RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: AusFamily on Sunday 14 November 21 14:53 GMT (UK)
-
Looking for information on one Alexander McDonald, father of my great-great grandmother, Mary Russell McCaull (nee McDonald) born Scotland, 1840 (Kilmarnock, Ayrshire). buried Aug 1918 Karori Cemetary, Wellington, New Zealand
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/191436983
Alexander is mentioned on Mary's marriage certificate as occupation "calico printer" living in Arden Street, North Melbourne at the time of marriage (21.2.1859), Church of Scotland in North Melbourne. Mother's name is given as "Ann" on the certificate. Mary's occupation is given as dress-maker on cert. She later immigrated to New Zealand with her husband Henry Michael McCaull (1827-94), he was an architect and they mostly lived in Wellington, with a short time in Otago.
It is possible that the McDonalds originally came from Scotland via Liverpool (assisted passage) to Melbourne on the ship "Allison" from Liverpool arriving 8.2.1853, however I am uncertain of the handwriting which seems to indicate they came from Inverness, when all research suggests the family were from Ayrshire (according to the 1841 census) and the 1840 birth cert for Mary which lists her father's ocupation also as a Calico printer. She had two brothers according to the 1841 census Hugh (b Abt 1830) & Donald (b Abt 1832) . It's unclear if they also immigrated.
All trace of Alexander seems to vanish after the wedding, although his birth is recorded as in St Quivox, Ayrshire in the year 1800 and marriage to Ann McLean (b. 1807, Kilmarnock) in 1835 in St Quivox, Ayrshire also (Ann also appears to have gone by the names 'Agnes' and 'Mary Ann'). I do not know if he and his wife stayed in Victoria working as a Calico printer or if he moved to New Zealand with his daughter and husband. I have no idea where to look for death records as the name is so generic, or if he died in NZ or Australia.
Can somebody please point me in the right direction?
many thanks
-
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
MARY MCDONALD Parents ALEXANDER MCDONALD/ANN MCLEAN - CHILD 4 05/09/1840 Kilmarnock
1841 St Marnock Street, Kilmarnock on freecen, not there 1851
MCDONALD Alexander 40 Calico Printer Journeyman OUC
MCDONALD Agnes 35 OUC
MCDONALD Hugh 11 OUC
MCDONALD Donald 9 OUC
MCDONALD Mary 2 AYR
CURRIE Neil 25 Black Smith OUC
Only Mary born in Ayrshire.
Colin
-
I do not see the marriage you mention in St Quivox but I did find below.
ALEXANDER MCDONALD Married AGNES MCLEAN 9 NOVEMBER 1835 KILMARNOCK REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN
ALEXANDER MCDONALD To AGNES MCLEAN 15/09/1835 Banns maybe Kilmarnock
As mentioned neither were born in Ayrshire according to the 1841 census?
Colin
-
I do not see the family in Scotland or England in 1851, is it possible they left Scotland earlier than 1853?
If Hugh & Donald did not leave with Alexander there are a couple of possibilities below on family search.
Hugh 1851?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGRC-MHJ
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6T-9G1
Donald 1851?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG62-QRP
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGLQ-9DW
Colin
-
Can you lease list all the information on the marriage certificate.
-
INFORMATION ON MARY MCDONALD'S MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE
transcript of marriage from findmypast.co.uk:
First name(s) Mary
Country Australia
Last name McDonald
Record set Victoria Marriages 1836-1942
Sex Female
Registration number 765
Marriage year 1859
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's first name(s) Henry Michael
Subcategory Civil Marriage & Divorce
Spouse's last name McCaull
Collections from Australasia, Australia
State Victoria
Further info from certificate (all handwritten):
date of marriage 21 Feb 1859
Henry Michael McCaull, 30, Geelong, architect
witnesses: Michael McCaull, School master; Mary Ann McCaull
Mary McDonald, 19, Arden St North Melbourne, dressmaker
witnesses: Alexander McDonald, Calico Printer (father); Ann McDonald (mother)
the marriage was solemnised as according to the James?{handwriting} of the Church of Scotland
in the presence of Alexander McDonald and Rev G Reed? {handwriting}
by James Sergeant? {handwriting} Officiating Minister
I could attach the original, but I believe that is against the rules
-
IN RESPONSE TO ColC (Colin)
Thanks Colin for all your research. I was going on info from findmypast.co.uk; ancestry.com & scotlandspeople.gov.uk, but was getting late at night and was getting a bit sleepy so may have missed some exact details.
In your first message, what does OUC mean?
This is the birth data I have for Alexander McDonald from Scotlandspeople:
MCDONALD
ALEXANDER
ROBERT MCDONALD/JANET HARRIS FR153 (FR153)
M
20/04/1801
612/1
10 133
St Quivox
The following is from findmypast for Ann (Agnes) McLean (birth name Mary Ann) - can't seem to find it on scotlandspeople though
Mary Anne McLean
Scotland, Parish Births & Baptisms 1564-1929
Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Transcript of Mary Anne's record
Copy to clipboard
First name(s) Mary Anne
Father's last name McLean
Last name McLean
Father Occupation Weaver
Birth year 1807
Page 120
Birth date 16 May 1807
Archive Ref OPR 597/4
Baptism year -
Year Range 1820-1854
Place Kilmarnock
Item 4
County Ayrshire
Record set Scotland, Parish Births & Baptisms 1564-1929
Country Scotland
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Mother's first name(s) Jean
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Mother's last name Smith
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland
Father's first name(s) David
Here's the marriage from scotlandspeople:
MCDONALD
ALEXANDER
AGNES MCLEAN/FR2642 (FR2642)
15/09/1835
597/
110 163
Kilmarnock
the same marriage from findmaypast:
Alexander McDonald
Scotland, Parish Marriages & Banns 1561-1893
Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Transcript of Alexander's record
Year Range 1721-1819
Page 162
Record set Scotland, Parish Marriages & Banns 1561-1893
Banns Date 15 Sep 1835
First name(s) Alexander
Year Of Banns 1835
Last name McDonald
Spouse Residence Douglas Street
Marriage year -
Witness -
Spouse's first name Agnes
Item 1
Spouse's last name McLean
Archive Ref OPR 597/11
Residence Low Glencairn
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
County Ayrshire
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Country Scotland
Collections from Great Britain, Scotland
Place Kilmarnock
This is the info from findmypast for the 1841 census:
Alexander McDonald in 1841
1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census
St Marnock, Kilmarnock (Ayr), Ayrshire, Scotland
Household members (6 people)
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Alexander McDonald Male 40 1801 Scotland
Agnes McDonald Female 35 1806 Scotland
Hugh McDonald Male 11 1830 Scotland
Donald McDonald Male 9 1832 Scotland
Mary McDonald Female 2 1839 Ayrshire, Scotland
Neal Currie Male 25 1816 Scotland
the following is on findmypast for the 1851 census (obviously some of the info is wrong, ie. Alex born in Ireland & Mary's real age, which would have been 11):
Alex McDonald in 1851
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census
23, West Shaw Street, Kilmarnock (Ayr), Cunningham, Ayrshire, Scotland
Household members (10 people)
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Alex McDonald Head Married Male 49 1802 Steamer Ireland
Ann McDonald Wife Married Female 48 1803 - Argyllshire, Scotland
Hugh McDonald Son Unmarried Male 20 1831 Calico printer Argyllshire, Scotland
Mary McDonald Daughter Married Female 22 1829 Tailor jour Argyllshire, Scotland
Donald Thomson Lodger Unmarried Male 27 1824 Calico printer Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
William Johnston Lodger Unmarried Male 25 1826 Calico printer Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Alex McMillan Visitor Widower Male 43 1808 Calico printer Ayr, Ayrshire, Scotland
Elizabeth McMillan Visitor Unmarried Female 14 1837 - Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
Alexander McMillan Visitor - Male 10 1841 - Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
John McMillan Visitor - Male 7 1844 - Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, Scotland
It's under census returns on scotlandspeople as:
MCDONALD
ALEX
1851
M
49
597/ 21/ 20
Kilmarnock
Ayr
Hugh & Donald McDonald were born out of wedlock, so I think that's the reason why the births are not registered.
Also interesting to note that on Mary's birth registration, her father's occupation is given as Calico printer, as was given on her marriage certificate in North Melbourne for him. Also the 1851 census mentions Mary's occupation as "Tailor jour" and on her marriage cert it mentions her as a "dressmaker"
Now I am trying to find out what happened to Alexander and his wife Ann in Australia or New Zealand after the marriage in 1859!
-
The way you have pasted the marriage certificate into the reply box makes it difficult to read.
It is preferable that you take a little time to type details in a readable format.
What is the age of the bride?
Who were the witnesses please?
Sue
-
Where do you see the family name RUSSELL in Mary's ancestry?
Press 26 Aug 1918 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19180826.2.6?
Obituary for Mary McDonald McCAULL, died Aug 1918.
BDM VIC birth
3182/1860 MCCAULL Charles Nathanie ps Mary MCDONALD / Henry Michael @ Geel
BDM NZ birth
1862/13892 McCAULL Henry Michael ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1865/17046 McCAULL Kenneth Cameron ps Mary / Henry Michael
1867/27878 McCAULL Mary Catherine ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1871/37186 McCAULL Emily Sophia ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1874/43239 McCAULL Evan Alexander ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1877/4103 McCAULL Florence ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1881/16892 McCAULL Frederick Woods ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
1883/2829 McCAULL Edith ps Mary Russell / Henry Michael
BDM NZ death
1918/17363 McCAULL Mary Russell 79Y
Can you list all the information on this 1918 death certificate.
I do not see a Will for Henry Michael McCAULL or for wife Mary.
-
I am still unclear about the document you are looking at for 1859 marriage.
It is a transcription....all handwritten?
"Further info from certificate (all handwritten):.......witnesses: Alexander McDonald, Calico Printer (father); Ann McDonald (mother)"
The witnesses, Alexander McDONALD....after his name you see the word ...father?
Ann McDONALD.............after her name you see the word ....mother?
I have seen numerous marriage certificates for Victoria and other states. I do not recall seeing one where the witnesses are identified by their relationship to....anyone.
What certificates do you have for BDM events, Australia and New Zealand, for the family you are researching?
-
MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE WRITTEN DETAILS
date of marriage 21 Feb 1859
Henry Michael McCaull, 30, Geelong, architect: his witnesses: Michael McCaull, School master; Mary Ann McCaull
Mary McDonald, 19, Arden St North Melbourne, dressmaker: her witnesses: Alexander McDonald, Calico Printer (father); Ann McDonald (mother)
the marriage was solemnised as according to the James? of the Church of Scotland
in the presence of Alexander McDonald and Rev G Reed?
by James Sergeant? Officiating Minister
-
YES the certificate is all handwritten. I just pasted in some details from findmypast above that were in their index for the marriage.
yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the cerificate here..!
Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage.
-
I have the birth and marriage certificates/details for everybody on that marriage certificate ie. Aleander McDonald, Ann McDonald (nee McLean) and Mary McDonald herself. I don't have the one for Henry Michael McCaull as I am not researchhing that side of the family.
As stated, I am trying to find out what happened to Alexander and Ann after the wedding, and hope to get details of death certificates.
-
I am seeing that Mary and Henry McCAULL have several children. Mary has father Alexander, mother Ann/Agnes, brother Hugh, brother James.....but the only suggestion of these names is second name for (fourth?) son.
The name RUSSELL does not continue in the McCAULL family.
Does the name RUSSELL only appear after Mary's marriage, 1859?
Is Mary a RUSSELL who has come into the life of the McDONALD family?
"Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage."
If it was easy you would have found these people by now. It is not easy, and you need to know as much as you can about......everything in Mary's life.
BDM NZ death
1918/17363 McCAULL Mary Russell 79Y
Can you list all the information on this 1918 death certificate.
-
I'm sorry I'm out of my depth now. I don't have a death Cert for Mary Russell McCaull and I don't really have the money to throw around to get it. I was just lucky that some relatives gave me the marriage Cert.
As far as I know the Russell became part of her name after the marriage. There is certainly no Russell in the family pre the marriage. I don't know where it came from.
maybe will just have to give up on this one
-
Hi Barry,
Re: your post. What does OUC stand for?
The 1841 census has a column, which asks the question.
If born in Scotland state whether in County or elsewhere. =
Most enumerators wrote Y/ N - Yes/No blank/county
(Or if you are lucky the enumerator might have written where, as was the case with Mary)
A second column asks. If born in England, Ireland or Foreign = E/ I// F
I did see the 1851 census on freecen. I discounted it because place of birth for Alex & Mary also Mary is noted as married and no Donald. Not to mention Skye is in Invernessshire not Argyll.
West Shaw St. Kilmarnock, just the MCDONALD family less Lodgers
Alex Head M M 49 Steamer IRL -
Ann Wife M F 48 ARL Skye
Hugh Son U M 20 Calico Printer ARL Skye
Mary Dau M F 22 Tailor Journeyman ARL Skye
I checked the transcript on SP, whilst Alex 49 & Ann 48 seemed ok. Hugh was noted as 26 and Mary 22
None of this seemed to match the 1841 census. Have you seen the original 1841/ 1851 census returns?
The fact is there is a record in Ayrshire for the Marriage of Alexander & Agnes/Ann and a baptism for Mary 5/09/1840, noted as the 4th child. This last statement leads me to believe they might have been married earlier, prior to the births of Hugh & Donald. They may have moved to Ayrshire prior to the birth of Mary but they were not born in the county and indeed Alexander may have been born in Ireland.
How to prove it may be a little difficult.
Regards Colin
-
Hi again Colin,
Yes all very confusing.
It all comes down to digging into the facts behind a family legend that Mary is somehow related to the MacDonalds who rescued Bonnie Prince Charlie, Flora MacDonald. My uncle tells me she is related to a cousin of Flora's. This appears to be confirmed here in a clipping from the NZ "Women's Corner", an obituary for Mary:
Press 26 Aug 1918 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19180826.2.6?
This was kindly pointed out to me by someone down under, in the thread above
What puzzles me is that Mary as I have researched her, would appear to be Lowland Scots, if I have traced the records correctly.
There are only 2 other Mary McDonalds born around 1840, with a father by the name of "Alexander" and mother "Ann" that I could find in Scotland in the records. One migrated to and died in Canada, the other appears to have remained in Scotland and was married to a Scotsman in 1866 in North Uist by the time of Mary's marriage in Melbourne in 1859.
What does intrigue me is the 1851 census and your references to Skye. If they are a red herring or not. I don't know. The 1851 findmypast transcription shows most of them as from Argyllshire. I have been told that people were not always truthful when the census was taken, for whatever reason. I guess the census takers traveled the country and did not know the locals, so could not verify the information.
I'm currently out of credits on scotlandspeople, so will have to revisit that one with getting the original censuses
thanks again, Barry
-
Flora MacDonald; was a member of the MacDonald's of Sleat.
Born: 1722, Milton
Died: 5 March 1790, Kingsburgh
Place of burial: Kilmuir Cemetery
Spouse: Allan MacDonald (m. 17501790)
Known for: assisting Charles Edward Stuart after his defeat at the Battle of Culloden
Children: John Macdonald
Sadly none of the above is recorded on SP
From the information so far it looks possible that Ann/Agnes may have been born on Skye but if you look at the section headed Help & Advice on SP, scroll down to the records available section, I think you will find there no records for parishes on Skye before the early 1800s and no deaths before 1855 statutory registration.
If the boys were born on Skye the records might be there but I do not see any. It is possible that Ann/Agnes may have been married before, the marriage records I posted may add more information but it may simply say he married her?
ALEXANDER MCDONALD Married AGNES MCLEAN 9 NOVEMBER 1835 KILMARNOCK REFORMED PRESBYTERIAN
ALEXANDER MCDONALD To AGNES MCLEAN 15/09/1835 Banns maybe Kilmarnock
Good luck Colin
-
Marriage certificate, Melbourne 1859, McCAULL-McDONALD.....what do you see for birthplaces for Henry and Mary.
-
Hi there,
I am very NSW centric and for perhaps over 50 years I have been fascinated with what is (and is not) recorded on NSW marriage records, and the different levels of detail provided to members of the general public over those years by the Registrar General's Office (and its successors). Over the years I have noticed that sometimes some of the family history buffs who have a similar collection of copies of marriage records to me are aware of just how many documents have had additional information included on those copies, particularly when the documents are handwritten.
I am wondering if over time, if someone has shared a copy that has in turn been shared to others including to the person who then shared it with Baz ... and if that copy has had a family history buff write some details on that copy that were actually NOT on the actual record lodged with the Registrar General.
You see, I am concerned that there is possibly some information on the copy that has been given to baz201 that actually would not be required to be included by the deputy registrar. While I dont have a working knowledge of Victoria's BDM records, I do know that it would not actually be a requirement for the witnesses to be related to the bride or the groom, and further, there is no provision on the pre-printed form for either a church register or the BDM office copy of the registration for any explanation or relationship to be recorded about how or why the witnesses were chosen.
So I am astonished to read the following : YES the certificate is all handwritten. I just pasted in some details from findmypast above that were in their index for the marriage.
yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the cerificate here..!
Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage.
I can see that someone has kindly shared their copy with Baz201 :
I'm sorry I'm out of my depth now. I don't have a death Cert for Mary Russell McCaull and I don't really have the money to throw around to get it. I was just lucky that some relatives gave me the marriage Cert.
As far as I know the Russell became part of her name after the marriage. There is certainly no Russell in the family pre the marriage. I don't know where it came from.
maybe will just have to give up on this one
Sorry for the length of this post, but may I suggest that Baz considers taking a snip of that section of his copy of that m.c. and uploads that part so that my ancient rellies, including a retired Senior Officer with NSW BDM can study the image too. I anticipate that a snip of a section of an image of a document dated in the 1850s would not cause a copyright issue, as it would surely be for fair research and study.
I should also share the excellent thread that informs us all as to what to expect on those historic Vic BDM images ... particularly for the marriages. Here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html
JM
-
In reply to JM's request, I am posting the snippet from the document that was given to me from my relatives in NZ, which shows the marriage. I hope that, as JM suggests, I am not breaking the rules by doing so. I sincerely apologise to admin if so.
I have further learnt from ancestry.com that there is a document somewhere, either in the family or perhaps with the NZ Genealogy society or NZ National Library called the "McCaull family history document". I am going to see if I can hold of a copy of that somehow as it might provide some answers.
I am also going to write to the State Library of Victoria's family history section to see if they can trace the immigration records for the family, as the various ones I have seen are very hard to read.
Barry
-
Your reply #11 -
"....yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the certificate here..!"
- I see nothing on this section of the certificate to indicate that a parent of Mary McDONALD is present when she marries, 1859, Melbourne.
Mary being a minor, it is possible that there is a record of permission given by someone for her to marry. This would be recorded on the left hand side of the document, which is where you would also see birthplace recorded.
Do you have the rest of this document - the left hand side?
-
Yes, I have the section to the left. All it gives is a number
The date of the wedding is given on another wedding on the same day, but I don't want to post the entire document in case admin decide to punish me for doing so.
You say "
- I see nothing on this section of the certificate to indicate that a parent of Mary McDONALD is present when she marries, 1859, Melbourne."
Would it not be fair to say that the document reads "In the presence of us : Alexander McDonald X his mark"
It mentions above that Alexander McDonald is Mary's father
According to the "McCaull family history document" (which I have not seen but is referred to on Ancestry.com) in summary: Mary Age: 19 on Cert. Marriage mentioned in McCaull family history document, married at 99 Queensbury Street, N Melb, the home of Rev G. Reed. Her father, Alexander McDonald was witness to the marriage. Mary was a member of Presbyterian Church on Cert.
-
:)
Wivenhoe is spot on.
The words in brackets are not Father and Mother and are NOT part of the witness section. They ARE within the section giving the parents names, so the words in brackets are the maiden surnames for the groom's mum and the bride's mum.
I have had phone conversation with my ancient rellie, he says Wivenhoe always provides excellent comments and yes the LHS should explain who gave consent, afterall bride was 19.
Also huge Thank you to Barry for uploading that snip. There would likely be four entries on the full pdf, across two pages with reference numbers down the centre.
JM.
-
Hi Baz201
Hi Baz201
You have not left the headings of the columns (boxes) on you snip.
However I think I know them. ;D
Occupation
(Bridegroom) Architect
(Bride) Dessmaker
Age
(Bridegroom) 30
(Bride) 19
Residence of Each Party
(Bridegroom)- Present Geelong
(Bride) Present -Arden St North Melbourne
(Bridegroom)- Usual- Geelong
(Bride) Usuel -Arden- St North Melbourne
Name of Father and mothers Maiden name
(Bridegroom) Michael McCaull
Mary Ann McCaull (Farrar)
(Bride) Alexander McDonald
Ann McDonald (McLean)
Fathers Occupation
(Bridegroom) School Teacher
(Bride) Calico Printer
Witnesses were Alexander McDonald and Chas Reed /Beed
The other left hand section should show that the daughter was permitted to marry.
And I would guess by her father
-
Thankyou all
Here is the very top of the page that gives the categories on the certificate. It shows the top of the previous recorded marriage
I agree that it does not read mother and father but (McLean) and (Farrar) as sparrett suggested
I still hold that Alexander McDonald is mentioned as a witness, ie. "in the presence of us"
-
Hi Barry,
If you only have that sheet, you only have the right hand half of the document.
JM
-
Hi JM,
I have the entire document, both sides, but am reluctant to post the entire document as I got a warning a couple of years ago for posting an entire original document.
-
These are the headings for the right hand side of the document
-
I agree that Alexander was a witness to the marriage.
This gives us evidence that he was alive at the time of the marriage.
Can you look at the left side and see "with permission of"
Who is giving permission?
Mary was only 19
Sue
-
Upon request, this is the left side of the document ( I post in fear and trepidation )
update:I have removed the image in case it breaks the rules. I think most people will have seen it by now
-
Yes. The entire document is a double page image, with room for FOUR marriage registrations.
I have not asked you to upload the entire document, and I have read back through the thread and no one has asked you to upload the entire document.
The document allows four marriages to be registered on it. There is information across the two pages for each of those four pages.
The information matches the details in the informative thread to which I posted a live link. So on the Left hand side, some of info in boxes relevant to the LHS headings may provide info about where the bride was born, and where the groom was born, if he was a bachelor or a widow(er) and if so, if he had children of that earlier marriage and the date he became widowed.... and lots more family history to help you determine where to advance your quest about the bride's parents.
JM
-
:) thanks.
Please don't Be in fear or trepidation. Family History is not meant to be something to cause fear.
JM.
-
removed!
-
OK JM, here is the document as I have it. I am just concerned because of the "warning" I received in 2020 (above)
That full upload may be infringing RCHat rules. Best to unattach it.
JM
-
Does that mean to show that the bride was born Isle of Skye... .....
JM
-
Skye - yes possibly. I think she was actually born in Kilmarnock in 1840, but Colin suggests her parents were possibly from Skye, although records are sparse.
Her birth certificate (Kilmarnock, 5.9.1840) says her father, Alexander, was a "Calico Printer" and the marriage certificate also gives the same profession for him, Calico printer. I'm not going to post the birth certificate here. Please take my word for it. The birth certificate does not give places of birth for her parents
-
Is this your family...with business in Victoria, 1869?
Lyttleton Times 19 Jul 1869 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/LT18690719.2.3?
July 17 Rangitoto, s.s., 459 tons, Mackie, for Dunedin, Bluff, and Melbourne.
Passengers.... Mrs McCaull and four children.....
-
Very likely, yes. McCaull is such an uncommon name. She had 4 children by that stage plus one born at sea on 25 jun 1869, en route to Christchurch & Lyttleton according to my records.
Probably one of the children had stayed in NZ and not gone on the ship, the oldest child was 9 at that stage.
Thankyou for finding this. much appreciated
-
What children do you have for Henry Michael McCAULL and Mary McDONALD?
"one born at sea on 25 jun 1869, en route to Christchurch & Lyttleton"
......en route from....where?
-
These are all the children:
Birth of son Charles Nathaniel McCaull(18601929)
14 FEB 1860 Geelong, Victoria
Birth of son Henry Michael McCaull(18621884)
1 May 1862 Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Birth of son Kenneth Cameron McCaull(18651950)
17 February 1865 Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Birth of daughter Mary "Minnie" Catherine McCaull(18671934)
22 February 1867 Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Birth of daughter "Marcella" Jemima Copeland McCAULL(1869)
25 JUN 1869 At Sea from Levuka, Ovalau Island, Fiji and Lyttleton Canterbury NZ.
Birth of daughter Emily Sophia McCaull(18711950)
6 November 1871 Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Birth of son Evan Alexander McCaull(1874)
12 November 1874 Wellington, New Zealand
Birth of daughter Florence McCaull(18771945)
5 June 1877 Wellington, New Zealand
Birth of son Frederick Woods McCaull(18801881)
6 December 1880 Wellington, New Zealand
Birth of daughter Edith Alice McCAULL(18831916)
19 February 1883 Wellington, New Zealand
-
Star (Christchurch) 16 Jul 1869 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18690716.2.3.2?
..arrival "Jeannie Duncan" from Levuka 24 June....Mrs McCAUL of a daughter the day after leaving Levuka....
-
thankyou
-
How does one search for names of people/families who emigrated to Victoria, by assisted passage. We have established that her father was at the wedding in Melbourne.
Mary's marriage cert also states she was born on the "Isle of Sky " sic.
Other family members may have immigrated with her. We also know from the certificate her mother's maiden name was Ann McLean and her father's occupation was a calico printer.
I have a Sccotlandspeople.gov.uk birth record for a Mary McDonald b 8 Sep 1840 in Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, father, Alexander McDonald, occupation, Calico Printer and mother Ann McLean
The 1841 Kilmarnock census lists her and her family (+ 2 brothers, Hugh b 1830 and Donald b 1832) however all other members besides Mary are listed as born outside of Ayrshire, suggesting they may have recently arrived from Skye.
An 1851 census form from Kilmarnock has the following McDonald Family:
Alexander, age 49, occupation 'steamer', birth country Ireland
Ann, age 48, no occupation listed, birthplace Skye
Hugh, Age 20, occupation Calico printer, birthplace Skye
Mary, Age 22, occupation Tailor Journeyman, birthplace Skye
Mary's age is a bit puzzling here - she would have been about 11 at the time. However her occupation as 'tailor journeyman' fits with her occupation on her marriage certificate in Melbourne in 1859 "dressmaker". Maybe they lied to the census taker re her age, which I have seen happen on other census forms from North America.
The Calico printer seems to fit, son taking the father's occupation, (how common was a calico printer as an occupation in the day?) but what was a 'steamer"? - something to do with printing? Again, I think the place of birth Ireland could also be a lie, for whatever reason.
My suspicion is that if this is the correct family, they left sometime after that for Melbourne on assisted passage. They obviously were a working class family and wanted to broaden their horizons.
-
For your consideration-
There is nothing on the marriage certificate that shows the illiterate person named Alexander McDONALD was Mary's father.
I have not seen anything in available resources, to show that her father was ever in Melbourne.
A16/17 18/ or 19 year old Mary McDONALD may have traveled alone as an assisted passenger to Victoria at that time when there was a great shortage of marriageable women in the colony. She may have come with other relations.
Sue
-
Thanks Sue, I'll keep that in mind.
I thinkk I will have to contact family history at the State Library of Victoria
-
Thanks Sue, I'll keep that in mind.
I thinkk I will have to contact family history at the State Library of Victoria
What are you hoping they will have for you? ;D
-
I am on ereader, so cannot do live links.
Barry has started a thread on NZ board and there are replies.
Yes, unaccompanied minors came to the British colonies once convictism had effectively ceased in NSW in 1840ish. Many boys and girls were illiterate or semi literate, and, as in convict times, were able to practise their reading, writing and numbers on the voyages out, particularly if there were Sunday School teachers among passengers and or crew.
JM. Modified for poor spelling... one finger typiste this morning.
-
You need to be realistic about what is available to you in researching the origins of Mary McDONALD, married Victoria 1859.
The State Library of Victoria will not research your family for you. They will respond to a specific question eg. what records are available for passenger arrivals into Victoria?
What question will you ask?
"McCaull family history document" which you have found on a family tree will be a document that a researcher has written up and referenced on their submitted tree on Ancestry.
If it was a document held by a library etc. it would have a better title than just "family document".
BDM NZ birth
1869/10770 McCAUL Jemima Copeland parents Mary / Henry Millace
BDM NZ
1886/2910 Marcella McCAULL marr. William GOLDSMITH
It would be useful to your research if you can account for the children of Mary and Henry.
These two death records would be useful to you.
NZ BDM death
1894/1679 McCAULL Henry Michael 64Y
1918/17363 McCAULL Mary Russell 79Y
-
I think that it is reasonable to see this birth to be your family, with Henry Millace being a difficult transcription for Michael.
That gives two occasions where you see this family name as McCAUL, from sources independent of each other, and both relating to the birth of Jemima.
Do you see another occasion where this family is recorded as McCAUL?
BDM NZ birth
1869/10770 McCAUL Jemima Copeland parents Mary / Henry Millace
Star (Christchurch) 16 Jul 1869 p2
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS18690716.2.3.2?
..arrival "Jeannie Duncan" from Levuka 24 June....Mrs McCAUL of a daughter the day after leaving Levuka....
I think that it is possible that Mary McCAULL has returned to NZ from Fiji with someone. This person booked the passage for McCAUL, and registered the birth as McCAUL. This person is not a McCAULL. Who is this person?
Why is Mary in Fiji? And why, just a few weeks later, is Mary, new baby, and several children travelling to Victoria?
A printout of this 1869 birth certificate would be useful for your research.
-
Ok
And Baz202 is now AusFamily.
Oh Help.! ::)
OP, would you like the moderators to assist with the tangle. You need only ask I'm sure. ;D
I fear helpers in the team will find it all too challenging to have 3 or 4 usernames all seeking the same family information.
Sue