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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: dotty on Wednesday 17 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK)

Title: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: dotty on Wednesday 17 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK)
Any help please on further information on Joannes Carlus Rowan baptised in 1888 at St Anne's Ancoats Manchester  mother Helenae.I am interested if there is a father named,godparents and if an address is shown.From the 1939 records John's birthdate was 5th November 1888.
Many thanks
Dotty
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 17 November 21 09:59 GMT (UK)
Do you not have him in the intervening years?
Is there a father named on his marriage certificate?
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: BumbleB on Wednesday 17 November 21 10:07 GMT (UK)
I can't see a birth registration in England and Wales in December quarter 1886 - December quarter 1889 for a person of that name.
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Kay99 on Wednesday 17 November 21 17:43 GMT (UK)
For ref was John Rowan listed in 1901 as b 1889 Manchester and visiting his aunt Catherine and family in Shifnal Shropshire  :-\  https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSQW-GWM and 1911

Kay
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 17 November 21 18:21 GMT (UK)
Any help please on further information on Joannes Carlus Rowan baptised in 1888 at St Anne's Ancoats Manchester  mother Helenae.I am interested if there is a father named,godparents and if an address is shown.

What's your source for that information?
Baptism registers St. Anne, Ancoats at Lancashire Archives. Ancoats is under Manchester in the Catholic section of "Church Registers Guide" to holdings in the Archives.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67383/M.pdf
 
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: dotty on Wednesday 17 November 21 18:33 GMT (UK)
Thanks everyone for replying.I think that John may have been the illigimate son of Helen[ellen].Helen I think was Catherine Burgoyne sister and if my facts are right she was born29/11/1873  in Shropshire daughter of James and Mary Rowan[nee Callaghan] census show the parents came from County Mayo.I can't find John or Ellen on the 1891 but 1901 and 1911 he is with the Burgoynes  but at the moment not found Ellen.I was just hoping the actual baptism may reveal more info.
Many thanks to all

Dotty
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: dotty on Wednesday 17 November 21 18:38 GMT (UK)
Maiden Stone
I just googled Manchester Roman Catholic Record and I think it was under Manchester family history society
Thanks for your interest

Dotty
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 17 November 21 18:42 GMT (UK)
   daughter of James and Mary Rowan[nee Callaghan] census show the parents came from County Mayo.I can't find John or Ellen on the 1891 but 1901 and 1911 he is with the Burgoynes  but at the moment not found Ellen.I was just hoping the actual baptism may reveal more info.

Have you tried possible variants on the surname such as Ruane or Ryan?
Was the information you gave about the baptism from a transcript?
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Pennines on Wednesday 17 November 21 18:45 GMT (UK)
But Dotty, where did you obtain the information that you have quoted for his baptism please?

As BumbleB says - there does not seem to be a birth registration for anyone of that name.

Also - the parish registers for St Anne's RC Church are definitely held at Lancashire Archives. I have just checked. Maybe Manchester Family History Society also have some - I don't know about that.

See: https://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/calmview/advanced.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog

and just check the RC parishes list.
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 17 November 21 19:21 GMT (UK)

Also - the parish registers for St Anne's RC Church are definitely held at Lancashire Archives. I have just checked. Maybe Manchester Family History Society also have some - I don't know about that.

See: https://archivecat.lancashire.gov.uk/calmview/advanced.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog

and just check the RC parishes list.


Baptism registers St. Anne, Ancoats at Lancashire Archives. Ancoats is under Manchester in the Catholic section of "Church Registers Guide" to holdings in the Archives.
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67383/M.pdf
 

Baptism registers of St. Anne, Ancoats in Lancashire Archives according to "Church Registers Guide":
 original registers 1845-1920
 copies 2848-1874 & 1875-1939

Manchester Ancestors, Manchester & Lancashire Family History Society
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records/register-index
Baptism register 1848-1875 transcribed & indexed & printed.
The website has been renamed & relaunched since I've used it in the past. The full database is only accessible to members. There might be more registers transcribed and indexed on it. I seem to remember that the list of churches with dates of registers was longer on the old website. That might be where Dotty got the information from.
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: dotty on Wednesday 17 November 21 20:29 GMT (UK)
Bap   ROWAN   Helenae   1888   Mother of: Joannes Carolus ROWAN at Manchester, Ancoats, St. Anne

mlfhs.uk.databases/catholic-records/results

This is what I found I too can't find a civil registration

Thanks

Dotty   
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Pennines on Thursday 18 November 21 10:12 GMT (UK)
Dotty - that reads as though it's a baptism for Helen -- not for her son.

I am just wondering (pure supposition of course) whether she had converted to the RC faith -- was there an actual date please (as opposed to just a year)?
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: heywood on Thursday 18 November 21 10:24 GMT (UK)
Pennines, here is the link to the site
https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records

The event is Baptism - Latin - two records
1888
Helenae - mother of Joannes Carolus Rowan

Joannes Carolus Rowan - baptised St Anne

Sometimes, you can find Godparents if they are family members by this method.
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: heywood on Thursday 18 November 21 10:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks everyone for replying.I think that John may have been the illigimate son of Helen[ellen].Helen I think was Catherine Burgoyne sister and if my facts are right she was born29/11/1873  in Shropshire daughter of James and Mary Rowan[nee Callaghan] census show the parents came from County Mayo.I can't find John or Ellen on the 1891 but 1901 and 1911 he is with the Burgoynes  but at the moment not found Ellen.I was just hoping the actual baptism may reveal more info.
Many thanks to all

Dotty

I have reservations about this Ellen.
There are two Rowan families - James and Mary (Callaghan), Wolverhampton and John and Winifred (Kelly), Shropshire (mainly). Both have daughters Catherine and Ellen.
Catherine Burgoyne shows born abt 1866, Shifnal in 1901.

1871 2746 /136/3 Shifnal
The Roan family
Ellen 10 yrs
Catherine 8 yrs

I canít see Ellen with the family, or anywhere in 1881 but in 1891 2097/164 she is back with John and Winifred.
To confuse matters her birth was registered in Wolverhampton.

There is no sign of John Charles Rowan.

There is a death in 1893, Shifnal for Helen Rowan, 32 yrs (abt 1862).

As it is quite confusing, this might not be your family but perhaps worth noting.
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Pennines on Thursday 18 November 21 10:52 GMT (UK)
Oh thank you Heywood for that link.

I noticed that on searching baptisms for Rowan in 1888 - amongst the results there were only mothers' (or godmothers) listed, except for Joannes Carolus.

The other mothers were mothers of children with a different surname. The fathers were listed on a separate record under their surname.

So the only one where the mother had the same surname as the child was Helenae Rowan. So ignore my supposition from Dotty's post about the baptism being for Helenae - there WAS another entry for Joannes' baptism.
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Kay99 on Thursday 18 November 21 13:12 GMT (UK)
Thanks everyone for replying.I think that John may have been the illigimate son of Helen[ellen].Helen I think was Catherine Burgoyne sister and if my facts are right she was born29/11/1873  in Shropshire daughter of James and Mary Rowan[nee Callaghan] census show the parents came from County Mayo.I can't find John or Ellen on the 1891 but 1901 and 1911 he is with the Burgoynes  but at the moment not found Ellen.I was just hoping the actual baptism may reveal more info.
Many thanks to all

Dotty

I have reservations about this Ellen.
There are two Rowan families - James and Mary (Callaghan), Wolverhampton and John and Winifred (Kelly), Shropshire (mainly). Both have daughters Catherine and Ellen.
Catherine Burgoyne shows born abt 1866, Shifnal in 1901.

1871 2746 /136/3 Shifnal
The Roan family
Ellen 10 yrs
Catherine 8 yrs

I canít see Ellen with the family, or anywhere in 1881 but in 1891 2097/164 she is back with John and Winifred.
To confuse matters her birth was registered in Wolverhampton.

There is no sign of John Charles Rowan.

There is a death in 1893, Shifnal for Helen Rowan, 32 yrs (abt 1862).

As it is quite confusing, this might not be your family but perhaps worth noting.

I agree with Heywood and was typing up a reply when I had to go for my Covid booster. 
It is also confusing that John and Winifred's surname is recorded with many variations  including I think the births of Catherine and Ellen below

ROHAN,  CATHERINE     mmn KELLEY     
GRO Ref: 1864  M Qrtr  SHIFFNAL  Volume 06A  Page 645

RUHORN, ELLEN   mmn KELLY
GRO Reference: 1860  D Quarter in WOLVERHAMPTON  Volume 06B  Page 402

In 1881 their surname is transcribed as Ruhan on Anc and 1861 it is transcribed as Reman on FindMyPast

Kay
Title: Re: baptism records John Charles Rowan 1888
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 18 November 21 18:07 GMT (UK)
Oh thank you Heywood for that link.

The other mothers were mothers of children with a different surname. The fathers were listed on a separate record under their surname.
So the only one where the mother had the same surname as the child was Helenae Rowan.

Thanks from me, heywood. The website has changed since I used it in the past.
Helen having the same surname as her son lends weight to Dotty's supposition that she wasn't married to his father. Catholic baptism registers at the time generally include the mother's maiden surname for married parents.