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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: AusFamily on Wednesday 05 January 22 07:35 GMT (UK)
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The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
My great great grandmother was known as "Anne Roberts" when she married Henry Adams in Poplar London in abt Nov 1853. Henry's father, Jesse Adams had been in a Tile maker in Notting Hill, when Henry was born in 1834. see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=857000.0
The family appear on the 1871 census living in Islington St James, where she gives her name as "Anna" birthplace as "Burslem, Staffordshire"; and the 1881 census in Grove St. Islington, using the name "Emma" where she gives her birthplace as "Manchester". I tend to think Manchester more likely. On the 1871 census her mother Mary is living with them, giving her birthplace as "Preston" and age as 52. On the 1881 census, her sister Eliza is living with them and gives her birthplace as "Manchester" and age as 38. Both entires match the childrens names (Adolphus b. 1856, Eugenie b 1865, Beatrice b 1868, Arthur b 1870, Alexander b 1872 and Ernest b 1876) and the father Henry's occupation "Employee of City Prison"/"prison warder". They are not in the 1861 census as I was told that Islington is missing from that particular year.
I think this is likely a photo of Anne Adams taken ca 1870 in London:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=856746.0
It was in my grandmother's collection
When the family migrated to Australia on 7 Nov 1881 on the ship Northampton, she gave her place of origin as Lyons [sic] France, under the name "Anna". The husband and children's names and ages all match,except for the oldest son (Henry) Adolphus Adams who imigrated by himself and married in Sydney in 1881. There was a first born William Joseph Walter Adams b 1854, Strand (not on the 1871 census - he appears on the Portsmouth, Hampshire census as a "Boy 1st Class" in the Royal Navy on the ship "Exellent", who immigrated to Sydney in 1879 and married in Sydney that year.
Anna's New South Wales death records are as follows:
ADAMS ANNA
12882/1900
father: JOHN
mother: MARY
reg: HURSTVILLE
There has always been a family story that Anne Roberts came from France and her family was in the pottery industry, and apparently Anne left for England after shouting out "Vive la roi!" during the 1848 revolutionary era in France and their family pottery shop got smashed up. but nobody knew anything further.
So, after I found the reference to Lyon in the immigration records, I began looking at the Rhône census records for surname "Robert" and found the following from the 1851 census:
Name:Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender:femme (Female)
Nationality:Anglaise
Marital Status:Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age:36
Birth Date:abt 1815
Residence Date:1851
Street Address:Rue de Landine
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Journalier (Day Laborer/Journeyman)
Relationship:
Épouse (Wife)
Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier (Anglais)
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife) (Anglaise)
Eliza Robert 17 (Anglaise)
Jean Robert 11 (Français)
Joseph Robert 3 (Français)
This would appear to be Anne/Anna's family still living there in 1851. I went through all the Robert's in Rhône on the census forms and this was the only one that was described as "Anglaise".
The only thing that was wrong was that the dates of birth didn't match the ones on the English census forms for Marie (Mary) and Eliza. Most French women appeared to use the name 'Elise' or 'Elisabeth' and "Eliza" was far less common, I found when looking through the records. So again, I thought this pointed to the correct family. However, Anne had already departed by this stage.
UK 1871 Census has Mary's date of birth as 1819; Lyon 1851 census has her date of birth as 1815
UK 1881 census has Eliza's date of birth as 1843; Lyon 1851 census has her date of birth as 1834
in the 1856 Rhône census I found the younger son again 5 years later:
Name:Jean Joseph Robert
Gender:homme (Male)
Marital Status:Garçon
Age:8
Birth Date:abt 1848
Residence Date:1856
Residence Place:Oullins, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Fobricant de Porcelainier (Porcelain maker)
that was the clue to link the family back to the pottery industry.
So, with the maiden name "Helm" and the birthplace "Preston" I started looking and found the following:
Name
Mary Helm
Baptism Date 27 Mar 1814
Parish Ribchester, Lancashire, England (a village about 12 miles from Preston)
There are a also number of other Mary Helm' s born in the villages of Paidham and Garstang around the same time.
I found what I think may be Anne's baptism:
Agnes Robertson
Gender:Female
Birth Date:15 Jan 1835
Baptism Date:17 May 1835
Baptism Place:Mosley Street Removed From Cannon Street, Independent, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Father:John Robertson
Mother:Mary
Is this the correct Ann Roberts, given that I've found 'Agnes' used for 'Anne/Ann' elsewhere in my family tree in the 1830s?
The parents' (John & Mary's) marriage remain a mystery. Eliza's birth remains a mystery, I haven't pinned down Mary Helm's exact date of birth, as there are a number of hits around the same time near Preston for 'Mary Helm' and lastly John Roberts/Robertson (b according to the Lyon census abt 1806). I assume he was also born in Lancs. He may well also have grown up with a family in the pottery industry.
Any help appreciated!
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The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
The family appear on the 1871 census living in Islington St James, ...........
They are not in the 1861 census as I was told that Islington is missing from that particular year.
They are not living in the Islington area in 1861 according to birth registrations of the children,
Adolphus is listed as being born in Marylebone c1858 and the other childrens births were all registered in the Marylebone registration district Arthurs being in March qtr 1870 they only appear to have moved to Islington after Arthurs birth.
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although baptised Ribchester - they lived in DUTTON = 13 miles from Preston
Baptism: 27 Mar 1814 St Wilfrid, Ribchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Helme - [Child] of Elizabeth Helme
Abode: Dutton
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: H Cardwell
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The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
The family appear on the 1871 census living in Islington St James, ...........
They are not in the 1861 census as I was told that Islington is missing from that particular year.
They are not living in the Islington area in 1861 according to birth registrations of the children,
Adolphus is listed as being born in Marylebone c1858 and the other childrens births were all registered in the Marylebone registration district Arthurs being in March qtr 1870 they only appear to have moved to Islington after Arthurs birth.
Hi again Rosie,
Where were living in 1861 in that case? :)
The only one that may be them I could find is: 16 Pancras St, St Pancras, Middlesex. Ann is known as Mary-Ann and listed as dressmaker. Henry is a Gas fitter/laborer
Is that them do you think?
cheers
Barry
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although baptised Ribchester - they lived in DUTTON = 13 miles from Preston
Baptism: 27 Mar 1814 St Wilfrid, Ribchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Helme - [Child] of Elizabeth Helme
Abode: Dutton
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: H Cardwell
Thankyou Garstonite,
Given that we don't know if she was born in 1815 or 1819 (and I've found people tend to be inaccurate sometimes on census forms from one form in one year to another), I've made the following lists of Mary Helm/Helme b 1804-1824 in Lancs. from ancestry hits (pls forgive this Australian's ignorance of Lancashire geography):
MARY HELM b Lancs 1804-1824
Mary Helm bap 4 Nov 1804 Ribchester, Lancs
Mary-Ann Helm Baptism 20 Aug 1805 Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 29 Jan 1805 Balderstone, Lancs
Mary Elisabeth Helm bap 15 Mar 1807 Padiham Lancs
Mary Helm bap 20 Sep 1807 Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 27 Mar 1808 Garstang Lancs
Mary Helm bap 15 Mar 1809 Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 30 Jun 1811 Manchester
Mary Helm b 29 Nov 1811 Garstang, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 22 Dec 1811, Garstang, Lancs
Mary Helm b 1814 Ribchester Lancs
Mary Ann Helm bap 10 Nov 1816 Cockerham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 7 May 1817 Padiham Lancs
Hary Helm b 3 Jan 1818 Higham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 23 Jan 1819 Padiham Lancs.jpg
Mary Helm b 23 Jan 1819 Padiham Lancs
Mary Helm b 23 Jan 1820, Padiham, Lancs
Mary Helm bap 5 Nov 1820 Kirkham, Lancs
Mary Helm b 27 Jan 1823 Woodplumpton, Lancs
Mary Constantia Helm bap 26 Feb 1824, Manchester
Mary Helm b 9 Apr 1824 Padiham, Lancs
Mary HELME
Mary Helme bap 4 Nov 1804 Longridge, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 24 Jun 1805 Cockerham, Lancs
Mary Helme b 23 Jun 1807 Warton near Lancaster, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 18 Feb 1809 Saint John, Preston, Lancs
Mary Helme b 4 Mar 1810, Saint Mary, Lancaster, Lancs
Mary Helme 5 Jan 1816 Turton, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 14 May 1820 Over Wyresdale, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 15 Jun 1823 Kirkham, Lancs
Mary Helme bap 15 Jun 1823 Hambleton, Lancs
also:
Mary Helm bap 15 Jul 1821 St Luke, Chelsea, Kensington and Chelsea
given the connection to the area with Henry Adams & his father Jesse
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By 1861 they should have William J W Adams and Adolphus living with them
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By 1861 they should have William J W Adams and Adolphus living with them
Cannot find them, using "adolphus" with Henry living in London on the findmypast search engine. They must have been in Islington, where the census forms are missing, like you said. He was known as Adolphus in the 1871 census form and not henry.
This was 60 or 70 years before the name became infamous!
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1851 France
Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert 11
Joseph Robert 3
Could this be Jean in 1861, London
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5j/
Also 1861
Possibly Mother Marie a widow at 10 Chandos St, Strand
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5k/
Same occupation as in later census
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The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
in the 1856 Rhône census I found the younger son again 5 years later:
Name:Jean Joseph Robert
Gender:homme (Male)
Marital Status:Garçon
Age:8
Birth Date:abt 1848
Residence Date:1856
Residence Place:Oullins, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Fobricant de Porcelainier (Porcelain maker)
Could you please give the details of all in the household for that 1856 entry.
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Who was Alexander Robert, the godfather to Adolphus
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Regarding your question about Anne/Agnes in connection with baptism of Ages Robertson 1835 in your opening post. The 2 names weren't interchangeable among my Lancashire ancestors. Common variants of Ann in Lancashire were Annie and Nanny. All my English ancestors lived in Lancashire, many traceable to 1600s. Several in one line named Agnes 1600s-early 20thC. None were ever Ann. There were many women named Agnes in their district; I haven't noticed any being known as Ann. My 4xGGM Agnes had a younger sister Ann and 2 daughters, Ann and Agnes.
Btw your introductory sentence to baptism of Agnes Robertson is "I think I've found what is Mary's baptism".
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List of Mary Helm/e baptisms reply #4.
Mary Elisabeth baptised March 1807, Padiham, parents Elijah & Mary may have died aged 12. Burial Sep. 1819.
Some dates in the list were dates of birth, some dates of baptism.
Mary baptised at Higham, near Padiham Feb. 1818. Was this at Higham Wesleyan/Independent Chapel, parents James & Esther? They had other children baptised at the chapel. Higham was part of Haworth Methodist Circuit prior to the chapel's foundation. Haworth is in Yorkshire.
Added. Baptism Nov. 1816 Cockerham. May have died 1828 aged 11. Buried at Ellel. Also recorded in burial register St. Michael, Cockerham.
Information from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks. Website also has information about many churches and places. www.lan-opc.org.uk
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1851 France
Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert 11
Joseph Robert 3
Could this be Jean in 1861, London
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5j/
Also 1861
Possibly Mother Marie a widow at 10 Chandos St, Strand
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r5k/
Same occupation as in later census
Yes and Yes!
I know that Jean was born in France from the 1851 Lyon census. It says that his place of birth was "Lyon, France" on this 1861 English census form.
In the 1871 English census where mother Marie is living with her daughter in Islington, her occupation is given as "nurse" as well (as it is here). I'm pretty sure it's the same woman, the age roughly matches as well.
great detective work Rosie!
So, after I found the reference to Lyon in the immigration records, I began looking at the Rhône census records for surname "Robert" and found the following from the 1851 census:
Name:Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender:femme (Female)
Nationality:Anglaise
Marital Status:Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age:36
Birth Date:abt 1815
Residence Date:1851
Street Address:Rue de Landine
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation:Journalier (Day Laborer/Journeyman)
Relationship:
Épouse (Wife)
Jean Robert 45 (Head) - occupation: Journalier (Anglais)
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife) (Anglaise)
Eliza Robert 17 (Anglaise)
Jean Robert 11 (Français)
Joseph Robert 3 (Français)
This would appear to be Anne/Anna's family still living there in 1851. I went through all the Robert's in Rhône on the census forms and this was the only one that was described as "Anglaise".
The only thing that was wrong was that the dates of birth didn't match the ones on the English census forms for Marie (Mary) and Eliza. Most French women appeared to use the name 'Elise' or 'Elisabeth' and "Eliza" was far less common, I found when looking through the records. So again, I thought this pointed to the correct family. However, Anne had already departed by this stage.
just looked at the original census form from Lyon for 1851 and found that Jean snr's occupation is actually listed as "porcelainier", not 'journalier'; can't read his wife's occupation though, we know she turns up later in the English census as occupation "nurse". Also note they list Marie's maiden name as Helm. You will see that Eliza's nationality is also "Anglaise", however the two younger sons are French born as there is no nationality recorded. Anne had departed by this stage.
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Regarding your question about Anne/Agnes in connection with baptism of Ages Robertson 1835 in your opening post. The 2 names weren't interchangeable among my Lancashire ancestors. Common variants of Ann in Lancashire were Annie and Nanny. All my English ancestors lived in Lancashire, many traceable to 1600s. Several in one line named Agnes 1600s-early 20thC. None were ever Ann. There were many women named Agnes in their district; I haven't noticed any being known as Ann. My 4xGGM Agnes had a younger sister Ann and 2 daughters, Ann and Agnes.
Btw your introductory sentence to baptism of Agnes Robertson is "I think I've found what is Mary's baptism".
Thankyou, noted. I have also changed the errror you spotted, thankyou. There is also an Anne Robert in the 1836 Lyon census with parents Jean & Marie, aged 2, see below.
Barry
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The Anne Roberts mystery and the French connection
in the 1856 Rhône census I found the younger son again 5 years later:
Name: Jean Joseph Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Marital Status: Garçon
Age: 8
Birth Date: abt 1848
Residence Date: 1856
Residence Place: Oullins, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Fobricant de Porcelainier (Porcelain maker)
Could you please give the details of all in the household for that 1856 entry.
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Who was Alexander Robert, the godfather to Adolphus
Could you please give the details of all in the household for that 1856 entry.
It's strange, as the census entry gives a long list of children, all unrelated with different surnames. No other members of the Robert family appear as living in the suburb of Oullins, Lyon that year. Perhaps they were all in a children's home or else the French had a different way of gathering census data that year. The children range from ages 5-19 and all have different occupations, with a majority being between the ages of 7 and 9. I can't seem to find the rest of the Robert family in Lyon for 1856. Maybe they had to put him in a children's home?
Who was Alexander Robert, the godfather to Adolphus
Where did you find this reference, Rosie? I am not aware of it
There is also another reference which I found in the Lyon census in 1836, which may be Anne and her parents:
Name: Marie Robert (mother)
Gender: femme (Female)
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age: 20
Birth Date: abt 1816
Residence Date: 1836
Street Address: Rue de Marbresa
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Jn Louis Robert 32 (occupation: 'Guimpier' - 'Tireur d'or fabricant le fil d'or utilise ensuite par le Fileur d'or') ~ birth year 1804
Marie Robert 20 (Fe) ~ birth year 1816
Anne Robert 2 ~ birth year 1834
It does not give a place of birth for Anne however.
The only death in Lyon for a "Jean Robert" between 1851 & 1861 was on 18 Sep 1861 ( I assume this was afte the English census was taken?) and although the age is more or less correct, the relatives do not seem to be correct. This would perhaps point to the fact he died elsewhere in France or maybe in England? We know that in 1861 Mary is in London, working as a nurse and living as a widow, thanks to Rosie's discovery.
Name: Jean Pierre Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Death Age: 56
Record Type: Décès (Death)
Birth Date: abt 1805
Death Date: 18 sept. 1861 (18 Sep 1861)
Death Place: Vénissieux, Rhône, France
Father: Jean Baptiste Robert
Mother: Marie Servos
Spouse: Marie Bourgey
There is also an entry in the England, Alien Arrivals, 1810-1811, 1826-1869 section of ancestry:
Name: Anne Roberts
Port of Arrival: Brighton, England
Arrival Date: 26 Sep 1839
Port of Departure: Dieppe, France
Ship: Belfast
Country of Origin/Native of: France
However I doubt it's her as she would have been about 5 years old at the time and she is not recorded as arriving with another "Roberts", she appears to be arriving with a Madame Guieriole, both of them listed as being from Paris. There are also so many other people with the surname Roberts listed, without a first name recorded, who arrived either from Dieppe or Calais around this time, up until Anne married in London in 1853. It's hard to know if this is her, however I doubt it. She is the only "Anne Roberts" that comes up arriving from France 1843 +/- 10 years
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although baptised Ribchester - they lived in DUTTON = 13 miles from Preston
Baptism: 27 Mar 1814 St Wilfrid, Ribchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Helme - [Child] of Elizabeth Helme
Abode: Dutton
Occupation: Weaver
Baptised by: H Cardwell
There is a Mary (English spelling, not 'Marie') Robert in the 1866 Lyon census, occupation: WEAVER; however we know that she was in the 1861 & 1871 censuses in London, occupation :"nurse". The Mary below is also slightly older
Name:Mary Robert
Gender:femme (Female)
Marital Status:Veuve (Widow)
Age:60
Birth Date:abt 1806
Residence Date:1866
Street Address:Rue St Georges
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Tisseur (weaver)
Mary Robert 60
Marie Paquet 21
Jenny Joubert 18
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List of Mary Helm/e baptisms reply #4.
Mary Elisabeth baptised March 1807, Padiham, parents Elijah & Mary may have died aged 12. Burial Sep. 1819.
Some dates in the list were dates of birth, some dates of baptism.
Mary baptised at Higham, near Padiham Feb. 1818. Was this at Higham Wesleyan/Independent Chapel, parents James & Esther? They had other children baptised at the chapel. Higham was part of Haworth Methodist Circuit prior to the chapel's foundation. Haworth is in Yorkshire.
Added. Baptism Nov. 1816 Cockerham. May have died 1828 aged 11. Buried at Ellel. Also recorded in burial register St. Michael, Cockerham.
Information from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks. Website also has information about many churches and places. www.lan-opc.org.uk
Mary baptised at Higham, near Padiham Feb. 1818. Was this at Higham Wesleyan/Independent Chapel, parents James & Esther?
yes, correct.
Thankyou for the other information
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Alexander Robert was mentioned as one of the godparents of Adolphus, the image is on FindMyPast.
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Reply #14. Weaving was one of the commonest occupations in Lancashire. It was still mainly a cottage industry when that Mary Helm was baptised in Ribchester in 1814. Rows of weavers' cottages had been built at the turn of the century in a village in the parish + more cottages with attached workshops for nailers who made special nails for the weaving looms. One set of my ancestors moved to the village to build houses, another set arrived to make nails.
Factories gradually took over textile production and were a major employer of women in Lancashire.
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Reply #14. Weaving was one of the commonest occupations in Lancashire. It was still mainly a cottage industry when that Mary Helm was baptised in Ribchester in 1814. Rows of weavers' cottages had been built at the turn of the century in a village in the parish + more cottages with attached workshops for nailers who made special nails for the weaving looms. One set of my ancestors moved to the village to build houses, another set arrived to make nails.
Factories gradually took over textile production and were a major employer of women in Lancashire.
Thankyou very much for that information. I would not be surprised if Mary came from a weaver family background. Now it just has to be worked out exactly who is the correct Hary Helm.
1851 French census has her aged 36 (b 1815) - nationality: "English" - maiden name "Helm"
1861 English census has her aged 44 (b 1817) - origin: "France" (kindly discovered by Rosie)
1871 English census has her aged 52 (b 1819) - born: "Preston"
best regards
Barry
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You really need her marriage certificate in the hope it has some information on members of her Helm family, otherwise we are just clutching at straws.
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You really need her marriage certificate in the hope it has some information on members of her Helm family, otherwise we are just clutching at straws.
The marriage cert is coming snail mail, so it will be a few weeks
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I thought that the marriage cert you are waiting for is the Henry Adams / Anne Roberts one, I am referring to the Mary Helm marriage
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I thought that the marriage cert you are waiting for is the Henry Adams / Anne Roberts one, I am referring to the Mary Helm marriage
Oh yes, I have not even been able to pin that one down as yet. I don't know if they married in Manchester, elsewhere in Lancs or in Lyon
I see that there are other Helm-Helms-Helme/Robert couples in Lyon so, I think there is a correlation. They are on familysearch.org
There appears to be a Doruthe Helme who is married to a Jean Robert in the 1861 census, living near Marie & Jean
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Alexander Robert was mentioned as one of the godparents of Adolphus, the image is on FindMyPast.
There is a Thomas Alexander Adams living at 77, John-street, Fitzroy-St Leonard, Shoreditch in the 1858 electoral roll. He is not there the previous year. Obvioulsy women didn't have the vote, so I don't know where godmother Carlotta B***t was living at the time as yet.
The godmother could be Charlotte Becket, in the 1861 census
b 1819 Yorkshire, England Head living at 3 Portland Place, Clerkenwell, Finsbury, Middlesex. There is a Charlotte Adams listed in the household as a visitor for that night, born in Bristol however.
I attach the godmother's handwritten entry in the 1857 birth entry for Adolphus Adams. I assume Carlotta is Latin for Charlotte.
There is no Alexander Adams listed in that 1861 census entry though.
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French Birth Certificate for Jean-Marie ROBERTS born 28 April 1848. Mother = Marie Dorothée HELM, father = Jean ROBERTS (porcelain maker),
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/a75a6e72a0f76b8b34edfdf67af6e019 (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/a75a6e72a0f76b8b34edfdf67af6e019)
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If the above parents are correct, they had another child, Marie born on 3 February 1847 and baptised on 4 February.
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/699b58dfbefa02618db4fbe71696e507 (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/699b58dfbefa02618db4fbe71696e507)
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Alexander Robert was mentioned as one of the godparents of Adolphus, the image is on FindMyPast.
There is a Thomas Alexander Adams living at 77, John-street, Fitzroy-St Leonard, Shoreditch in the 1858 electoral roll. He is not there the previous year. Obvioulsy women didn't have the vote, so I don't know where godmother Carlotta B***t was living at the time as yet.
There is no Alexander Adams listed in that 1861 census entry though.
You need Alexander Robert not Alexander Adams :-\
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Alexander Robert was mentioned as one of the godparents of Adolphus, the image is on FindMyPast.
There is a Thomas Alexander Adams living at 77, John-street, Fitzroy-St Leonard, Shoreditch in the 1858 electoral roll. He is not there the previous year. Obvioulsy women didn't have the vote, so I don't know where godmother Carlotta B***t was living at the time as yet.
There is no Alexander Adams listed in that 1861 census entry though.
You need Alexander Robert not Alexander Adams :-\
my mistake! sorry
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French Birth Certificate for Jean-Marie ROBERTS born 28 April 1848. Mother = Marie Dorothée HELM, father = Jean ROBERTS (porcelain maker),
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/a75a6e72a0f76b8b34edfdf67af6e019 (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/a75a6e72a0f76b8b34edfdf67af6e019)
Thanks for those. This is where it gets confusing.
I am aware there was maybe another couple in Lyon at the time: Doruthe Helm & Jean Robert and they were living near the family i believe to be my family, in Petite Rue de Landine in the 1846 census. My family were Jean Robert & Marie Helm, in Rue de Landine in the 1851 census (father porcelain maker).. with two sons Jean and Joseph and a daughter Eliza. They may be the same family or simply related..... I'm a bit confused
here is the 1851 census:
Name:Jean Robert
Gender:homme (Male)
Nationality:Anglaise
Marital Status:Homme marié (Married)
Age:45
Birth Date:abt 1806
Residence Date:1851
Street Address:Rue de Landine
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Porcelainier
Jean Robert 45
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert 11
Joseph Robert 3
I think the two families must be related somehow, if not the same family. I've seen the family you're referring to on familysearch.org
This is the entry from the 1846 census:
Name:Doruthe Robert
Maiden Name:Helme
Gender:femme (Female)
Marital Status:Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Residence Date:1846
Street Address: Petite Rue de Landine
Residence Place:Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Jn Robert 40 (Head)
Doruthe Robert 33 Épouse (Wife)
Theresè Robert 8
Jn Robert 6
Jne Robert 2
William Robert 42 (brother)
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baz201 ok.Will stop looking. You'd mentioned a porcelain connection, so I was hoping it was the right family.
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baz201 ok.Will stop looking. You'd mentioned a porcelain connection, so I was hoping it was the right family.
Thankyou again. Yes, I think they are at the very least related, if not, the same family. It's a bit hard to work it out. I've saved the references you gave me.
Please Don't stop looking if you think you have anything else though!
The dates of birth for the parents though are remarkably close. I wouldn't rule out them being the same family
much appreciated!
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Alexander Robert was mentioned as one of the godparents of Adolphus, the image is on FindMyPast.
There is a Thomas Alexander Adams living at 77, John-street, Fitzroy-St Leonard, Shoreditch in the 1858 electoral roll. He is not there the previous year. Obvioulsy women didn't have the vote, so I don't know where godmother Carlotta B***t was living at the time as yet.
There is no Alexander Adams listed in that 1861 census entry though.
You need Alexander Robert not Alexander Adams :-\
I found on the elctoral roll: Thomas Alex- Roberts, year: 1858, 28, Foley-place, St. Mary-le-Bone, St Pancras
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If the above parents are correct, they had another child, Marie born on 3 February 1847 and baptised on 4 February.
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/699b58dfbefa02618db4fbe71696e507 (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/699b58dfbefa02618db4fbe71696e507)
I think you might be onto something here. Familysearch.Org has four children listed
Jeanne b 1844
Marie 1847
Jean Marie 1848
Guilliame 1851
The two oldest girls could have died or could’ve gone to England with the uncle that is mentioned in the 1846 census (William)
Guilliame Might have been born after the 1851 census was taken, and I think I have seen Joseph referred to as Jean Joseph elsewhere. Meaning the Jean Marie mentioned here could be the Joseph in the 1851 census.
That leaves the mystery of where were Eliza and the other older Jean (b 1840) at the 1846 census however. They are both mentioned in the 1851 census.
Elsewhere, earlier in the thread, we have Joseph working in some kind of a home for children in the 1856 census and not living with his parents, so the two missing on the 1846 census could have been anywhere?
Cheers
Barry
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Which website are you using for French census :-\.
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Which website are you using for French census :-\.
Ancestry.com
you have to search under “Rhône census” in the Card catalogue
The French census was taken every 5 years
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This is the Birth Certificate for Jeanne ROBERTS born on 17 November 1844 to John ROBERTS and Dorothée HELM:
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/530b159cfbd3bc21c0ca12318fd8c946 (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/530b159cfbd3bc21c0ca12318fd8c946)
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Death of Emma ROBERTS aged 20 months (Died in Lyon, but shown as born in Besançon, Doubs). Died on 1 April 1844. John ROBERTS shown as faïencier (potter producing earthenware) and mother, Dorothée HELM.
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/79717735ab8f204a210891000eaff90e (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/79717735ab8f204a210891000eaff90e)
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Emma's Birth Certificate - born 24 August 1842, Besançon, Doubs.
https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819 (https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819)
shows John ROBERTS as born in "Flowry-field", England and Dorothée HELM as born in Preston, England.
Hopefully that will begin to narrow down if these are the right people. Flowery Field appears to be an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester.
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It has been suggested to me that I shouldn't be posting archive images so will remove them. The relevant entries can still be viewed by clicking on the relevant links…
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You mentioned Guillaume ROBERT, this is his Birth Certificate (DOB 6 June 1851). Top right of page, entry No. 2327.
Jean ROBERT = porcelain painter
http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/80d47083adbb192e1a7e073eda8f9eb7 (http://www.fondsenligne.archives-lyon.fr/v2/ark:/18811/80d47083adbb192e1a7e073eda8f9eb7)
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shows John ROBERTS as born in "Flowry-field", England and Dorothée HELM as born in Preston, England.
Hopefully that will begin to narrow down if these are the right people. Flowery Field appears to be an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester.
Unless "Flowry Field" was Fallowfield in Manchester.
If Dorothy and Mary were really born in the town of Preston and if they were born into a Catholic family, their baptisms won't be online on commercial websites. Catholic church in Preston when Dorothy and Mary were born was St. Wilfrid & St. Mary. Registers at Lancashire Archives. Catholic Family History Society has produced a DVD, available to purchase from a commercial partner.
Burial register has also been transcribed, indexed and put on a specially created website by a volunteer. He's also adding biographical information if he can find any. He seems to have researched up to surnames beginning Ha. There were 35 Helm/Helme/Helem burials, 7 of them unnamed infants. There are addresses for some.
www.mit-stamtrae.co.uk/st-wilfrids/st_wilfrids_preston_index.htm
If link doesn't work an internet search for St. Wilfrid cemetery Preston should find it.
The priest did a census of Catholics in 1810 and repeated the exercise in 1820. Published in 1 book by Lancashire Family History Society. I've mislaid my copy. (A quick prayer to St. Anthony for help finding it didn't produce the book but a digital version. :)) An article on Preston History blog "Counting Catholics in 19th-century Preston" contains a link to an Excel file. It begins with 1810 census. Surnames are in vague alphabetical order (C before D but not always Catteral before Crombleholme). The book was easier for me to read and find people in. Contains around 9,000 names. Around 20% of Preston population were Catholic.
https://prestonhistory.com/sources-2/counting-catholics-an-1820-census-of-preston
If Dorothy and Mary belonged to Catholic families in a village/town near Preston, historical registers may have been transcribed, indexed & published by the Catholic Record Society in their journals a century ago. Those journals have now been digitised and put online for free access.
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Emma's Birth Certificate - born 24 August 1842, Besançon, Doubs.
https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819 (https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819)
shows John ROBERTS as born in "Flowry-field", England and Dorothée HELM as born in Preston, England.
Hopefully that will begin to narrow down if these are the right people. Flowery Field appears to be an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester.
WOW! You are amazing! You've found so much relevant material. Excellent detective work! Thank you so much! Merci Beaucoup! I am getting more and more convinced that Dorothée and Marie are the one and the same person (Dorothy/Dotothée was a probably a middle name) and we are dealing with the same John (Jean) Roberts/Robert.
She is also known as Doruthe in 1846 Lyon census in the Rhône archives (on ancestry).
Name: Doruthe Robert
Maiden Name: Helme
Gender: femme (Female)
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Residence Date: 1846
Street Address: Petite Rue de Landine
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Relationship:Épouse (Wife)
Jn Robert 40 (Head)
Doruthe Robert 33 Épouse (Wife)
Theresè Robert 8
Jn Robert 6 Fils
Jne Robert 2
William Robert 42 (brother) - presumably also from Flowery Field
compare 1851 Lyon census:
Name: Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender: femme (Female)
Nationality: Anglaise
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age: 36
Birth Date: abt 1815
Residence Date: 1851
Street Address: Rue de Landine
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Journalier
Relationship: Épouse (Wife)
Jean Robert 45
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert, 11
Joseph Robert 3
Regarding John's place of birth, as listed on daughter Emma's birth records that you found:
There is a Flowery Field Primary School in the Hyde area of Manchester.
https://floweryfieldschool.org.uk
as well as a Flowery Field Railway station
Flowery Field on Google maps
https://goo.gl/maps/7RMFE5fWzmAZhaP96
"Flowery Field is an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester, England. It is a mainly residential area once dominated by Ashton Brothers Textile Mill"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowery_Field
My guess is that he was also Catholic. Would that mean he is also hard to find in births on commercial websites?
Here's perhaps a further clue from the 1836 Lyon census that I cannot seem to bring up using the Rhône Archives website (I am not very conversant with the geography of Lyon and how it was categorised in 1836)
This is from ancestry.com
Name: Jn Louis Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Marital Status: Homme marié (Married)
Age: 32
Birth Date: abt 1804
Residence Date: 1836
Street Address: Rue de Marbresa
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Guimpier
Family Number: 1021
Individual Number: 1
Household Age Relationship
Jn Louis Robert 32
Marie Robert 20 Fe
Anne Robert 2
A Guimpier was someone who sold the eloborate silk brocade weaving for which Lyon was famous. Lyon was the home of Joseph Marie Jacquard, and his revolutionary silk weaving method, I am told. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine
See this video, which gives a bit more info about his revolutionay weaving loom (about 9 mins into the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7HH0PCqIE&t=722s
I think this is likely the same family. The ages roughly match. I won't post the image.
This is a wild guess, but perhaps he went to Lyon as a weaver (as Flowery Field was known for weaving, as stated above) and elsewhere it has been suggested that the Helm families around Preston were also invoved in weaving. He later branched out into Faïence pottery, which took its inspiraton from the weaving patterns.
https://rare-ceramics.com/wp-content/uploads/Publications/Early_French_Soft_Paste_Porcelain.pdf
see page 50
Barry
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shows John ROBERTS as born in "Flowry-field", England and Dorothée HELM as born in Preston, England.
Hopefully that will begin to narrow down if these are the right people. Flowery Field appears to be an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester.
Unless "Flowry Field" was Fallowfield in Manchester.
If Dorothy and Mary were really born in the town of Preston and if they were born into a Catholic family, their baptisms won't be online on commercial websites. Catholic church in Preston when Dorothy and Mary were born was St. Wilfrid & St. Mary. Registers at Lancashire Archives. Catholic Family History Society has produced a DVD, available to purchase from a commercial partner.
Burial register has also been transcribed, indexed and put on a specially created website by a volunteer. He's also adding biographical information if he can find any. He seems to have researched up to surnames beginning Ha. There were 35 Helm/Helme/Helem burials, 7 of them unnamed infants. There are addresses for some.
www.mit-stamtrae.co.uk/st-wilfrids/st_wilfrids_preston_index.htm
If link doesn't work an internet search for St. Wilfrid cemetery Preston should find it.
The priest did a census of Catholics in 1810 and repeated the exercise in 1820. Published in 1 book by Lancashire Family History Society. I've mislaid my copy. (A quick prayer to St. Anthony for help finding it didn't produce the book but a digital version. :)) An article on Preston History blog "Counting Catholics in 19th-century Preston" contains a link to an Excel file. It begins with 1810 census. Surnames are in vague alphabetical order (C before D but not always Catteral before Crombleholme). The book was easier for me to read and find people in. Contains around 9,000 names. Around 20% of Preston population were Catholic.
https://prestonhistory.com/sources-2/counting-catholics-an-1820-census-of-preston
If Dorothy and Mary belonged to Catholic families in a village/town near Preston, historical registers may have been transcribed, indexed & published by the Catholic Record Society in their journals a century ago. Those journals have now been digitised and put online for free access.
Thanks once again, much appreciated.
I have checked the Dunn's Catholic censuses for Preston and found the following:
1820: Helm, Dorothy age 7 yrs, abode: Paradise St; living with brother Robert age 3; and Teresa age 1.
Their parents names are Thomas and Betty but no ages are given for them in the 1820 entry. I do not seem to be able to locate Thomas with wife Betty in the 1810 census. There is a Betty Helm (aged 11) living at Cotton Court in 1810.
There is a Thomas Helm with wife Ann, with different children (no Mary or Dorothy) in Stanley Street in 1810. There is no entry for a Thomas Helm in the Catholic Trade directory.
For 1820, there is also a Maria Helman, age 1, living in Singleton Row, with parents James & Mary and siblings John, 12; Ann, 11; Margaret 5; Alice 3.
All the other Mary Helm's (and name variants) are of adult age (parents) for 1820.
In the 1810 census there is also a Mary Helmn [sic] aged 3 living with brother William age 1; with parents William and Ann (no age given) no address given
I was able to get the burials link to work.
A Betty Helm was buried 28 Dec 1822 (no address or age given)
The Thomas Helm's listed are too young to be Dorothy's father.
There is no Robert or Teresa Helm in the burial list.
The Margaret Higgins Database of Catholics in England and Their Friends:1607-1840 is available here:
https://genfair.co.uk/product/the-margaret-higgins-database-of-catholics-in-england-and-their-friends-1607-1840-11833761/
The link on the page was broken.
As it was partially compiled by an Australian (Brother Rory Higgins), I've written to the Australian Catholic Historical Society to see if it is available in Australia. Post from overseas is so slow atm due to covid.
If Dorothy and Mary belonged to Catholic families in a village/town near Preston, historical registers may have been transcribed, indexed & published by the Catholic Record Society in their journals a century ago. Those journals have now been digitised and put online for free access.
wondering where to find these?
cheers, Barry
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Emma's Birth Certificate - born 24 August 1842, Besançon, Doubs.
https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819 (https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819)
shows John ROBERTS as born in "Flowry-field", England and Dorothée HELM as born in Preston, England.
Hopefully that will begin to narrow down if these are the right people. Flowery Field appears to be an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester.
WOW! You are amazing! You've found so much relevant material. Excellent detective work! Thank you so much! Merci Beaucoup! I am getting more and more convinced that Dorothée and Marie are the one and the same person (Dorothy/Dotothée was a probably a middle name) and we are dealing with the same John (Jean) Roberts/Robert.
She is also known as Doruthe in 1846 Lyon census in the Rhône archives (on ancestry).
Name: Doruthe Robert
Maiden Name: Helme
Gender: femme (Female)
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Residence Date: 1846
Street Address: Petite Rue de Landine
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Relationship:Épouse (Wife)
Jn Robert 40 (Head)
Doruthe Robert 33 Épouse (Wife)
Theresè Robert 8
Jn Robert 6 Fils
Jne Robert 2
William Robert 42 (brother) - presumably also from Flowery Field
compare 1851 Lyon census:
Name: Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender: femme (Female)
Nationality: Anglaise
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age: 36
Birth Date: abt 1815
Residence Date: 1851
Street Address: Rue de Landine
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Journalier
Relationship: Épouse (Wife)
Jean Robert 45
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert, 11
Joseph Robert 3
Regarding John's place of birth, as listed on daughter Emma's birth records that you found:
There is a Flowery Field Primary School in the Hyde area of Manchester.
https://floweryfieldschool.org.uk
as well as a Flowery Field Railway station
Flowery Field on Google maps
https://goo.gl/maps/7RMFE5fWzmAZhaP96
"Flowery Field is an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester, England. It is a mainly residential area once dominated by Ashton Brothers Textile Mill"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowery_Field
My guess is that he was also Catholic. Would that mean he is also hard to find in births on commercial websites?
Here's perhaps a further clue from the 1836 Lyon census that I cannot seem to bring up using the Rhône Archives website (I am not very conversant with the geography of Lyon and how it was categorised in 1836)
This is from ancestry.com
Name: Jn Louis Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Marital Status: Homme marié (Married)
Age: 32
Birth Date: abt 1804
Residence Date: 1836
Street Address: Rue de Marbresa
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Guimpier
Family Number: 1021
Individual Number: 1
Household Age Relationship
Jn Louis Robert 32
Marie Robert 20 Fe
Anne Robert 2
A Guimpier was someone who sold the eloborate silk brocade weaving for which Lyon was famous. Lyon was the home of Joseph Marie Jacquard, and his revolutionary silk weaving method, I am told. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine
See this video, which gives a bit more info about his revolutionay weaving loom (about 9 mins into the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7HH0PCqIE&t=722s
I think this is likely the same family. The ages roughly match. I won't post the image.
This is a wild guess, but perhaps he went to Lyon as a weaver (as Flowery Field was known for weaving, as stated above) and elsewhere it has been suggested that the Helm families around Preston were also invoved in weaving. He later branched out into Faïence pottery, which took its inspiraton from the weaving patterns.
https://rare-ceramics.com/wp-content/uploads/Publications/Early_French_Soft_Paste_Porcelain.pdf
see page 50
Barry
if you look at the Birth Certificate for Jean-Marie ROBERTS born 28 April 1848. Mother = Marie Dorothée HELM, father = Jean ROBERTS (porcelain maker). So I agree that it is likely that Marie Dorothée / Mary Dorothy tended to go by her middle name. Let me know if there's anything else you're looking for in France…
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Emma's Birth Certificate - born 24 August 1842, Besançon, Doubs.
https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819 (https://memoirevive.besancon.fr/ark:/48565/4q6wgzd9pfnb/5ad5d346-1728-4552-bf42-c1cd5875e819)
shows John ROBERTS as born in "Flowry-field", England and Dorothée HELM as born in Preston, England.
Hopefully that will begin to narrow down if these are the right people. Flowery Field appears to be an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester.
WOW! You are amazing! You've found so much relevant material. Excellent detective work! Thank you so much! Merci Beaucoup! I am getting more and more convinced that Dorothée and Marie are the one and the same person (Dorothy/Dotothée was a probably a middle name) and we are dealing with the same John (Jean) Roberts/Robert.
She is also known as Doruthe in 1846 Lyon census in the Rhône archives (on ancestry).
Name: Doruthe Robert
Maiden Name: Helme
Gender: femme (Female)
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Residence Date: 1846
Street Address: Petite Rue de Landine
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Relationship:Épouse (Wife)
Jn Robert 40 (Head)
Doruthe Robert 33 Épouse (Wife)
Theresè Robert 8
Jn Robert 6 Fils
Jne Robert 2
William Robert 42 (brother) - presumably also from Flowery Field
compare 1851 Lyon census:
Name: Marie Robert
Maiden Name: Helm
Gender: femme (Female)
Nationality: Anglaise
Marital Status: Femme mariée (Married (Female))
Age: 36
Birth Date: abt 1815
Residence Date: 1851
Street Address: Rue de Landine
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Journalier
Relationship: Épouse (Wife)
Jean Robert 45
Marie Robert 36 Épouse (Wife)
Eliza Robert 17
Jean Robert, 11
Joseph Robert 3
Regarding John's place of birth, as listed on daughter Emma's birth records that you found:
There is a Flowery Field Primary School in the Hyde area of Manchester.
https://floweryfieldschool.org.uk
as well as a Flowery Field Railway station
Flowery Field on Google maps
https://goo.gl/maps/7RMFE5fWzmAZhaP96
"Flowery Field is an area of Hyde, Greater Manchester, England. It is a mainly residential area once dominated by Ashton Brothers Textile Mill"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowery_Field
My guess is that he was also Catholic. Would that mean he is also hard to find in births on commercial websites?
Here's perhaps a further clue from the 1836 Lyon census that I cannot seem to bring up using the Rhône Archives website (I am not very conversant with the geography of Lyon and how it was categorised in 1836)
This is from ancestry.com
Name: Jn Louis Robert
Gender: homme (Male)
Marital Status: Homme marié (Married)
Age: 32
Birth Date: abt 1804
Residence Date: 1836
Street Address: Rue de Marbresa
Residence Place: Lyon, Lyon, Rhône, France
Occupation: Guimpier
Family Number: 1021
Individual Number: 1
Household Age Relationship
Jn Louis Robert 32
Marie Robert 20 Fe
Anne Robert 2
A Guimpier was someone who sold the eloborate silk brocade weaving for which Lyon was famous. Lyon was the home of Joseph Marie Jacquard, and his revolutionary silk weaving method, I am told. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquard_machine
See this video, which gives a bit more info about his revolutionay weaving loom (about 9 mins into the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj7HH0PCqIE&t=722s
I think this is likely the same family. The ages roughly match. I won't post the image.
This is a wild guess, but perhaps he went to Lyon as a weaver (as Flowery Field was known for weaving, as stated above) and elsewhere it has been suggested that the Helm families around Preston were also invoved in weaving. He later branched out into Faïence pottery, which took its inspiraton from the weaving patterns.
https://rare-ceramics.com/wp-content/uploads/Publications/Early_French_Soft_Paste_Porcelain.pdf
see page 50
Barry
if you look at the Birth Certificate for Jean-Marie ROBERTS born 28 April 1848. Mother = Marie Dorothée HELM, father = Jean ROBERTS (porcelain maker). So I agree that it is likely that Marie Dorothée / Mary Dorothy tended to go by her middle name. Let me know if there's anything else you're looking for in France…
Thanks again Manukarik. Yes, I do have some more questions, but I'll take it slowly. Firstly, Marie Roberts appears on the 1861 census in London as a widow, working as a nurse; so Jean Roberts senior must have died either in France (or England) in the in between period (1851-1861). Can you check if he died in France, or if there is a record of him dying in France? Hopefully I've given enough information about him above for you to calculate his approximate age. The last record I seem to have is him living at Rue de Landine in Lyon in the 1851 Lyon census (now known as Rue Delandine).
Also, there is an entry on page 2 of this thread, where I posted the original excerpt from that census. Are you able to decipher the profession of Marie (née Helm) in that image please?
Thankyou again!
Barry
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Barry
I think in the 1851 Census it says for Marie HELM/ROBERT…
sa femme, même profession (ie his wife, same profession = porcelainier = porcelain maker).
I'm trying to find a better copy of the census to double check, but am pretty sure that's what it says.
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Can't find a Death Certificate for Jean / John in France for the period you've suggested. Sorry!
-
Barry
I think in the 1851 Census it says for Marie HELM/ROBERT…
sa femme, même profession (ie his wife, same profession = porcelainier = porcelain maker).
I'm trying to find a better copy of the census to double check, but am pretty sure that's what it says.
merci beaucoup!
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Can't find a Death Certificate for Jean / John in France for the period you've suggested. Sorry!
OK, that would suggest he died in England most likely, unless he seperated from his wife, but then I doubt she would have put widow on her 1861 London census entry..
I'll come back to the rest of the family once I've got it all sorted out.
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Can't find a Death Certificate for Jean / John in France for the period you've suggested. Sorry!
Found this on ancestry.com
Name:Jean Louis Antoine Emile Roberts
Gender:homme (Male)
Record Type:Naissance (Birth)
Birth Date:6 mars 1840 (6 Mar 1840)
Birth Place:Grigny, Lyon, Rhône, France
Father:Joachim Roberts
Mother:Doratha Helms
I wonder how the mother fits in with the family, given that hse has such a similar name?