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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: goldie61 on Wednesday 17 November 21 10:36 GMT (UK)

Title: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Wednesday 17 November 21 10:36 GMT (UK)
This is from the Amiens Saint Firmin a la Porte register for 1660.
(For those who have been kind enough to previously help trace this journey, a Claude Bertelemy Bertole obtained an 'ordinance' from Amiens to marry some years after this).
It is transcribed as 'Bertol', though it looks to me more like 'Bertel'.

I have:
Le 19d sur baptizee Suzanne fille de Claude
Bertol Re? General de huit ? dix
huit ? de picardie, et de damoiselle Suzanne
le doux. P le sieur Andre Roussel M damoiselle
Gabrielle Godin


I'd be grateful if somebody could fill in the blanks, and explain what this is saying about Claude.
Thank you.
 






 
Title: Re: Claude Bertelemy Bertole French baptism
Post by: teragram31510 on Wednesday 17 November 21 15:05 GMT (UK)
My offering:

Le 19e fut baptizée Suzanne fille de Claude Bertol R?????? G?????  ?? huit livres dix huit sols de Picardie, et de damoiselle Suzanne le doux. p (=parrain) le sieur André Roussel, m (= marraine) damoiselle Gabrielle Godin

I'm not at all expert in 17th century French handwriting but if the thing that looks like a V crossed through is an R then the word after Bertol certainly begins with an
R and the following with a G but I don't think it is 'General'.

The child Suzanne was baptised on the 19th December 1660 and it looks like a payment was involved? Do the other records on the page look like they involve payments? The godfather's and godmother's names are also given.

Sorry not to be more help.

Title: Re: Claude Bertelemy Bertole French baptism
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 17 November 21 20:13 GMT (UK)
I think it reads like this. One would normally expect the occupation following the name of the father. Here is stated general receiver of 8 livres 18 sols of Picardie. I don't know if this was a lot of money and why it is mentioned here. Are there more entries in this register with similar phrases?
Other way of explaining this: Maybe Claude had no occupation and received yearly this amount of money (if this should be a substantial income)?

Le 19e fut baptizée Susanne fille de Claude
Bertol Receveur General des huict livrez dix
huict solz de Picardie, et de damoiselle Susanne
Ledoux. P(arrain) le sieur André Roussel, m(arraine) damoiselle
Gabrielle Godin.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Wednesday 17 November 21 21:41 GMT (UK)
Thanks teragram and Zefiro.

How very interesting.
I can't see any others on this page of about 16 baptisms that give any amounts of money, so it doesn't look like a fee of some kind.
It does look like  payment he receives as you suggest.

There are one or two other that include 'demoiselle' for the mother - would I be right in assuming they would not have been married to the father? The other entries give a straightforward name of the father and then the mother.

This entry is another one that has more information about this father, - there are only a couple with extra information given, but I can't see any mention of money.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:11 GMT (UK)

There are one or two other that include 'demoiselle' for the mother - would I be right in assuming they would not have been married to the father? The other entries give a straightforward name of the father and then the mother.


No, you'd make a mistake.
Under the Ancien Régime, demoiselle (damoiselle) could be a title of nobility, but was above all a title of civility, the use of which from the 17th century onward meant that all women, married or not, of good descent or being wed to the 'right' person were adorned with it. Examples are daughter or wife of officers of all kinds, bourgeois, merchants or certain tradesmen ...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoiselle
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:29 GMT (UK)
Thanks Zefiro.
So she would either be 'demoiselle' in her own right, or because she was married to Claude Bertole who was of a certain class or rank?
Even more interesting!
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: GR2 on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:36 GMT (UK)
He is not receiving the money for himself. A Receiver General is an official appointed to receive money for the crown or government. The sum must refer to some kind of tax or impost which he collects.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: Zefiro on Wednesday 17 November 21 22:37 GMT (UK)
Thanks Zefiro.
So she would either be 'demoiselle' in her own right, or because she was married to Claude Bertole who was of a certain class or rank?
Even more interesting!

Exactly!
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Wednesday 17 November 21 23:01 GMT (UK)
He is not receiving the money for himself. A Receiver General is an official appointed to receive money for the crown or government. The sum must refer to some kind of tax or impost which he collects.
Thanks GR2. More and more interesting!
Do you think he would have been based in Amiens, or at least Picardy, or could his job have been one that involved travelling round the country to collect this tax? Wikipedia suggests the Receiver General of the Treasury nowadays is a very high ranking post in Paris.
No other entries come up for Bertol baptisms in Amiens - but that's not to say there's not something there. The name has so many variations.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: GR2 on Thursday 18 November 21 09:13 GMT (UK)
It would really take an expert in 17th century France to answer that. He is not THE Receiver General, but receiver general for one particular thing.

I have ancestors who were joint custumars in Edinburgh, responsible for collecting the customs at the port of Leith. They were responsible, but the day-to-day work was done by a servant. Every year, they or their servant submitted their accounts to auditors for approval and they received a fee based on the amount of money collected. They made far more money from their on-going trading ventures with Flanders.

I was able to follow their periods of appointment and work through the Accounts of the Lord High Treasurer. There may well be a similar surviving French record. The thing to do would be to find out exactly what he is collecting.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Thursday 18 November 21 11:03 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure if this really helps but I have found a Suzanne BERTHIE daughter of Claude BERTHIER, receveur de l'abbaye de Corbie and Suzanne LEDOUX who married Antoine BOISSEL on 24 April 1679  Amiens - St Firmin de la Porte.  This could be the Suzanne born in 1660, in which case either the younger Suzanne was adopted by Claude Berthier or there is an error in her baptism record.  So far I haven't found the marriage of Claude Berthier and Suzanne Ledoux, but their son, Claude, was baptised on 4 June 1662 in the same parish.

Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Thursday 18 November 21 15:51 GMT (UK)
Other baptism entries say Claude Berthier is "Commissaire aux vivres" which seems to be borne out by the footnote 24  on page 207 of this book:
https://books.google.fr/books?id=pKnyCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA207&lpg=PA207&dq=claude+berthier+receveur+g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral+des++vivres+d%27amiens&source=bl&ots=MRcuYQkD8r&sig=ACfU3U3Mq_K8vbUsml2uSSW9fr9BJ7LG5w&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjD9q68naL0AhXsBGMBHYhlAZYQ6AF6BAgQEAM#v=onepage&q=claude%20berthier%20receveur%20g%C3%A9n%C3%A9ral%20des%20%20vivres%20d'amiens&f=false
It would seem that his job as "receveur de l'Abbaye de Corbie" was a side-line in addition to his main job.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 18 November 21 21:40 GMT (UK)
Many thanks for your information GR2 and jayaygee.
It would indeed seem he had some different jobs in Amiens.
There's a mention of him in a book on Geneanet:
"Lettres de provision a Claude Berthier de l'office de sergent des aides et tailles en l'election d'Amiens......."
Google translate helpful translates this to the 'sergeant of aids and sizes', which loses something in the translation! Any ideas what it really means?
Although most of the records show him as 'Berthier', there is that one of the baptisms of 1660 that spells it 'Bertol'. Very interesting.
I found a burial records of Susanne le doux in September 1684.
It gives her husband as 'Berthier', but I can't see the name Claude there. Perhaps it is a title of some sort? I'd be grateful is someone could transcribe this. Thanks.
Not found his burial though.

Thanks again for your interest in this.
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: manukarik on Thursday 18 November 21 22:31 GMT (UK)
Sergent des tailles. Sergent chargé du recouvrement des impôts. Le Conseil du roi fixe annuellement le montant de la taille (...). Les collecteurs, ou sergents des tailles, établissent enfin la cote de chaque taillable (GDEL, s.v. taille).

In other words, he was responsible for collecting taxes and if you look at the link below, customs.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Aids (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_of_Aids) so aides refers to customs (or public finance).

Cour des aides. Ancienne cour instituée sur l'initiative des États généraux de 1355, érigée en cour souveraine au xve siècle pour trancher le contentieux en matière d'impôts, pour juger en dernier ressort et entre toutes personnes de tous procès tant civils que criminels au sujet des aides, gabelles, tailles et autres impositions. Elle fut supprimée en 1790 ainsi que toutes les autres institutions judiciaires de l'Ancien régime. Les attributions des anciennes cours des aides sont aujourd'hui dévolues au Conseil d'État sous le rapport administratif et aux tribunaux ordinaires sous le rapport civil correctionnel et criminel
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 18 November 21 22:40 GMT (UK)
Thanks very much manukarik.
Back to a tax collector again! I bet he was popular!!  ;)
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 19 November 21 20:27 GMT (UK)
Was anyone able to make out what it says between 'Susanne le doux' and 'Berthier' at the start of the next line, in the clip of Susanne's burial in reply #12 above?

Many thanks
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: jayaygee on Friday 19 November 21 20:43 GMT (UK)
I think it says :

"...à son décès f(emm)e de m(onsieu)r..."
Title: Re: Bertol French baptism
Post by: goldie61 on Friday 19 November 21 20:58 GMT (UK)
Ah! Many thanks jayaygee.