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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Chris Kelly on Tuesday 16 November 21 13:17 GMT (UK)

Title: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Chris Kelly on Tuesday 16 November 21 13:17 GMT (UK)
I can't find any further information on Michael's parents. Michael was born in County Down Ireland (1863) and died in Burnley England in 1913.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 16 November 21 15:09 GMT (UK)
When & where did the marriage take place? if Ireland, England or Wales marriage certificate should list father's name & occupation (unless illegitimate) and if in Scotland names of both parents should appear on marriage certificate.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Chris Kelly on Tuesday 16 November 21 15:32 GMT (UK)
Yes I know his Father's name is also Michael and was an Iron Moulder and they were married in Burnley but I can't find any records of Michael Kelly the father.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 16 November 21 15:34 GMT (UK)
Have you ascertained when Michael Kelly came to England, what is the earliest that you have him on census there

ADDED One of the witnesses to the marriage was a Thomas Kelly
7 Apr 1894 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Michaelem Kelly
Georginam Mills
Groom's Father Michaelis Kelly
Bride's Father Georgii Mills
Witnesses Thomas Kelly & Anna Mills
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 16 November 21 15:47 GMT (UK)
Have you followed the Rafferty connection to find out more about Michael Kelly's family?

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Falls_Ward/Benares_Street/979221/
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1895/02219/1837538.pdf

Added- 1901 census says Michael Kelly & sister Margaret Rafferty both born County Antrim.
1911 census also says Michael Kelly born County Antrim.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Pottinger__part_of_/Kilmood_Street/221810/
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 16 November 21 16:16 GMT (UK)
I can't find any further information on Michael's parents. Michael was born in County Down Ireland (1863) and died in Burnley England in 1913.

I can't see a death in 1913 in Burnley on GRO, these are the nearest to that date

Death Mar qtr 1911 
KELLY    Michael    age 59   
Burnley reg dist    8e   136    

Death Sep qtr 1912 
Kelly    Michael    age 60   
Burnley reg dist    8e   286
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: CaroleW on Tuesday 16 November 21 16:21 GMT (UK)
Have you looked on the Irish 1901 for Michael Kelly senior?  He may have remained in Ireland.
See reply above - Michael jnr was not b County Down - where did you get that info from?

Michael jnr married 1894 but have you looked for him on earlier English censuses in case he is with family

EDIT - just realised Rosie had already asked question re earlier censuses
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Chris Kelly on Tuesday 16 November 21 17:01 GMT (UK)
1901 census - Margaret Rafferty (sister of Michael + her 2 children) and a widow were living with Michael jr and his family in Benares St. Belfast. Her 2 children had been born in England. The family appears to have been backwards + forwards to Burnley. Michael jr was married in Burnley in 1894.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 16 November 21 17:18 GMT (UK)
There are baptisms here https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ for children to John Rafferty and Margaret Kelly

Twins
Reuben John and Thomas 1884 - Godparents Michael,Kelly and Ann Rafferty
It looks as though they were baptised at home - Reuben being in danger of death, I think but my Latin was learned a long time ago.

Mary Ann Rafferty baptised 1886 - Godparents Thomas and Ann Kelly
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 16 November 21 19:05 GMT (UK)
Marriage of John Rafferty and Margaret Kelly 1884 Burnley (on Lancs opc)
Margaretís father - Michael Kelly
Johnís father - John

Added
Also Thomas Kelly married Annie Rafferty in 1886 Burnley
Parents as above - John Rafferty and Michael Kelly
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 16 November 21 19:45 GMT (UK)
I can't find any further information on Michael's parents. Michael was born in County Down Ireland (1863) and died in Burnley England in 1913.

From the marriage certificate, do you have Michael snrís occupation?
You have Michael, Thomas and Margaret from Burnley records.
There are several baptisms to Michael Kelly and Ellen McHugh (variations in spelling of that surname) - residence Ballyclare

The parish is here  https://registers.nli.ie/parishes?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=Greencastle+%28Diocese+of+Down+and+Connor%29

23rd January1859 - Thomas John Kelly
25th November 1860 - Margaret
28th December 1862 - Michael
27th November 1864 - Rose Mary
20th January 1867 - Ann

This looks like Annís civil birth record
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03501/2286494.pdf

Rose Maryís birth
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03576/2317675.pdf
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Pennines on Tuesday 16 November 21 19:50 GMT (UK)
A couple of other baptisms to Michael senior and Ellen McHugh, for what it's worth, seem to be;

Ellen 1869
Theresa 1871

ADDED - in many cases on the births of their children, one of the witnesses would be Margaret McHugh or Mary McHugh who may be sisters of Ellen (but could also be cousins or sisters in law. I only mention it just in case they are sisters).
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: MonicaL on Tuesday 16 November 21 20:04 GMT (UK)
There is a substantial family tree here for those with a subscription www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/174333708/person/102259065772/facts

Seems well researched and includes original certs and photos.

Monica
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 16 November 21 20:47 GMT (UK)
Oh thatís good - they have the same people  :)

However, it shows a death for Michael jnr in 1923, Belfast, but not verified, rather than Burnley.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Tuesday 16 November 21 20:55 GMT (UK)
Oh thatís good - they have the same people  :)
However, it shows a death for Michael jnr in 1923, Belfast, but not verified, rather than Burnley.

3 deaths for a Michael Kelly in 1923 for Northern Ireland counties (2 in Belfast) but certificates not online but can be viewed with a few credits from GRONI's website-
Michael   Kelly   21st January 1923   80   Newry
Michael   Kelly   31st January 1923   59   Belfast
Michael   Kelly   24th August 1923   68   Belfast
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Annette7 on Wednesday 17 November 21 02:34 GMT (UK)
A Michael Kelly bc.1864, death in June qtr. 1913 but in Bury, Lancashire (not Burnley).

Some trees I looked at have this as Michael Kelly's death.

Annette
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Pennines on Wednesday 17 November 21 09:32 GMT (UK)
But the family were in Ireland in 1911.

It would be worth spending some units looking at the GRONI website, firstly at the death of the 59 year old in Belfast 1923 - shown in aghadowey's post. Hopefully it would provide evidence with his occupation and maybe the name of the informant, dependant on who that was of course.



Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 November 21 10:44 GMT (UK)
1912- Kilmood St.: 44. Kelly, Michael, moulder
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/ijkcomplete1912.htm
1918- Alice Knowles at this address

Could this be Michael's wife (age matches with 1911 census)-
Burnley Express, 3 Dec.1938: KELLY. óOn the 1st inst., at 28, Simpson street, Georgina Kelly, aged 69 years. "RIP." Interment, Monday, Burnley Cemetery, cortege leaving home 1-45.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Pennines on Wednesday 17 November 21 11:15 GMT (UK)
Following on from the newspaper - grave details for Georgina (Lancs On Line Parish Clerk Site)

There was 1 match for this search!

Burial: 5 Dec 1938 Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Georgina Kelly -
    Age: 69yrs
    Abode: 28 Simpson Street
    Grave: A18228
    Gender: F
    Register: Burials 1933 - 1940, Page 239, Entry 110844
    Source: Original Registers Book 14


ADDED - There is no record of a Michael Kelly of the correct age being buried in Burnley Cemetery. There are many burial records for this cemetery on www.lan-opc.org.uk
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 17 November 21 15:07 GMT (UK)
Just seen this old post here on RC for Georgina Mills Kelly and her family www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=537847.0

Monica
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 17 November 21 15:13 GMT (UK)
These are the interments in the grave you found for Georgina, Pennines:

Grave: A18228   Burnley Cemetery, Burnley, Lancs.
Interments:
   Name - Age - Abode - Source - Register - Date buried
1   Theresa Emma Kelly- 15yrs - 24 Stock Street - Book 12 #90556 - 13 Apr 1922
2   Georgina Kelly - 69yrs - 28 Simpson Street - Book 14 #110844 - 5 Dec 1938
3   Arnold Ailbe Kelly - 68yrs - 8 Southey Street - Book 18 #142027 - 11 Jun 1981
4   Agnes Monica Bailey - Book 18 #146061 - 23 Mar 1995
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Burnley/Burnley/cemetery/graves_A17644-A18306.html

Monica
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Chris Kelly on Wednesday 17 November 21 15:39 GMT (UK)
I think this is all joining together.... Michael (1863-1913) + Georgina had 9 children: Michael George (my Grandfather), Patrick Joseph (became Mayor of Yeovil), Francis John, Gerard Finbar, Mary Ellen (twin), Elizabeth Anne (twin), Theresa Emma, Agnes Monica and Arnold Ailbe.

Michael was an Iron Moulder, died in Bury and his father also Michael was a Millwright Journeyman.

It's just progressing back through Michael the Millwright Journeyman
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 17 November 21 15:48 GMT (UK)
There is a Michael Kelly born abt 1862 living in Bury in 1911.

Do you have the death certificate for Michael?
I just wonder why he would be in Bury?
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 17 November 21 15:53 GMT (UK)
You could check this marriage in Catholic NLI Greencastle  (link given earlier)

20th September 1856
Michael Kelly and Ellen McGeogh

Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 November 21 16:03 GMT (UK)
There is a Michael Kelly born abt 1862 living in Bury in 1911.

Do you have the death certificate for Michael?
I just wonder why he would be in Bury?

If this is the same Michael Kelly in Bury in 1911 then he can be eliminated- born Bury, wife Mary, etc.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBQ-849
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 November 21 16:06 GMT (UK)
I think this is all joining together.... Michael (1863-1913) + Georgina had 9 children: Michael George (my Grandfather), Patrick Joseph (became Mayor of Yeovil), Francis John, Gerard Finbar, Mary Ellen (twin), Elizabeth Anne (twin), Theresa Emma, Agnes Monica and Arnold Ailbe.

Michael was an Iron Moulder, died in Bury and his father also Michael was a Millwright Journeyman.
It's just progressing back through Michael the Millwright Journeyman

It really helps if you post full details but earlier you said Michael's father Michael was also an iron moulder  :-\
Yes I know his Father's name is also Michael and was an Iron Moulder and they were married in Burnley but I can't find any records of Michael Kelly the father.

Since there is another Michael Kelly in Bury why do you think yours died there in 1913?
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Pennines on Wednesday 17 November 21 16:09 GMT (UK)
Michael and his family are definitely in Ireland in 1911 as had previously been established.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002184131/
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 November 21 16:13 GMT (UK)
Indeed, I posted the link to them in 1911 census in reply #4 but what I'm having trouble with is believing that this Michael Kelly (married to Georgina Mills & living in Belfast in 1911) is the one who died in Bury in 1913.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Pennines on Wednesday 17 November 21 16:28 GMT (UK)
I totally agree -- the one who died of the correct age (59) in Belfast, which you mentioned earlier, I think should be looked at - to either confirm or eliminate him. I almost feel like puchasing the units to view it myself.

Also the location of the births of children of Michael senior and Ellen, give their address as Ballyclare -- as does the marriage mentioned by Heywood.

Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 17 November 21 19:24 GMT (UK)
Sorry if I confused anyone, I posted the Bury question because I know Michael was in Belfast and that the Bury one would likely not be him because of the Irish and English census.
I agree that the Belfast death/s should be investigated   :)
I was rushing out at the time so maybe did not explain myself well.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 November 21 21:43 GMT (UK)
Another tidbit-
Burnley Express, 7 Dec.1938: Ö last Monday afternoon the funeral took place from her home, 28, Simpson-street, Burnley, of Mrs. Kelly, who was in her seventieth year. Born in Tongoo, India, Mrs Kelly came to reside in Burnley years ago, and at one time was employed at Messrs. Coupe's Hargher Clough Mills. She was very well known in the Ö
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:59 GMT (UK)

Burnley Express, 7 Dec.1938: Ö last Monday afternoon the funeral took place from her home, 28, Simpson-street, Burnley, of Mrs. Kelly, who was in her seventieth year. Born in Tongoo, India, Mrs Kelly came to reside in Burnley years ago,

Birthplace India matches information on the other thread about Georgina Mills, mentioned by Monica in reply #19.
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Wednesday 17 November 21 23:04 GMT (UK)
One more (youngest so far) child of Michael Kelly & Ellen McHugh- Monica?-
Monachy Kelly (9 Mar.1874 at 12 Theresa St., Belfast)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1874/03164/2160815.pdf

Possibilities from Belfast directories for father Michael since a daughter born 1874 in Belfast?
1877- Kelly, Michael, millwright, 38 Alfred Street
1880- Kelly, Michael, millwright, 38 Alexander Street West
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 18 November 21 18:44 GMT (UK)
There is a Michael Kelly born abt 1862 living in Bury in 1911.

Do you have the death certificate for Michael?
I just wonder why he would be in Bury?

If this is the same Michael Kelly in Bury in 1911 then he can be eliminated- born Bury, wife Mary, etc.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWBQ-849

A correction. Wife was Bridget. Mary was their eldest daughter. Parents + all children born in Bury.
Children's births registered in Bury North sub-district with mother's maiden surname Hall. Marriage Michael Kelly & Bridget Hall 1880 Bury Register Office or Registrar Attended. (Lancashire BMD)
Michael Kelly & Bridget Hall married at St. Joseph's R.C. Church, Bury 1880. Michael's father was Laurence. 10 children baptised at St. Joseph, Bury 1881-1904.
(LAN-OPC www.lan-opc.org.uk/Bury/Bury/index.html)
Definitely wrong Michael Kelly.
There were several men called Michael Kelly of a similar age in Bury district. One married a Kelly bride, daughter of another Michael Kelly. 2 men named Michael Kelly, born c.1860, died at Prestwich Asylum near Bury.
(Lancashire OPC www.lan-opc.org.uk)
 
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Pennines on Thursday 18 November 21 19:13 GMT (UK)
Maiden Stone -- I think you can now safely go on Mastermind, answering questions on the Michael Kellys of Bury!!
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: heywood on Thursday 18 November 21 19:25 GMT (UK)
Well said Pennines.  :) It does illustrate how confusing research can be and the necessity of certificates etc.

Hopefully Chris will pop back and let us know.  :)
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: aghadowey on Thursday 18 November 21 19:46 GMT (UK)
Thanks for correcting my earlier post, Maiden Stone. Will put any errors down to exhaustion as contents of a 3 bedroom house is being squeezed into our already full house and I'm packing up my lovely spacious office to get a little desk in corner of bedroom (fingers crossed there will actually be internet reception there!).
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 18 November 21 20:59 GMT (UK)
Pennines  ;D I could make my Mastermind specialist subject even more specialist "Michael Kellys of Bury who married women named Bridget". 2 of them did that in 1880.
Added. Actually I might get a basic question wrong - the number of children. Birth registrations and baptisms didn't match. Both were in double figures. "Around a dozen" won't be an acceptable answer on Mastermind.
The Kelly families were parishioners of the same church as my GF and his future 1st wife, both of whom were Irish. Family of one of my aunts-by-marriage, also Irish, were parishioners too. None of them married a Kelly. 

 On a serious note, a woman with my names died at Prestwich Asylum (the sole bearer of my names to die in the district in 50 years). She was born around the same time as one of the men named Michael Kelly who died in the asylum. There was a high incidence of mental illness among Irish people who settled in Lancashire in the 19th century.

You're forgiven a minor slip aghadowey, especially in the circumstances.  :)   
Title: Re: Michael Kelly married to Georgina (nee Mills) in 1894.
Post by: Chris Kelly on Saturday 20 November 21 11:55 GMT (UK)
Thank you for your advice and guidance, I'm slowly getting there.... 8 generations of Michael Kelly so far!!!