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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: doolittle72 on Wednesday 08 December 21 19:58 GMT (UK)
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Margaret Jamieson was the Gt Grandmother of my late husband. On her census return it says she was born in Wishaw around 1848/9. She lived with her mother and stepfather before her marriage to John Hamilton in 1869. Her mother was Mary McMahon and she married John Clark in Hamilton in 1853. Margaret's father was Robert Jamieson. I cannot find a marriage anywhere for Robert and Mary so it's likely they didn't wed. As it's before civil registration I wonder if there were any other churches she could have been baptised in around Cambusnethan or Wishaw?
Thank you to everyone who reads this and can respond
Doolittle
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Have you found Margaret in 1851? I can’t see her under either surname. I notice Mary was b Ireland but I can’t find her in 1851 either
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Is it possible that Robert Jamieson & Mary McMahon married in Ireland?
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Mary married as McMahon - does the 1853 manage entry show her as a spinster or a widow
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I couldn't find either of them in 1851 either. Neither John Clark or Mary McMahon was given a status in the marriage record - both of this parish!
Mary died in 1883 as the widow of John Clark - Brickfield Labourer. Her death was registered by her son A Clark and only gives her parent as Edward Murray Deceased, her age given as 65 years.
Margaret died in 1890 as the widow of John Hamilton - Iron Heater. John died on board a vessel in Suez. Margaret's age given as 44 years and the inofrmant was her son William. Her parents were given as Robert Jamieson Coalminer deceased and Mary Clark formerly Jamieson MS McMahon.
William would only have been about 19 years old when Margaret died.
Doollittle
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Here is a possible family in 1851 in St Cuthberts.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5903d934e9379091b1fe028d/mary-mcmahon-1851-midlothian-st-cuthbert-s-1821-?locale=en
Mary is about the right age, and there is a child Margaret aged 2.
It might be worth investigating the family further.
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There is a family tree on Ancestry for a Mary Jamieson, daughter of Robert, coalminer, and Mary McMahon. You need a subs to view www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/27808305/person/26128861079/facts
She married a Bernard Rafferty, coalminer, in 1878 in Nielston, Renfrewshire. Aged 25 would make her born c. 1852-3.
A clip from the registration below:
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Mary Jamieson on the 1881 census:
Bernard Rafferty 29 coalminer b. Holytown, Lanarkshire
Mary Rafferty 29 Wife b. Wishaw
Mary Rafferty 2
Isabella Rafferty 10 months
Address: 18 Brandon St, Hamilton
This looks a likely entry for Mary in 1861:
Mary Ann Laird 39 Head
Agnes Laird 17
John Laird 15
Mary Jamieson 11 Lodger cotton bleacher b. Wishaw
Isabella Duncan 20 Lodger
Jane Johnston 6 Days Daughter
Jane Corbett 19 Lodger
Address: Gormleys Land, Nielston, Renfrewshire
Monica
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Margaret was living with her mother and step=father in 1861 and she married in 1869 and therefore on the census of 1871 with her husband.
I tried to find out if the Catherine McMahon and her family were still around in 1861 to see if their birthplace in Ireland was still relevant but to no avail.
Were there any other churches other than church of scotland in the Wishaw, Cambusnethan or Craigneuk area in the 1840's / 50's as her father Robert Jamieson was a coalminer and therefore may have been working at the pits around there?
Thank you everyone for the great trouble you all go to to help.
Doolittle
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Marriage certificate, 1869, HAMILTON-JAMIESON....what do you see for names of witnesses.
Might be close family.
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Hi Doolittle,
I assume you are asking about Presbyterian churches and not Catholic churches?
In Cambusnethan parish, which included the town of Wishaw but not Craigneuk, there were several Presbyterian churches by the 1840's & 50's. There was of course, the parish church, then the 1st Relief Church (later called Thornlie Church) which was formed around 1831. Also Bonkle United Presbyterian (later called Muirkirk of Cambusnethan) I think that dates from about 1836?
Craigneuk (previously called Rumblingsykes) was part of the parish of Dalziel. Dalziel parish was much smaller than any of its neighbours, Cambusnethan included. The modern town of Motherwell covers the whole of the former Dalziel parish (except Craigneuk, which is in the town of Wishaw). Apart from Dalziel parish church and the quod sacra South Dalziel parish church (both Presbyterian) there was no other church there until the Disruption of 1843 when about one-third of the church of Scotland members broke away to form the Free Church of Scotland.
If your family had connections with the town and parish of Hamilton, it is entirely possible that they journeyed over the river to worship there, either in the parish church or in one of the three Secession Churches there. (all Presbyterian).
It would be much easier if they had been Catholic :)
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To answer the question of witnesses - they must have been friends for they weren't related. Also they married in the United Free church in Glasgow. They both quoted their respective mothers' maiden names wrong on their marriage certificate.
I appreciate the information you provided Lodger about Craigneuk as my late husband was born there and went to Berryhill School and Wishaw High.
If Margaret was baptised in another of the churches (other than Cambusnethan) where would these records be - Scotlands People?
Doolittle
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My understanding, is that There are very few freechurch records on SP at the moment.
Information here -
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/guides/church-registers
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If you are researching the origins of Margaret JAMIESON, married John HAMILTON, 1869, the marriage certificate is an important source of information.
Margaret JAMIESON is giving information about herself.
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate. Everything please....dates, addresses, ages, occupations...everything.
If you have relevant comments to offer about the information on the marriage certificate you should give this separately, after the listed information.
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Is this the family you see at 1861?
Census 1861 Scotland at 22 New Wyld Hamilton Lanarkshire Ancestry
CLARK John 54y drainer b. Ireland
CLARK Mary 35y b. Ireland
CLARK Joseph 16y son coal miner b. Hamilton
JAMIESON Margaret 15y stepdaughter b. Wishaw Lanarkshire
lace tambourer
CLARK Owen 7y son b. Hamilton
CLARK Elizabeth 5y dau b. Hamilton
CLARK Thomas 3y son b. Hamilton
CLARK Ann 10m dau b. Hamilton
Do you see this family in Census 1871?
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On ScotlandsPeople in the Catholic registers there is a birth for Mary JAMISON on 1 Jan 1849 in St Marys Hamilton. Parents are Robert Jamison and Mary McMahon.
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I have been looking more at the above Mary JAMISON born in 1849 (Catholic baptism) the daughter of Robert Jamison and Mary McMahon.
In the 1861 census [Previously posted by Monica]
she is living with Mary Ann LAIRD – who I now think is her aunt, - Mary JAMIESON.
County: Renfrewshire (RFW) District: Neilston
House or Street Name: Gormleys Land, Holehouse
LAIRD Mary Ann Head W F 39 Cotton Bleacher Ireland -
LAIRD Agnes Dau U F 17 Cotton Bleacher Ayrshire Riccarton
LAIRD John Son U M 15 Cotton Bleacher Ayrshire Riccarton
JAMIESON Mary Lodger - F 11 Cotton Bleacher Lanarkshire Wishaw
This is the same Laird family in 1851 census
County: Ayrshire (AYR) Civil Parish: Riccarton
House or Street Name: Churchyard Lane
LAIRD Marian Head W F 27 House Keeping Ayrshire Riccarton
LAIRD Agness Dau U F 8 Scollar Ayrshire Riccarton
LAIRD John Son - M 6 Ayrshire Riccarton
And in 1841 cenus just after the parents were married
Census: 1841
County: Ayrshire (AYR) District: Kilmaurs
House or Street Name: Crosshouse
Surname Forenames
AIRD William M 25 Coal Miner Ayrshire
AIRD Mary F 25 Ayrshire
I think this might be the marriage banns for the couple.
AIRD WILLIAM MARY JAMIESON
12/12/1840 598/ 20 262 Kilmaurs
AIRD WILLIAM MARY JAMIESON /FR460 (FR460)
31/12/1840 611/ 20 275 Riccarton
ADDED 1871 census for Mary Laird, living with married daughter Agnes.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5b91a667f4040b176c8e283f/mary-laird-1871-renfrewshire-cathcart-1821-?locale=en
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On ScotlandsPeople in the Catholic registers there is a birth for Mary JAMISON on 1 Jan 1849 in St Marys Hamilton. Parents are Robert Jamison and Mary McMahon.
I did say it would be easier if they had been Catholic ;D ;D ;D
Well done Neale, St Mary's in Hamilton would have been the nearest Catholic church to Wishaw at that time. The only other possible church would have been St Margaret's in Airdrie. Wishaw didn't have a Catholic church until the founding of St Ignatius of Loyola parish in 1859. (St Mary's Hamilton was founded in 1843).
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I thank you all for your insight and input.
We are looking at two different girls here:
In 1861 census in Hamilton Margaret is 15 years of age and is living with her mother and stepfather. In the other 1861 census in Ayrshire Mary (who is probably her sister) is lodging with Mary Ann Laird.
I will keep trying SP for a baptism for Margaret around 1845ish as they both seem to say Wishaw as place of birth.
Since Robert must have died for Mary to have wed in Hamilton in 1853 I have been looking for his death but not yet found anything. I have looked at mining accidents since he was born in 1817 and therefore quite young.
Once again thenk you all.
Doolittle
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Yes, I do realise that we are looking at 2 different girls, but they are sisters (assuming the information you have given about Margaret Jamieson is correct). Looking at records for one sister may lead to more information about the other, and the family in general.
When I saw that 3 of Mary McMahon’s children born to John Clark were baptised in the Catholic church at Hamilton, it was the place to look for the births of her other daughters. It would seem that Mary McMahon was probably Catholic. There is no birth record for Margaret – it may have been lost, or never made or recorded. However, looking at the catholic baptism record for Mary Jamieson may give you further information about the parents. There are a number of records to look at should you wish to follow the line of investigation further.
I don’t think you can assume the Mary McMahon was married to Robert Jamieson. It is just as possible that the 2 girls were illegitimate.
I have been looking at a Robert JAMIESON, coal miner born about 1817 in Donegal Ireland (age varies a lot in the census). There is only one man of this name who is a coal miner that I can find in the Lanarkshire census records.
From the 1851 census to 1881 census he is recorded working as a coal miner, living in Lanarkshire - Cambuslang & Hamilton Farm Row, Rutherglen.
Robert married Margaret SIMPSON in Cadder, Lanarkshire in Oct 1842. Margaret was living there in 1841 census. She was born about 1824 Ireland, & she died 1894. No sign of Robert in 1841.
Although married in 1842, their first child was not born until 1849. One wonders why children were not born earlier? Were the couple not together, or was there another woman (Mary McMahon) in the picture?
Also interesting to note that three subsequent children were born in Ayrshire, even though the family was living in Lanarkshire. The family appear to be Presbyterian.
Children:
• James JAMIESON abt 1849 Rutherglen
• William John JAMIESON 1853 Kilwinning, Ayrshire
• Andrew JAMIESON 5 Aug 1856 Kilwinning
• Agnes JAMIESON 16 June 1859 Kilwinning
• Ellen SIMPSON (‘adopted’) 1860
• Margaret JAMIESON 11 July 1861 Cambuslang
Husband and wife are living apart in the 1881 census.
Robert JAMIESON died in Silverbanks, Cambuslang on 2 June 1888. Son William was informant. Robert’s father is recorded as John JAMIESON. No name given for mother.
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Margaret herself seems unsure od her facts because on her marriage in 1869 she stated her father was Robert Jamieson a labourer deceased and her mother was Mary Jamieson maiden name Rodger.
On her death certificate her father is given as Robert Jamieson, coal miner deceased and her mother as Mary Clark previously Jamieson maiden name McMachan.
On the 1881 Census Mary Clark is living with her son Thomas and his wife in Glasgow.
Robert Jamieson was the son of Robert Jamieson and Margaret Rodger who were married in 1816 and their son Robert born in 1817. All in Gorbals, Glasgow
I will endeavour to find more information.
Doolittle
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Robert Jamieson was the son of Robert Jamieson and Margaret Rodger who were married in 1816 and their son Robert born in 1817. All in Gorbals, Glasgow
Where does this information come from? You have not provided it before.
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I have the record of Robert's baptism also his brother John who was baptised in 1821 all in Gorbals where the marriage was in 1816.
I agree that Mary was probably Catholic but Robert may not have been.
I searched for Mary Jamieson in the 1871 census and found her in Neilston but not with any of the Lairds however she had someone of interest with her viz Ella Clark who was born in Hamilton. I cannot fit her into Mary Clark's family as she was born in 1857.
Mary Jamieson married a John Connelly who was a widower in 1887 stating she was a widow? Her witness was Annie Clark who was her half-sister. If Mary was a widow why would she have been married under her maiden name?
Do these people really know who they are?
Doolittle
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I have the record of Robert's baptism also his brother John who was baptised in 1821 all in Gorbals where the marriage was in 1816.
You may have a baptism for a Robert Jamieson, but why do you presume he is the father of Margaret and Mary? What documentation do you have for that? Where is he in the census? It seems you have picked any Robert at random?
There are 47 baptisms recorded for “Robert Jamieson” in Scotland between 1815 and 1825, many more will not have baptisms recorded. You don’t know if your Robert Jamieson was born in Scotland or when, so add on all those men born earlier than 1815, and all those Robert Jamiesons born in England and Ireland. You have many score to choose from.
What you do have is his name and occupation – a coal miner. Mary Jamieson married twice (1878 and in 1887, a Catholic marriage), and on both marriage records, she is consistent with the information about both parents.
Mary Jamieson married a John Connelly who was a widower in 1887 stating she was a widow? Her witness was Annie Clark who was her half-sister. If Mary was a widow why would she have been married under her maiden name? Do these people really know who they are?
In Scotland the woman retains her maiden name after marriage, and reverts to that as a widow, so it is normal for a woman to be recorded with her maiden name on a second marriage (as is the case with Mary). You are correct, a witness at her second marriage is Annie Clark a step-sister.
I searched for Mary Jamieson in the 1871 census and found her in Neilston but not with any of the Lairds however she had someone of interest with her viz Ella Clark who was born in Hamilton. I cannot fit her into Mary Clark's family as she was born in 1857.
In the 1871 census Mary Jamieson is boarding with a number of other young women, all employed as bleachers. Also there is Eliza Clark (not Ella). This is her step-sister Elizabeth Clark – baptised 1856 in Catholic church, Hamilton - daughter of Mary McMahon.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5b91a537f4040b176c8ced66/mary-jamieson-1871-renfrewshire-neilston-1849-?locale=en
(Note - beware the numerous errors on Ancestry transcriptions)
This is the same census address for Mary McMahon Clark in 1891 census.
* In reply #9 and #13, there were requests for ALL information from Margaret’s marriage certificate (including witness names). Are you able to provide this?
* Do you have the death certificate for Mary McMahon Clark, 1895 Neilston? Mothers maiden name is given as Brannon. On SP her death is indexed under both her maiden name AND her married name, as normal. :)
* What information do you get from Mary Jamieson’s Catholic baptism record?
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You have good information that would be useful to a forum.
Can you please list all the information on the HAMILTON-JAMIESON marriage certificate , 1869.
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate for Mary CLARK, 1883.
Can you identify John HAMILTON and Margaret on the Census 1871.
Can you identify this family, 1881, so that I can find them.....what address?
"1881 Census Mary Clark is living with her son Thomas and his wife in Glasgow."
At my reply #14, CLARK family, Census 1861....where are these people at Census 1871?
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These census transcriptions are taken from Ancestry. Warning - There are transcription errors.
1861 census 22 New Wynd, Hamilton, Lanarkshire Rego no. 647, Schedule 166
• John Clark 54 Head, born Ireland, Labourer- drainer
• Mary Clark 35 wife born Ireland
• Joseph Clark 16, born Hamilton, coal miner
• Margaret Jamieson 15 Stepdaughter, born Wishaw, Lace Tambourer
• Owen Clark 7 son born Hamilton
• Elizabeth Clark 5 daughter born Hamilton
• Thomas Clark 3 son born Hamilton
• Ann Clark 10 months daughter born Hamilton
1871 census 6 Russells Row, Dalziel, Lanarkshire Rego no. 639, Schedule 56
• John Clark 65 Head, born Ireland, Pit Labourer
• Mary Clark 45 wife born Ireland
• Ann Cark 12 daughter, born Hamilton
• Thomas Clark 3 son, born Hamilton
1881 census Neilston Registration Number: 572/1; schedule 296
• Mary Clark 60 Bleachfield Worker, born Ireland
• Elizabeth Clark 23 daughter, born Hamilton
• Annie Cark 21 daughter, born Hamilton
• Thomas Clark 14 grd-son, born Hamilton
• Ellen Johnston 22 Boarder
1891 census Holehouse, Neilston. Registration Number: 572/1; schedule 116
• Mary Clark Head 60 , born Ireland
• Ann Clark daughter 28 Bleachfield Worker, born Hamilton
• Thomas Clark grd-son 23 born Hamilton Fireman (Pit)
• Nellie McCafferty 26 boarder Bleachfield Worker
• Hugh Mulrane 4 boarder
• John O’Brien 12 Orphan
• Daniel O-Brien 10 orphan
Mary Clark did not die in 1883, because she is in 1891 census. That 1883 death cert is not correct. It was in Milton and the family were never living there.
You need the correct death certificate from 1895 mentioned in my above post.
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate for Mary CLARK, 1883.
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Thank you for the Census information. I am looking at other households, same address, and anything in newspapers. Address are useful for this.
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What a shame that Doolittle72 was not interested enough to return to this thread, or answer the questions posed.
One would have hoped he/she might have been grateful at being directed to the correct records and facts. (Interesting to note the corrections have been made on the Ancestry tree now.)
Obviously when there is no further interest, there is no point in posting information about Robert Jamieson and the Jamieson family.
EDIT - should have said that “SOME” corrections have been made.
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Interesting to note the corrections have been made on the Ancestry tree now.
That in itself is a very positive thing.
I am shocked how often I read someone saying they have tried to contact a tree owner to let them know of an error, only to be rebuffed or ignored. I know I've tried to get errors corrected many a time, but seldom with any success.
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I'm sorry if you think I'm not interested - I have been away for a couple of days and I am very grateful for the postings/corrections you have helped a great deal. The death certificate for Mary Clark I had had some time ago and discarded because the first husband was given as William Jamieson not Robert so I thought it was the wrong one, This led me down the wrong path. However on Margaret's marriage certificate she stated her mother was Mary RODGER. This is why I had looked at ALL the Robert Jamieson baptisms and settled on the one I did as the most plausible. Robert Jamieson was the son of Robert Jamieson and Margaret Rodger. As the two girls were Mary after Mary Brannon and Margaret after Margaret Rodger I tried to use common sense in this case.
All through this family they have not only used the naming patterns but named the children with many names of their ancestors ie Margaret Jamieson Hamilton or Annie Robertson Thom Hamilton.
I am indeed very grateful for the assistance that has been given.
Doolittle