ayrshire.

Colin
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: ColC on Sunday 14 November 21 16:56 GMT (UK)
I do not see the marriage you mention in St Quivox but I did find below.

ALEXANDER MCDONALD   Married    AGNES MCLEAN   9 NOVEMBER 1835   KILMARNOCK REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN

ALEXANDER MCDONALD   To    AGNES MCLEAN   15/09/1835   Banns maybe   Kilmarnock

As mentioned neither were born in Ayrshire according to the 1841 census?

Colin
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: ColC on Sunday 14 November 21 18:03 GMT (UK)
I do not see the family in Scotland or England in 1851, is it possible they left Scotland earlier than 1853?

If Hugh & Donald did not leave with Alexander there are a couple of possibilities below on family search.

Hugh 1851?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGRC-MHJ

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6T-9G1

Donald 1851?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG62-QRP

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGLQ-9DW


Colin
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 14 November 21 20:07 GMT (UK)


Can you lease list all the information on the marriage certificate.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 01:15 GMT (UK)
INFORMATION ON MARY MCDONALD'S MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE

transcript of marriage from findmypast.co.uk:
First name(s) Mary
Country Australia
Last name McDonald
Record set Victoria Marriages 1836-1942
Sex Female
Registration number 765
Marriage year 1859
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's first name(s) Henry Michael
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Spouse's last name McCaull
Collections from Australasia, Australia
State Victoria

Further info from certificate (all handwritten):
date of marriage 21 Feb 1859
Henry Michael McCaull, 30, Geelong, architect
witnesses: Michael McCaull, School master; Mary Ann McCaull
Mary McDonald, 19, Arden St North Melbourne, dressmaker
witnesses: Alexander McDonald, Calico Printer (father); Ann McDonald (mother)
the marriage was solemnised as according to the James?{handwriting} of the Church of Scotland
in the presence of Alexander McDonald and Rev G Reed? {handwriting}
by James Sergeant? {handwriting} Officiating Minister   

I could attach the original, but I believe that is against the rules
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 02:04 GMT (UK)
IN RESPONSE TO ColC (Colin)

Thanks Colin for all your research. I was going on info from findmypast.co.uk; ancestry.com & scotlandspeople.gov.uk, but was getting late at night and was getting a bit sleepy so may have missed some exact details.

In your first message, what does OUC mean?

This is the birth data I have for Alexander McDonald from Scotlandspeople:
MCDONALD
ALEXANDER
ROBERT MCDONALD/JANET HARRIS FR153 (FR153)
M
20/04/1801
612/1
10 133
St Quivox

The following is from findmypast for Ann (Agnes) McLean (birth name Mary Ann) - can't seem to find it on scotlandspeople though

Mary Anne McLean
Scotland, Parish Births & Baptisms 1564-1929
Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Transcript of Mary Anne's record
Copy to clipboard
First name(s) Mary Anne
Father's last name McLean
Last name McLean
Father Occupation Weaver
Birth year 1807
Page 120
Birth date 16 May 1807
Archive Ref OPR 597/4
Baptism year -
Year Range 1820-1854
Place Kilmarnock
Item 4
County Ayrshire
Record set Scotland, Parish Births & Baptisms 1564-1929
Country Scotland
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's first name(s) Jean
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Mother's last name Smith
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland
Father's first name(s) David
 
Here's the marriage from scotlandspeople:
MCDONALD
ALEXANDER
AGNES MCLEAN/FR2642 (FR2642)
15/09/1835
597/
110 163
Kilmarnock

the same marriage from findmaypast:
Alexander McDonald
Scotland, Parish Marriages & Banns 1561-1893
Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Transcript of Alexander's record
Year Range 1721-1819
Page 162
Record set Scotland, Parish Marriages & Banns 1561-1893
Banns Date 15 Sep 1835
First name(s) Alexander
Year Of Banns 1835
Last name McDonald
Spouse Residence Douglas Street
Marriage year -
Witness -
Spouse's first name Agnes
Item 1
Spouse's last name McLean
Archive Ref OPR 597/11
Residence Low Glencairn
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
County Ayrshire
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Country Scotland
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland
Place Kilmarnock


This is the info from findmypast for the 1841 census:
Alexander McDonald in 1841
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
St Marnock, Kilmarnock (Ayr), Ayrshire, Scotland
Household members (6 people)

First name(s)   Last name   Sex   Age   Birth year   Birth place
Alexander   McDonald   Male   40   1801   Scotland
Agnes   McDonald   Female   35   1806   Scotland
Hugh   McDonald   Male   11   1830   Scotland
Donald   McDonald   Male   9   1832   Scotland
Mary   McDonald   Female   2   1839   Ayrshire, Scotland
Neal   Currie   Male   25   1816   Scotland

the following is on findmypast for the 1851 census (obviously some of the info is wrong, ie. Alex born in Ireland & Mary's real age, which would have been 11):

Alex McDonald in 1851
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
23, West Shaw Street, Kilmarnock (Ayr), Cunningham, Ayrshire, Scotland
Household members (10 people)

First name(s)   Last name   Relationship   Marital status   Sex   Age   Birth year   Occupation   Birth place
Alex   McDonald   Head   Married   Male   49   1802   Steamer   Ireland
Ann   McDonald   Wife   Married   Female   48   1803   -   Argyllshire, Scotland
Hugh   McDonald   Son   Unmarried   Male   20   1831   Calico printer   Argyllshire, Scotland
Mary   McDonald   Daughter   Married   Female   22   1829   Tailor jour   Argyllshire, Scotland
Donald   Thomson   Lodger   Unmarried   Male   27   1824   Calico printer   Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
William   Johnston   Lodger   Unmarried   Male   25   1826   Calico printer   Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Alex   McMillan   Visitor   Widower   Male   43   1808   Calico printer   Ayr, Ayrshire, Scotland
Elizabeth   McMillan   Visitor   Unmarried   Female   14   1837   -   Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Alexander   McMillan   Visitor   -   Male   10   1841   -   Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
John   McMillan   Visitor   -   Male   7   1844   -   Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland

It's under census returns on scotlandspeople as:
MCDONALD
ALEX
1851
M
49
597/ 21/ 20
Kilmarnock
Ayr

Hugh & Donald McDonald were born out of wedlock, so I think that's the reason why the births are not registered.

Also interesting to note that on Mary's birth registration, her father's occupation is given as Calico printer, as was given on her marriage certificate in North Melbourne for him. Also the 1851 census mentions Mary's occupation as "Tailor jour" and on her marriage cert it mentions her as a "dressmaker"

Now I am trying to find out what happened to Alexander and his wife Ann in Australia or New Zealand after the marriage in 1859!
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: sparrett on Monday 15 November 21 03:09 GMT (UK)
The way you have pasted the marriage certificate into the reply box makes it difficult to read.
It is preferable that you take a little time to type details in a readable format.

What is the age of the bride?
Who were the witnesses please?


Sue

Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 15 November 21 05:27 GMT (UK)
Where do you see the family name RUSSELL in Mary's ancestry?

Press 26 Aug 1918  p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19180826.2.6?

Obituary for Mary McDonald McCAULL, died Aug 1918.


BDM VIC birth
3182/1860   MCCAULL  Charles Nathanie   ps Mary MCDONALD /  Henry Michael  @ Geel


BDM NZ birth
1862/13892   McCAULL   Henry Michael           ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1865/17046   McCAULL   Kenneth Cameron   ps Mary            / Henry Michael
1867/27878   McCAULL   Mary Catherine           ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1871/37186   McCAULL   Emily Sophia           ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1874/43239   McCAULL   Evan Alexander           ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1877/4103   McCAULL   Florence                   ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1881/16892   McCAULL   Frederick Woods   ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1883/2829   McCAULL   Edith                           ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael

BDM NZ death
1918/17363   McCAULL   Mary Russell   79Y

Can you list all the information on this 1918 death certificate.

I do not see a Will for Henry Michael McCAULL or for wife Mary. 






Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 15 November 21 06:07 GMT (UK)


I am still unclear about the document you are looking at for 1859 marriage.

It is a transcription....all handwritten?

"Further info from certificate (all handwritten):.......witnesses: Alexander McDonald, Calico Printer (father); Ann McDonald (mother)"

The witnesses, Alexander McDONALD....after his name you see the word ...father?
                      Ann McDONALD.............after her name you see the word ....mother?

I have seen numerous marriage certificates for Victoria and other states. I do not recall seeing one where the witnesses are identified by their relationship to....anyone.

What certificates do you have for BDM events, Australia and New Zealand,  for the family you are researching?
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 07:33 GMT (UK)
MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE WRITTEN DETAILS

date of marriage 21 Feb 1859

Henry Michael McCaull, 30, Geelong, architect: his witnesses: Michael McCaull, School master; Mary Ann McCaull

Mary McDonald, 19, Arden St North Melbourne, dressmaker: her witnesses: Alexander McDonald, Calico Printer (father); Ann McDonald (mother)

the marriage was solemnised as according to the James? of the Church of Scotland

in the presence of Alexander McDonald and Rev G Reed?
by James Sergeant?  Officiating Minister   
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 07:38 GMT (UK)
YES the certificate is all handwritten. I just pasted in some details from findmypast above that were in their index for the marriage.

yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the cerificate here..!

Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 07:42 GMT (UK)
I have the birth and marriage certificates/details for everybody on that marriage certificate ie. Aleander McDonald, Ann McDonald (nee McLean) and Mary McDonald herself. I don't have the one for Henry Michael McCaull as I am not researchhing that side of the family.

As stated, I am trying to find out what happened to Alexander and Ann after the wedding, and hope to get details of death certificates.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 15 November 21 07:51 GMT (UK)
I am seeing that Mary and Henry McCAULL have several children. Mary has father Alexander, mother Ann/Agnes, brother Hugh, brother James.....but the only suggestion of these names is second name for (fourth?) son.

The name RUSSELL does not continue in the McCAULL family.

Does the name RUSSELL only appear after Mary's marriage, 1859?

Is Mary a RUSSELL who has come into the life of the McDONALD family?

"Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage."

If it was easy you would have found these people by now. It is not easy, and you need to know as much as you can about......everything in Mary's life.

BDM NZ death
1918/17363   McCAULL   Mary Russell   79Y

Can you list all the information on this 1918 death certificate.






Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 08:34 GMT (UK)
I'm sorry I'm out of my depth now. I don't have a death Cert for Mary Russell McCaull and I don't really have the money to throw around to get it. I was just lucky that some relatives gave me the marriage Cert.

As far as I know the Russell became part of her name after the marriage. There is certainly no Russell in the family pre the marriage. I don't know where it came from.

maybe will just have to give up on this one
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: ColC on Monday 15 November 21 12:11 GMT (UK)
Hi Barry,

Re: your post.” What does OUC stand for”?

The 1841 census has a column, which asks the question.

If born in Scotland state whether in County or elsewhere. =
Most enumerators wrote Y/ N  - Yes/No – blank/county
(Or if you are lucky the enumerator might have written where, as was the case with Mary)

A second column asks. If born in England, Ireland or Foreign = E/ I// F


I did see the 1851 census on freecen. I discounted it because place of birth for Alex & Mary also Mary is noted as married and no Donald. Not to mention Skye is in Invernessshire not Argyll.

West Shaw St. Kilmarnock, just the MCDONALD family less Lodgers
Alex   Head   M   M   49   Steamer   IRL   -
Ann   Wife   M   F   48      ARL   Skye
Hugh   Son   U   M   20   Calico Printer   ARL   Skye
Mary   Dau   M   F   22   Tailor Journeyman   ARL   Skye

I checked the transcript on SP, whilst Alex 49 & Ann 48 seemed ok. Hugh was noted as 26 and Mary 22
None of this seemed to match the 1841 census. Have you seen the original 1841/ 1851 census returns?

The fact is there is a record in Ayrshire for the Marriage of Alexander & Agnes/Ann and a baptism for Mary 5/09/1840, noted as the 4th child. This last statement leads me to believe they might have been married earlier, prior to the births of Hugh & Donald. They may have moved to Ayrshire prior to the birth of Mary but they were not born in the county and indeed Alexander may have been born in Ireland.

How to prove it may be a little difficult.

Regards Colin
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Monday 15 November 21 13:01 GMT (UK)
Hi again Colin,

Yes all very confusing.

It all comes down to digging into the facts behind a family legend that Mary is somehow related to the MacDonalds who rescued Bonnie Prince Charlie, Flora MacDonald. My uncle tells me she is related to a cousin of Flora's. This appears to be confirmed here in a clipping from the NZ "Women's Corner", an obituary for Mary:

Press 26 Aug 1918  p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19180826.2.6?

This was kindly pointed out to me by someone down under, in the thread above

What puzzles me is that Mary as I have researched her, would appear to be Lowland Scots, if I have traced the records correctly.

There are only 2 other Mary McDonalds born around 1840, with a father by the name of "Alexander" and mother "Ann" that I could find in Scotland in the records. One migrated to and died in Canada, the other appears to have remained in Scotland and was married to a Scotsman in 1866 in North Uist by the time of Mary's marriage in Melbourne in 1859.

What does intrigue me is the 1851 census and your references to Skye. If they are a red herring or not. I don't know. The 1851 findmypast transcription shows most of them as from Argyllshire. I have been told that people were not always truthful when the census was taken, for whatever reason. I guess the census takers traveled the country and did not know the locals, so could not verify the information.

I'm currently out of credits on scotlandspeople, so will have to revisit that one with getting the original censuses

thanks again, Barry
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: ColC on Monday 15 November 21 16:15 GMT (UK)
Flora MacDonald; was a member of the MacDonald's of Sleat.
Born: 1722, Milton
Died: 5 March 1790, Kingsburgh
Place of burial: Kilmuir Cemetery
Spouse: Allan MacDonald (m. 1750–1790)
Known for: assisting Charles Edward Stuart after his defeat at the Battle of Culloden
Children: John Macdonald

Sadly none of the above is recorded on SP

From the information so far it looks possible that Ann/Agnes may have been born on Skye but if you look at the section headed Help & Advice on SP, scroll down to the records available section, I think you will find there no records for parishes on Skye before the early 1800s and no deaths before 1855 statutory registration.

If the boys were born on Skye the records might be there but I do not see any. It is possible that Ann/Agnes may have been married before, the marriage records I posted may add more information but it may simply say he married her?

 ALEXANDER MCDONALD   Married    AGNES MCLEAN   9 NOVEMBER 1835   KILMARNOCK REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN

ALEXANDER MCDONALD   To    AGNES MCLEAN   15/09/1835   Banns maybe   Kilmarnock

Good luck Colin
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 16 November 21 00:27 GMT (UK)


Marriage certificate, Melbourne 1859, McCAULL-McDONALD.....what do you see for birthplaces for Henry and Mary.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 02:54 GMT (UK)
Hi there,

I  am very NSW centric and for perhaps over 50 years I have been fascinated with what is (and is not) recorded on NSW marriage records, and the different levels of detail provided to members of the general public over those years by the Registrar General's Office (and its successors).    Over the years I have noticed that sometimes some of the family history buffs who have a similar collection of copies of marriage records to me are aware of just how many  documents have had additional information included on those copies, particularly when the documents are handwritten. 

I am wondering if over time, if someone has shared a copy that has in turn been shared to others including to the person who then shared it with Baz ...  and if that copy  has had a family history buff write some details on that copy that were actually NOT on the actual record lodged with the Registrar General.   

You see,  I am concerned that there is possibly some information on the copy that has been given to baz201 that actually would not be required to be included by the deputy registrar.   While I dont have a working knowledge of Victoria's BDM records,  I do know that it would not actually be a requirement for the witnesses to be related to the bride or the groom, and further, there is no provision on the pre-printed form for either a church register or the BDM office copy of the registration for any explanation or relationship to be recorded about how or why the witnesses were chosen.

So I am astonished to read the following :
YES the certificate is all handwritten. I just pasted in some details from findmypast above that were in their index for the marriage.

yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the cerificate here..!

Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage.


I can see that someone has kindly shared their copy with Baz201 :
I'm sorry I'm out of my depth now. I don't have a death Cert for Mary Russell McCaull and I don't really have the money to throw around to get it. I was just lucky that some relatives gave me the marriage Cert.

As far as I know the Russell became part of her name after the marriage. There is certainly no Russell in the family pre the marriage. I don't know where it came from.

maybe will just have to give up on this one


Sorry for the length of this post,  but may I suggest that Baz considers taking a snip of that section of his copy of that m.c.   and uploads that part so that my ancient rellies, including a retired Senior Officer with NSW BDM can study the image too.  I anticipate that a snip of a section of an image of a document dated in the 1850s would not cause a copyright issue, as it would surely be for fair research and study.

I should also share the excellent thread that informs us all as to what to expect on those historic Vic BDM images ... particularly for the marriages.    Here: 
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html

JM



Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 04:03 GMT (UK)
In reply to JM's request, I am posting the snippet from the document that was given to me from my relatives in NZ, which shows the marriage. I hope that, as JM suggests, I am not breaking the rules by doing so. I sincerely apologise to admin if so.

I have further learnt from ancestry.com that there is a document somewhere, either in the family or perhaps with the NZ Genealogy society or NZ National Library called the "McCaull family history document". I am going to see if I can hold of a copy of that somehow as it might provide some answers.

I am also going to write to the State Library of Victoria's family history section to see if they can trace the immigration records for the family, as the various ones I have seen are very hard to read.

Barry
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 16 November 21 05:19 GMT (UK)

Your reply #11 -

"....yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the certificate here..!"

  -  I see nothing on this section of the certificate to indicate that a parent of Mary McDONALD is present when she marries, 1859, Melbourne.

Mary being a minor, it is possible that there is a record of permission given by someone for her to marry.  This would be recorded on the left hand side of the document, which is where  you would also see birthplace recorded.

Do you have the rest of this document - the left hand side?
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 05:38 GMT (UK)
Yes, I have the section to the left. All it gives is a number
The date of the wedding is given on another wedding on the same day, but I don't want to post the entire document in case admin decide to punish me for doing so.

You say "
  -  I see nothing on this section of the certificate to indicate that a parent of Mary McDONALD is present when she marries, 1859, Melbourne."

Would it not be fair to say that the document reads "In the presence of us : Alexander McDonald X his mark"

It mentions above that Alexander McDonald is Mary's father

According to the "McCaull family history document" (which I have not seen but is referred to on Ancestry.com) in summary: Mary Age: 19 on Cert. Marriage mentioned in McCaull family history document,  married at 99 Queensbury Street, N Melb, the home of Rev G. Reed. Her father, Alexander McDonald was witness to the marriage. Mary was a member of Presbyterian Church on Cert.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 05:43 GMT (UK)
 :)

Wivenhoe is spot on. 

The words in brackets are not Father and Mother  and are NOT part of the witness section.  They ARE within the section giving the parents names,  so the words in brackets are  the maiden surnames for the groom's mum and the bride's mum. 

I have had phone conversation with my ancient rellie, he says Wivenhoe always provides excellent comments and yes the LHS should explain who gave consent, afterall bride was 19. 

Also  huge Thank you to Barry for uploading that snip.   There would likely be four entries on the full  pdf, across two pages with reference numbers down the centre.   

JM.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 16 November 21 05:44 GMT (UK)
Hi Baz201

 Hi Baz201
You have not left the headings of the columns (boxes) on you snip.
However I think I know them. ;D
Occupation
(Bridegroom) Architect
(Bride) Dessmaker
Age
(Bridegroom) 30
(Bride) 19

Residence of Each Party
(Bridegroom)- Present Geelong
(Bride) Present -Arden St North Melbourne
(Bridegroom)- Usual- Geelong
(Bride) Usuel  -Arden- St North Melbourne

Name of Father and mother’s  Maiden name
(Bridegroom)  Michael McCaull
Mary Ann McCaull (Farrar)
(Bride) Alexander McDonald
Ann McDonald (McLean)

Father’s Occupation
(Bridegroom) School Teacher
(Bride) Calico Printer

Witnesses were Alexander McDonald and Chas Reed /Beed


The other left hand section should show that the daughter was permitted to marry.
And I would guess by her father



 
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 05:56 GMT (UK)
Thankyou all
Here is the very top of the page that gives the categories on the certificate. It shows the top of the previous recorded marriage

I agree that it does not read mother and father but (McLean) and (Farrar) as sparrett suggested

I still hold that Alexander McDonald is mentioned as a witness, ie. "in the presence of us"
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:02 GMT (UK)
Hi Barry,

If you only have that sheet, you only have the right hand  half of the document. 

JM
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:05 GMT (UK)
Hi JM,
 I have the entire document, both sides, but am reluctant to post the entire document as I got a warning a couple of years ago for posting an entire original document.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:14 GMT (UK)
These are the headings for the right hand side of the document
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:17 GMT (UK)
I agree that Alexander was a witness to the marriage.
This gives us evidence that he was alive at the time of the marriage.

Can you look at the left side and see "with permission of"
Who is giving permission?
Mary was only 19
Sue
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:19 GMT (UK)
Upon request, this is the left side of the document ( I post in fear and trepidation )

update:I have removed the image in case it breaks the rules. I think most people will have seen it by now
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:25 GMT (UK)
Yes.  The entire document is a double page image, with room for FOUR marriage registrations.   

I have not asked you to upload the entire document, and I have read back through the thread and no one has asked you to upload the entire document. 

The document allows four marriages to be registered on it.  There is  information  across the two pages for each of those four pages. 

The information matches the details in the informative thread to which I posted a live link.  So on the Left hand side, some of info in boxes relevant to the LHS headings may provide info about where the bride was born, and where the groom was born,  if he was a bachelor or a widow(er) and if so, if he had children of that earlier marriage and the date he became widowed.... and lots more family history to help you determine where to advance your quest about the bride's parents.


JM
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:33 GMT (UK)
 :) thanks. 

Please don't Be in fear or trepidation.  Family History is not meant to be something to cause fear.


JM.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:39 GMT (UK)
removed!
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:45 GMT (UK)
OK JM, here is the document as I have it. I am just concerned because of the "warning" I received in 2020 (above)
That full upload may be infringing RCHat rules.  Best to unattach it.

JM
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:48 GMT (UK)
Does that mean to show that the bride was born Isle of Skye... ..... 

JM
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 06:51 GMT (UK)
Skye - yes possibly. I think she was actually born in Kilmarnock in 1840, but Colin suggests her parents were possibly from Skye, although records are sparse.
Her birth certificate (Kilmarnock, 5.9.1840) says her father, Alexander, was a "Calico Printer" and the marriage certificate also gives the same profession for him, Calico printer. I'm not going to post the birth certificate here. Please take my word for it. The birth certificate does not give places of birth for her parents
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 16 November 21 09:18 GMT (UK)

Is this your family...with business in Victoria, 1869?

Lyttleton Times 19 Jul 1869 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18690719.2.3?
July 17— Rangitoto, s.s., 459 tons, Mackie, for Dunedin, Bluff, and Melbourne.
Passengers.... Mrs McCaull and four children.....
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 09:38 GMT (UK)
Very likely, yes. McCaull is such an uncommon name. She had 4 children by that stage plus one born at sea on 25 jun 1869, en route to Christchurch & Lyttleton according to my records.

Probably one of the children had stayed in NZ and not gone on the ship, the oldest child was 9 at that stage.
Thankyou for finding this. much appreciated
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 16 November 21 09:57 GMT (UK)


What children do you have for Henry Michael McCAULL and Mary McDONALD?

 "one born at sea on 25 jun 1869, en route to Christchurch & Lyttleton"

......en route from....where?
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Tuesday 16 November 21 10:22 GMT (UK)
These are all the children:

Birth of son Charles Nathaniel McCaull(1860–1929)
14 FEB 1860 • Geelong, Victoria

Birth of son Henry Michael McCaull(1862–1884)
1 May 1862 • Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand

Birth of son Kenneth Cameron McCaull(1865–1950)
17 February 1865 • Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand

Birth of daughter Mary "Minnie" Catherine McCaull(1867–1934)
22 February 1867 • Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand

Birth of daughter "Marcella" Jemima Copeland McCAULL(1869–)
25 JUN 1869 • At Sea from Levuka, Ovalau Island, Fiji and Lyttleton Canterbury NZ.

Birth of daughter Emily Sophia McCaull(1871–1950)
6 November 1871 • Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand

Birth of son Evan Alexander McCaull(1874–)
12 November 1874 • Wellington, New Zealand

Birth of daughter Florence McCaull(1877–1945)
5 June 1877 • Wellington, New Zealand

Birth of son Frederick Woods McCaull(1880–1881)
6 December 1880 • Wellington, New Zealand

Birth of daughter Edith Alice McCAULL(1883–1916)
19 February 1883 • Wellington, New Zealand
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 17 November 21 06:10 GMT (UK)


Star (Christchurch) 16 Jul 1869 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18690716.2.3.2?
..arrival "Jeannie Duncan" from Levuka 24 June....Mrs McCAUL of a daughter the day after leaving Levuka....
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Wednesday 17 November 21 07:29 GMT (UK)
thankyou
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Wednesday 17 November 21 08:22 GMT (UK)
How does one search for names of people/families who emigrated to Victoria, by assisted passage. We have established that her father was at the wedding in Melbourne.

Mary's marriage cert also states she was born on the "Isle of Sky " sic.

Other family members may have immigrated with her. We also know from the certificate her mother's maiden name was Ann McLean and her father's occupation was a calico printer.

I have a Sccotlandspeople.gov.uk birth record for a Mary McDonald b 8 Sep 1840 in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, father, Alexander McDonald, occupation, Calico Printer and mother Ann McLean

The 1841 Kilmarnock census lists her and her family (+ 2 brothers, Hugh b 1830 and Donald b 1832) however all other members besides Mary are listed as born outside of Ayrshire, suggesting they may have recently arrived from Skye.

An 1851 census form from Kilmarnock has the following McDonald Family:
Alexander, age 49, occupation 'steamer', birth country Ireland
Ann, age 48, no occupation listed, birthplace Skye
Hugh, Age 20, occupation Calico printer, birthplace Skye
Mary, Age 22, occupation Tailor Journeyman, birthplace Skye

Mary's age is a bit puzzling here - she would have been about 11 at the time. However her occupation as 'tailor journeyman' fits with her occupation on her marriage certificate in Melbourne in 1859 "dressmaker". Maybe they lied to the census taker re her age, which I have seen happen on other census forms from North America.
The Calico printer seems to fit, son taking the father's occupation, (how common was a calico printer as an occupation in the day?) but what was a 'steamer"? - something to do with printing? Again, I think the place of birth Ireland could also be a lie, for whatever reason.


My suspicion is that if this is the correct family, they left sometime after that for Melbourne on assisted passage. They obviously were a working class family and wanted to broaden their horizons.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 17 November 21 10:28 GMT (UK)
For your consideration-

There is nothing on the marriage certificate that shows the illiterate person named Alexander McDONALD was Mary's father. 

I have not seen anything in available resources, to show that her father was ever in Melbourne.

A16/17 18/ or 19 year old Mary McDONALD may have traveled alone as an assisted passenger to Victoria at that time when there was a great shortage of marriageable women in the colony.  She may have come with other relations.

Sue
   
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: baz201 on Wednesday 17 November 21 23:11 GMT (UK)
Thanks Sue, I'll keep that in mind.

I thinkk I will have to contact family history at the State Library of Victoria
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 17 November 21 23:15 GMT (UK)
Thanks Sue, I'll keep that in mind.

I thinkk I will have to contact family history at the State Library of Victoria

What are you hoping they will have for you? ;D
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: majm on Wednesday 17 November 21 23:25 GMT (UK)
I am on ereader, so cannot do live links.

Barry has started a thread on NZ board and there are replies. 

Yes,  unaccompanied minors came to the British colonies once convictism had effectively ceased in NSW in 1840ish.  Many boys and girls were illiterate or semi literate,  and, as in convict times, were able to practise their reading, writing and numbers on the voyages out, particularly if there were Sunday School teachers among passengers and or crew.

JM. Modified for poor spelling...  one finger typiste this morning.
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 18 November 21 00:24 GMT (UK)
You need to be realistic about what is available to you in researching the origins of Mary McDONALD, married Victoria 1859.

The State Library of Victoria will not research your family for you. They will respond to a specific question eg. what records are available for passenger arrivals into Victoria?
 What question will you ask?

"McCaull family history document" which you have found on a family tree will be a document that a researcher has written up and referenced on their submitted tree on Ancestry.

If it was a document held by a library etc. it would have a better title than just "family document".

BDM NZ birth
1869/10770   McCAUL   Jemima Copeland   parents Mary / Henry Millace

BDM NZ
1886/2910   Marcella   McCAULL   marr.  William   GOLDSMITH


It would be useful to your research if you can  account for the children of Mary and Henry.
These two death records would be useful to you.

NZ BDM death
1894/1679   McCAULL   Henry Michael   64Y
1918/17363   McCAULL   Mary Russell   79Y
Title: Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
Post by: wivenhoe on Thursday 18 November 21 06:05 GMT (UK)

I think that it is reasonable to see this birth to be your family, with Henry Millace being a difficult transcription for Michael.

That gives two occasions where you see this family name as McCAUL, from sources independent of each other, and both relating to the birth of Jemima. 

Do you see another occasion where this family is recorded as McCAUL?

BDM NZ birth
1869/10770   McCAUL   Jemima Copeland   parents Mary / Henry Millace

Star (Christchurch) 16 Jul 1869 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18690716.2.3.2?
..arrival "Jeannie Duncan" from Levuka 24 June....Mrs McCAUL of a daughter the day after leaving Levuka....

I think that it is possible that Mary McCAULL has returned to NZ from Fiji with someone. This person booked the passage for McCAUL, and registered the birth as McCAUL.  This person is not a McCAULL.  Who is this person? 

Why is Mary in Fiji?  And why, just a few weeks later, is Mary, new baby, and several children travelling to Victoria?

A printout of this 1869 birth certificate would be useful for your research.