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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: riannisuileabhain on Wednesday 24 November 21 20:43 GMT (UK)

Title: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: riannisuileabhain on Wednesday 24 November 21 20:43 GMT (UK)
hi, my ancestors were married in 1894 and the "denunciations" section of the record has the word "three" written into the box. im aware that denunciations refer to impedements to the marriage but have no idea what three could mean in that context. if anyone could give me a hand it would be appreciated, thanks!
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: goldie61 on Thursday 25 November 21 00:46 GMT (UK)
Third degree of consanguinity?
ie they were related by a common ancestor 3 generations before.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: horselydown86 on Thursday 25 November 21 01:42 GMT (UK)
Third degree of consanguinity?
ie they were related by a common ancestor 3 generations before.

Can you please check whether the column heading is Dispensations rather than Denunciations?

The word dispensation is normally associated with consanguinity concerns.  If the heading is Dispensations, then the reason is almost certainly as Goldie has outlined.

ADDED:

The heading may be in Latin, so post a clip if unsure.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: riannisuileabhain on Thursday 25 November 21 12:55 GMT (UK)
Third degree of consanguinity?
ie they were related by a common ancestor 3 generations before.

Can you please check whether the column heading is Dispensations rather than Denunciations?

The word dispensation is normally associated with consanguinity concerns.  If the heading is Dispensations, then the reason is almost certainly as Goldie has outlined.

ADDED:

The heading may be in Latin, so post a clip if unsure.


the heading definitley says denunciations, multiple of the columns under denunciations have "disp" under them which i can only assume is short for dispensation, i attached a photo for context.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 November 21 13:12 GMT (UK)
Three sets of Banns?
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: horselydown86 on Thursday 25 November 21 13:36 GMT (UK)
Thanks for posting the photo.  In Latin denuntiationes (plural) has this range of meanings:

announcement/notification/indication; warning/threat; denunciation/allegation;
declaration (war); injunction; admonition; summons, formal legal notice;


If we consider the meaning to be announcements or notices, minus the pejorative sense prevalent in the English definition, then an entry of Three seems likely to refer to banns (as heywood has suggested).

However I'm only speculating.  You need an answer from someone with expertise in these records.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: sandiep on Thursday 25 November 21 13:39 GMT (UK)

Denuntiationes – denunciations (refers to if there are any impediments to a marriage)

there appears to be lots of impediments!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impediment_(Catholic_canon_law)#List_of_diriment_impediments_to_marriage
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 November 21 13:50 GMT (UK)
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: riannisuileabhain on Thursday 25 November 21 14:48 GMT (UK)
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.


im quite new to interpreting these marriage certs, what would three sets of banns imply? thank you all for your help so far! :)
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: horselydown86 on Thursday 25 November 21 14:54 GMT (UK)
That's a useful image, heywood.

The entry in the Impedimentum column for No 93 is what we see when the dispensation is for consanguinity - in this case, dispensation for a second and second degree of consanguinity.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: heywood on Thursday 25 November 21 15:03 GMT (UK)
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.


im quite new to interpreting these marriage certs, what would three sets of banns imply? thank you all for your help so far! :)

Explanation here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: riannisuileabhain on Thursday 25 November 21 23:51 GMT (UK)
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.


im quite new to interpreting these marriage certs, what would three sets of banns imply? thank you all for your help so far! :)

Explanation here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage

Very interesting, thank you so much!
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 26 November 21 00:12 GMT (UK)
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.

I agree with heywood.
 I've never seen degrees of consanguinity or affinity written as "three" or "tres". They are always written as 2 sets of numerals, the first for the groom, the second for the bride. 
The marriage register in heywood's link is from Dublin. I think incidences of consanguinity were likely to be much less there than in a country parish.

This is a marriage register from a rural parish in Mayo where choice of spouse was more limited. Basically almost everyone was related to a Duffy, a Horan or a Moran.  :)
There were 32 weddings March 1856-Feb. 1857 of which 10 had a note about consanguinity or affinity.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/6/mode/1up
Weddings 1861-2. As well as notes about consanguinity/affinity, see note for entry 20 right-hand page, marriage of Patrick Boulton & Elenora Duffy "Boulton from Teleha (?) was obliged to pay Rev. W. Mc_ _ _ _  5 shillings for dispensation in banns and paid me 5-6 for my B_ _ _"
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/13/mode/1up
1862 marriages continue on the next page. Entry 30 at top of the page is a couple who were related 
 2x3 by consanguinity and 3x3 by affinity.
Another common reason for dispensation is marriage in a forbidden time e.g. Lent or Advent. An example is entry 33 in March 1861.

Did the couple who married in 1894 leave Ireland shortly after the wedding? Imminent emigration might have been a reason for dispensing with banns. Was the bride pregnant? That could be another reason.


Denuntiationes – denunciations (refers to if there are any impediments to a marriage)

there appears to be lots of impediments!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impediment_(Catholic_canon_law)#List_of_diriment_impediments_to_marriage


Arranging the death of a spouse to be free to marry another is a serious impediment. I doubt there would be a dispensation for that.

 
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: riannisuileabhain on Friday 26 November 21 00:36 GMT (UK)
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.

I agree with heywood.
 I've never seen degrees of consanguinity or affinity written as "three" or "tres". They are always written as 2 sets of numerals, the first for the groom, the second for the bride. 
The marriage register in heywood's link is from Dublin. I think incidences of consanguinity were likely to be much less there than in a country parish.

This is a marriage register from a rural parish in Mayo where choice of spouse was more limited. Basically almost everyone was related to a Duffy, a Horan or a Moran.  :)
There were 32 weddings March 1856-Feb. 1857 of which 10 had a note about consanguinity or affinity.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/6/mode/1up
Weddings 1861-2. As well as notes about consanguinity/affinity, see note for entry 20 right-hand page, marriage of Patrick Boulton & Elenora Duffy "Boulton from Teleha (?) was obliged to pay Rev. W. Mc_ _ _ _  5 shillings for dispensation in banns and paid me 5-6 for my B_ _ _"
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/13/mode/1up
1862 marriages continue on the next page. Entry 30 at top of the page is a couple who were related 
 2x3 by consanguinity and 3x3 by affinity.
Another common reason for dispensation is marriage in a forbidden time e.g. Lent or Advent. An example is entry 33 in March 1861.

Did the couple who married in 1894 leave Ireland shortly after the wedding? Imminent emigration might have been a reason for dispensing with banns. Was the bride pregnant? That could be another reason.


Denuntiationes – denunciations (refers to if there are any impediments to a marriage)

there appears to be lots of impediments!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impediment_(Catholic_canon_law)#List_of_diriment_impediments_to_marriage


Arranging the death of a spouse to be free to marry another is a serious impediment. I doubt there would be a dispensation for that.

 

The couple married on 22 July (? not sure if theres any catholic holidays then), they did not emigrate anytime after the marriage but i think the bride mightve been about 2 months pregnant at the time. Its very interesting that there was so many limitations to marriage back in the day, thank you so much for your help!
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: heywood on Friday 26 November 21 05:19 GMT (UK)
From Maiden Stone:
Did the couple who married in 1894 leave Ireland shortly after the wedding? Imminent emigration might have been a reason for dispensing with banns. Was the bride pregnant? That could be another reason.”

This couple, though, in the original post, has ‘three’ written in the box, so presumably followed the usual procedure of Banns.
If my memory is correct, I think our Banns were posted on the church notice board but that was fifty years ago  :)
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: Shay123 on Saturday 25 December 21 14:59 GMT (UK)
Hello,
I have the same issue,
normally the dispensation is given for the degrees of family relatedness - consanguinity and affinity (generation difference since the last marriage of the families).
Impediments in the parish register for St Andrews in Dublin is in a different column from denuntiation and in the denuntiation column is written a variety of abbreviations. Disp is the most common, another has a V and what looks like a number 8, a few have a Tres or Tris (closed e?) which presumably is in Latin and = three.
The Banns in English churches were read three times in church on consecutive Sundays and in more literate times were posted in a public place to allow people to make their own objections. My memory tells me the first had to be 6 weeks before but I am not exactly  sure but I am sure you get the gist.
So, I can imagine it is three opportunities to denounce / complain that there is a reason why they should not get married (the impediment) which goes in the next column? However, it makes for confusion compared with rural registers where the degrees of relatedness or dispensation, sometimes from the archbishop where an appeal has been made, were scribbled alongside the entry for the marriage.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 26 December 21 13:55 GMT (UK)

 Disp is the most common, another has a V and what looks like a number 8, a few have a Tres or Tris (closed e?) which presumably is in Latin and = three.
The Banns in English churches were read three times in church on consecutive Sundays and in more literate times were posted in a public place to allow people to make their own objections. My memory tells me the first had to be 6 weeks before but I am not exactly  sure

V may be abbreviation for vagus/vagi, people with no fixed abode, no home parish (vagus =wandering, unsettled, vagor = to wander, go far afield).
Banns were to be read on 3 consecutive Sundays or Holy Days (i.e. when there was likely to be a large congregation present). When the Anglican Church was set up it continued with the Catholic banns custom (heywood's reply #10).
   
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: Shay123 on Monday 27 December 21 08:48 GMT (UK)
Hello,
Thanks for the information avout the V
Somewhere I have a list of church abbreviations from the internet and I must physically print it for reference.

I think what is confusing is that the cleric writing the note knew the protocol and therefore could abbreviate how he wanted. For us looking back, like anyone trying to read my notes, would not understnd the sense of what is happening. Three denunciations means that three people objected to the wedding or that the opportunnity to denounce the wedding was given three times? The other abbreviations are also opaque unless we know church protocols.

So, should dispensation in the denunciation column mean that all objections were denied or does it mean that there was unidentified consanguinuity that was not an impediment to the marriage?
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: heywood on Monday 27 December 21 11:42 GMT (UK)
If you look back at earlier posts we write about denunciations and impediments.

My belief is that denunciations refers to Banns. Banns were read on three consecutive Sundays (tres) or there was a recorded dispensation from the regular process  of Banns.
It does not refer to the number of objections or similar.

‘Impediments’ refers to conditions which would affect the validity of the marriage e.g.  consanguinity and affinity.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: Maiden Stone on Monday 27 December 21 15:13 GMT (UK)
Reply #18 by heywood explains "denunciations" and impediments.
There are/were several reasons why dispensations or permissions are/were required for a wedding in a Catholic church e.g. if one party wasn't Catholic; if a couple wanted/needed to marry during Lent. Parish priests could grant dispensations for some routine, straightforward matters. Others had to be referred to a superior cleric in the diocese.
RootsChat has many threads about dispensations; some contain links to further information.
Shay makes an interesting point about contrasts with rural parishes. A large city parish would have replaced registers frequently while a rural parish may have been using the same ones for decades. Format of registers may have changed during the period.
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: heywood on Monday 27 December 21 16:22 GMT (UK)
Thanks Maiden Stone. You are always so informative.  :)
My family parish in County Mayo has scant marriage records and they are all rewritten on Catholic NLI so no additional notes.
My husband’s family parish, on the hand, shows a column marked ‘kindred’ which is more explicit.
Example here:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634630#page/23/mode/1up
Title: Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 28 December 21 18:06 GMT (UK)
it makes for confusion compared with rural registers where the degrees of relatedness or dispensation, sometimes from the archbishop where an appeal has been made, were scribbled alongside the entry for the marriage.

Examples from parishes where members of my families married in 19th century.

Swords, County Dublin, Archdiocese of Dublin had proper marriage registers with printed column headings, double page entries for each wedding. Headings included names of fathers & mothers + their residences. 3 separate columns headed Denunciationes (a), Impedimenta (b) and Observanda (final column). Looked at 2 random years 1857 & 1879. Several appear to have a dispensation of banns.
 https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633686#page/3/mode/1up   https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633686#page/43/mode/1up

Marriage registers in my grandparents' 2 Mayo parishes contained sparse information. Marriage entries took up a single page width.
 Information in one for 1879 was date, names of groom, bride and witnesses, initials of priest and money received.
The other parish (mainly rural) was using a notebook (perhaps a cash/accounts book) for a marriage register in 1840s. Handwritten headings - Contracting Parties, Witnesses, Kindred. The only information for each wedding was date, names of groom, bride & witnesses, + degree of consanguinity or affinity, if any. The parish had progressed to a register with printed headings later in the century. Headings were Date, Number, Contracting Parties, Witnesses, Impediments. There was no residence column so residence (generally townland) was written in Impediments column for some marriages.

Writers of those registers would not have imagined lay people trying to decipher and make sense of them more than a century later.