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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 19:07 GMT (UK)

Title: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 19:07 GMT (UK)
Hi all
I have posted recently regarding searching for the Father of my Gr Gr Gr grandfather Thomas Russell. I know his father is called John and was a nailer but despite searching repeatedly I am going round in circles. I wondered if anyone had any tips.  I am wondering how would I find any record relating to his birth or mother if maybe he was never baptised? He was married to Frances Russell in Tamworth at St Edithas church but all other trees I see that potentially could be for his family have a different Thomas or have father as a builder and not a nailer...I have all of his census entries from him living in Bilston after his marriage where he is an engine fitter except for 1841! I am literally pulling my hair out now, so if anyone can help Id greatly appreciate it.
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: CaroleW on Monday 15 November 21 19:21 GMT (UK)
Link to previous thread to avoid duplicated info

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=855111.msg7236527#msg7236527
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 19:24 GMT (UK)
Thankyou Carole, sorry for requesting twice but I genuinely cant fathom out where to move next.
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: panda40 on Monday 15 November 21 19:32 GMT (UK)
Sometimes the best thing to do is leave a brick wall for 6 months. Wait while more resources become available and then return to the problem with fresh eyes. Sometimes you go round and round in circles and miss the obvious.
The other thing you can try is researching siblings as this sometimes leads to clues in their information.
Regards
Panda
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 19:36 GMT (UK)
That might be the thing to do I guess. I am trying to ascertain who William and Louisa Allen are at the moment, they are witnesses on marriage document.   I have no idea who siblings are at all which is compounding the issue as I am struggling to find a work around for the problem, thanks for the advice though! I think that you may be right tbh.
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 15 November 21 19:37 GMT (UK)
Have you seen the John Rusell in Dudley in the 1851 census? A nailer aged 50, born Pelsall
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: Pheno on Monday 15 November 21 19:40 GMT (UK)
If you have all the census entries for Thomas from 1851 onwards, can you please let us have details of the birth dates and places recorded on each.

Pheno
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 19:41 GMT (UK)
Have you seen the John Rusell in Dudley in the 1851 census? A nailer aged 50, born Pelsall

Is his wife called Elizabeth?
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 19:50 GMT (UK)
If you have all the census entries for Thomas from 1851 onwards, can you please let us have details of the birth dates and places recorded on each.

Pheno
1851 Shelfield est Birth yr 1828 age 23
1861 Brownhills est birth yr 1826 age 35
1871 Ogley Hay est birth yr  1827 age 44
1881 Brownhills est Birth yr 1827 age 54
1891 Brownhills  es birth yr 1827 age 64

Died 1893 aged 66


many thanks

Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: hanes teulu on Monday 15 November 21 19:57 GMT (UK)
Just checking marriage
Thomas Russell, Jun Qtr 1846, Tamworth, vol 16 page 625 - on same page Frances Howell. Maria Russell born Sep Qtr 1856, Walsall - mother's maiden name Howell - on '61 Census. There's a Hannah Howell, mother**, widow, age 69, born Norton on the '51 Census.

How do you know Thomas' father's name is John? What's the source. Do you have the marriage cert - or is it from a tree you have checked out?

** this should probably be mother in law?
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: ShaunJ on Monday 15 November 21 20:01 GMT (UK)
Quote
Is his wife called Elizabeth?

Yes
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 20:06 GMT (UK)
Just checking marriage
Thomas Russell, Jun Qtr 1846, Tamworth, vol 16 page 625 - on same page Frances Howell. Maria Russell born Sep Qtr 1856, Walsall - mother's maiden name Howell - on '61 Census. There's a Hannah Howell, mother**, widow, age 69, born Norton on the '51 Census.

How do you know Thomas' father's name is John? What's the source. Do you have the marriage cert - or is it from a tree you have checked out?

** this should probably be mother in law?


Hannah Howell is his Wife Francis Mother.

I know father is John and nailer from marriage cert

thanks for the interest!
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: Pheno on Monday 15 November 21 20:08 GMT (UK)
There is an 1825 baptism in Bilston of a Thomas Russell to Robert & Rachael Russell.

Maybe a possibility if you have no documentary evidence of his father being John.

Pheno
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 20:12 GMT (UK)
Quote
Is his wife called Elizabeth?

Yes

Im just looking at them but I cant yet see a birth for a Thomas or find them after 1851 but will continue to look. thankyou
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Monday 15 November 21 20:19 GMT (UK)
There is an 1825 baptism in Bilston of a Thomas Russell to Robert & Rachael Russell.

Maybe a possibility if you have no documentary evidence of his father being John.

Pheno

thankyou for looking. I do have evidence of John.  Thomas states his father as being called John and a nailer at his wedding to francis
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: Ayashi on Tuesday 16 November 21 00:51 GMT (UK)
1841 for John and Elizabeth RUSSELL

Name:   John Russell
Age:   40
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1801
Gender:   Male
Civil Parish:   Dudley
Hundred:   Halfshire (Lower Division)
County/Island:   Worcestershire
Country:   England
Street Address:
Occupation:   
.
Registration District:   Dudley
Sub-registration District:   Dudley
Neighbors:   View others on page
Piece:   1196
Book:   5
Folio:   15
Page Number:   23
Household Members:   
Name   Age
John Russell   40
Elizabeth Russell   40
Susannah Russell   16
Sarah Russell   13
Joseph Russell   11
Maria Russell   6
Mary Ann Russell   3

Still no Thomas

~

Possible Thomas
Name:   Thomas Russel
Age:   15
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1826
Gender:   Male
Where Born:   Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish:   Dudley
Hundred:   Halfshire (Lower Division)
County/Island:   Worcestershire
Country:   England
Street Address:
Occupation:   
.
Registration District:   Dudley
Sub-registration District:   Dudley
Neighbors:   View others on page
Piece:   1196
Book:   10
Folio:   54
Page Number:   23
He is an apprentice in the household of Christopher DAVIES, who is a whitesmith.

~

Elizabeth's maiden name may have been HENDY (provided John Jr's age is slightly out in 1851...) but as yet I haven't found any possible marriage.

Per GRO
[Other census children born too early]
Mary Ann RUSSELL - 1839 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY
John RUSSELL- 1 qr 1844 - Dudley RD - mmn HANDEY

Other RUSSELL / HENDY children in Dudley
William RUSSELL - 1840 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - possible death 1840 aged 0
Elizabeth RUSSELL - 1841 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - possible death 1842 aged 0 among others
Ann RUSSELL - 1842 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - possible death 1841 aged 0
William RUSSELL - 1847 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - no idea about this one
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: dawnyj on Tuesday 16 November 21 07:06 GMT (UK)
1841 for John and Elizabeth RUSSELL

Name:   John Russell
Age:   40
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1801
Gender:   Male
Civil Parish:   Dudley
Hundred:   Halfshire (Lower Division)
County/Island:   Worcestershire
Country:   England
Street Address:
Occupation:   
.
Registration District:   Dudley
Sub-registration District:   Dudley
Neighbors:   View others on page
Piece:   1196
Book:   5
Folio:   15
Page Number:   23
Household Members:   
Name   Age
John Russell   40
Elizabeth Russell   40
Susannah Russell   16
Sarah Russell   13
Joseph Russell   11
Maria Russell   6
Mary Ann Russell   3

Still no Thomas

~

Possible Thomas
Name:   Thomas Russel
Age:   15
Estimated Birth Year:   abt 1826
Gender:   Male
Where Born:   Worcestershire, England
Civil Parish:   Dudley
Hundred:   Halfshire (Lower Division)
County/Island:   Worcestershire
Country:   England
Street Address:
Occupation:   
.
Registration District:   Dudley
Sub-registration District:   Dudley
Neighbors:   View others on page
Piece:   1196
Book:   10
Folio:   54
Page Number:   23
He is an apprentice in the household of Christopher DAVIES, who is a whitesmith.

~

Elizabeth's maiden name may have been HENDY (provided John Jr's age is slightly out in 1851...) but as yet I haven't found any possible marriage.

Per GRO
[Other census children born too early]
Mary Ann RUSSELL - 1839 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY
John RUSSELL- 1 qr 1844 - Dudley RD - mmn HANDEY

Other RUSSELL / HENDY children in Dudley
William RUSSELL - 1840 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - possible death 1840 aged 0
Elizabeth RUSSELL - 1841 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - possible death 1842 aged 0 among others
Ann RUSSELL - 1842 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - possible death 1841 aged 0
William RUSSELL - 1847 - Dudley RD - mmn HENDY - no idea about this one



did you find a birth for Thomas??  That all looks interesting, especially as the parents originate from Pelsall. When I looked for this family I couldnt find the parents on a census after 1851, I may look to see if they emigrated to Canada as some of Thomas' children did later on.  It may be that Thomas was left behind as he was married?? All guesswork but possible?  I  will try again and do some digging when I finish work later. many thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 16 November 21 08:35 GMT (UK)
thankyou for looking. I do have evidence of John.  Thomas states his father as being called John and a nailer at his wedding to francis

Don't forget that Thomas would not have had to give any proof that this information about his father was the truth.  He may not have known his fathers name or occupation
Title: Re: Help I have hit a wall!
Post by: Ayashi on Tuesday 16 November 21 09:22 GMT (UK)
did you find a birth for Thomas??

There would not be a birth certificate for Thomas, but I didn't find a matching christening. Then again, I couldn't find consistent christenings for the other children either.