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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Arnside98 on Saturday 08 January 22 18:40 GMT (UK)

Title: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 08 January 22 18:40 GMT (UK)
Hi.
My great Aunt’s husband and 2 sons emigrated to Australia in 1897. She was told they sailed on the Ionic under assumed names. See the below newspaper article she put in the gazette. I believe I have found them on the onion manifest under the names of John, George and Lewis Johnston - sailing to Hobart. I have hit a dead end though. Any advice? Could they have sailed on to later ports or even hopped off in South Africa (the port before)? How easy was it to change names once you landed? Thanks for any suggestions.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 08 January 22 22:03 GMT (UK)
Need some background and context here

Is the notice from a newspaper...police gazette....what?.

Can you give a title and date for the article please.

John Edmund SMITH 39y, Owen Edmund Gordon SMITH 11y and Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH 8y are missing from their family after their names on the passenger list, 1897?

John Edmund SMITH  .....what date and place of birth do you have for him?. What occupation do you have for him?   Who/when/where did he marry?  What children did he have, additional to Owen and Richard?

Was he estranged from Edith...divorced...what?

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 08 January 22 23:04 GMT (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat

Wivenhoe is asking some important questions to help your quest.

I can see on the Hobart, Tasmania online 'Tasmanian Names Index' that in 1897 there  is a listing for  a George Johnston, a child.  Sadly it is for a burial. This lad was recorded as aged 7.  It is possible that the clergy may have misheard his age as the information would be given verbally and accents can  confuse 'seven' with 'eleven'. 

Cornelian Bay Cemetery,  C of E, Section N, Row O, 


https://stors.tas.gov.au/AF70-1-23$init=AF70-1-23p73jpg

JM  EDIT TO STRIKE THROUGH,  see reply #6 the death registration shows this young child was born Tasmania.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 08 January 22 23:13 GMT (UK)
Passenger list segment here. Spelling is JOHNSON
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 08 January 22 23:29 GMT (UK)
Great Find Neale.

The Tasmanian Names Index has both JOHNSON and JOHNSTON for the burial I offered.   
https://librariestas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/?

It seems likely the voyage from London was westward across the Atlantic, around Cape Horn and across the Pacific to Wellington then on to Australian Ports.   I don't have the Victoria Police Gazettes in my collection of reliable resources  ::)  but the image our OP posted does have "O.2501 21st March, 1898"  which likely is the printers reference markings.

JM  ADD,  I may be misreading the route the Ionic took.  It may have come via Africa rather than South America.  ::) 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 08 January 22 23:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks for the replies. My great Aunt Edith Kate Mahon was born in 1864 in Pimlico, London. She was a pianist that spent time in Philadelphia and Chicago. I think she was estranged from her husband (married 1885 London) John Edmund Smith born 1858 New Malden Surrey Uk. They had three children Owen Edmund born 1885, Bertram Gordon 1887-1888 and then Owen Lionel gordon 1889. The image I attached is from a Victoria Police Gazette. I’ll re attach it. Thanks for all your help so far !
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 00:01 GMT (UK)
Following up on that burial I noted earlier.

Please see the image https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27M-B25Z  as it gives sufficient information about the child's death that I will go back and strike through my earlier post.

1468, 12 August 1897, Barrack St
George JOHNSTONE, (Born Tasmania) male, 4 years
Labourers child, Tumour of the Brain,  Dr Wolfhagen, A Clark undertaker, 16 August 1897.

JM  ADD ... I have edited.  11.04 a.m. NSW daylight savings time.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 09 January 22 00:13 GMT (UK)

From census 1891 John Edmund SMITH is a bankers clerk.

SMITH would seem to be a good anonymous name.

Why would you change family name.......... and given names?.

People do not casually assume a given name. Responding to hearing your name is a basic and spontaneous human behaviour. You can be caught out using a given name that is of recent invention.

Do you think that Edith was given the correct information?

What happened to Edith?. Did she stay in USA....return to England?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 00:20 GMT (UK)
Johnston/Johnson/Johnstone should also be considered an anonymous as SMITH  - I think it may be even more popular than BROWN or JONES back in the late 19th century.

Wivenhoe, do you have the census reference for that 1891 sighting please?

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 09 January 22 00:29 GMT (UK)

Ancestry Westminster Baptism
SMITH Owen Edmund Gordon 21 Apr 1886   born 11 Dec 1885
parents John Edmund, bankers clerk, and Edith Kate
Abode 42 Chaldon Rd Fulham

Ancestry Census England 1891

SMITH Owen  1886   born Fulham   residence Fulham

Ed 9...Piece 48...Folio 70
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 00:39 GMT (UK)
Thanks Wivenhoe,

That would match up with this https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:3TY2-N3Z

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 00:50 GMT (UK)
Thanks. I have all the census when they were living together and their families before that. Edith appeared to go to the States when her boys were very young. I am not sure how often she returned to London. My grandfather knew she was a ‘famous’ pianist in the States. Thomas Eades painted a portrait of her in 1903. It’s still hanging in a gallery in Philadelphia (I think). She moved back to London in the 20s and was buried there.
I just don’t know what happened when they got to Tasmania - assuming they got off there. John Edmund Smith/Edward Johnson had an older brother that emigrated to Sydney so I wondered if he ended up there. I can’t find any information on that though.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 00:53 GMT (UK)
what name for the older brother please, the NSW connection.   :)

 :D  :D  :D Having the UK census info gives confidence to each of us and so I wonder about the others in the household in 1891...  the servant lass - could she have accompanied Edith to the USA or the boys to Tasmania?

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 09 January 22 01:00 GMT (UK)
A speculative thought here.

I am surprised there has not been mention of a woman involved here.

A man travelling alone could attend to the needs of a couple of young boys, but upon landing and settling would need to have daily employment and care for the children's schooling, and other needs would need to be the responsibility of another.
Generally female!

I would guess his background in banking would set him up well for employment in that field.

Thoughts of no particular assistance ;D

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 01:01 GMT (UK)
Sorry I meant younger brother. George Arthur Smith born 1860. Died 1910 Waverley NSW.
I don’t have any idea about the boarder or servant in 1891 - The surnames aren’t familiar.
It seems strange in those times that a mother would leave her young children to get on a ship . I know one had just died. Career woman but I think she had a bad marriage based on info I found online around her painting.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 01:03 GMT (UK)
Sorry I meant younger brother. George Arthur Smith born 1860. Died 1910 Waverley NSW.
I don’t have any idea about the boarder or servant in 1891 - The surnames aren’t familiar.
It seems strange in those times that a mother would leave her young children to get on a ship . I know one had just died. Career woman but I think she had a bad marriage based on info I found online around her painting.

I will go through my offline collection of SMITH in that era in NSW.  I am a tad NSW centric.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 01:05 GMT (UK)
Thanks Sue. Yes I am sure he’d need some child care of some sort. It’s hard to imagine the life of a single
parent arriving at a port the other side of the world. I would love to find information on them for my mum - only living Mahon that I know. It’s been a family mystery for over 100 years !
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 09 January 22 01:13 GMT (UK)
As a matter of interest, the only single English woman shown on the passenger list as disembarking at Hobart was one
Miss HEATHCOTE, a saloon passenger.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~shipstonz/genealogy/PassLists/ionicmay1897.html

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 01:49 GMT (UK)
Agree with Sue. 

I have had a quick offline look through my 'wallpaper' collection of SMITH NSW BDM transcriptions and I don't have George SMITH.   But I have then turned to some resources that are readily available online at links found at RChat's NSW Resources Board. 

George did not die at Waverley, but he was buried in the cemetery there.

I am not sure how you have confirmed that the following chap is the brother of your elusive John.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164291076 Sydney Mail 2 Feb 1910
SMITH January 23 at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, George Arthur Smith aged 50 years.

NSW BDM online index  https://www.nsw.gov.au/family-and-relationships/family-history-search
George A SMITH, father’s given name recorded as John, NO mother’s given name recorded, registered Newtown District.  Ref 2512/1910  which drills down to 23 January

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238353707     Daily Tele 12 March 1910 
Intestate Estate announcement. George Arthur SMITH late of Petersham.

George Arthur SMITH buried Waverley Cemetery 24 January 1910. Aged 50.  W-19- CE-0R-5526

Sands 1910 Sydney Directory page 1337 (closing date for entries was Oct 1909)  https://archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/63714
George SMITH, 104 Crystal St, Petersham  - I am NOT sure if this is 'your' George.
 
If you were to concentrate on Sydney for your John, then please do consider the online resources, freely and readily available online at : https://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/history-archive-collections/archives

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 09 January 22 02:15 GMT (UK)

SMH 26 Jan 1910
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15157589?
SMITH-January 23 1910 George Arthur dearly loved father of Florence E. HAVENSTEIN of Warriston, 47 Margaret-street, Petersham aged 50 years.

NSW BDM death
2512/1910  SMITH George A     parents  John    @  Newtown

marriage
175/1903   SMITH Florence E    x    HAVENSTEIN    Gustavus C   @  Sydney

4618/1916 HAVENSTEIN  Florence E    x  FOUNTAIN  John G S   @  Sydney
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 02:21 GMT (UK)
Hmmm. Maybe the George that died isn’t my George.
George did end up in Sydney though. He was a Widower when he married Ida Tindell on 31st May 1893 at St Michael Church in Sydney. His birth location is New Malden Surrey England - my missing man’s same birth location so I’m sure this is his brother.

Thanks for all the links. I’ve mainly been searching through ancestry.com but that has its limitations.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 03:45 GMT (UK)
Perhaps a side track

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6Z71-SXJ9

Adelaide South Australia
West Terrace Cemetery
Lionel Richard JOHNSON .

S.A. genealogy online https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-database-search - reference no.    667/4434

Newspaper cutting has his age as 51.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48764511 The Advertiser, 21 August 1943 names his wife and children.  I have not looked further for them, and it is possible that the children are still living.  I am of course speculating that there MAY be a connection. It is also entirely possible that I am way way way off track.  Hasten slowly... check, check and check again OFF line .  South Australia has very very strict privacy rules.

JM

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 04:47 GMT (UK)
Can't help with finding them in Australia, however John Edmund SMITH, bank cashier of the London and County Bank, Hammersmith branch is mentioned as a witness in a cheque fraud case in 1886.
Wednesday,  Dec. 8, 1886, Publication: The Times

Then in 1894 there are a number of items about another fraud case where he is mentioned as manager of the Bayswater branch of the London and County Bank. eg
Saturday,  July 28, 1894, Publication: Sheffield Evening Telegraph

Happy to send you copies if you're interested.

Does seem strange a bank manager travelling under an alias and disappearing. Very intriguing.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 09 January 22 05:08 GMT (UK)
How do you explain to an eight year old that he has a new name and no component of it is the same as his real name.
The eight year olds I know would fluff it up in no time. ::)

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 05:11 GMT (UK)
Exactly so Sue,  unless of course they have been surrounded by people referring to them as Master Hugh for their entire life.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 05:16 GMT (UK)
My ancient living rellies want to know WHY their mother waited near on twelve months to seek assistance from Victoria's police and WHY ask Victoria police anyway.   There's not a sighting of anyone named as Edith Kate SMITH in the trove digitised newspapers...

EDIT I will re-word that   ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)

Why did Edith Kate SMITH wait sooooooooo long to seek her children's location,  how did she know they were travelling under those names and why did she think they landed in Melbourne Victoria when she thought they were to disembark in Sydney NSW, but they were actually ticketed to Hobart Tasmania.  In that era, that is three separate British Colonies.   

And What was her professional name as a pianist ....

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 05:23 GMT (UK)
I have edited my post, as requested by ancient living rellie /s.  (Green lights on everyone)

My ancient living rellies want to know WHY their mother waited near on twelve months to seek assistance from Victoria's police and WHY ask Victoria police anyway.   There's not a sighting of anyone named as Edith Kate SMITH in the trove digitised newspapers...

EDIT I will re-word that   ::)  ::)  ::)  ::)

Why did Edith Kate SMITH wait sooooooooo long to seek her children's location,  how did she know they were travelling under those names and why did she think they landed in Melbourne Victoria when she thought they were to disembark in Sydney NSW, but they were actually ticketed to Hobart Tasmania.  In that era, that is three separate British Colonies.   

And What was her professional name as a pianist ....

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 09 January 22 05:40 GMT (UK)
If this bank clerk John Edmund Smith (who appears to be very cunning) wanted to evade detection, he probably would have disembarked at a different port from where he was documented as going.
He may have gone on to NZ or left ship in Sth Africa.
And then he may have changed names yet again. Finding him without knowing his name or the place is probably not likely.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 05:46 GMT (UK)
in 1891...  the servant lass - could she have accompanied Edith to the USA or the boys to Tasmania?

JM

I think Annie Lizzie WATKINS is still in the UK in 1901, a servant to the family of William COLLINS, surveyor, at Barrow Rd, Streatham.

If this bank clerk John Edmund Smith (who appears to be very cunning) wanted to evade detection, he probably would have disembarked at a different port from where he was documented as going.
He may have gone on to NZ or left ship in Sth Africa.
And then he may have changed names yet again. Finding him without knowing his name or the place is probably not likely.

Yes, I wondered if he left the ship earlier. Not on the (small) list of passengers disembarked in NZ.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r64/

Modified to add:
Just read it again, and these are only the passengers going on to Auckland, so he could still have been on it.  :-\
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 09 January 22 05:58 GMT (UK)
Edith Kate did not have her facts quite straight when she advertised.
Both the outward from UK passenger list and the inward to Wellington NZ list the group as-
 
Ed JOHNSON
Geo JOHNSON
Lewis JOHNSON

Disembarkation for the family Hobart

What was the source of her information?
Brother in law George in Sydney?

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 06:00 GMT (UK)
Yes,  we really don't know... so

Can we confirm when John Edmond SMITH married Edith Kate,  - and can we confirm where either of them were in say 1881, particularly John Smith … looking for his brother George Arthur SMITH who came to NSW?   I cannot find/isolate  George Arthur SMITH’s arrival to NSW and the 1910 death is now no longer confirmed as the brother of John Edmond SMITH or JOHNSON or variations 

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 06:03 GMT (UK)
John Edmund SMITH married Edith Kate MAHON on 1 Jan 1885. Marriage notice:
Monday,  Jan. 5, 1885, Publication: Morning Post

Modified to add:
St George Hanover Square (1a/569)

Modified again:
"On the 1st inst. at St Gabriel's Warwick square, by the Rev. Brymer Belcher, John Edmund Smith, 115 Warwick street, eldest surviving son of John Smith of New Malden, to Edith Kate, youngest daughter of John Mahon, of Westmorland street."
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 06:06 GMT (UK)
ta Maddy

I wonder if John Edmund SMITH returned to London as though on a round the world tour or later ...

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 09 January 22 06:35 GMT (UK)
Her is Edith’s portrait.
https://www.smith.edu/news/museum-welcomes-president-mccartney-with-art-stories

Scroll down to Mrs. Edith Mahon
ADDED- Edith, Rather than a piano soloist, she was an accompanist to opera divas.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 08:08 GMT (UK)
Thanks for your thoughts and information again! The fraud links seem to be the motivation for name changes and leaving the UK. Thanks Maddy if you can send them on that would be fantastic.
It does seem strange that Edith took over 12 months to find her family. No idea on the source of her information I’m afraid. My family don’t know much about her.

Would just changing your name once and fleeing to Australia be enough or would he feel like he has to change ports and names again? In todays era he’s but 120 years ago you’d think it would be easy to disappear. I agree
With the name changes  How do you get the kids to follow the new names?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 08:12 GMT (UK)
No problem Arnside98, though John wasn't involved in the frauds at all, just a witness involved in the cases. Will send you a pm.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 08:28 GMT (UK)
The only reference I can see of Edith in America is in the "Evening Journal"  21 Oct. 1908 (Wilmington, Delaware)

"To Interpret "Peer Gynt"
Laurence Eyre, assisted by Miss Josephine McCullen, dramatic soprano, and Mrs Edith Mahon, pianist, will render an interpretation of "Peer Gynt" this afternoon in the auditorium of the Century Club. Mr. Eyre was formerly of Julia Marlow's Company and [ ] well known as an actor."

There may be other references in newspapers to which I don't have access.  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 08:46 GMT (UK)
For interest (and for JM  :) ):

1871 census: SMITH family at New Malden:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRN8-BRP

In 1881 census: John E SMITH boarding at 115 Warwick St
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-DS51
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-DSD (previous page)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 08:55 GMT (UK)
The most amazing, bizarre thing happened. I was searching for William Arthur SMITH (brother of John Edmund) and was checking a marriage in St Michael's , Pimlico 8 May 1881 (father John SMITH) - but I don't think this is the right man as the father's occupation is quite different ("tallowman" cf clerk in 1871). Who should the very next marriage be but Maria SWEET and William Thomas STACEY - who were boarders with John Edmund SMITH in 1881.  :o :o
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 09 January 22 09:07 GMT (UK)

I think destination Hobart is for all passengers not going on to New Zealand. Hobart was the only Australian port of call for the "Ionic".

If Edith has means of knowing that husband John left on the "Ionic", Edith would know the only port of call was Hobart......have reason to think that he would be heading for Sydney, but that he actually went to Melbourne.

The Mercury 28 May 1897 p 2
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9397968?
....The number of passengers who landed here for different Australian ports was 50.

Both sons would be of the WW1 enlistment generation........born 1885 Fulham London, born 1889 Fulham London.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 09:12 GMT (UK)
Just in reference to the younger brother George Arthur Smith. The one that died in 1910, I am sure is his brother. See below for the link to his death notice “late of New Malden”. Same as John Edmund Smith/Ed Johnson. Thanks to the member that showed me this :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 09:14 GMT (UK)
Thanks Maddy  :D   ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

JM

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 09:21 GMT (UK)
Another lead ! a further daughter to George Arthur SMITH thanks to our OP

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15150052
smh 27 Jan 1910
SMITH  January 23, 1910 at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, George Arthur, dearly beloved father of Margaret Moran, of 52 Whistler Street, Manly, aged 50 years, late of Surrey, New Malden, England. 

JM Added my transcription of the notice.  May I note he had been buried several days earlier than this notice.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 09 January 22 09:32 GMT (UK)
I think this is the family in 1861.

Ancestry Census England 1861     at Ripley Villas New Maldon Surrey
SMITH JOHN                       45y    stationers clerk     b. Lyndhurst Hants
SMITH Margaret                  35y                         b. New Brunswick Aberdeen
SMITH Mary Ann                  16y                        b. St Martins Middlesex London
SMITH Frederick Chas          14y                         b. St Marys Islington
SMITH Sarah Emily              12y                         b. St Marys Islington
SMITH Harry Tyrrell              10y                        b. St Marys Islington
SMITH Alice Margt                  4y                        b. Maldon Surrey
SMITH John Edmund              3y                        b. Maldon Surrey
SMITH George Arthur             15m                     b. Maldon Surrey
ANNUND Eliza                      16y                         b. New Brunswick Jersey Channel Islands

Message #31  at marriage 1885, John Edmund SMITH ........eldest surviving son......

Frederick and Harry should be dead by 1885?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 09:35 GMT (UK)
Surely if you emigrate to the other side of the World in those days, you’d head to the city where your brother is?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 09:35 GMT (UK)
Sands 1909 Suburban Directory (page 425)
MANLY
Whistler Street - East side - Corner of Denison St heading towards Steinton Street
Miss Mary MORAN, Clyde Laundry.

Sands 1910 Alphabetical Directory (page 1204)
Miss Mary MORAN, 52 Whistler St MANLY

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 09:39 GMT (UK)
Surely if you emigrate to the other side of the World in those days, you’d head to the city where your brother is?

I don't have that as a pattern in any of my 1800s immigrant families on either my mother's or my father's line, nor on my husband's parents lines, nor on my cousins lines.

JM 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 09:40 GMT (UK)
Where did you find that John Edmund was the oldest surviving son in 1885? Newspaper article? I have Harry Tyrell down as dying in Germany 1914. Not sure about Fredrick. Of course I could have the wrong Harry Tyrell smith.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 09 January 22 09:44 GMT (UK)


At reply # 31

"On the 1st inst. at St Gabriel's Warwick square, by the Rev. Brymer Belcher, John Edmund Smith, 115 Warwick street, eldest surviving son of John Smith of New Malden, to Edith Kate, youngest daughter of John Mahon, of Westmorland street."
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 09:44 GMT (UK)
Quote from: Arnside98 on Today at 09:35
Surely if you emigrate to the other side of the World in those days, you’d head to the city where your brother is?

I don't have that as a pattern in any of my 1800s immigrant families on either my mother's or my father's line, nor on my husband's parents lines, nor on my cousins lines.


Oh interesting to know.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 09 January 22 09:46 GMT (UK)
Doesn't help, but I think John Edmund and Edith  had 3 children (all registered at Fulham):

Mar qtr 1886  Owen Edmund Gordon
Jun qtr 1887  Bertram Gordon  (died Mar qtr 1888)
Jun qtr 1889  Richard Lionel Gordon

On the 1910 census in Philadelphia she says she is divorced. Was there actually a divorce?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRV3-H29
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 09:47 GMT (UK)
John Edmund SMITH married Edith Kate MAHON on 1 Jan 1885. Marriage notice:
Monday,  Jan. 5, 1885, Publication: Morning Post

Modified to add:
St George Hanover Square (1a/569)

Modified again:
"On the 1st inst. at St Gabriel's Warwick square, by the Rev. Brymer Belcher, John Edmund Smith, 115 Warwick street, eldest surviving son of John Smith of New Malden, to Edith Kate, youngest daughter of John Mahon, of Westmorland street."
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 10:04 GMT (UK)
Doesn't help, but I think John Edmund and Edith  had 3 children (all registered at Fulham):

Mar qtr 1886  Owen Edmund Gordon
Jun qtr 1887  Bertram Gordon  (died Mar qtr 1888)
Jun qtr 1889  Richard Lionel Gordon

On the 1910 census in Philadelphia she says she is divorced. Was there actually a divorce?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GRV3-H29

Yes they had three children. Although one died as an infant in London. I can’t find a divorce but I guess with an AWOL husband it was what she termed it as. She’s buried under her married name but the death index is in her maiden name - Mahon. Based on records on ancestry
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 10:17 GMT (UK)
the 1910 census shows she immigrated to the USA in 1897.  So perhaps was divorce was in England. 

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 10:26 GMT (UK)
Perhaps a side track

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6Z71-SXJ9

Adelaide South Australia
West Terrace Cemetery
Lionel Richard JOHNSON .

S.A. genealogy online https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-database-search - reference no.    667/4434

Newspaper cutting has his age as 51.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/48764511 The Advertiser, 21 August 1943 names his wife and children.  I have not looked further for them, and it is possible that the children are still living.  I am of course speculating that there MAY be a connection. It is also entirely possible that I am way way way off track.  Hasten slowly... check, check and check again OFF line .  South Australia has very very strict privacy rules.

JM

Thanks for this find but I don’t think Lionel Richard Johnson is one of the child’s assumed names. This Lionel Richard was born in Oz.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 10:29 GMT (UK)
the 1910 census shows she immigrated to the USA in 1897.  So perhaps was divorce was in England. 

JM

That’s the year the ionic left England. I can’t find a divorce but It wasn’t something many people did. Divorce was probably socially acceptable when you haven’t seen your husband for x months.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 10:33 GMT (UK)
Have you considered that perhaps Edith Kate quit the marriage and left him with the children and that he may have obtained a divorce but because of his social standing, he left England with the lads and that is the reason for his change of name? 

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 18:41 GMT (UK)
Thanks JM. Yes this was our first belief. Divorce was rare, expensive and socially unacceptable. I understand proof was needed and hard for a woman to file for. Adultery,abandonment  and violence were the main reasons. John would have been able to claim abandonment I’m sure - if nothing else.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 18:45 GMT (UK)
I half noticed this yesterday but I have just double checked. If I have my records correct. Edith landed in New York in January 1889 but her third son was born in April London 1889. Seems like a big trip when heavily pregnant.. or maybe she wasn’t and John had an affair in her absence.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 19:12 GMT (UK)
I half noticed this yesterday but I have just double checked. If I have my records correct. Edith landed in New York in January 1889 but her third son was born in April London 1889. Seems like a big trip when heavily pregnant.. or maybe she wasn’t and John had an affair in her absence.

Do you have the birth certificates for each of their children, particularly the 1889 birth?  What are the exact details about baby's mum noted on it.  Where born, who was the informant, what occupations, ...
 :)  Does it validate your own family's  knowledge about Edith.

What details do you have for each Edith's voyages ... outward and returning to the UK ....
 :) was she travelling in a cabin or in a lower class berth.
 :) Does the ticket number for her voyage indicate she travelled alone or were there others on same ticket...  was she travelling as Smith or Mahon ....

 :) Did she have a professional name?



JM

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 09 January 22 19:24 GMT (UK)
Richard Lionel’s baptism in 1891 has a margin note saying he was born 9th April 1889

Birth is registered Fulham, June qrtr.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 09 January 22 20:57 GMT (UK)
:) Did she have a professional name?

JM
Her professional name was EDITH MAHON (Mrs)

Richard Lionel’s baptism in 1891 has a margin note saying he was born 9th April 1889

Birth is registered Fulham, June qrtr.

It would be interesting to see WHO registered that birth.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 21:12 GMT (UK)
If Mrs Edith MAHON was the only professional name she used, then she must have had a private source of income aside from her professional performances for there's scant info in any of the newspapers any of my reliable ancient living rellies have found.  They have searched diligently and are (as always) impressed with Maddy's newspaper searchings.  :) 

Yes, the info recorded on the 1889 birth registration would be very interesting.

JM

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 09 January 22 21:30 GMT (UK)
Yes I will investigate Richards 1889
Birth/ order a birth certificate. I have discovered lies on birth certificates with other relatives as I know wasn’t exactly uncommon but hopefully this sheds some light here. There was certainly a lot going on for Edith and her family around that time.
She is on a Philadelphia census in 1900- arrival 1898.


I too wondered about her income. She seemed to travel frequently and didn’t appear to do many events based on the lack of information on her. Thanks for your research Maddy on that.

I am a bit of a novice researcher so all your help and suggestions has been invaluable.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 09 January 22 21:48 GMT (UK)
If Mrs Edith MAHON was the only professional name she used, then she must have had a private source of income aside from her professional performances for there's scant info in any of the newspapers any of my reliable ancient living rellies have found.  They have searched diligently and are (as always) impressed with Maddy's newspaper searchings.  :) 
From what I can discover through my musical sources, Edith Mahon was also a successful teacher. Most performers, even today, need to teach in order to earn enough income to survive. As an accompanist, she would have been considered secondary /less important than the singer she worked with (far from the truth), and therefore would not have received the same attention in the press. She was also working at a time when female musicians rarely received the same recogntion as did their male counterparts.

Added: Today she seems to be better known for her portrait by Eakins, than her contribution to the musical world.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 22:22 GMT (UK)
.....

Added: Today she seems to be better known for her portrait by Eakins, than her contribution to the musical world.

You must have been attuned to the mutterings from my reliable rellies.   :)   ... either she was known under a different professional name or she was of 'independent means' ...    umm...  they cannot find adverts for Edith offering classes.   

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 22:23 GMT (UK)
What is the family history significance for the lads middle name of Gordon?

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 09 January 22 22:43 GMT (UK)

Again I am speaking on a practical note here as I try to visualise the logistics of the man John Edmund SMITH as he arrives in a new country with 2  children.

He was quite obviously competent and well-paid in his jobs in senior bank management in England.

With a name change, he would not be able to make any reference to this background in applying for a new position in his new country, let alone furnish written references from previous employers.
Such references were essential in those times as letters of introduction and the planning would often begin long before departure to the new land.  How did he handle that.

He would find it hard to start from scratch on the managerial ladder I think.

It suggests to me that something had been "set up" by someone in advance either in Aust or by some clever  (devious) work in England.

Sue

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 09 January 22 23:05 GMT (UK)
Sue, that is all very logical, and I had thought along the same lines.
But then I thought that he may have been independently wealthy, and he didn't need to work.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 09 January 22 23:17 GMT (UK)
Assume it is the correct family on the Ionic in 1897,  and working with Sue's thoughts .... and presume that the lads and their Dad did get to George Arthur SMITH in Sydney NSW ...  and that they had sufficient assets to live off the interest accrued from those means .... 

Until at least the mid 1920s  there would be NO real reason for enrolling to vote (compulsory voting in NSW commenced 1920s, although at a federal level it was meant to be compulsory to have voted in the conscription referendums in WWI)  ....

The lads would NOT have needed any proof of their name to marry, and their dad would not have needed proof of his marital status if say he offered that he was a divorcee or a widower.  A Clergyman would accept the word of the Groom particularly if he said he was divorced and it would be presumed he had been the petitioner - this would be how a C of E clergyman would have considered it after say the NSW 1899 marriage act came into operation.

So they could be íncognito in NSW in the years before WWI and thus become known by any particular name.  BUT .... 

Has anyone checked to see if they were back in England in 1901, 1911, 1921, 1939 etc etc etc.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: cupoflife on Monday 10 January 22 01:36 GMT (UK)
This file may be worth checking... could contain death certificate and other valuable information.
SMITH George Arthur
Intestate Estates Index 1821-1913
File No: 89 | Previous System No: [10/27838] | District/Locality: Petersham | Date of Order: 1910
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX75451
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX88690

If you are unable to visit the NSW archives, you could put a request for Rootschatter Rosball to kindly copy this file next time she is at the archives. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 10 January 22 01:38 GMT (UK)

Edith Kate SMITH, living in Chicago, has knowledge in 1898 that her husband and two sons left England in 1897.  Someone has given her this information?

Edith can name the ship, and offer alternative names used by her husband and two children.

Short of seeing the passenger list of the "Ionic" before it left England, or being on the ship with them, you might think it is someone in Australia who has informed her.

Who would that be?



 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 01:52 GMT (UK)
1906
Fulham, London, register of voters
No. 4, Munster District  1906

John Edmund SMITH, 133 Wardo Ave,  bedroom first floor partly furnished, 5s per week to William Glindoni, same address.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89FL-3SQS 

and still at that address 1909 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJFP-TLQY

and at that address back in 1904 too

 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9F2-19JN-2


JM
 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 10 January 22 02:02 GMT (UK)
John Edmund SMITH, 133 Wardo Ave,  bedroom first floor partly furnished, 5s per week to William Glindoni, same address.
in 1911, William GLIDONI lives at that address. He is a stage carpenter. and it appears he married an Evangeline SMITH in 1893.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 02:03 GMT (UK)
This file may be worth checking... could contain death certificate and other valuable information.
SMITH George Arthur
Intestate Estates Index 1821-1913
File No: 89 | Previous System No: [10/27838] | District/Locality: Petersham | Date of Order: 1910
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX75451
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX88690

If you are unable to visit the NSW archives, you could put a request for Rootschatter Rosball to kindly copy this file next time she is at the archives. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0

Thanks I’ll take a look. I’m in NZ
now and I don’t think they’ll be any travel out of here for the foreseeable future!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 02:07 GMT (UK)
1906
Fulham, London, register of voters
No. 4, Munster District  1906

John Edmund SMITH, 133 Wardo Ave,  bedroom first floor partly furnished, 5s per week to William Glindoni, same address.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89FL-3SQS 

and still at that address 1909 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJFP-TLQY

and at that address back in 1904 too

 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9F2-19JN-2


JM
 

Thanks JM. I am tying to follow up and research your ideas too, you guys are just a lot faster :)

 I did wonder if the ship was a red herring and he never actually boarded or just came back a year or so later when things settled down. Whatever “things” were.

I can’t see any link with the boys middle names. Normally it’s a maternal surname somewhere isn’t it but nothing.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 02:10 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately there are at least 16 John Edmund SMITHs born between 1850 and 1885 on FreeBMD. A shame electoral rolls in the UK do not include occupations.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 02:20 GMT (UK)
John Edmund SMITH, 133 Wardo Ave,  bedroom first floor partly furnished, 5s per week to William Glindoni, same address.
in 1911, William GLIDONI lives at that address. He is a stage carpenter. and it appears he married an Evangeline SMITH in 1893.

very interesting ... stage - could be opera or ballet or live theatre.... and his wife's nee name ... hummmm....



JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 03:21 GMT (UK)
Checking to see whether John Edmund might have had another source of income ...

His father died 31 Jan 1891, with a personal estate of £2373 12s.2d. A reasonable sum of money, though possibly divided between remaining children?

Modified to add:
John Edmund's mother also died in 1891 (John snr's second wife). Her estate not nearly as much, so presumably someone else has the money.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 03:40 GMT (UK)
Checking to see whether John Edmund might have had another source of income ...

His father died 31 Jan 1891, with a personal estate of £2373 12s.2d. A reasonable sum of money, though possibly divided between remaining children?

Modified to add:
John Edmund's mother also died in 1891 (John snr's second wife). Her estate not nearly as much, so presumably someone else has the money.

They both died 2 years after he boarded the ship. The money would have come in useful but not the initial income. How would he have received it if he was in Australia? Assume it was reasonably straight forward.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 03:42 GMT (UK)
I have found 2 men with names matching the boys given names. Owen and Richard.
Not sure if they are the same ones obviously but they could be. 🤷‍♀️
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 03:45 GMT (UK)


They both died 2 years after he boarded the ship. The money would have come in useful but not the initial income. How would he have received it if he was in Australia? Assume it was reasonably straight forward.

He sailed in 1897, 6 years after his parents died.  ;)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 03:52 GMT (UK)
Oops. Yes of course !! I was multitasking - badly!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 03:55 GMT (UK)
 ;D ;D

Such common names, makes it very difficult.

Interesting spouse in the marriage of Owen G SMITH. Possibly the wife here mentioned in this previous (1920) divorce case:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page16040382
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 04:05 GMT (UK)
Do not order the 1922 marriage cert just yet.  Wait a day or so,  there's checks we can make for you,  electoral rolls,  etc.   Ancestry's list is actually a compilation of the various indexes that the various state based bdms have online.

The NSW BDM reference as per their online index is  10911/1922,  7 September 1922

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 04:05 GMT (UK)
There is an Owen Grayston SMITH died in Hamilton area (near Newcastle) in 1959 (parents John Joseph and Selina). A possibility for the Owen G SMITH who married in 1922.  :-\

He was born 1890 reg at Newcastle (24393/1890)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 04:18 GMT (UK)
Thanks ! More unusual names would be useful!
I have ordered Richard Lionel’s birth certificate. Will take a while to get to me unfortunately.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 04:18 GMT (UK)
Yes, Eliza LINSTRUM and Owen Grayston SMITH divorced in 1936.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139222893
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 04:23 GMT (UK)
Peter Isadore LINSTRUM remarried and that marriage ended in a divorce too.   NSW State Archives free to search : https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 04:28 GMT (UK)
Owen Grayson SMITH is NOT the person we need look for

NSW BDM online death index
#12815 of 1959
His death registered Hamilton, which is in the 'right' district, but his parents recorded as John Joseph and Selina.


JM


Apologies to Maddy,  I am duplicating her post.

There is an Owen Grayston SMITH died in Hamilton area (near Newcastle) in 1959 (parents John Joseph and Selina). A possibility for the Owen G SMITH who married in 1922.  :-\

He was born 1890 reg at Newcastle (24393/1890)

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 10 January 22 04:46 GMT (UK)


Further to reply #80.....death Richard Gordon SMITH 24 Nov 1992 Glen Waverley Melbourne -


Southern Metropolitan Cemeteries Trust
https://smct.org.au/deceased-search   
Richard Gordon SMITH  24 Nov 1992    born 27 Nov 1923 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Monday 10 January 22 05:37 GMT (UK)

This item states there were passenger disembarked Melbourne per Ionic after its arrival from London in Hobart.
It mentions only Saloon passengers, and this was not the category Ed. JOHNSON traveled in, but it does give credence to his wife's dates in her Gazette notice.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190658381?searchTerm=ionic


Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 05:59 GMT (UK)
I may have mis-read,  but I think the Melbourne and Sydney passengers trans-shipped at Hobart and the Ionic went directly to Wellington as the next port.

There would be coastal traders to take up those inter colonial passengers.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 07:02 GMT (UK)
I may have mis-read,  but I think the Melbourne and Sydney passengers trans-shipped at Hobart and the Ionic went directly to Wellington as the next port.

There would be coastal traders to take up those inter colonial passengers.

JM

That’s my understanding too.

In 1909 Edith travelled to Philadelphia from Liverpool in 2nd class as Mrs Edith Mahon. Her occupation was “wife” and she was down as unaccompanied. It also says she’s a US citizen. She definitely appeared to have money to travel and support herself.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 10 January 22 09:46 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure what to make of this - on the passenger list mentioned above for Edith MAHON sailing 18 Aug 1909 she says her address was 72 Buckingham Gate. There are at least two advertisements in The Times for this address (31 July 1909 and 18 Sept 1909) where it seems to be "Madame Gregory's Agency" for placing household servants, lady's maids etc.  :-\  It is also advertised for lease earlier, in 1899, as a furnished flat.

Modified to add:
Just looking at the passenger list more closely, I see that what I thought was Edith's address is actually "name and address of nearest relative or friend ..." so Edith replies "sister Mrs Gregory 72 Buckingham Gate London".  :-[
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 10:20 GMT (UK)
I'm not sure what to make of this - on the passenger list mentioned above for Edith MAHON sailing 18 Aug 1909 she says her address was 72 Buckingham Gate. There are at least two advertisements in The Times for this address (31 July 1909 and 18 Sept 1909) where it seems to be "Madame Gregory's Agency" for placing household servants, lady's maids etc.  :-\  It is also advertised for lease earlier, in 1899, as a furnished flat.

Modified to add:
Just looking at the passenger list more closely, I see that what I thought was Edith's address is actually "name and address of nearest relative or friend ..." so Edith replies "sister Mrs Gregory 72 Buckingham Gate London".  :-[

Interesting… Mrs Gregory is Eleanor Marie nee Mahon, Edith’s older sister. I have her census from 1901 and 1911 and they weren’t at 72 Buckingham Gate. Not to say they weren’t in 1909.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 10 January 22 10:44 GMT (UK)
I have just being "fiddling" on the NSW BDM online indexes, particularly the death one.   

For the surname I used the wild card *
For given name I used Owen
For father I used John
For mother I used Edith

I searched 1 Jan 1897 to 31 December 1991.

I did same for Richard as given name.

Outcome:   no obvious death registration for either of the lads. 

Of course there's every possibility neither  lad knew their mum's given name.

But there's also the distinct possibility they did not settle in NSW.

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 17:14 GMT (UK)
Thanks JM. Edith’s gazette article said she believed they had gone to Melbourne. Maybe that’s where they settled then and not with the younger brother after all.  The two boys most likely enlisted in WW1, given their age. I haven’t found documents on this yet. So many unknowns!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 10 January 22 17:38 GMT (UK)
My Grandads notes on Edith.. Unfortunately he died 30 years ago so I can’t ask him!
He understood that she lived in America rather than travelled back and forth. The professional name might be of use.

“Aunt Edith Smith (known as Madam Mahon) professional pianist, Chestnut Avenue, Philadelphia”. 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 11 January 22 11:33 GMT (UK)
https://digitalcommons.gardner-webb.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1628&context=etude 

I googled Chestnut Ave, Philadelphia, Mahon,  1915

And among the offerings was that magazine.  Volume 34, Number 10 (October 1916)  Its for Piano Teachers....  and so I looked through the 40 page pdf.   There on the magazine page number 698 as  in (page 8 of the pdf)  there's an article :  Points to remember in Sight Reading by ARE YOU SEATED .... Anna Guilbert MAHON.   -  I have taken a snip and its attached.   

So who is she,  is it a co-incidence she is contributing to this magazine for in that decade and that the magazine's corporate address is the same address as our OP's Grandfather noted in his research from perhaps long before the internet...

family search has records for this name
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPC7-ZCVS

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 11 January 22 19:15 GMT (UK)
Great find! Thanks for going through all that info. I recognised the name and found her in my tree. I haven’t done a lot of research on her but I see she lived in Philadelphia from 1900 - 5112 Baltimore Ave. She is Edith’s second cousin and of a similar age. Anna Gilbert’s grandfather is Edith’s uncle.
The Uncle moved from Ireland to NY before Edith was born.
Anna is recorded as a “story writer” in the 1900 census and “writes magazines “ in 1910 census (5229 Walton Ave) Anna married a psychologist in 1905 and had a son but lived with her parents in 1910 so I assume the marriage collapsed as I don’t think the husband died. Maybe that’s how they bonded? I need to research Anna and that family more.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 12 January 22 01:28 GMT (UK)


Do your grandfather’s notes or your own hold much information about George Arthur SMITH, b 1860, the brother of John who emigrated?

I think the 1910 death in NSW which has been previously looked at and then cast into doubt, may possibly be the correct George Arthur SMITH.

2512/1910  SMITH George A
Father  John
At   Newtown

As mentioned he was a widower at marriage to Ida TENDELL in 1893.
As already noted, his daughter Florence Eileen HAVENSTEIN placed a death notice which makes no mention of Ida. I do wonder what became of Ida
26 Jan 1910
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15157589

Florence HAVENSTEIN was a widow at the time of her father’s death, her husband Gustavus suicided in 1908. They was a son- Eric G A HAVENSTEIN 5557/1904 at Newtown, NSW

Items and notices connected with the death of Gustavus
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229105165
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113765604
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14990784

Florence subsequently re-married
4618/1916
FOUNTAIN John G S
HAVENSTEIN Florence E
At SYDNEY

Her death
FOUNTAIN Florence Eileen
30056/1955
Parents George Arthur & Mary Ellen
PETERSHAM

 From Ryerson Index
FOUNTAIN   Florence Eileen   Death notice 18NOV1955   Aged 73 at Petersham, late of Leichhardt   Sydney Morning Herald 19NOV1955

Is there a record for the marriage of George Arthur to one Mary  Ellen?

If I have spotted the right person in UK census 1881, George Arthur SMITH. A patient in Guy’s Hospital aged 22 and a travelling bookseller, Married.

This suggests, Florence was born in England in 1882 if the age at death is right

He was a travelling salesman on the MC.

If he is the brother of John, your person of interest,the death notice does not mention his brother, so perhaps there was no contact between them.
Sue



Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 01:58 GMT (UK)



two daughters for George Arthur SMITH  :)


...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15150052
smh 27 Jan 1910
SMITH  January 23, 1910 at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, George Arthur, dearly beloved father of Margaret Moran, of 52 Whistler Street, Manly, aged 50 years, late of Surrey, New Malden, England. 
...

 :D

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 12 January 22 02:28 GMT (UK)
So that is the correct George ;D ;)

Still no mention of a brother John.
ADDING
Possibly death of Margaret, but mother not known to the informant perhaps.

MORAN Margaret
8925/1952
Father George
At MANLY
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 12 January 22 02:35 GMT (UK)


NSW BDM death
8925/1952  MORAN Margaret parents  George   @  Manly

Northern Suburbs Cemetery
https://hwt.concordengage.com/northernbeaches/search

MORAN Margaret   died  29 Apr 1952    69y   site  GEN-U-241
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 12 January 22 07:03 GMT (UK)



two daughters for George Arthur SMITH  :)

Interesting that they both put seperate death notices in with no reference to the other sister

...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15150052
smh 27 Jan 1910
SMITH  January 23, 1910 at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, George Arthur, dearly beloved father of Margaret Moran, of 52 Whistler Street, Manly, aged 50 years, late of Surrey, New Malden, England. 
...

 :D

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 07:11 GMT (UK)



two daughters for George Arthur SMITH  :)

Interesting that they both put seperate death notices in with no reference to the other sister

...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15150052
smh 27 Jan 1910
SMITH  January 23, 1910 at Royal Prince Alfred Hospital, George Arthur, dearly beloved father of Margaret Moran, of 52 Whistler Street, Manly, aged 50 years, late of Surrey, New Malden, England. 
...

 :D

JM

Yes, and that it is possible that Margaret did not know until AFTER the funeral.   Look at the dates.    Also,  Margaret MORAN may have been her birth name, which doesn't match her Dad's surname.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 12 January 22 07:14 GMT (UK)


Do your grandfather’s notes or your own hold much information about George Arthur SMITH, b 1860, the brother of John who emigrated?

I think the 1910 death in NSW which has been previously looked at and then cast into doubt, may possibly be the correct George Arthur SMITH.

2512/1910  SMITH George A
Father  John
At   Newtown

As mentioned he was a widower at marriage to Ida TENDELL in 1893.
As already noted, his daughter Florence Eileen HAVENSTEIN placed a death notice which makes no mention of Ida. I do wonder what became of Ida
26 Jan 1910
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15157589

Florence HAVENSTEIN was a widow at the time of her father’s death, her husband Gustavus suicided in 1908. They was a son- Eric G A HAVENSTEIN 5557/1904 at Newtown, NSW

Items and notices connected with the death of Gustavus
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/229105165
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113765604
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14990784

Florence subsequently re-married
4618/1916
FOUNTAIN John G S
HAVENSTEIN Florence E
At SYDNEY

Her death
FOUNTAIN Florence Eileen
30056/1955
Parents George Arthur & Mary Ellen
PETERSHAM

 From Ryerson Index
FOUNTAIN   Florence Eileen   Death notice 18NOV1955   Aged 73 at Petersham, late of Leichhardt   Sydney Morning Herald 19NOV1955

Is there a record for the marriage of George Arthur to one Mary  Ellen?

If I have spotted the right person in UK census 1881, George Arthur SMITH. A patient in Guy’s Hospital aged 22 and a travelling bookseller, Married.

This suggests, Florence was born in England in 1882 if the age at death is right

He was a travelling salesman on the MC.

If he is the brother of John, your person of interest,the death notice does not mention his brother, so perhaps there was no contact between them.
Sue

I don’t have much on him - only what I’ve researched on ancestry recently - once I realised he’d emigrated to Oz.

He was living with his family in New Malden (pretty small place) in 1861 and 1871 census. I also found his records in the 1881 census in hospital. I do think it’s the same person.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 07:18 GMT (UK)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15157589  (several posts have mentioned this notice here's my transcription of the notice - Waverley cemetery burial cited earlier too, buried 24 Jan 1910, W-19-CD-OR-5526 )

SMITH
January 23 1910 George Arthur dearly  loved father of Florence E. Havenstein of Warriston, 47 Margaret St, Petersham aged 50 years.
Sleep on dear father and take your rest. They míss you most who loved you best.


JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 12 January 22 08:34 GMT (UK)
Margaret MORAN's address on the 1952 burial register is 83 Addison Rd, Manly. In 1849 at this address on the electoral roll is Frances Margaret MORAN and Jonathan Cooper MORAN, grocer.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 08:42 GMT (UK)
This would be his death registration
# 19318/1958, father as John,  mother's name not displayed, registered Manly. NSW 

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 12 January 22 08:54 GMT (UK)
Jonathan Cooper and Frances Margaret MORAN had at least 2 children: John William (1903) and Arthur Ronald (1911) who ran a general business as "Moran Brothers" in Balgowlah (next to Manly). Article here about   bankruptcy hearing mentioning father Jonathan.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article17030832

Modified to correct Arthur's middle name.  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 12 January 22 09:14 GMT (UK)
Baptism for Frances Margaret SMITH, daughter of George Arthur (traveller) and Ellen Maria 21 Nov 1880 (born 9 Oct) at St Mary's Battersea, Surrey.

Modified:
The address looks like 4 Hayledean Villas, Binnerly Rd.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 12 January 22 09:24 GMT (UK)
Birth registration for Frances Margaret SMITH at Wandsworth Dec qtr 1880 (1d/650) has mother's maiden name MERRYWEATHER.

Modified:
Other possible births to SMITH and MERRYWEATHER:


1882 Florence Eliza at Kingston on Thames (2a/314)
1886 Mabel Lilian at Kingston on Thames (2a/325)
1887 Henry Wilfred at Kingston on Thames (2a/359)
1888 Edith at Kingston on Thames (2a/360)
1891 Harry Edwin at Kinston on Thames (2a/326)


Modified again:
These last 4 births are not children of George and Ellen, instead they are from parents Henry William and Ada Selina SMITH. I think they are all from a different family - Henry is a plumber in the 1891 with wife Ada and children Mabel (5) and Harry (4 months).
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 09:30 GMT (UK)
MARRIAGE  freebmd uk
George Arthur SMITH and Ellen Maria MERRYWEATHER,  Dec 1879 quarter,  Strand, 1b/1000

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 09:37 GMT (UK)
NSW digitised incoming passenger lists :  freely available here,  and likely also on the subscription websites too.

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/node/1341/browse

then to :

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/assisted-immigrants-digital-shipping-lists 


JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 12 January 22 09:38 GMT (UK)
I'm losing track of what has already been posted.

Baptism for Florence Eliza SMITH at New Malden 5 Nov 1882 (born 20 Sept), parents George Arthur (commercial traveller) and Ellen Maria. Address - Chestnut Grove
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 10:01 GMT (UK)
I am too, and so too are my ancient rellies.   PLEASE LET ME KNOW WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE OF HOURS OR AT LEAST WITHIN THE NEXT TWENTY THREE HOURS for any additions and corrections.  I typed this using all eight fingers !  but I typed from memory, so grey cells at 9 p.m. at night can be a tad .... ummmm....  you know.

So we are looking at how to sort out from a notice in 1898 about a English chap and his two children as to what happened to the three of them. 

We have been investigating the chap's brother, and we can find him in Sydney NSW.  We have found two of his daughters also in Sydney NSW.  He died in 1910. 

The mother of the two elusive boys was Edith Kate MORAN and she had married John Edmund SMITH.  Their two surviving sons were (from the advertisement at the beginning of this thread) Owen Edmund Gordon SMITH and Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH. 

In May 1897 the RMS Ionic's passenger list from London, Plymouth, for Cape Town, Hobart and Wellington includes in Steerage travelling on the one ticket, ticketed to Hobart.  They were NOT travelling as SMITH, nor under their official formal names.  They were travelling under the surname JOHNSON/JOHNSTON (depending on various transcriptions).  The ages of the boys matches up, but not their given names nor their surnames. The party of 3 on the Ionic may have made their way to Sydney, to George Arthur SMITH who was brother to John Edmund SMITH. 

Edith Kate MORAN's MAHON's marriage to John Edmund SMITH would seem to be over and the notice of March 1898 has her in the USA.  She is noted as Divorced on one of the later USA Census.  EDITED FOR MISTOOKEN WITH HER SURNAME !

We continue to strive towards finding John Edmund SMITH and his two sons anywhere, but alas, he is well hidden, which is why this thread is quite long, quite active, and has been finding aspects about other family members in the as yet vain hope that one or more of the three elusive SMITH family will be found.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 12 January 22 10:01 GMT (UK)
George Arthur and Ellen Maria divorced in 1889 in London.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 12 January 22 10:10 GMT (UK)
I am too, and so too are my ancient rellies.   

So we are looking at how to sort out from a notice in 1898 about a English chap and his two children as to what happened to the three of them. 

We have been investigating the chap's brother, and we can find him in Sydney NSW.  We have found two of his daughters also in Sydney NSW.  He died in 1910. 

The mother of the two elusive boys was Edith Kate MORAN and she had married John Edmund SMITH.  Their two surviving sons were (from the advertisement at the beginning of this thread) Owen Edmund Gordon SMITH and Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH. 

In May 1897 the RMS Ionic's passenger list from London, Plymouth, for Cape Town, Hobart and Wellington includes in Steerage travelling on the one ticket, ticketed to Hobart.  They were NOT travelling as SMITH, nor under their official formal names.  They were travelling under the surname JOHNSON/JOHNSTON (depending on various transcriptions).  The ages of the boys matches up, but not their given names nor their surnames. The party of 3 on the Ionic may have made their way to Sydney, to George Arthur SMITH who was brother to John Edmund SMITH. 

Edith Kate MORAN's marriage to John Edmund SMITH would seem to be over and the notice of March 1898 has her in the USA.  She is noted as Divorced on one of the later USA Census.

We continue to strive towards finding John Edmund SMITH and his two sons anywhere, but alas, he is well hidden, which is why this thread is quite long, quite active, and has been finding aspects about other family members in the as yet vain hope that one or more of the three elusive SMITH family will be found.

JM

JM

Yes great summary JM. They do appear well hidden and I don’t think it’s going to be easy to find them. The information you have both/all uncovered has been a massive help and I wouldn’t have found it without advice from here. I’ll keep digging but he obviously went to great lengths to vanish. Even in todays digital era, where I am researching their lives on my phone, I still can’t see what happened to them all !

Just to add : it was Mahon rather than Moran for the wife of the missing ex- husband and 2 boys. Otherwise, exactly  right :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 12 January 22 10:12 GMT (UK)
Agreed, well summarised JM, except Edith Kate's maiden name was MAHON, not MORAN.  ;)

Modified:
Sorry, missed the last point in your post Arnside98.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 10:15 GMT (UK)
I will go back and edit.

JM

ADD,  Maddy and Arnside noticed it before my ancient rellies got to the phone to tell me.  I say no more for this evening.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: cupoflife on Wednesday 12 January 22 11:58 GMT (UK)
Have we covered this?
https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/richard-lionel-gordon-smith-24-w0xsf5
Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH (1889 - 1958)
Born in Fulham, London, England on April 1889 to John Edmund Smith and Edith Kate Mahon. Richard Lionel Gordon Smith passed away on Dec 1958 (Dec qtr?) in Lewisham, London, England.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 12 January 22 18:54 GMT (UK)
Have we covered this?
https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/richard-lionel-gordon-smith-24-w0xsf5
Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH (1889 - 1958)
Born in Fulham, London, England on April 1889 to John Edmund Smith and Edith Kate Mahon. Richard Lionel Gordon Smith passed away on Dec 1958 (Dec qtr?) in Lewisham, London, England.


That's not been covered previously,  well found, Cup.

So he  should/could  be findable in UK : 1901, 1911, 1921 census & 1939 register.....  electoral rolls, phone books , inward passenger  arrivals :) etc...

I am without Ancestry access at the mo.   ::) 

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 12 January 22 19:01 GMT (UK)
Have we covered this?
https://www.ancestry.com.au/genealogy/records/richard-lionel-gordon-smith-24-w0xsf5
Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH (1889 - 1958)
Born in Fulham, London, England on April 1889 to John Edmund Smith and Edith Kate Mahon. Richard Lionel Gordon Smith passed away on Dec 1958 (Dec qtr?) in Lewisham, London, England.


Great !!! No we haven’t. I’ll take a look. Great find.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 13 January 22 00:26 GMT (UK)
I can't find a death notice for this Richard. Presume this is his burial at Camberwell New Cemetery and Crematorium, death on 3 Nov 1958.

The family tree that this death is attached to seems a little strange - it has Edith Kate MAHON married to John Edmund SMITH with the 3 children: Owen (1885), Bertran (1887) and Richard (1889). It also says she was the mother of George JOHNSON (1884) and Lewis JOHNSON (1889, who is shown as having the same birth date as Richard Lionel Gordon) with father named Ed JOHNSON. The Lewis JOHNSON is said to have died in Orange, NSW in 1951 - the NSW registration for this death (21742/1951) has parents Edward and Alice.

I would take this tree with a grain of salt, though perhaps they have some information that we don't. If you are on Ancestry, it may be worthwhile trying to contact the owner of the tree.

Modified to add:
I did look on the 1939 register a while back for a birth date of 19 April 1889 (Richard Lionel Gordon's birth according to his baptism), however no SMITH's or JOHNSON's or anything that really jumped out. There were a lot to sift through though.  :-\

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 13 January 22 00:35 GMT (UK)
Also
The 1891 EDIT 1901 census listing, which is cited as one of the 4 images attached to this identity, is not the right family in my opinion.
The head John E Smith is a marble polisher ::)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Thursday 13 January 22 00:52 GMT (UK)
Marble polisher !  .... Ha Ha Ha .... my ancient rellies confirm that they have not found Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH anywhere after English 1891 census at familysearch 

ADD,  I do have a Great Grandfather John E SMITH, in NSW in the right era, but I can account for all ten of his NSW born children and his NZ children too, and he was not a marble polisher, nor a bankers clerk. 

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 13 January 22 02:15 GMT (UK)
 ;D ;D
The closest I come is my grandfather William SMITH, also in NSW at the same time, but surprisingly no John SMITH's in the family at all.

Sorry for getting a bit off topic Arnside, your SMITH's do seem to be well and truly hidden. But don't despair, happy to keep looking!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 13 January 22 03:26 GMT (UK)
Just to thoroughly eliminate Lewis JOHNSON who died at ORANGE.


In the estate of Lewis JOHNSON   Shipwright etc
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/220010768

The executors were Arthur WARMAN and Thomas YOUNGER
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/18247199/1050133

Both these men were brothers in law to the deceased having married his sisters Lily and Annie whose parents were Edward JOHNSON and Alice TURNER
Lewis JOHNSON was aged 70 at death according to his interment details
Birth
Johnson, Lewis . 1880/8290. Parents Edward JOHNSON Alice  At St Leonards NSW.

Scratch him off your list ::)

Sue
 

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 13 January 22 09:57 GMT (UK)
Marble polisher !  .... Ha Ha Ha .... my ancient rellies confirm that they have not found Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH anywhere after English 1891 census at familysearch 

ADD,  I do have a Great Grandfather John E SMITH, in NSW in the right era, but I can account for all ten of his NSW born children and his NZ children too, and he was not a marble polisher, nor a bankers clerk. 

JM

:)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 13 January 22 10:02 GMT (UK)
;D ;D
The closest I come is my grandfather William SMITH, also in NSW at the same time, but surprisingly no John SMITH's in the family at all.

Sorry for getting a bit off topic Arnside, your SMITH's do seem to be well and truly hidden. But don't despair, happy to keep looking!

Thanks :) Maybe I need to try the DNA testing and hope one of their descendants has too!
I’m surprised there’s no paper trail. They wouldn’t have realised what we can uncover these days.

The family tree on ancestry is probably mine. I added the real names and the changed names to the tree to see if the algorithm showed up any hints. I also added any leads on deaths to help with the search. I haven’t updated it since I posted on this forum. Sorry for any confusion.

 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 13 January 22 10:30 GMT (UK)
I’ve just spotted a Mrs Johnson on the ionic ships manifest. It doesn’t show on the handwritten version on ancestry (unless I’ve missed it) but it does show up on the typed version here. Almost last entry.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~shipstonz/genealogy/PassLists/ionicmay1897.html
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Thursday 13 January 22 10:52 GMT (UK)
Right, so from that transcribed list:

So she was travelling to Wellington, and in the Saloon class. 

So I wonder
 :) at which port did she board ? 
 :) what were her initials
 :) was  she also using an incognito name

 :)  JM

I’ve just spotted a Mrs Johnson on the ionic ships manifest. It doesn’t show on the handwritten version on ancestry (unless I’ve missed it) but it does show up on the typed version here. Almost last entry.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~shipstonz/genealogy/PassLists/ionicmay1897.html



Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 13 January 22 18:13 GMT (UK)
Right, so from that transcribed list:

So she was travelling to Wellington, and in the Saloon class. 

So I wonder
 :) at which port did she board ? 
 :) what were her initials
 :) was  she also using an incognito name

 :)  JM

I’ve just spotted a Mrs Johnson on the ionic ships manifest. It doesn’t show on the handwritten version on ancestry (unless I’ve missed it) but it does show up on the typed version here. Almost last entry.

http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~shipstonz/genealogy/PassLists/ionicmay1897.html

Yes indeed. The transcribed manifest says she boarded in London. I’ll take a look at that newspaper article that mentioned the saloon arrivals in Hobart. We would have noticed a Mrs Johnson though. There’s really not much to go on is there?!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Thursday 13 January 22 21:23 GMT (UK)
Here's the actual images of the Ionic's manifest for that voyage.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DRF3-HMZ  pages 20 to 32.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: cupoflife on Thursday 13 January 22 23:29 GMT (UK)
Were the sons mentioned in any death notice for Edith Kate? How were they noted on her death certificate? Was there a will?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 14 January 22 06:44 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately I haven’t managed to find a will for either Edith Kate Smith or Mahon. I haven’t tried newspapers for a death notice.
The US death records seem quite detailed, Edith died in London and other than the cause of death, I’m not sure it will provide us with any new information.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Friday 14 January 22 08:41 GMT (UK)
Would the name and address of the informant be on the London death cert?

I am about to give you SMITH to Wellington per the Ionic arriving 31 May 1897.

Re the Ionic to Wellington 31 May 1897
Papers Past gives the arrivals for Wellington and for various other NZ ports and for Suva (Fiji).  I notice two adult males with surname SMITH in Steerage . 

HOW DID THEY GET ON BOARD… what ticket number … which port? 


https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM18970601.2.3

JM
 
 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: cupoflife on Friday 14 January 22 09:20 GMT (UK)
Did we investigate who else lived at 29 Devonshire Street?
http://www.devsys.co.uk/ap/Show_Grave.asp?GraveID=120493&Person=138926
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~abneypark/genealogy/name/names-mah000.html
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Friday 14 January 22 09:34 GMT (UK)
Did we investigate who else lived at 29 Devonshire Street?
http://www.devsys.co.uk/ap/Show_Grave.asp?GraveID=120493&Person=138926
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~abneypark/genealogy/name/names-mah000.html

I don't recall anyone posting that detail before now.

I can confirm though that the GRO index per freebmd uk has indexed the death certificate twice, March quarter 1923 Marylebone, 1a/614.  So once as MAHON, Edith, aged 59 and once as SMITH Edith K, aged 59.  (two different transcribers to free bmd !)

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 14 January 22 09:58 GMT (UK)
The other people list above are possibly her sister Clara Brown and a brother in law Frederick Gregory. Not sure on the address as yet.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 14 January 22 10:07 GMT (UK)
29 Devonshire St was a "first class nursing home"  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 15 January 22 07:41 GMT (UK)
Interesting cuttings...

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39650660 Launceston Examiner 28 May 1897
May 27-Ionic, ..... Passengers - Saloon: For Hobart......  For Melbourne : Messrs Charles, Smith, Behrens, 34 third class .... 

 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/207896303 (from an Adelaide based newspaper, the telegram system was obviously in full 'flight') Evening Journal 28 May 1897 ... Ionic .arrived at Hobart on Thursday morning.  Her passengers are expected to reach Melbourne per S S Mararoa.
 
of course NOT to be confused by the following cutting
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/172884115 Tasmanian News 27 May 1897 ...  Yes, I could almost choose to copy paste from the first cutting in this post but then I would miss an important word... MELBOURNE...
.... . For Sydney : Mesdamesdames Steel, Richardson; Messrs Whitehouse, Arps, ..... (a few names) ... For Melbourne : Messrs Charles, Smith, Behrens, 34 third class.

So Mr SMITH was headed to either Sydney or Melbourne or Wellington and if to Wellington there were possibly TWO males who were adults surnamed SMITH and travelling steerage.

JM



 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 15 January 22 07:51 GMT (UK)

This item states there were passenger disembarked Melbourne per Ionic after its arrival from London in Hobart.
It mentions only Saloon passengers, and this was not the category Ed. JOHNSON traveled in, but it does give credence to his wife's dates in her Gazette notice.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190658381?searchTerm=ionic


Sue

Interesting cuttings...

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39650660 Launceston Examiner 28 May 1897
May 27-Ionic, ..... Passengers - Saloon: For Hobart......  For Melbourne : Messrs Charles, Smith, Behrens, 34 third class .... 


 

I mentioned this above, but the thoughts were it was not related to our search.

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 15 January 22 08:13 GMT (UK)
Sorry Sue,  I most likely contributed to that.  I think I was attempting to debunk any thoughts   that the Ionic sailed from Hobart to Melbourne.   

ADD  Yes, It's my fault.  I should have clicked on the link you posted.  I probably would have taken up umpteen more posts discussing if that was Charles SMITH or CHARLES, SMITH, BERHENS ...  ::)  ::)  ::)  - the ancient rellies will be on the phone to me shortly.   :-[  :-[  :-[


This item states there were passenger disembarked Melbourne per Ionic after its arrival from London in Hobart.
It mentions only Saloon passengers, and this was not the category Ed. JOHNSON traveled in, but it does give credence to his wife's dates in her Gazette notice.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190658381?searchTerm=ionic


Sue


and

I may have mis-read,  but I think the Melbourne and Sydney passengers trans-shipped at Hobart and the Ionic went directly to Wellington as the next port.

There would be coastal traders to take up those inter colonial passengers.

JM

JM

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 15 January 22 09:17 GMT (UK)
Hi
No need for apologies.. Just general happy overload all round perhaps.   ;D

I do not see Mr  BEHERENS, Mr CHARLES or Mr SMITH on the original ship listing.
Does anyone?
Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 15 January 22 20:49 GMT (UK)
I discovered a distant relative in America and she just sent me this cutting. Thought you’d all like to see it. Thanks so much for your help.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 15 January 22 21:33 GMT (UK)
Edith died 1923.  Article says her husband and son disappeared 7 years ago.  1923  minus 1897 equals .... err...  a quarter of a century thus suggesting the Ionic Johnson passengers were not her husband and their two sons.

All who joined the AIF were volunteers.  Many were born in Britain.  Very little ID was needed to enlist.  All the AIF service papers have been digitised and are readily available online at the National Archives of Australia, no charge.   

There are many lists of those who served in the 1915 campaign. Most are online.  The puzzle is simply ... what name to look for .... SMITH, JOHNSON, JOHNSTON, MAHON or a name Richard had chosen to enrol under.

JM.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 15 January 22 23:11 GMT (UK)
Edith died 1923.  Article says her husband and son disappeared 7 years ago.  1923  minus 1897 equals .... err...  a quarter of a century thus suggesting the Ionic Johnson passengers were not her husband and their two sons.

All who joined the AIF were volunteers.  Many were born in Britain.  Very little ID was needed to enlist.  All the AIF service papers have been digitised and are readily available online at the National Archives of Australia, no charge.   

There are many lists of those who served in the 1915 campaign. Most are online.  The puzzle is simply ... what name to look for .... SMITH, JOHNSON, JOHNSTON, MAHON or a name Richard had chosen to enrol under.

JM.

Though if the reporter got it wrong (which happens occasionally :P) and it was meant to read 17 years ago then it would be closer to the time when Edith placed her advertisement.

The  words "persevering search" are interesting because to our knowledge she placed one newspaper advertisement.

Perhaps there was some "behind the scenes" activity

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 15 January 22 23:27 GMT (UK)
Or 27 years ago.  :)

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 15 January 22 23:44 GMT (UK)
A brief online search at naa.gov.au ... I Used keywords:  Richard, Fulham, England and 1913-1919 for date range. Outcome:  no records.  I then revised search, removing Richard.   Yes, there were AIF personnel who enlisted in Australia who gave their POB as Fulham, England.  NoK  names are included in index too.  I have not looked further.

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 16 January 22 00:48 GMT (UK)
Whoopsie, yes 27! ::)
I am wondering now how the information about the lad's death was ever passed onto her.
She was informed very close to the time of his death (The campaign being Feb 15th 1915 to Jan 1916)


I imagine she would not be NOK.
The boy's father is hiding from her if he is still living.
"Authorities" would have no knowledge of her unless there was something linking her in his WW1 record.
The brother-in-law is deceased.


Any ideas?

Sue
 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 16 January 22 01:06 GMT (UK)
I wonder if it says "7" because 1923 - 1916 (when Edith heard of the death, the reporter getting mixed up)?

I also wonder how she heard - someone must have known something of where her son was, and was still in touch with Edith.

Very sad, and still intriguing.

Also, a lot of records to search through looking for the one that might be Richard!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 16 January 22 01:14 GMT (UK)
Someone that she knew and relied on and who was a long time resident in Australia may have known Richard Lionel Gordon SMITH was the son of Mrs Edith Mahon and he lost contact with him during WWI.  Then in early 1920s when monuments were being erected and names being collected for permanent engraving on those monuments, the funding for those monuments was by subscriptions from individuals.  The purpose was two-fold: to provide a place of mourning for the local population in the absence of a burial (and headstone) in a local cemetery, and further, to provide work (for gain or as voluntary efforts) for those who had returned to Australia.  So local communities had lists of those who had enlisted from their own communities and/or were born in those communities ... etc and they also had the casualty lists that we can now readily access via Trove's digital newspapers. 

My rellies assure me that the word needed is 'intermediary'.   ::)  ::)   I am one finger typing, so it is a tad difficult to backspace all those words, so I leave it as typed.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 16 January 22 01:15 GMT (UK)
It’s a great find but yes more questions. I agree - someone would have known about the death and told Edith (her estranged husband?!). Richard would have died in 1915 as the Anzacs left in December. I think the 7 years is an error by the journalist but anything’s possible. Lots of names to check on the roll of honour ! Edith’s cousin emigrated to America, travelled on a different name but used his real name on arrival .. not sure if that’s usual. He fled England due to bankruptcy so didn’t want to be found as law at three time could have sent him to prison.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 16 January 22 01:24 GMT (UK)
Not many civilian shipping opportunities to disappear from England ‘seven years ago’, but USA did not enter the war until April 1917, so perhaps Mrs Edith Mahon’s husband and son disappeared ‘seven years ago’ sailing from the USA to Australia.  If so,  how did Richard get to Australia to enlist in 1914, to be trained and on the water heading to Egypt for further training there for the landing 25 April 1915.   Reinforcements were despatched after April 1915 but by December 1915 there were NO AIF soldiers at Gallipoli.

Yes,  huge exercise to find Mrs Edith Mahon’s son who died at Gallipoli.

I will take a snip of the newspaper article and re-post.  I cannot find it replicated elsewhere.

Her son was KIA and she learnt about this loss in 1916.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 16 January 22 01:31 GMT (UK)
I have spent a long time searching on the CWG site under the names SMITH, JOHNSON and JONSTON, but have drawn a blank. Perhaps a different pair of eyes will have more luck.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/

The newspaper says he fought with British forces. I searched under British, Australian and New Zealand forces, without success. I wonder how accurate that newspaper detail was?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 16 January 22 01:39 GMT (UK)
Was Richard in the AIF or .... ?  .... ummm  or perhaps he had enlisted in Britain? He was born in 1889, Fulham, England. 

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-soldiers-of-the-first-world-war/

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-medal-index-cards-1914-1920/

KIA - Commonwealth War Graves Commission
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/

Agree with Neale.  The ancient rellies have also been on similar searchings, and with same outcome as Neale.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 16 January 22 01:58 GMT (UK)
The CWGC website has additional fields option.  One is for where the commeration monument is.  An option there is ‘Turkey including Gallipoli’.

Three by name of Richard SMITH.

AIF – as per NAA 'First Australian Imperial Force Personnel Dossiers, 1914-1920' B2455 files.

Pte Richard Smith, 9th Bn, Service no. 323.  Lone Pine Memorial 31.  Born Birmingham England. Parents as George and Louisa on the War Pension image at page 41 of 43

Pte Richard Smith, 16th Bn, Service no. 30, Lone Pine Memorial 57. born 1 Feb 1894, Lancs.

South Wales Borderers I have downloaded the TNA medal Card - there is no mention of his family or his age or his place of birth or his marital status, 

Pte Richard Smith, 2nd Bn, Service No. 10755,  Helles Memorial Panel 80 to 84 or 219 and 220.

Lest We Forget.

JM ADDED further info about the three Privates.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 16 January 22 04:50 GMT (UK)

From the obituary #156 -

The author of the obituary knows that -

Edith Kate has a son named Richard.

Richard was at Gallipoli.

Richard served with British forces......no mention of Australia, which you might think the author would remember if heard.

Edith Kate found out, in 1916, that son Richard was dead.

If the author of the obituary is likely American, whose knowledge of Gallipoli, before the US entered the war, would not be the same as for British and Commonwealth people.

I would keep an open mind about Richard, who served at Gallipoli, also died at Gallipoli. Possibly he was wounded, evacuated to a hospital, and died ........in England?....France?.......on hospital ship in transit?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 16 January 22 05:45 GMT (UK)
Thanks JM. If “John” remarried. Richard’s mother might actually be his step mother. I’ve seen other relatives document that.

I agree Wivenhoe, an American is unlikely to have known about Gallipoli so the fact it was mentioned suggests Edith knew actual facts about his death.
I wondered the same, did he actually die in Gallipoli or elsewhere and is he records as Richard or Lewis or High (as Edith stated in her gazette article) ?

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 16 January 22 06:02 GMT (UK)
Main Headlines on Page 1 of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette Press 1 May 1915.   (oops, sorted now ! )

Turks claim victory
Fighting on Gallipoli is most furious

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TBkhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5887%2C8926 

https://news.google.com/newspapers   :)

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Tuesday 18 January 22 06:07 GMT (UK)
Can you remind me please, if it has been established, where was Edith Kate MAHON, in 1916, when she was made aware that her son had been killed?.

Was Edith Kate still touring as a professional musician or was she settled somewhere?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 18 January 22 08:39 GMT (UK)
Can you remind me please, if it has been established, where was Edith Kate MAHON, in 1916, when she was made aware that her son had been killed?.

Was Edith Kate still touring as a professional musician or was she settled somewhere?

I can only assume she was in the States. She was in Philadelphia performing in June 1915 and a music teacher in Manhattan in 1920. I can’t see any travel documents back to London in that time.

Added: in the 1920 census she is “widowed”. Otherwise she’s been recorded as married or divorced in previous records
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 22 January 22 10:26 GMT (UK)
I have found a man born in Fulham on the same day as Richard and died in Gallipoli, called Lionel Gordon Forrest. Richard’s name was Richard Lionel Gordon Smith. Could be a coincidence or could be the same person. His father is a J E Forrest (John Edmund maybe?) living in Johannesburg. Lionel Gordon Forrest was in the NZ forces. The ionic did make its first main stop in South Africa.
Sorry I can’t attach the records as the image is too large.

Just added: John Edmund Smith’s mothers maiden name was Forrest. Makes sense that he adopted that name for him and his sons.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 January 22 11:03 GMT (UK)
That is a really great find.  Well Done.  The digitised files at Archways NZ were readily available. 

MMN as Forrest... 1 + 1 = dots joined up.   :D

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 22 January 22 11:44 GMT (UK)
Also, the J E Forrest documented as his father is a John Edmund Forrest born in New Malden, Surrey living in Cape Town.
Lionel Gordon died on 8/8/15 at Chunuk Blair. Gallipoli.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 11:58 GMT (UK)
Well done!!
Memorial for Trooper Lionel Gordon Forrest
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56477275/lionel-gordon-forrest

A marriage record for his brother, Owen Edmund Gordon Forrest, in Sth Africa
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZH5-S9CV
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 22 January 22 12:14 GMT (UK)
A marriage record for Owen?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZH5-S9CV

Yes, that seems highly likely. Thanks !
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 12:28 GMT (UK)
Owen and Ethelyn Forrest have a son born in Wellington NZ on 28 Jan 1909 - named Edmund Robert Gordon Forrest.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 13:01 GMT (UK)
I think this might be Owen Gordon Forrest and his son born in NZ, living in Philadelphia USA in 1920.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXS8-GP6
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 13:39 GMT (UK)
Re: John Edmund Smith (alias FORREST)

A John Edmund Forrest (Accountant) takes membership in 1914 in the Johannesburg Freemason Lodge

A John Edmund Forrest born 1858 travelling onboard a ship from Mozambique to London in Sept 1928.
Age 70. Occupation accountant and journalist. Last perm residence - South Africa. Proposed address in UK - Plympton, Devon.

A death - 15 July 1944 of John Edmund Forrest age 83, retired accountant, in Cape Town
Indexed in UK probate calendar – Llandudno 15 July 1944
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 22 January 22 19:20 GMT (UK)
There is a draft card for a Robert Owen Forrest giving dob of 28 Jan 1907, Wellington NZ.
Address 1742 E. Lombard St, Balto., Md.

Wife Elizabeth


Amazing work Arnside!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 22 January 22 19:31 GMT (UK)
I think this might be Owen Gordon Forrest and his son born in NZ, living in Philadelphia USA in 1920.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MXS8-GP6

A coincidence he ended up in the same city as his mother or he was looking for her? Thanks for this !

Added: she was in New York at the time of the 1920 census but if he was looking for her, it makes sense that he ended up in Philadelphia. It seems a strange coincidence that he’d go there without knowing a link.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 22 January 22 19:40 GMT (UK)
1940
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89M1-CXJG?i=21&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AK7FZ-64Q

1930
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9RHQ-LCM?i=17&cc=1810731&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AX34K-C6M
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Saturday 22 January 22 19:53 GMT (UK)
I’m a bit confused who Robert Owen Forrest is. I am certain it’s Owen and Ethelyn’s first son as he is born in NZ to South African parents. I can’t find any birth records for him though. We found Edmund Robert Gordon Forrest’s records born in 1909.
Maybe I’ve missed something - it was very late when I found Lionel Gordon Forrest!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 22 January 22 20:13 GMT (UK)
I think Robert Owen Forrest is the same person as  Edmund Robert Gordon Forrest.

Month and day are the same.   It’s a typed card. 9 is easily mistaken for a 7

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 20:29 GMT (UK)
I think Robert Owen Forrest is the same person as  Edmund Robert Gordon Forrest.
Yes, I agree. Same person.
It was very late last night when I finished with these two names, and decided to look again when awake.
A coincidence he ended up in the same city as his mother or he was looking for her?
My thoughts too. He went to find her. Maybe he wanted his son to know his grandmother.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 21:44 GMT (UK)
Regarding Lionel Gordon Forrest
His military attestation was in Auckland on 13 Sept 1914, with previous service in Imperial Light Horse – South Africa.
So clearly, he had been in South Africa when younger and for a while.


In 1911 electoral rolls - Lionel Gordon Forrest was working as a clerk, living in Wellington, NZ,  address -  35 Nairn St.
No sign of his older brother Owen in Wellington in 1911, but there is an “engineer” named Benjamin Collingwood Forrest and 2 women - Maude Forrest and Elizabeth Forrest living at 40 Nairn St Wellington.
Are they relatives on the father’s maternal side? Proximity of abode and same surname seems more then coincidence.?

Maud Forrest born 14 Oct 1887 QLD - parents Benjamin Collingwood Forrest and Elizabeth Jane Booth who had married in 1875 in NSW. (There are a number of children born to this first marriage)
Benjamin Collingwood Forrest (widower) married Elizabeth Eckersley 6 Nov 1895 in QLD.
-   A son named Charles Eckersley Forrest born 27 Sep 1898 QLD
-   A son named Collingwood Robert Forrest born 19 June 1900 NSW
Both sons baptized in Sydney in Sept 1900 at St Stephen Newton  Father: Benjamin C Forrest (occupation publican at Bank Hotel, Newton )
According to electoral rolls Benjamin Collingwood Forrest seems to be in NZ from about 1905 to 1928, and then he returns to Australia.
Benjamin Collingwood Forrest died 3 Apr 1936, Waverley, NSW. Age 83 (born about 1853)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/175409958/benjamin-collingwood-forrest
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 22 January 22 21:51 GMT (UK)


"....draft card for a Robert Owen FORREST giving dob of 28 Jan 1907, Wellington NZ.
Address 1742 E. Lombard St, Balto., Md."

Should be a naturalization record for him?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 January 22 22:02 GMT (UK)
US draft cards .... The draft did not apply ONLY to US citizens but to any male in the age group  in the US at the time .... including for example journalists sent there to report on US News.

I learnt this while helping on another thread.  I will be back shortly with more detail on that.


BACK

Yes, draft could apply to non citizens living in US.  See thread on US board re Who completed WW2 US draft card.  I realise that was for WW2, but likely it would have similar conditions in WWI.

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 22 January 22 22:12 GMT (UK)
Did they have draft even for people in the military? Thinking about that 1940 census.

Or perhaps he had “ retired” between 1940 and the draft?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 January 22 22:19 GMT (UK)
1940 ... US had not entered WWII.  Pearl Harbour...

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 22 January 22 22:57 GMT (UK)
Yes, but he was a soldier in both 1940 & 1930
(Or at least the person in the two links I posted was)

Reply #175
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 22 January 22 23:18 GMT (UK)
Good question, and I don't know the answer  ::)

https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1968530  WWI
https://www.familysearch.org/search/collection/1861144 WWII

https://www.archives.gov/research/military/ww1/draft-registration   Seems the Draft Boards were 'rapidly curtailed'.  - After the signing of the armistice of November 11, 1918, the activities of the Selective Service System were rapidly curtailed. On March 31, 1919, all local, district, and medical advisory boards were closed, and on May 21, 1919, the last state headquarters closed operations. The Provost Marshal General was relieved from duty on July 15, 1919, thereby finally terminating the activities of the Selective Service System of World War I.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 22 January 22 23:47 GMT (UK)
Here is the WW1 draft rego card for Owen Gordon Forrest with the name of his son as nearest relative. Address in Philadelphia.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K6KS-35M


I think this is the marriage of “our” Owen Gordon Forrest in Allentown, Pennsylvania USA to Ruth Elizabeth KNELLY on 24 March 1927. The name and age are correct.
 It records a previous marriage from which he divorced in Nov 1917.
 Age 41 , occupation “sales engineer”; and records his birth in Australia. Names and details of parents are also an invention / fantasy.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VF7B-MLY
Living a life of lies - 1 falsehood leads to another, and so on and on ... until nobody remembers what is true anymore.

ADDED: and they had a child born 18 Mar 1928 Pennsylvania  named Lionel Gordon FORREST !! :)
He married in 1949 Philadelphia to a female MOTT. He died 24 Jan 1998.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 22 January 22 23:59 GMT (UK)
WW2 draft for Owen Gordon, has same date of birth as the WW1 but says he was born in Texas!  ;D ;D..

(He is still married to Ruth, so that’s a plus)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 00:02 GMT (UK)
1930 census Philadelphia  for Owen Gordon FORREST – now using the name Gordon.
 There is another son called Charles! Yikes - where did he come from?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XH42-D7V
 
1940 census Philadelphia  for Owen Gordon FORREST – still using the name Gordon. Date and place of birth have changed!   ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQJJ-786
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 23 January 22 00:02 GMT (UK)
His death cert is on Ancestry. As Gordon Forrest
Here if you have access

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5164/images/42410_2421406274_0894-03981?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.174204386.1389959400.1642616127-231156398.1625019848&pId=5877975

3 June 1948
Says his father is John Forrest born in Scotland and his mother unknown, but born Scotland.
Says he was born in Australia.

Added. And date of birth is the same 11 Dec 1885.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 23 January 22 00:11 GMT (UK)
I like the fact Charles’ (whoever he is)  mother was supposed to have been born in Spain!  It’s really getting fanciful now.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 00:16 GMT (UK)
His death cert is on Ancestry. As Gordon Forrest
3 June 1948
Says his father is John Forrest born in Scotland and his mother unknown, but born Scotland.
Says he was born in Australia.
Informant was his wife - she had no hope knowing what was correct ! ::)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 23 January 22 00:20 GMT (UK)
I am imaging how his accent might have changed over the years. It was obviously never sufficiently Philadelphian to make the ultimate leap. But Texas would do!

I don’t have newspaper access. I wonder if there is an obit.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 00:28 GMT (UK)
I don’t have newspaper access. I wonder if there is an obit.
No, neither do I.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 January 22 00:51 GMT (UK)
many US papers, but not easy to manipulate here:

https://news.google.com/newspapers

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:06 GMT (UK)
Regarding Lionel Gordon Forrest
His military attestation was in Auckland on 13 Sept 1914, with previous service in Imperial Light Horse – South Africa.
So clearly, he had been in South Africa when younger and for a while.


In 1911 electoral rolls - Lionel Gordon Forrest was working as a clerk, living in Wellington, NZ,  address -  35 Nairn St.
No sign of his older brother Owen in Wellington in 1911, but there is an “engineer” named Benjamin Collingwood Forrest and 2 women - Maude Forrest and Elizabeth Forrest living at 40 Nairn St Wellington.
Are they relatives on the father’s maternal side? Proximity of abode and same surname seems more then coincidence.?

Maud Forrest born 14 Oct 1887 QLD - parents Benjamin Collingwood Forrest and Elizabeth Jane Booth who had married in 1875 in NSW. (There are a number of children born to this first marriage)
Benjamin Collingwood Forrest (widower) married Elizabeth Eckersley 6 Nov 1895 in QLD.
-   A son named Charles Eckersley Forrest born 27 Sep 1898 QLD
-   A son named Collingwood Robert Forrest born 19 June 1900 NSW
Both sons baptized in Sydney in Sept 1900 at St Stephen Newton  Father: Benjamin C Forrest (occupation publican at Bank Hotel, Newton )
According to electoral rolls Benjamin Collingwood Forrest seems to be in NZ from about 1905 to 1928, and then he returns to Australia.
Benjamin Collingwood Forrest died 3 Apr 1936, Waverley, NSW. Age 83 (born about 1853)
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/175409958/benjamin-collingwood-forrest

I spotted this too but it was too late to look further last night. Thanks for all that information. It must be a relative, I’ll take a look.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:07 GMT (UK)
USA Social Security Index
Name:   Robert O Forrest
Social Security Number:   214-26-8263
Birth Date:   28 Jan 1907
Issue Year:   Before 1951
Issue State:   Maryland
Death Date:   Jan 1967
Claim Date:   30 Jan 1967

(Date of birth is correct, but year is not.)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:09 GMT (UK)
Amazing find Arnside!

I looked at South African records thinking that he have been there, but without the FORREST name it was a near hopeless task.

Well done all.  :D
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:12 GMT (UK)
You have all done incredible research in the short space of time that I went out! I’m on a different time zone to you all I think. I am going through it all now - so many lies and so many people involved in their lives that probably had no idea what the truth was ! What was John running from all those years ago, can’t just be to hide from his wife!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 23 January 22 01:22 GMT (UK)
You have all done incredible research in the short space of time that I went out! I’m on a different time zone to you all I think (I’m in NZ). I am going through it all now - so many lies and so many people involved in their lives that probably had no idea what the truth was ! What was John running from all those years ago, can’t just be to hide from his wife!

Do we think John was absolutely without involvement in the English court cases, fraud, mentioned by Maddy Reply #22 Page 3 ??

Sue

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:25 GMT (UK)
His death cert is on Ancestry. As Gordon Forrest
Here if you have access

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/5164/images/42410_2421406274_0894-03981?
treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.174204386.1389959400.1642616127-231156398.1625019848&pId=5877975

Thanks. Yes I have ancestry. I think this is him. I saw on documents for his father, John Edmund, where he’s been recorded as Scottish. His mother Margaret Daquid Forrest was Scottish. Easy to pull off the accent.

3 June 1948
Says his father is John Forrest born in Scotland and his mother unknown, but born Scotland.
Says he was born in Australia.

Added. And date of birth is the same 11 Dec 1885.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 January 22 01:27 GMT (UK)
Yes, it could well be he was simply running from his wife.  He took the children, a very brave thing to do in those times.  He gave them his protection from her during their childhood.  He did not put them into orphanages.  There is integrity in those decisions,  the family name is retained.


The research done once that FORREST sighting was found is absolutely grand,  Well Done.


JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:27 GMT (UK)
I really think he was simply a witness in the cases reported that I found earlier. I would think there would have been more reporting, or subsequent reports on the matter if he had been involved.  :-\

I don't have a subscription to newpapers.com, however I note that are some hits for "Owen Gordon FORREST" in Pennsylvania at least, probably others too.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 January 22 01:30 GMT (UK)
Can't help with finding them in Australia, however John Edmund SMITH, bank cashier of the London and County Bank, Hammersmith branch is mentioned as a witness in a cheque fraud case in 1886.
Wednesday,  Dec. 8, 1886, Publication: The Times

Then in 1894 there are a number of items about another fraud case where he is mentioned as manager of the Bayswater branch of the London and County Bank. eg
Saturday,  July 28, 1894, Publication: Sheffield Evening Telegraph

Happy to send you copies if you're interested.

Does seem strange a bank manager travelling under an alias and disappearing. Very intriguing.

Yes,  Agree with Sue.

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 23 January 22 01:46 GMT (UK)
I have emailed these to Arnside, but in case others are wondering, here are the articles mentioning John Edmund SMITH. The 1894 is just part of a much longer article, but shows that he wasn't really involved in the fraud, merely a witness in the trial.

The first is the 1886, and below that the 1894.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 04:20 GMT (UK)
Some relevant NZ newspaper items re Owen Gordon Forrest
Letter to Editor 1908 – a long but interesting read
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19081015.2.62?end_date=31-12-1911&items_per_page=10&query=%22Owen+Forrest%22&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1839

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 04:42 GMT (UK)
A couple of items regarding Trooper Lionel Forrest ..
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 04:44 GMT (UK)
In my opinion, John Edmund Smith’s actions were just vindictive, and speak of a man wanting revenge. Had the divorce been particularly unpleasant? His revenge was to stop his wife having contact with her children. He removed two young boys from their mother, moved them to the other side of the world, changed their names numerous times and did all possible to ensure they could never be traced. It was just as cruel to the boys as it was to Edith Kate.
All the documents I have seen indicate John had a high profile and respectable job in South Africa, which he would not have had access to (through contacts & references) if there was anything “dodgy” about his reputation.
Did John’s vengeance pay off? He died alone in Sth Africa, and seems to have spent his last 35 years alone.
Owen had moved away from his father by 1907, and Lionel a few years later. Why did they choose not to remain in Sth Africa?
I suspect that Owen (and or his offspring) may have eventually made contact with his mother in USA.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 23 January 22 05:02 GMT (UK)

All the documents I have seen indicate John had a high profile and respectable job in South Africa, which he would not have had access to (through contacts & references) if there was anything “dodgy” about his reputation.


While I cannot argue with your thinking here, I think anything dodgy about him would necessarily be concealed by his frequent change of name and other lies.

Therefore he would only be able to present  references that dealt with the more recent times of his life, say from 1897 onwards. Anything earlier would expose his identity.

That is, of course if his references and interview material were truthful.
Possibly self-manufactured!

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Sunday 23 January 22 06:25 GMT (UK)
It's hard to know at this stage what the motivations of both parties were. Certainly the mother left very young babies at home while she pursued her career in the US. Perhaps the age old dilemma of a woman wanting a career  and a family but not being able to enjoy both? I agree though, leaving the country under an assumed name with her children does seem somewhat spiteful, so hard to say at this distance removed.

As we mentioned earlier, someone informed the mother that her son had died at Gallipoli, perhaps the brother? So she wasn't completely estranged from them. Strange that if they came looking for her they kept the name given to them by the father.

Altogether a very curious story.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 23 January 22 07:02 GMT (UK)
1930 census Philadelphia  for Owen Gordon FORREST – now using the name Gordon.
 There is another son called Charles! Yikes - where did he come from?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XH42-D7V
 
1940 census Philadelphia  for Owen Gordon FORREST – still using the name Gordon. Date and place of birth have changed!   ;D
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KQJJ-786

Charles’ birth is a mystery. I doubt his mother was Spanish but there isn’t much on him unless I’m just not having any luck.

Agree with all the comments on John’s decision to leave. Shame we won’t find the answer/reason in the records - unless we get lucky somehow!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 23 January 22 07:16 GMT (UK)
Re: John Edmund Smith (alias FORREST)

 

A John Edmund Forrest born 1858 travelling onboard a ship from Mozambique to London in Sept 1928.
Age 70. Occupation accountant and journalist. Last perm residence - South Africa. Proposed address in UK - Plympton, Devon.

 

A further note to this voyage.
He gave his future address as Carthew, Plympton Devon.

This link to 1911 Devon census show "Carthew", Plympton Devon as a private house.
I wonder why he went to Devon and who lived there in 1928.

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/PlymptonStMary/PlymptonStMary1911.6

Sue

 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Jennaya on Sunday 23 January 22 07:23 GMT (UK)
Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 23 January 22 07:27 GMT (UK)
Some relevant NZ newspaper items re Owen Gordon Forrest
Letter to Editor 1908 – a long but interesting read
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19081015.2.62?end_date=31-12-1911&items_per_page=10&query=%22Owen+Forrest%22&snippet=true&start_date=01-01-1839

Great find.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 23 January 22 07:39 GMT (UK)
I think. Carthew was occupied by Capt and Mrs L.N. Silverlock

There are advertisements and letters to the editor etc from them at that address from 1922 to 1943.

1923 electoral roll has him as Nicholls Leonard Silverlock.   Carthew, Hemerdon. Polling district, Plympton St Mary


same for 1928


1930 his wife has made it to the roll. She is Freda Mary


added - in 1902 he was a Freemason in South Africa, at Bloemfontein "Rising Star Lodge". Trooper S.A.C.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 23 January 22 07:48 GMT (UK)
Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?

I think he studied law in SA but was always an accountant or related job. Maybe this was a lie/error in the article or maybe I’ve missed something!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Jennaya on Sunday 23 January 22 08:10 GMT (UK)
Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?

I think he studied law in SA but was always an accountant or related job. Maybe this was a lie/error in the article or maybe I’ve missed something!

Fair enough. I'm amazed about the amount of information found in this thread. As an aside, I have a couple of ancestors who wanted to hide from deserted wives, so both changed their names to their mothers maiden name.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Sunday 23 January 22 22:45 GMT (UK)
I am not yet convinced that the JOHNSON/JOHNSTON passengers on the Ionic in 1897 were found to be John Edmund SMITH and his two sons. 

I don't see anything sinister in John Edmund SMITH and his two young sons quitting England and going to South Africa and becoming known there as FORREST. 

I don't see anything sinister in Ethel Edith Kate SMITH quitting her marriage and reverting to her nee name of MAHON, but I wonder why she was known as Mrs MAHON.

I wonder why there does not seem to be any advertising by Mrs Mahon or Mrs Smith in the newspapers for her missing children.   When did this family split up - sometime after 1891 census - so why did she wait until 1898 to make what appears to be just ONE formal enquiry about her children -and not in any UK paper, nor in any Australian newspaper, ONLY to the police in Victoria?
 Who did she know that had found the time to go through outward passenger list after outward passenger list until finding a possible male JOHNSON with 2 JOHNSON children travelling to Hobart?  - and of course we cannot find them either !

There's really only the one change of surname for Mr SMITH, and it was to his mother's surname.  I don't see that as seeking to deceive or commit a fraud.   The surname FORREST in South Africa late 19th century :  a submitted tree :  https://www.1820settlers.com/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I113885&tree=master

JM[

quote author=majm link=topic=857317.msg7266583#msg7266583 date=1642901235]
Yes, it could well be he was simply running from his wife.  He took the children, a very brave thing to do in those times.  He gave them his protection from her during their childhood.  He did not put them into orphanages.  There is integrity in those decisions,  the family name is retained.


The research done once that FORREST sighting was found is absolutely grand,  Well Done.

MODIFIED to strike out Ethel and type in Edith    :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[


JM
[/quote]
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 23:31 GMT (UK)
Here is the passenger list for Owen E G Forrest and family onboard Ionic in 1908 from Capetown, South Africa to Wellington, NZ.
Interesting to note his brother Lionel is onboard too, and they say that they are “farmers”, which we know they were not. ::)
 But apart from Owen’s wife, and brother, there is a 4th male person. Who might this be - a child?

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJDJ-X97P
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 23 January 22 23:36 GMT (UK)
Isn’t it John himself?

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/EP19080908.2.100?items_per_page=10&query=Forrest+ionic&snippet=true
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 23 January 22 23:42 GMT (UK)
I wonder if this is him going back

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DSJS-2VZM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 23 January 22 23:49 GMT (UK)
Isn’t it John himself?
Ah, yes. Quite likely. It had not occurred to me that his adult children would need a "parental escort" to New Zealand.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 24 January 22 00:31 GMT (UK)
Initials look like J E to me and I’m sure it John. I wondered why the boys left alone, it makes sense that they all went. Wonder why John returned to South Africa. Thanks for finding that I knew he was on the ionic arriving 8/9/08 but hadn’t found the records.

I’ve been looking at the Charles Forrest in the 1930 census living with Owen in Philadelphia as his son. He was apparently born in Perth and had a Spanish mother. Seems quite odd. He was born the same year as Robert Gordon in NZ. Anyone found out about this person?

Thank you all so much for your continued interest in this story and your unbelievable help in going through records of my family. My ancient mother (she won’t read that!) is very pleased with all the research.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Monday 24 January 22 00:36 GMT (UK)
Initials look like J E to me and I’m sure it John. I wondered why the boys left alone, it makes sense that they all went. Wonder why John returned to South Africa. Thanks for finding that I knew he was on the ionic arriving 8/9/08 but hadn’t found the records.


in view of the letter to the editor by Owen, perhaps because he couldn't get work?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Monday 24 January 22 00:40 GMT (UK)

I’ve been looking at the Charles Forrest in the 1930 census living with Owen in Philadelphia as his son. He was apparently born in Perth and had a Spanish mother. Seems quite odd. He was born the same year as Robert Gordon in NZ. Anyone found out about this person?


If it wasn't for the other census record for Robert O. (in the army) I would have said 'Charles" was him. But if it was, it should still give 'Soldier' as his occupation shouldn't it.

My father in law was apt to call anyone Charlie.  "Hey Charlie bring me the hammer". 

How was the US census compiled? I don't know. But if someone went door to door, Owen or Ruth might say, Oh and of course there is Charlie, forgetting to qualify it with the fact that he wasn't there. (and that Charles wasn't his name!)

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 24 January 22 00:48 GMT (UK)
I’ve been looking at the Charles Forrest in the 1930 census living with Owen in Philadelphia as his son. He was apparently born in Perth and had a Spanish mother. Seems quite odd. He was born the same year as Robert Gordon in NZ. Anyone found out about this person?

I think, the 1930 census says Charles was born in Pennsylvania. I spent some time yesterday and again today trying to work out who he is. I got nowhere. Born the same year as Robert Owen Gordon who was in January 1909. It is possible, but he may have been born while the family were in transit from one country to another. And maybe this is why they do not appear in the 1910 census in USA. Did one have to enter the USA through Canada?
Why was Charles not with his father in the 1920 census? Where was he? With his mother? - and there is another unsolved question. I have not found what happened to her. No sign of her in the census, or another marriage, or of her death.


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 24 January 22 04:54 GMT (UK)
Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?
South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1929
Occupation:   Fellow London Society of Accountants; Sole Expert in Handwriting in South Africa
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby.

South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Date:   14 Mar 1858
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1916
Occupation:   Expert in Handwriting, Bookkeeping and Accounts
Notes:   Other: Fellow London Society of Accountants; Certificate of Transvaal Society of Accountants, 1911; Educated: Kingston-on-Thames. Joined London and County Bank, 1878, served nineteen years; all posts short of Manager. In Law Classes, King's College, gained "Hono ....

I think John’s changing occupations are just as fanciful as a lot of other things about that man.
In England before his name change, he was simply a bank cashier. In 1908 and 1909 travelling he has no occupation recorded and is travelling third class on each voyage – implies not at all wealthy. Then he seems to have been an accountant, and a journalist, and a solicitor, and a hand-writing expert to the supreme court.
When he died the probate index lists his effects at 209 English pounds.


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 24 January 22 04:55 GMT (UK)
South Africa, Maitland Cemetery

Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Gender:   Male
Race:   European
Age:   83
Occupation:   Retired Accountant
Birth Date:   abt 1861
Residence Place:   4 Stephen St Cape Town
Death Date:   15 Jul 1944
Burial or Cremation Date:   16 Jul 1944
Burial or Cremation Place:   Cape Town, South Africa
Burial Register:   Maitland Crematorium Internment Records
Where Death Registered:   Cape Province
How Remains Disposed:   Removed by Hoogendoorn Ltd 27 July 1944

John Edmund Forrest - London Gazette:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36875/page/201/data.pdf


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 24 January 22 05:44 GMT (UK)
Have I missed something. I thought JE was an accountant. Is this the same person who is a solicitor when his son dies?
South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1929
Occupation:   Fellow London Society of Accountants; Sole Expert in Handwriting in South Africa
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby.

South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Date:   14 Mar 1858
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1916
Occupation:   Expert in Handwriting, Bookkeeping and Accounts
Notes:   Other: Fellow London Society of Accountants; Certificate of Transvaal Society of Accountants, 1911; Educated: Kingston-on-Thames. Joined London and County Bank, 1878, served nineteen years; all posts short of Manager. In Law Classes, King's College, gained "Hono ....

I think John’s changing occupations are just as fanciful as a lot of other things about that man.
In England before his name change, he was simply a bank cashier. In 1908 and 1909 travelling he has no occupation recorded and is travelling third class on each voyage – implies not at all wealthy. Then he seems to have been an accountant, and a journalist, and a solicitor, and a hand-writing expert to the supreme court.
When he died the probate index lists his effects at 209 English pounds.

I do not think that John Edmund was a imposter at all.  I think the newspaper assumed that anyone associated with the Supreme Court would be a solicitor.    I see a bank cashier could easily be considered as an accountant and I am absolutely sure a bank cashier would have plenty of hand writing expertise.  After all this was late 1800s and early 1900s.   The typewriter was not an everyday piece of equipment, cheques, bank drafts, letters of credit, wills, powers of attorney, affidavits, were all written by hand and often required wax seals.    What was an accountant in 1900 -  what did he need to know - what formal qualifications would he had obtained - where would he have been trained.  Similarly a Journalist   - we need to put context here.    A man may have been deserted and it is quite possible that instead of turning his children over to an orphanage he has chosen to raise them himself.  And to do so away from any of his former wife's family.   Is it possible he was a battered husband?

JM Edited to overcome some very poor grammar.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Monday 24 January 22 05:54 GMT (UK)

 
South Africa, Biographical Index, 1825-2005
Name:   John Edmund Forrest
Event Type:   Birth
Birth Place:   New Malden, Surrey, England
Residence Year:   1929
Occupation:   Fellow London Society of Accountants; Sole Expert in Handwriting in South Africa
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby.

 

About one Lionel FORREST. Deceased 1915
This item tells that the deceased man was a student of Nelson Illingworth and son of a distinguished expert in handwriting

EDIT Sir Lionel FORREST

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19150917.2.20?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=lionel+forrest&snippet=true
                        
It has been noted that one Lionel FORREST lived at 35 Nairn Street Wellington in 1908 (#Reply 195, pg 22)  and there was discussion as to whether or not the Benjamin Collingwood FORREST living opposite at 40 Nairn Street was a relative.

The electoral Roll shows that also living at 35 Nairn St was Nelson Illingworth who was a sculptor of some renown.
A bio of Illingworth
https://www.portrait.gov.au/people/nelson-illingworth-1862
Another on page 11

https://australiana.org.au/resources/magazine_issues/21_January_1984_No_1.pdf

EDIT. I have added the name of the handwriting expert mentioned in the news item
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 24 January 22 06:43 GMT (UK)
...
Notes:   Other: Came to South Africa 1 March 1898. A great purveyor of walking sticks, which he cuts and fashions as a hobby....


Trove says RMS IONIC was due to Hobart 2 March 1898, so twas not the Ionic that brought the FORREST family to South Africa ! https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/39659999 Launceston Examiner, 1 March 1898. 

My geography re South Africa is dismal !  But Queen Victoria was Queen over South Africa too.  So was there a locality in South Africa known as Victoria ?   That may explain why Mrs Edith Kate Smith alerted the police in Victoria (Australia) looking for her husband and children. 

JM 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Monday 24 January 22 06:59 GMT (UK)
Oh,
I understood the whole confusing thing to be that  he arrived per Ionic to Hobart in May 1897.

The following March 1898 according to this biographical information from Neale, he arrive South Africa.
 ???
Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 24 January 22 07:34 GMT (UK)
Yes, the March 1898 arrival puzzled me too. (Intending to look further when I have some time.)
Yes I agree the newspapers have some responsibility in the solicitor business, but I wonder if that had been at the encouragement of some invention by his sons in NZ.
One wonders how much work there was for a hand-writing expert in court. :)

My imagination is running riot with the living arrangements between young Lionel and his sculpture teacher Illingworth. I will say no more…… :-X

Edited to correct date.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Monday 24 January 22 07:39 GMT (UK)
 


Yes, the March 1989 arrival puzzled me too. (Intending to look further when I have some time.)
Yes I agree the newspapers have some responsibility in the solicitor business, but I wonder if that had been at the encouragement of some invention by his sons in NZ.
One wonders how much work there was for a hand-writing expert in court. :)
??? :o ::)

And other things! For instance father is-

Sir Lionel FORREST

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 24 January 22 07:51 GMT (UK)



Yes, the March 1989 arrival puzzled me too. (Intending to look further when I have some time.)
Yes I agree the newspapers have some responsibility in the solicitor business, but I wonder if that had been at the encouragement of some invention by his sons in NZ.
One wonders how much work there was for a hand-writing expert in court. :)
??? :o ::)

And other things! For instance father is-

Sir Lionel FORREST

Sue

Yes “Sir” 🙄.

We don’t actually know when he left London - just that he arrived in SA 1st March 1898. Although that date hasn’t been confirmed with travel documents. I haven’t found anything yet.

I am keeping an open mind about why John left, anything is possible. Hard to know why the marriage broke down. Maybe she knew he was leaving but expected him back on a return ship and he never came. It’s certainly odd that she only appeared to put one ad in a paper. 

Edit to add: I do think it’s plausible that jobs are a little mixed up. Who told the journalist he was the only son ? Maybe they also thought he was a solicitor. So many records seem incorrect with standard ancestors that aren’t hiding anything.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Monday 24 January 22 08:35 GMT (UK)

New Zealand Times 21 Feb 1921 (from "Life", Melbourne)
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM19210221.2.13?

Letter from J E FORREST (Riversdale, Cape Province) .......about boat race on Thames years earlier, .....had a note to a friend.......when I was in Australia.....

John Edmund FORREST, in South Africa, is reading Melbourne newspaper, 1921?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 24 January 22 08:59 GMT (UK)
Yes “when in Australia”..it could have been anytime he was in Australia but I do think the Johnsons on the ionic in1897 are them. Spent almost year in Melbourne after leaving Hobart and then on the South Africa.
Interesting ..
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Monday 24 January 22 09:36 GMT (UK)


We don’t actually know when he left London - just that he arrived in SA 1st March 1898. Although that date hasn’t been confirmed with travel documents. I haven’t found anything yet.



We don't really know that he arrived in March 1898 either. I'm not sure where the information for the South Africa, Biographical Index comes from, it may contain errors. I wouldn't be sure until a passenger list could be found. Having looked for passenger lists to South Africa recently (although for much earlier time period) I seem to recall that they are hard to find.

This may be of interest - one of many advertisements for the voyages of the Ionic, noting that you could do a "round the world tour". :) This ad from The Times, Tuesday,  Mar. 9, 1897.  On another advertisement the round trip was stated as costing "from £65".
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 24 January 22 09:48 GMT (UK)
This is possibly the same J E Forrest. Travelled without his boys.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DSJS-2VZM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 24 January 22 09:59 GMT (UK)
This is possibly the same J E Forrest. Travelled without his boys.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DSJS-2VZM
See reply 220. Thought to be John returning to Sth Africa after leaving the sons in NZ.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 24 January 22 10:07 GMT (UK)
This is possibly the same J E Forrest. Travelled without his boys.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DSJS-2VZM
See reply 220. Thought to be John returning to Sth Africa after leaving the sons in NZ.

Ahh yes. Thanks. So much great information on here but hard to keep your head around it all :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 24 January 22 10:12 GMT (UK)
My reliable ancient rellies say:

Hand writing experts were still significant court expert witnesses until mid 1980s right around all the Westminster based justice system ( trial by jury,  not guilty until proven beyond reasonable doubt, etc).    Fraud could rest on a fake signed document. 

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 00:07 GMT (UK)
For interest, there are many hits for J E FORREST, to do with his handwriting expertise in the South African records eg:
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300ds?20220125020403D31D5463&PN=00000001

I find the search function not very intuitive, however if you scroll through these results you can find numerous entries, including one that appears to be an action of libel that he took against someone.
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?20220125015953D31D5463&DN=00000050

Modified to add:
I wonder what this one was about?
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?20220125021054D31D5463&DN=00000021
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 00:55 GMT (UK)
For interest, there are many hits for J E FORREST, to do with his handwriting expertise in the South African records eg:
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300ds?20220125020403D31D5463&PN=00000001

I find the search function not very intuitive, however if you scroll through these results you can find numerous entries, including one that appears to be an action of libel that he took against someone.
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?20220125015953D31D5463&DN=00000050

Modified to add:
I wonder what this one was about?
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm30ddf0?20220125021054D31D5463&DN=00000021

Interesting. 1900 is quite different to today but a petition to the King?! He obviously felt something was really unjust and he wasn’t afraid to fight it. Wonder if we can find out about this.

Can’t imagine petitioning the Queen for something that happens in the commonwealth! 

The initial search looked like a John M Forrest but the link doesn’t work on my phone. I’ll try again later.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 01:11 GMT (UK)
Apologies! Something has gone wrong with those links.

If you go to the South African Archives
http://www.national.archsrch.gov.za/sm300cv/smws/sm300dl

and search the "TAB" database with "Forrest", there are 282 hits. Click on the "Result Summary" tab and you can scroll through.

The last item (1901/04) was found in the "VAB" data base:
        " JE FORREST: PETITION TO HIS MAJESTY THE KING COMPLAINING OF           
           TREATMENT RECEIVED FROM ORANGE RIVER COLONY GOVERNMENT FORWARDED     
           WITH REQUEST FOR REPORT: MR. FORREST TO BE INFORMED THAT ENQUIRY IS 
           BEING MADE."   
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 01:23 GMT (UK)
Apologies! Something has gone wrong with those links.
Thanks Maddy. I thought it was just idiot me! :D
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 25 January 22 01:25 GMT (UK)
From my ancient rellies...

until the Statute of Westminster was adopted by each of the British Empire's dominions, each British Subject was entitled to individually petition their Monarch. 

Aust adopted it in 1942, backdating it to 1939 commencement of War, thus stopping Britain from bringing in a death sentence for two Royal Australian Navy lads.

JM 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 01:31 GMT (UK)
As I understand it, you can apply to the Archives for a copy of files, they charge for photocopying. If you wanted to spend some time and $$, probably best to contact them:
http://www.national.archives.gov.za/index.htm
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 06:34 GMT (UK)
In 1925 City Directories for Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, USA
There is Owen G Forest and spouse Dorothy Forest living at 308 E Northampton


I have come across a newspaper transcript (Ancestry) of the following marriage
Name: Mr Owen Gordon Forest
Occupation:   Local Representative Vacuum Oil Company
Marriage Date:   16 Nov 1920
Marriage Place:   Scranton, Pennsylvania, USA
Spouse: Dorothy (no surname mentioned), except her mother is "Mrs. Isaama Baldwin"

However, I cannot find a marriage record to go with it. So frustrating! :'(

Was there another marriage before he married Ruth Elizabeth KNELLY in 1927?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Tuesday 25 January 22 06:51 GMT (UK)
He was recorded as a widower in the 1920
And a divorcee in 1927
So a marriage in between does seem possible.

I don’t understand why I cannot find Owen & Robert arriving in the US between 1909 and 1920.
It would be good to see if Ethylyn was with them. ☹️
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 25 January 22 06:54 GMT (UK)
Divorced 1917


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSRG-Y81?cc=1589502&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AVF7B-MLY

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:00 GMT (UK)
Divorced 1917


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSRG-Y81?cc=1589502&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AVF7B-MLY

Sue

That is the 1927 marriage referred to earlier
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:10 GMT (UK)
I half noticed this yesterday but I have just double checked. If I have my records correct. Edith landed in New York in January 1889 but her third son was born in April London 1889. Seems like a big trip when heavily pregnant.. or maybe she wasn’t and John had an affair in her absence.

I wonder if you have had a moment to come back to the above.

The boy's birth was April 9th in London.

I think it would be worth clarifying as it strikes me as extremely unusual that a woman would even leave the country without her husband whilst pregnant, let alone take an ocean voyage to appear as a musician in public.

I have tried to see the voyages you mention, but not lucky.

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:17 GMT (UK)
K
Divorced 1917


https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:9Q97-YSRG-Y81?cc=1589502&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AVF7B-MLY



I noticed his address … a 15 min walk from his mothers house at the time. He has documented her as dead on the form. His father too. Both were alive.

Edit: his mother had died. Got confused with divorce date and date of the form. I too will process the info by page 30!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:18 GMT (UK)

That is the 1927 marriage referred to earlier


Oh yes so it is.
Perhaps I will have it al perfectly clear in my brain by the time we get to Page 30 ::)

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:20 GMT (UK)
He was recorded as a widower in the 1920
And a divorcee in 1927
So a marriage in between does seem possible.
I think the woman Dorothy (Baldwin?) was from Wyoming. It would be handy to have access to USA newspapers.

I don’t understand why I cannot find Owen & Robert arriving in the US between 1909 and 1920.
It would be good to see if Ethylyn was with them. ☹️
His WW1 draft is dated 9 Dec 1918 in Philadelphia. he gives the same address as he was in 1920 census. But apart from that I have not found him or his first wife either. Lots of going around in circles.

I came across this cemetery record, which piqued my interest, but have not been able to find a registered death that matches it.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGYM-B3M4
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:27 GMT (UK)
Assume it’s the Owen we are looking at.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:31 GMT (UK)
I half noticed this yesterday but I have just double checked. If I have my records correct. Edith landed in New York in January 1889 but her third son was born in April London 1889. Seems like a big trip when heavily pregnant.. or maybe she wasn’t and John had an affair in her absence.

I wonder if you have had a moment to come back to the above.

The boy's birth was April 9th in London.

I think it would be worth clarifying as it strikes me as extremely unusual that a woman would even leave the country without her husband whilst pregnant, let alone take an ocean voyage to appear as a musician in public.

I have tried to see the voyages you mention, but not lucky.

Sue
I think this is an error in the year, and it should be 1899.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:35 GMT (UK)

1899!
That makes a difference.
Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:40 GMT (UK)
Assume it’s the Owen we are looking at.

Dorothy B Forrest Married Owen G Forrest  on 9th November 1920. Dorothy was given a divorce (after sept 1st 1925) on the grounds of
cruel treatment.

I didn’t realise the publicly shared details ! Not sure on American Law but women had to prove beyond doubt of any claims I thought.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 07:53 GMT (UK)

1899!
That makes a difference.
Sue

An Edith Mahon landed in New York on 28th January 1889. This may not have been her. It’s hard to read some of the details but she is of the correct age and I think it says pianist under “calling”.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 08:02 GMT (UK)
I’m not sure I want to read all these articles .. Owen ran over 6 children with his truck April 25th 1921. He was released on $2000 bail. After a skull operation, one girl was expected to make a full recovery.

Edited. The little girl unfortunately died. Owen had only had his licence for a couple of days. His nephew (surname Baldwin) was also in the crash. 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 25 January 22 08:05 GMT (UK)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_in_the_United_States

Divorce Laws in early 20th century  stated based, not federal. 
Prior to the latter decades of the 20th century, divorce was considered to be against the public interest, and civil courts refused to grant a divorce except if one party to the marriage had betrayed the "innocent spouse." Thus, a spouse suing for divorce in most states had to show a "fault" such as abandonment, cruelty, incurable mental illness, or adultery.


JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 25 January 22 08:16 GMT (UK)
Re the NZ death found at Familysearch, https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGYM-B3M4

I think it may be on NZ bdm
as Edith FORREST, aged 63 years  1935/17554    (yes,  wrong age, wrong given name)

JM

EDIT - nope,  read ahead, Maddy sorted this.   :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 08:41 GMT (UK)
Unfortunately Edith Ellen FORREST death date 12 Aug 1936 (from NZ bdm), so I don't think that's the cemetery record.  :-\

Modified to add:
Sorry, there is Edith FORREST, but she died 17 April 1935.  :-\
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 08:52 GMT (UK)
Interestingly, there is a death for an Ethel May FORREST in South Australia on 10 Oct 1935, registered at Port Adelaide (574/4224).

Modified to add:
Death notice here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36188123

Doesn't mention husband, Dau of John GELVEN, so perhaps just a coincidence.

Modified again:
Actually this death notice does mention husband Gordon FORREST, and children, so I don't think it's Ethelyn.  :-\
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36188123
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:03 GMT (UK)
I’m not sure I want to read all these articles .. Owen ran over 6 children with his truck April 25th 1921. He was released on $2000 bail. After a skull operation, one girl was expected to make a full recovery.

Edited. The little girl unfortunately died. Owen had only had his licence for a couple of days. His nephew (surname Baldwin) was also in the crash.

Very sad, it's often the nature of newspaper findings - the sad and sensational.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:15 GMT (UK)
I’m not sure I want to read all these articles .. Owen ran over 6 children with his truck April 25th 1921. He was released on $2000 bail. After a skull operation, one girl was expected to make a full recovery.
Very sad, it's often the nature of newspaper findings - the sad and sensational.

Oh dear – Such a tragedy only a few months into the marriage. That must be hard to recover from. And then what appears to be domestic violence - and of course you wonder if that was the case with the first marriage. So many unknowns. All the publicity of the truck accident may explain why Owen started going by the name Gordon Forrest.

I still cannot find a civil or church record of the Forrest – Baldwin marriage in 1920.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:18 GMT (UK)
Interestingly, there is a death for an Ethel May FORREST in South Australia on 10 Oct 1935, registered at Port Adelaide (574/4224).

Modified to add:
Death notice here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36188123

Doesn't mention husband, Dau of John GELVEN, so perhaps just a coincidence.

Modified again:
Actually this death notice does mention husband Gordon FORREST, and children, so I don't think it's Ethelyn.  :-\
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article36188123
Maddy. Yes, that may well be the one. There is a West Tce cemetery in Adelaide, so I wonder how it has been indexed in New Zealand Cemeteries.  ::)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:22 GMT (UK)
Both Owen and Ethelyn are listed in” The divorce of mismatched couples with common pleas”
1917.
Does this imply she was present in America to enter a ‘common plea’?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:31 GMT (UK)
Both Owen and Ethelyn are listed in” The divorce of mismatched couples with common pleas”
1917.
Is it an American document / list? From where does it originate?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:49 GMT (UK)
Both Owen and Ethelyn are listed in” The divorce of mismatched couples with common pleas”
1917.

Is it an American document / list? From where does it originate?

Sorry I had intended to attach the article but my images are too large. It’s from the Philadelphia inquirer 1917.

38 couples were granted separation . The mismatched couples with common pleas are: Owen Edmund Gordon Forrest from Ethelyn Marie Forrest.   
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 09:59 GMT (UK)

1899!
That makes a difference.
Sue

An Edith Mahon landed in New York on 28th January 1889. This may not have been her. It’s hard to read some of the details but she is of the correct age and I think it says pianist under “calling”.
I had a look at that passenger list. She is about the right age. The only detail it gives for that Edith Mahon is “spinster” and from “Somersetshire”. I think it is probably NOT your Edith.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 10:05 GMT (UK)
Both Owen and Ethelyn are listed in” The divorce of mismatched couples with common pleas”
1917.

Sorry I had intended to attach the article but my images are too large. It’s from the Philadelphia inquirer 1917.

38 couples were granted separation . The mismatched couples with common pleas are: Owen Edmund Gordon Forrest from Ethelyn Marie Forrest.


Sorry, i know nothing about divorce in USA. It sounds as if they were both in Philadelphia.
I have been searching for Ethelyn for days now. I had assumed she went to USA with Owen, but my search has been extended global , and she still eludes me. !!


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 10:08 GMT (UK)

1899!
That makes a difference.
Sue

An Edith Mahon landed in New York on 28th January 1889. This may not have been her. It’s hard to read some of the details but she is of the correct age and I think it says pianist under “calling”.
I had a look at that passenger list. She is about the right age. The only detail it gives for that Edith Mahon is “spinster” and from “Somersetshire”. I think it is probably NOT your Edith.

Yes, I agree. There is an Edith Marion MAHON baptised in Somerset on 1 Nov 1863 - possibly her.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 10:09 GMT (UK)
Both Owen and Ethelyn are listed in” The divorce of mismatched couples with common pleas”
1917.

Sorry I had intended to attach the article but my images are too large. It’s from the Philadelphia inquirer 1917.

38 couples were granted separation . The mismatched couples with common pleas are: Owen Edmund Gordon Forrest from Ethelyn Marie Forrest.


Sorry, i know nothing about divorce in USA. It sounds as if they were both in Philadelphia.
I have been searching for Ethelyn for days now. I had assumed she went to USA with Owen, but my search has been extended global , and she still eludes me. !!

Great effort Neale !! I can’t find anything on her either or her parents.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 25 January 22 10:16 GMT (UK)

Sorry, i know nothing about divorce in USA. It sounds as if they were both in Philadelphia.
I have been searching for Ethelyn for days now. I had assumed she went to USA with Owen, but my search has been extended global , and she still eludes me. !!

Me too! I know there are a lot of porkies told in this story ... however Owen G FORREST does say widowed on the 1920 census rather than divorced, the box allows for "single, married, widowed or divorced". I do wonder where she is?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 10:48 GMT (UK)
Here’s my current thinking around "enigmatic" Ethelyn ...… she disappears in 1919.
On 9 Dec 1918 Owen Forrest fills in his WW1 draft card with his address – the same address as he is living when the 1920 census comes around.- 738 No. 20th St. Philadelphia
On the draft card, he names his son Robert Owen Forrest (who would only be 9 years old) as next of kin. But his son’s abode / address is different. It is 578 W Sedgewick st – Maryland? (not sure of the Maryland word)
So I think in December 1918 the son was living with his mother Ethelyn, but by early 1920 and census time, she had moved on, and the son came to live with Owen in Philadelphia.


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 18:32 GMT (UK)
That certainly sounds about right.
I know this doesn’t help piece things together but I’ve found an article on Owen claiming to be a captain in the Australian military forces. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t!!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 25 January 22 19:15 GMT (UK)
Here’s my current thinking around "enigmatic" Ethelyn ...… she disappears in 1919.
On 9 Dec 1918 Owen Forrest fills in his WW1 draft card with his address – the same address as he is living when the 1920 census comes around.- 738 No. 20th St. Philadelphia
On the draft card, he names his son Robert Owen Forrest (who would only be 9 years old) as next of kin. But his son’s abode / address is different. It is 578 W Sedgewick st – Maryland? (not sure of the Maryland word)
So I think in December 1918 the son was living with his mother Ethelyn, but by early 1920 and census time, she had moved on, and the son came to live with Owen in Philadelphia.

On the 26th April 1919 there’s an article saying that a Mrs Mary Dolphin died. A Mrs Owen Forrest of Scranton is one of the daughters listed. Her maybe?

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 25 January 22 20:46 GMT (UK)
I’ve found an article on Owen claiming to be a captain in the Australian military forces. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t!!
Can you post the date and place of the article please. :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 26 January 22 00:25 GMT (UK)
This is interesting:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1611727

On page 8 Owen Gordon FORREST describes how he was born in Perth, ran away to South Africa and fought in the Boer War and came to the US in 1909 on the Mariposa, and fought with the Federal Army.   ::)

Also on page 12 he says he was born in Texas!

Page 18 - he definitely knows of his mother's death in London, I can't remember - have you found a will for Edith Kate MAHON/SMITH? Sounds like he may be mentioned in an inheritance.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 00:47 GMT (UK)
I’ve found an article on Owen claiming to be a captain in the Australian military forces. I’m pretty sure he wasn’t!!
Can you post the date and place of the article please. :)

Sorry I meant to. Philadelphia inquirer 3rd July 1932.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 00:48 GMT (UK)
Oh Maddy, what a find! Now there is some very humorous stuff to read there, and a lot which explains other things. I need to have a re-read. :D
However, two things become apparent - he was not always of sound mind, and he was very confused about who he was or where he was born. His father had kept him in the dark.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 01:04 GMT (UK)
This is interesting:
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1611727

On page 8 Owen Gordon FORREST describes how he was born in Perth, ran away to South Africa and fought in the Boer War and came to the US in 1909 on the Mariposa, and fought with the Federal Army.   ::)

Also on page 12 he says he was born in Texas!

Page 18 - he definitely knows of his mother's death in London, I can't remember - have you found a will for Edith Kate MAHON/SMITH? Sounds like he may be mentioned in an inheritance.

What a find Maddy. Excellent discovery. This is great information. Not surprised they couldn’t find documents on him anywhere. What is fiction and what isn’t?!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Wednesday 26 January 22 01:07 GMT (UK)
Maddy for RChatter of the Year.

 :D  :D  :D
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 01:17 GMT (UK)
Maddy for RChatter of the Year.

 :D  :D  :D

👍. I think this has to be the biggest thread of the year !

No Will found.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 26 January 22 01:28 GMT (UK)
 ;D ;D Still early in the year!

I have been looking into Col D P DRISCOLL mentioned by Owen Gordon - he founded "Driscoll's Scouts" in South Africa - some info and a picture here:
http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol061ob.html

Quite a bit about him on google. I suppose it is possible that Owen served with him somewhere, he says he had a personal letter from DRISCOLL. I suppose it is possible that Owen was a member of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. I'm sure he could tell some interesting stories!  ;D
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 26 January 22 01:36 GMT (UK)

No Will found.

Unfortunately the UK probatesearch/wills website is down until Jan 28.
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 26 January 22 02:00 GMT (UK)
Maddy for RChatter of the Year.

 :D  :D  :D

Such a find!

He doesn’t mention “Charles” in any of that.
It would be interesting to see if John Lionel’s birth was registered in Perth, but I suppose 100 years applies?
I wonder what information he put on the NZ birth certificate. If he produced it at this time,  it must say Perth too?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 02:20 GMT (UK)
It would be interesting to see if John Lionel’s birth was registered in Perth, but I suppose 100 years applies?
I wonder what information he put on the NZ birth certificate. If he produced it at this time,  it must say Perth too?
You can search WA births up to 1932. There is nothing there for John Lionel Forrest (that I can find).
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: wivenhoe on Wednesday 26 January 22 02:28 GMT (UK)


He managed to get a lot done in a short time, between continents, in era of snail mail.......negotiate with government departments, locate a doctor etc.

I think the British Consulate did not believe him either, even with the documentation he produced.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 26 January 22 02:46 GMT (UK)

I see nothing in Western Australia about the venerable Dr Angus Boyd who brought our  Owen into the world. ::)

Or his well-kept files!

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 03:26 GMT (UK)
 :) Yes who is this Dr that was present at his birth?!

I can’t see any reason for them to have been in Perth or Texas and am certain they were all born in London. Although I’m starting to question myself with all these made up facts.

I have applied for Richards/Lionel’s birth  certificate - it should be sent soon.

Edith died before these letters so he obviously never spoke to her (or hardly) to find out who he was and where he was born.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 26 January 22 03:43 GMT (UK)
He would remember the voyage from England in 1897.
I believe he knew his birthplace and date.

I begin to wonder whether he was a child with neurological differences which made him difficult to raise.
Perhaps he developed into an adulthood of fantasy, lies and what we call today sociopathic tendencies.

Was it all too great a strain on the marriage of his parents Edith and John?

Anyhow, easy to speculate 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 04:11 GMT (UK)
He would remember the voyage from England in 1897.
I believe he knew his birthplace and date.

I begin to wonder whether he was a child with neurological differences which made him difficult to raise.
Perhaps he developed into an adulthood of fantasy, lies and what we call today sociopathic tendencies.

Was it all too great a strain on the marriage of his parents Edith and John?

Anyhow, easy to speculate

Yes easy to speculate and almost nothing is off the table !
It appears so easy to claim anything in those days. Wonder what he was told about Edith (that she was dead by the looks of it) must have been a surprise to learn that she was in London/Philadelphia all along.

He said he was born in 1884. London records are for 1885. He was obviously troubled to have run away from home in 1899 to another part of the commonwealth. That’s a massive move for a 14/15 year old. Probably another fabrication of the truth.
I never expected to uncover such an ‘interesting’ cousin.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 26 January 22 04:24 GMT (UK)
Arriving in San Francisco by Mariposa ex Tahiti looks like it is probably the truth

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/AS19090811.2.3.1?end_date=11-08-1909&query=Mariposa+&start_date=11-08-1909&title=AS

Do the San Francisco papers list passenger arrivals?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 05:39 GMT (UK)
The NZ papers document that the HAUROTO was doing regular runs to Papeete
Arriving in San Francisco by Mariposa ex Tahiti looks like it is probably the truth

Owen’s ranting and raving in that bundle of letters does give the impression of being a bit of a fruitcake (nutty variety). Even his letter to the editor in New Zealand in 1909 gave a similar impression. Maybe some mental instability was the reason that he found it difficult to get work in both NZ and USA.

The son John Lionel Gordon was born 18 March 1928. Within 3 days, by 21st March, Owen had been in to the consulate to have his son registered as a British Subject, and then fought to make sure it was so. I wonder why this was so vitally important for him?
If the mysterious Charles (1930 census) was Owen’s son, then why was he not registered as British too? I think we might assume Charles was not a biological son.

Owen also writes that he has been in the service of the Australian Commonwealth until 1919 and served in the great war. We know that is impossible and a total fabrication. The consulate would have had no difficulty checking that fact, had they wanted.

ADDED: Having gone to all that trouble to prove he was born in Perth Australia, by the 1940 census Owen is back to being born in Texas. ;D

ADDED MORE: As for participating in the Zulu War - wasn’t this event before he was born?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 26 January 22 06:27 GMT (UK)

ADDED: Having gone to all that trouble to prove he was born in Perth Australia, by the 1940 census Owen is back to being born in Texas. ;D



While his Mum was visiting Uncle Friendly and Aunty Jenny who lived there. ;D ;D
For a year or so.

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 06:41 GMT (UK)
🤣🤣

This article said very light on passengers. Not listed as cabin passengers.
San Fransisco Examiner November 13th 1909
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 26 January 22 08:01 GMT (UK)
Owen was an engineer.
Is it possible he was crew on the Mariposa?

He had complained of lack of employment in Oct 1908 (letter to paper)
Had a child in Jan 1909
Boarded a ship supposedly with wife and child, Aug 12th 1909

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 08:03 GMT (UK)
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7949/images/m1412_6-0815?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=1daad9363b55b2e533873ad640cfe720&pId=1704118

Interestingly there is a R O Mahon to Philadelphia. Can’t find anyone with the name Forrest
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 26 January 22 08:41 GMT (UK)
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7949/images/m1412_6-0815?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=1daad9363b55b2e533873ad640cfe720&pId=1704118

Interestingly there is a R O Mahon to Philadelphia. Can’t find anyone with the name Forrest

Have you looked at the two faint entries above R.O. Mahon? I know what I think I see.  ;D.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 26 January 22 08:48 GMT (UK)
Looks like it might be them.  :D

O G ------  something clerk, born US
Ethelyn (maybe, wishful thinking?) ---- England
R O ----  New Zealand


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 08:52 GMT (UK)
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7949/images/m1412_6-0815?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=1daad9363b55b2e533873ad640cfe720&pId=1704118

Interestingly there is a R O Mahon to Philadelphia. Can’t find anyone with the name Forrest

Have you looked at the two faint entries above R.O. Mahon? I know what I think I see.  ;D.

His parents .. who as just going to take a good look through the digitised version. R O Mahon is 9 though.
If so. He was fully aware of his heritage
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 26 January 22 08:55 GMT (UK)
As an aside, hoping to find Ethelyn, I have found out who was living at 548 Sedgewick St Mt Airy, Philadelphia in 1920 (where Owen's next of kin Robert was living on the 1918 draft registration).

Unfortunately it looks like not related:
George Gould LAWYER ( 1874) dentist, and his family. He is the home owner, but they were not there in 1910.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 26 January 22 09:02 GMT (UK)
https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7949/images/m1412_6-0815?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=1daad9363b55b2e533873ad640cfe720&pId=1704118

Interestingly there is a R O Mahon to Philadelphia. Can’t find anyone with the name Forrest

Have you looked at the two faint entries above R.O. Mahon? I know what I think I see.  ;D.

His parents .. who as just going to take a good look through the digitised version. R O Mahon is 9 though.
If so. He was fully aware of his heritage

It could be 9mths.  That would just about work.

Added. I think Mr Mahon’s occupation is R.R. detective !

Corrected occupation (my version)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 09:07 GMT (UK)
Added. I think Mr Mahon’s occupation is M.R.R. detective !
it is them alright.
The M is for Male. What looks like clerk is actually U.S.
Occupation is R. R. Selector? or Teacher? Trying to think what R R is short for.
Or yes, could be Detective

The fact that he is using the surname Mahon at this stage, and heading for Philadelphia, puts a whole different slant on the story. !
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 26 January 22 09:25 GMT (UK)
Added. I think Mr Mahon’s occupation is M.R.R. detective !
it is them alright.
The M is for Male. What looks like clerk is actually U.S.
Occupation is R. R. Selector? or Teacher? Trying to think what R R is short for.
Or yes, could be Detective

The fact that he is using the surname Mahon at this stage, puts a whole different slant on the story. !

How does he keep up with all the name changes and careers?!
Yes, using the surname Mahon is intriguing and makes sense that he knew of her considering he was headed to Philadelphia.  Also maybe explains why she didn’t put many articles in looking for them - she made contact before 1909?
Wonder what his wife thought?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 09:30 GMT (UK)
How does he keep up with all the name changes and careers?!
He doesn't cope very well  ---- we know what happens in the future.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 26 January 22 09:40 GMT (UK)
Rail Road Detective?

https://digitalarchives.powerlibrary.org/papd/islandora/object/papd%3Akmheh-thpc_2402

Although it seems a bit of an odd occupation for someone to have when arriving in the US from NZ.  Unless he had the job arranged?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 10:13 GMT (UK)
He was employed by the railway in South Africa. Maybe that was his old job.
I'm not sure he had work in NZ.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 26 January 22 10:13 GMT (UK)
I feel like I remember reading somewhere that he worked for the Railways - was that in South Africa? Will have to go back and check.

Yes, "railway clerk" on his marriage to Ethelyn.

You beat me to it Neale, have typed this so will post anyway.  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Wednesday 26 January 22 10:18 GMT (UK)
When he and Ethelyn had  their baby, he said in the news notice,
'Railway magazine please copy'

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Wednesday 26 January 22 23:05 GMT (UK)
Owen quotes a letter regarding his parents coming to England for the Jubilee. “You were a brat of three or four …. But you three boys were born in Australia.”
This was the Golden Jubilee of Queen Victoria celebrated in June 1887. The son named Bertram Gordon Smith was born in England about April 1887 (baptised in June) and died the following year in England. At the same time “Dad went home” (to Australia) and “mother went to Texas.... ” for a year. The third son had not yet been born.


Owen’s letters mention the Major J H W Porter (twice), and Col. D. P. Driscoll, and “The Legion of Frontiersman”
This webpage has information that connects all three
https://frontiersmenhistorian.info/between-the-wars-and-world-war-ii/


Owen’s letter of 18 May 1927 is signed. Capt Gordon Forrest   16591    L.F.
I am uncertain what L.F. stands for (Legion of Frontiersmen or Lethal Fighter?), but that looks like a service number, which might be possible to trace – if it is for real.


On both the WW1 draft card (1918) and the WW2 draft card (1942), Owen writes his correct date and year of birth. He knew he was not born in 1884.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 27 January 22 00:07 GMT (UK)


Owen’s letters mention the Major J H W Porter (twice), and Col. D. P. Driscoll, and “The Legion of Frontiersman”
This webpage has information that connects all three
https://frontiersmenhistorian.info/between-the-wars-and-world-war-ii/


Owen’s letter of 18 May 1927 is signed. Capt Gordon Forrest   16591    L.F.
I am uncertain what L.F. stands for (Legion of Frontiersmen or Lethal Fighter?), but that looks like a service number, which might be possible to trace – if it is for real.



Did you notice in that article about the Frontiersmen that Owen is mentioned.

"The disquiet eventually brought about a breakaway, which began in July 1927 and was apparently instigated by Capt. O. Gordon Forrest. It was completed by March 1928 ...."

Sorry, of course you noticed, but the date is interesting.  :)

Modified to add:
Possibly contacting the author of that blog (contact details on the website) may yield some further information. He may have a list of the enrolment numbers, which may include other information?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 00:50 GMT (UK)
Yes, the date was rather later than I was expecting, but the important letter Owen had registered in 1927 may have been in regard to this break away action mentioned.
I agree, the owner of the web site might be a good contact to see if service records exist.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 27 January 22 02:44 GMT (UK)
Hi
Some of us (myself included ;D) do not have an ancestry sub which allows us to view some US document.

If anyone has time, could they take a snip and post it of the page showing MAHON on board and the surrounding mysterious entries.

https://www.ancestry.com/imageviewer/collections/7949/images/m1412_6-0815?backlabel=ReturnSearchResults&queryId=1daad9363b55b2e533873ad640cfe720&pId=1704118


Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: mckha489 on Thursday 27 January 22 02:49 GMT (UK)

If anyone has time, could they take a snip and post it of the page showing MAHON on board and the surrounding mysterious entries.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Thursday 27 January 22 02:58 GMT (UK)
many thanks for that. 

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 27 January 22 03:36 GMT (UK)
And from me. ;D
 


EDIT
Just reread some of this thread and deleted part of this post.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 05:42 GMT (UK)
I have found Owen in Boer War records.
He is Trooper 569 Owen Edmund Gordon SMITH (Interesting that his name is not yet Forrest)
He appears to have attested in March 1901. He would have been 16 years old.
I believe the date written in red is his discharge date – can’t decide if it is July 1901 or 1907. I think it must be 1901, so he didn’t serve for very long. I am not sure what the other annotations in red are about.
Of course his old friend Captain D P. Driscoll was leader of the Scouts.! :D
Driscoll’s Scouts   https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=329
Click on the tab for “Nominal roll images - roll 1  (to the right) to go to the original documents, which are not alphabetically listed.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 05:42 GMT (UK)
Do you think this could possibly be his brother in the Imperial Light Infantry under the name Lewis SMITH
Private 1245 - Attested 26 Sept 1900 and discharged 29 June 1901. He would have been only 9-10 years old!
https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=344
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 27 January 22 06:08 GMT (UK)


I wonder if it’s a 7, only because the man 2 above is a 01 and it looks different. Very hard to tell. Good find.. again!

It’s all very interesting that he’s used Smith, Forrest & Mahon on official documents.

In his letters he said he went to the Yukon. I assume that would be via ship as Alaska is a long way from California. I can’t find any travel documents or from there to Mexico. Maybe he used yet another name.

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 06:21 GMT (UK)
I don't think it can be 1907, as the Driscoll Scouts were disbanded after the Boer War.
Added - and remember Owen was married in March 1907 and working for the railway.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 07:03 GMT (UK)

In his letters he said he went to the Yukon. I assume that would be via ship as Alaska is a long way from California. I can’t find any travel documents or from there to Mexico. Maybe he used yet another name.
Would he not go by train from Philadelphia to Alaska?
He must have been in the Yukon before the 1910 census was taken on 15 April.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 27 January 22 09:31 GMT (UK)
Great find Neale!

Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: cupoflife on Thursday 27 January 22 11:09 GMT (UK)
These may have already been posted.
The Wilkes-Barre Record from Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania · Sept 6, 1928, Pg 8
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/101344998/
Mrs. O. G. Forrest and son, John Lionel, of Philadelphia, were recent guests of the former's father, John Knelly, 166 South Washington Street. John Fenton of New York City visited his wife and daughter at the Knelly home over the week-end and Labor Day.

Search “O. G. Forrest” and “John Lionel Forrest” for other articles (including orbit to John Knelly). Did John Lionel Forrest marry Lucille Julia Clement.?

Wilkes-Barre Times Leader, The Evening News from Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania · Dec 18, 1944, Pg 3
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/131048998/
John Knelly, Barber Dies
Retired in 1942, after 62 years service

John Knelly, 88, of 166 South Washington street, city, a barber in this city for 62 years until he retired two years ago, died of heart attack at 10 this morning in his home. He became blind a year ago and since had been confined to his home. For 17 years before he retired two years ago, Mr. Knelly had his Barber shop at the same address as his residence, and for 45 years conducted a shop at 70 East Northampton street, city. When he was one year old, Mr. Knelly came with his parents to this city from Tamaqua where he was born May 31, 1858. The body was removed to Luther M. Kniffen funeral home. 465 South Main street, city, from where the funeral will be held. Surviving children are: Carl Garwood, N. J.; Mrs. O. G. Forrest, Philadelphia; Lee, Wilkes-Barre; Mrs. John Fenton, at Home, and four grandchildren.

Green Bay Press-Gazette from Green Bay, Wisconsin · April 14, 1954; Pg 16
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/188544606/
Forrest-Clement Vows Repeated Saturday
John Lionel Forrest and Lucille Julia Clement, both of Sault Ste. Marie, Mich., were united in marriage Saturday morning by Alfred D. Cookson, justice of the peace. Mr. and Mrs. Raymond Woodford attended the couple at the 10 o'clock ceremony.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 27 January 22 18:12 GMT (UK)
Interesting.

Not sure if we’ve covered this before either but I have Lionel Gordon Forrest marrying a Theresa M Mott in 1949. Address given is the same as Lionel’s service records.

Added: Names are mentioned in March 20 1949 Philadelphia Inquirer for marriage license

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6Q63-Q91?i=147&cc=1388247&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AJVQL-GZT

In this newspaper article (added May 3 1964 News and Observer) Lionel is married to Terry (Teresa) and has a 14 year old daughter Chris. 

https://www.newspapers.com/image/652382436/?terms=Lionel%20%20forrest%22&match=1
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 27 January 22 19:29 GMT (UK)
Trying to attach article
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 20:52 GMT (UK)
Sorry, not able to read - too tiny.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 27 January 22 21:29 GMT (UK)
Sorry I tried to change the resolution and save as a Pdf…

To summarise. Lionel was an architectural model maker in Philadelphia. He was struggling to find work and then found a job at NASA making space models for youth education programmes. He did a few jobs for the Franklin institute. NASA decided to do a series of space exhibits and used Lionel. He made many moon vehicle models. One ended up with President Kennedy. Lionel had no idea until he saw it on TV when his office was packed up after he was assassinated. 
The pressure became to great at NASA (whilst lucrative) he left and returned to making models and focussed on military figures. In spring 64 he rented his house in Philadelphia and sailed south.
They stopped in North Carolina and decided to stay a bit longer. He
managed to get work at the Fort Fisher diorama making military models. He expected to take 6 weeks to finish the work and then they’d possibly move on. They had no firm plans and hinted that they make not settle anywhere permanently again.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Thursday 27 January 22 21:41 GMT (UK)
Thanks. Interesting that so many members of the family across a number of generations have dabbled in the creative arts.
I suppose you noticed on the 1940 census, his father Owen Gordon, was working as a visual arts teacher.

Added: There are quite a few passenger list records (on ancestry) showing Lionel's, which supports him not settling for long anywhere.

Death Index
Name:   Lionel Forrest
Social Security Number:   172-22-9534
Birth Date:   18 Mar 1928
Issue Year:   Before 1951
Issue State:   Pennsylvania
Last Residence:   745, (U.S. Consulate) Madrid, Spain
Death Date:   24 Jan 1998
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 28 January 22 00:39 GMT (UK)
Hmmm. Maybe the George that died isn’t my George.
George did end up in Sydney though. He was a Widower when he married Ida Tindell on 31st May 1893 at St Michael Church in Sydney. His birth location is New Malden Surrey England - my missing man’s same birth location so I’m sure this is his brother.
Just tying up some loose ends ……
This is the correct brother to John Edmund SMITH, and I wonder if John was following his brother’s lead when he departed with his 2 boys to Australia.

George Arthur SMITH divorced his first wife Ellen Maria MERRYWEATHER, on the grounds she has committed adultery. Divorce petition filed in 1889 & Final decree was in Nov 1892. George got custody of the three children and brought them to Australia.
In 1892 he filed for bankruptcy in Sydney
In 1893 he married Ida Tindall in Sydney
1903-1904 in electoral rolls working as a bank clerk in Sydney
1910 Died in Sydney.

The children were:
1/   Frances Margaret SMITH born 1880 England
2/   Florence Elizabeth SMITH born England 1882, died NSW 1955
Married Gustavus HAVERSTEIN in 1903 Sydney. Gustavus shot himself (suicide) in 1908.
Florence married again in 1916 Sydney to John George Stickley FOUNTAIN.
3/   Percival Arthur William SMITH born 1884 England; died 1919 Newtown
In 1898 he was in trouble with the law for truancy, keeping bad company and wandering the streets. His father gave evidence against him. The boy claimed he ran away as his parents were cruel to him.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 28 January 22 08:56 GMT (UK)
I agree with the family of George above. Interesting that Percival went off the rails.

I found an article (below if you have access). July 30 1940.
Owen was assigned by the Department of Visual Education to take school groups through the Philadelphia aquarium.

In another article, Lionel mentioned that his father was associated with Philadelphia zoo.

https://www.newspapers.com/image/171091431/?terms=Owen%20forrest&match=1
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 28 January 22 09:01 GMT (UK)
I think I have discovered why John Edmund calls himself a "journalist". He wrote a series of "Letters to the Editor" to the Sunday Times during the 1920s and 1930s. In many he mentions time in Australia. Will copy a few here, happy to send the lot to Arnside.  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 28 January 22 09:05 GMT (UK)
I think I have discovered why John Edmund calls himself a "journalist". He wrote a series of "Letters to the Editor" to the Sunday Times during the 1920s and 1930s. In many he mentions time in Australia. Will copy a few here, happy to send the lot to Arnside.  :)

It would be great if you could send them to me. Thanks !
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 28 January 22 09:05 GMT (UK)
Sunday Times    Sunday,  Apr. 12, 1925
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 28 January 22 09:09 GMT (UK)
The Sunday Times     Sunday,  Mar. 27, 1927
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 28 January 22 09:12 GMT (UK)
The Sunday Times     Sunday,  Sept. 18, 1927
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 28 January 22 09:16 GMT (UK)
Doesn't help with dating at all, but I like this one - could have been written today!

Sunday Times     Sunday,  Mar. 16, 1924
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 28 January 22 09:20 GMT (UK)
Barton McGUCKIN sang in Australia in 1897, leaving in November 1897 according to this article. If John Edmund saw him, John must have been in Oz before then.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article120783018

Modified to add:
The performances were in Melbourne beginning 25 Sept 1897
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article54504031

and in Sydney 2 October 1897
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14094335

Many other articles on trove. Unfortunately as they appear to have given concerts in a number of cities, it doesn't help with exactly where John Edmund was.

Modified to correct the date that McGUCKIN was in Oz.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 28 January 22 09:53 GMT (UK)
That does tie up with the initial information that John and the two boys were on the ionic to Hobart in March/April 1897.  Good to get that linked.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 28 January 22 10:01 GMT (UK)
It seems more logical that they would go to Sydney where they knew someone (John’s brother).
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 28 January 22 10:12 GMT (UK)
Yes agree. I just meant that was their first port as Edith suspected but I imagine they moved on to the mainland soon after they arrived. I did noticed that the tour did extend to Tasmania after Australian cities. I still believe Sydney is the most likely city John went to.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 28 January 22 22:31 GMT (UK)
I had assumed that John Edmund Smith / Forrest would have moved to Sth Africa because there were good prospects for employment, but numerous articles in the Australian press at the time indicate the opposite was true. So one wonders why they went to Africa.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/149736629?searchTerm=employment%20AND%20Africa
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14088437?searchTerm=employment%20AND%20Africa
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215790403?searchTerm=employment%20AND%20Africa


Another small item of interest is that Edith Kate Mahon had a brother named Herbert John (1858-1926).
In the 1900 census Edith Kate Smith is living with her brother Herbert John Mahon in Philadelphia. He worked as a hotel steward. By 1910 Herbert is in Salt Lake City.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Friday 28 January 22 23:48 GMT (UK)
Owen mentioned in his letters (to the Australian Embassy) that he had run away from home and entered the Boer war. I had assumed he went alone and that John and Lionel followed. No evidence for that though.

Herbert Mahon left England after his wife died. I believe he accompanied Edith on one of her sailings. He purchased property in Philadelphia in 1907.  In a later sailing to the U.S, he noted that he was going to Salt Lake City for work.  From 1909 he appears to have had quite a successful career as a hotel manager in the west, with stints of a few years each as a hotel manager in Vancouver, British Columbia, Salt Lake City, Utah, Helena, Montana, then back to Salt Lake City.  He appears to have died in San Diego in 1923.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 29 January 22 00:47 GMT (UK)
Owen mentioned in his letters (to the Australian Embassy) that he had run away from home and entered the Boer war. I had assumed he went alone and that John and Lionel followed. No evidence for that though.
If anyone ran away from home, I think it was probably Lionel (Lewis). He was only 9, when he joined up in Sept 1900, and that fits with a lad who was running away. So, I believe they were in Sth Africa already by then.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 29 January 22 02:02 GMT (UK)
Yes, I'm not sure about "running away from home". It may have been father and sons running away from home in England.  ::)

Actually, I have been looking for a travel record for Edith going to America in 1897 without luck so far. This is the year she consistently says she entered the US on the census records. It would be interesting to see who left first - Edith or John and boys?

Btw, I checked the date that the play "School For Scandal" mentioned in J E FORREST's letter of 1925 where he says he saw Johnston FORBES ROBERTSON perform. John says it was 1897, however from what I can see FORBES ROBERTSON, Mrs Patrick CAMPBELL and Fred TERRY performed in this play around June to August 1896. In 1897 FORBES ROBERTSON and Mrs Patrick CAMPBELL were performing Hamlet.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 29 January 22 02:12 GMT (UK)
Yes, I'm not sure about "running away from home". It may have been father and sons running away from home in England.  ::)

Actually, I have been looking for a travel record for Edith going to America in 1897 without luck so far. This is the year she consistently says she entered the US on the census records. It would be interesting to see who left first - Edith or John and boys?

Btw, I checked the date that the play "School For Scandal" mentioned in J E FORREST's letter of 1925 where he says he saw Johnston FORBES ROBERTSON perform. John says it was 1897, however from what I can see FORBES ROBERTSON, Mrs Patrick CAMPBELL and Fred TERRY performed in this play around June to August 1896. In 1897 FORBES ROBERTSON and Mrs Patrick CAMPBELL were performing Hamlet.

Agh .... To be or NOT to be ... that is the question. 

Sorry  :P  :P  :P  :P  :P
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 29 January 22 02:26 GMT (UK)
In the 1900 census Edith says her arrival in USA is 1898. The later census say she arrived in 1897. The think the 1900 census is correct.
She is in Chicago in March 1898 when she places the advert looking for her husband and kids in Australia. There are newspaper reports of her performances in 1899 in Chicago.
Maybe she had been looking for them for a while and with help from someone, eventually got news of them going to Australia and the name change.
I don’t have access to British newspapers, and you may have already looked for reports in the English press in 1897.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 29 January 22 02:36 GMT (UK)
If you are a resident in Australia, you can readily access the BNA historic newspapers via the freely available National Library of Australia's readers card.

https://www.nla.gov.au/getalibrarycard/

https://www.nla.gov.au/getting-started/online

I am a resident of NSW, and so I have a readers card from NSW State Library.   It too has excellent eresources.  https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/research-and-collections/get-library-card

JM

ADD https://www.nla.gov.au/getting-started/newspapers 
Early historical newspapers
View 16th to 19th century papers from the United Kingdom and American titles.
Many titles can be accessed from home via eResources but first you will need to get a Library card.



Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 29 January 22 02:37 GMT (UK)
The item snipped for us in Reply # 338 by Maddy, mentions Forrest had seen a Marrow and Cleaver Band.
The sightings I can make of the kind of thing during the time that John was supposed to be in Australia, are mostly in Victoria.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199338951

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138671826

The Melbourne Marrow Bone band.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215230635


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Saturday 29 January 22 02:49 GMT (UK)
Sue's sighting of that cartoon re Marrow Bone Band -   phone call from my ancient living rellies who remind me that one of them still has his cleaver hanging by some plaited Ox Sinews of the Ox front leg... and it was a "Massive bone" .

Also I have added to my post re Newspapers.

ADD, tea chests,  Marrow Bone,  Kero Drum,  etc.  home made no charge amusements relied on during the Great Depression for company both for those menfolk Tramping the countryside and for children, including those who shared shoes with siblings...  (so if one pair of shoes between two siblings, turn and turn about to go to school)...

JM

 
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 29 January 22 02:59 GMT (UK)
Sorry if we have already seen this. ;)

When I landed in Sydney ..


https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/140796287?searchTerm=%22forrest%20riversdale%20cape%22~20

A friend closer than a brother? :-\
Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 29 January 22 03:33 GMT (UK)
Very good Sue.
Sydney in 1897 and Melbourne in 98. The cricket match (2nd test) he refers to started on 1 Jan 1898.
The friend? Closer than a brother? A lover?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 29 January 22 04:05 GMT (UK)
Very good Sue.
Sydney in 1897 and Melbourne in 98.
The friend? Closer than a brother? A lover?

Possibly or a casual biblical reference
https://biblehub.com/esv/proverbs/18.htm
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 29 January 22 07:42 GMT (UK)
I think John Edmund merely enjoyed somewhat florid language. In his will he described one of his beneficiaries as:
"my very dear friend and comrade in Life's Battle ... "
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91C-67B2-F?i=99&cc=2517051
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 29 January 22 09:11 GMT (UK)
Harold Austin did very well out of John's Estate. Wonder who he was?
Not surprising the name of his wife was unknown.
All very interesting - "No children" and not even a mention of the son who was still living. I think there must have been a falling out.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 29 January 22 09:16 GMT (UK)
Am I starting to  think "my partner in Life's Battle" might have been a significant other?

Such a situation might account for the way thing have unfurled in this story.

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 29 January 22 09:32 GMT (UK)
Was thinking along similar lines  :), but thought it might need some further looking at.
On first quick look, I can see a few possible Harold Austin candidates.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Saturday 29 January 22 10:01 GMT (UK)
Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Certainly a possibility.  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 30 January 22 02:45 GMT (UK)

I have no idea if this is on the right track to be the home of John FORREST at his death, but it is the closest I can locate to 4 Stephens Street in Cape Town.
It is a boutique hotel (gorgeous!) but there is mention is was once 2 houses, perhaps 4 and 5.
 
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africa/south-africa/cape-town/hotels/welgelegen-hotel/

Perhaps an enquiry on the South African board might bring forth some local knowledge.
Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 30 January 22 02:57 GMT (UK)
I wondered if 4 Stephen Street was the address of “ Arcadia” which was a nursing home or hospice. It is not too clear in the will.
He seems to have owned a large selection of adjacent land (farm) in Highbury. Was that where he lived before moving to the nursing home/ hospital?
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 30 January 22 03:51 GMT (UK)
Yes, I guess so.
An amount of seven pounds seemed due to Arcadia Private Home in the accounts of deceased.

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 01 February 22 07:58 GMT (UK)
For some reason I haven’t had forum updates for a few days so have only just seen your replies -  Glad I checked in!! Thanks again for the research- I’ll go through it all now.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 February 22 08:19 GMT (UK)
 :)

RE:  the birth cert you ordered ... any indication when it is expected to arrive?

JM.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 01 February 22 08:33 GMT (UK)
:)

RE:  the birth cert you ordered ... any indication when it is expected to arrive?

JM.

Interestingly, they keep delaying the expected completion date. Delays due to Covid or they can’t find it?!
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 01 February 22 08:40 GMT (UK)
Too many SMITHS in the FORREST perhaps.  ;D

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 01 February 22 09:11 GMT (UK)
 ;D ;D

I notice the probatesearch web page is still undergoing maintenance, says it will be back on Friday 4 Feb now. Must be the cold weather over there.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 02 February 22 03:16 GMT (UK)
Yes probably due to the cold weather and I have a feeling they can’t find him under Smith :D ..maybe I should have put in the comments field that they should try Mahon, Forest, Johnston and Johnson if they can’t find him under Smith :) They’ve just delayed the ETA again (by 5 days) so I’ve sent them an email asking for an update.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 03 February 22 04:16 GMT (UK)
Did anyone else notice on the 1920 census Edith was Head of the house but so too was a man called Bernard Rosenfeld. There are a few in the New York area. One appears to be a merchant. Other than the census I can’t find a link between the two of them.

There’s also an English K E Smith that left Hamburg on 23/08/1900 for New York- her residential address is in Philadelphia. She’s documented as Frau /wife/married and travelling without a husband.   I’m assuming this is Edith Kate.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Thursday 03 February 22 06:33 GMT (UK)
I see a departure from England for one Bernard ROSENFELD, a 50 year old merchant.
Heading for USA , his intended permanent address.

Oct 18th 1919
per Mauretania

https://www.ancestry.com.au/imageviewer/collections/2997/images/40610_B000906-00353?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=ed471f153a35437409fb33a7178b691e&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LiA35111&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=34503670

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Thursday 03 February 22 08:04 GMT (UK)
Bernard travels frequently to NY and England. His father is German and in the 1881 UK census he is an Australian  something. It’s hard to read - merchant maybe. The family live in Bevis Marks after WW1 so I assume they’re Jewish. It looks like the same address as Lazarus and Rosenfeld - merchants and manufacturers.
This maybe has nothing to do with Edith and her family..

Added: Bernard’s father left £53000 to his older brothers when he died in 
1909. A considerable sum!!

Edited. Austrian merchant makes most sense as Google search suggests that but it definitely looks like Australian

https://www.ancestry.com.au/sharing/27288536?h=effdd1
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 06 February 22 11:09 GMT (UK)
Just wanted to update this thread. I found John Edmund Smith/Forrest’s Masonic lodge records in South Africa. You can see he was recorded as Smith but his name was changed to Forrest.

Check out this record I found on the Ancestry mobile app https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/27325686?h=f12060

If he travelled from Australia to South Africa under his real name, then he left Victoria in April 1900. I can’t access the actual Victoria state records.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 06 February 22 14:53 GMT (UK)
There is a J E Smith age 44 (English) onboard “Wilcannia II” in April 1900, Melbourne to Capetown.
No sign of the boys however. Had they already gone or were they left in Australia? We know that Lewis /Lionel signed up in Africa for the military in Sept 1900.
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/26C9ECC3-F7F0-11E9-AE98-9596B02ACC12?image=395
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Sunday 06 February 22 20:02 GMT (UK)
Thanks Neale. I couldn’t view the manifest. Strange the boys were not with him given their ages.
I found another record of. J smith born 1858 (British) that left Hobart for Melbourne 27th Feb 1899
on the ship Oonah. No sign of the boys then either- if the record is his.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 06 February 22 21:20 GMT (UK)
I feel sure the "Wilcannia II" is him, but this may not have been his first voyage to Sth Af.
I wonder if he and the boys were already settled in Capetown, and John had come back to OZ for some reason, or somebody.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 07 February 22 02:02 GMT (UK)
Bear with me please … there is a reason for this lengthy entry.
I believe it has been established now that John Edmund Smith and the 2 boys arrived in Sydney in 1897, and spent some time there, probably with John’s brother, George Arthur Smith. It seems John Edmund moved on to Melbourne during 1898.

I gave some brief information about George Arthur’s son being in trouble with the Sydney Police. (Page 38 Reply #333)
More on this: 4 Feb 1898. Percival Arthur William Smith arrest warrant for being …” found habitually wandering the streets with no lawful occupation….“ “…. for truanting and staying away from home for weeks…” He had been wandering about for three weeks with two others (no names given).
His father, a commercial traveller, gave evidence against him: “ … he had been playing truant from school for 3 months; he was wandering about and would not remain at home; he had no control over him …”
There is a photo of the a dishevelled and vagabond looking Percival on the police file.

It seems likely that this would have occurred during the time that John Edmund and boys were in Sydney, and I wonder if his cousins were also involved (the 2 others mentioned?). Percival born Dec 1884 in Surrey, was just one year older than his cousin Owen Gordon Smith.

Percival Arthur William Smith was known as Percy Arthur Smith. He served in WW1 with the AIF. Private 5689 in 19th Battalion. His military file is extremely large at 88 pages. It contains his will (page 59) and information on his next of kin (older sister Margaret Moran) which confirms his identity. He died in hospital after he was discharged from the army.
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=1787193

Coincidentally, Percival Smith was also involved in the Boer war, in the same Imperial Yeomanry as Lionel / Lewis Smith.
Percy Arthur Smith, Trooper 13668 Imperial Yeomanry. His name appears on the Queens Sth Africa Medal Rolls. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find attestation or discharge dates for him.

This brings me to the story of running away to fight in the Boer War.
Do you think maybe the three boys, Percy Smith and his cousins Owen and Lionel, all ran away together? One father was away working as a commercial traveller, the other maybe off in Melbourne. Did John Edmund leave his boys in the care of his brother George?
Then Percy the older and experienced run-away talked the other two into an adventure abroad, which led them to Sth Africa and the Boer war? John Edmund finally discovered his sons’ whereabouts in 1900 and went to Cape Town to find them. However, the boys were not discharged until 1901, so John Edmund had to remain in Africa and find work there.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 07 February 22 02:47 GMT (UK)
At the National Archives of Australia, and their online index

Percy SMITH - 1902, declaration to enter South Africa.

it is not digitised, but it has been assessed and on open access since 1978.    There will be a fee to get  it digitised. Its ID number is : 418332

https://www.naa.gov.au/

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 07 February 22 03:20 GMT (UK)
What a big file! Interesting detail on his medical records and history in the army. He seemed a bit of a liability with AWOL and drunkenness. I imagine WW1 and associations with PTSD led you to this but it sounds like he took his troubles with him.
I had meant to go back to Percy’s troubled times but hadn’t - thanks for revisiting it Neale.
Your thoughts around what happened certainly seem logical to me.

JM- 1902…Interesting as that doesn’t seem to fit but the records are no doubt his.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 07 February 22 03:34 GMT (UK)
88 pages in a B2455 WWI file is not too unusual.  Some are several hundred pages and are often full of family history quality info.    The average number of pages may be around 50.  (As per a retired Archivist from the NAA  ;D )

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 07 February 22 03:39 GMT (UK)
88 pages in a B2455 WWI file is not too unusual.  Some are several hundred pages and are often full of family history quality info.    The average number of pages may be around 50.  (As per a retired Archivist from the NAA  ;D )

JM


Thanks JM. I have several relatives that fought in WW1 or 2 and I’ve never come across detail like this. Maybe it’s the quality of the Australian Archives or I haven’t known where to look in the British archives. Thanks. I’m learning a lot during this process.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 07 February 22 03:49 GMT (UK)
The NZ ones are very detailed in comparison to the United Kingdom.  But I think the Australian ones for those who served in the Army are simply the very best.     

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Monday 07 February 22 04:26 GMT (UK)
I have never sighted Ida TENDRALL EDIT- TENDELL after her recorded marriage to Geo Arthur.

So we do not know how long she remained in the marriage, but with her husband absent as a traveler and the possible other things going on, it may have not been a long union.
I see no births to the couple.
 
I have small references to her father Edward James, but see nothing of the woman she names as her mother , Flora.

Percy tried to work as a conductor on the tramways but was discharged after a short time for drinking on the job.

I will seek out the link again.

Sue

Adding: the link-
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=INDEX2157221&context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&search_scope=Everything&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=default_tab&query=any,contains,percival%20smith&offset=60
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Monday 07 February 22 07:08 GMT (UK)
I like Neale's scenario very much.
However, I have other thoughts but no records to support my ideas!

The father John Edmund in my opinion was a man who respected and valued education.
He was academic and literary by inclination and occupation, though not altogether an honest man.

From some life happenings we can see his sons were well-educated, one ( Lionel) artistic pursuing an interest in sculpture and assigned to learning from a prominent man of the time in N Z.

The other ,though apparently a little  unstable, was a very competent writer of letters amongst other things. ::)

It seems to me that a strong education for these boys was gained somewhere along the early part of John's being away from England and I wonder if he was financially able to enroll them at boarding schools in Sydney or Melbourne.

It is hard to imagine he would go to the lengths he did to get them to Australia, only to abandon them to a travelling brother and his possibly present (or not) wife. 

These  are only impressions and thoughts and possibly completely irrelevant.
Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Monday 07 February 22 07:27 GMT (UK)
Thanks Sue. I agree John and the two boys appear well educated and boarding school is a logical option. Although it’s hard to know where they were and for how long to have been enrolled in schooling. I think it’s interesting that he used the name Smith when he was in Australia and also for the first year or two in South Africa.
Speculation is good. It’s a pathway to investigate!

George died in 1910. Other than his  marriage to Ida in 1893, I don’t have much on her either.
George’s divorce was finalised in 1892 in London. He was give custody but would have needed permission to leave England with his 3 children. Wonder if he did?


Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Monday 07 February 22 07:31 GMT (UK)
Yes I agree Sue. John Edmund appears to have been a well-educated and very cultured man, and would want the same for his sons. I had not thought of a Sydney boarding school, but it would make sense, given what we know of the family now.
Percival’s police record states that he was well schooled. He had been at Forde Fort St School and kept running away, and was then sent to the industrial school which he liked no better, and ran away from too.

I can imagine teenage lads, Percy and Owen hatching a plan to run away, and egging each other on. Percy had the street smart by then to know how to fend for himself. Lionel was too young to do anything but just tag along.


A bit more on Percy - fined for being drunk
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/99631074?searchTerm=%22percival%20arthur%20Smith%22
Edited to delete incorrect entry
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Monday 07 February 22 07:41 GMT (UK)
Has any thought been directed to considering a family connection back via JE Smith's mothers FORREST family to the FORREST family of Western Australia ....  as in the then Premier of W.A.  1890s ....

Sydney 1890s -  an over supply of private tutors  could be found among :
Remittance men
Graduates of Sydney Uni
Older Classically trained 'teachers' unwilling or unable to cope with large classes sizes in the new secular compulsory school system...

I see quality speculations in both well presented speculations from Neale and Sue.   I can put those dots in straight lines, but cannot find pencil sharp enough to join them up.  8)

JM
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 08 February 22 02:25 GMT (UK)
I have never sighted Ida TENDRALL EDIT- TENDELL after her recorded marriage to Geo Arthur.

So we do not know how long she remained in the marriage, but with her husband absent as a traveler and the possible other things going on, it may have not been a long union.
I see no births to the couple.
 
I have small references to her father Edward James, but see nothing of the woman she names as her mother , Flora.


There is an Ida SMITH married Paul SCHREITERER in Sydney in 1895. She died 19 Mar 1953 (aged 80) and on the index her parents are James and Flora. (2742/1953)

There is quite a bit about the family on trove - from the unfortunate death of the young son in 1911, and a bombing of the family home in 1917.  :o

Modified to add:
A description of the wedding here:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108068050

It does say "Miss Ida Smith, lately of Melbourne" and her bridesmaid was "Miss Amy Smith" though it doesn't say "sister". She was given away by "Mr Clarence Bridge".

So ... a possibility for Ida, but not necessarily correct.  :-\
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 08 February 22 02:41 GMT (UK)
Actually, just found the marriage register (St Peter's Woolloomooloo, 19 Jan 1895), and it says her parents: James SMITH and Florence GREEN (I think), and born Melbourne. Though I can't see an equivalent birth in Victoria.

It also says she was aged 20 and consent was given by a guardian: Charles Harl Tomley PULHAM ( I think).

So possibly I'm on completely wrong track.

Modified to add:
I meant to add, I like the theories! Especially linking the Boer War, looks very promising.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 08 February 22 05:33 GMT (UK)
Thanks Maddy. I have Ida’s maiden name as Tindell. Although ‘mine’ might not be right.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 08 February 22 05:46 GMT (UK)
Florence Eileen HAVENSTEIN was George's daughter and likely she who placed his death notice and very probably she who completed the details for his Death Certificate.

I think she would have known the marital status of her father in 1910 and that document might be the only way to ascertain whether divorced, widowed.

This is maybe not be top of the list for Arnside98 ;D
But a matter of curiosity just the same

My suspicion is Ida wandered off and perhaps  partnered with another man whose name she took.
A recalcitrant stepson may have been too much for her
Sue

ADDING, from the original marriage cert of the couple, Flora her mother was nee WILLIAMS.
Her father she states as Edward James TINDELL, grazier.

There does seem to be a man of that name with possibly a brother or other family member in the livestock business in NSW. at the time.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: majm on Tuesday 08 February 22 06:02 GMT (UK)
Divorce 1890s   England & Wales.  Custody of the childten...

I may be wrong, but ...

Anyway,  the parent awarded custody would have total control, the other parent would be the "guilty" parent, and no longer part of the family. 

The childten of the marriage , while still minors, were the direct responsibility of the "injured" person to whom the divorce was granted. 

They would be free to move their family anywhere, particularly anywhere overseas within the British Empire, no need to ask permission from the courts or from the "guilty" former spouse.

There was no obligation on the custodial parent to encourage the children to associate with people who had such low morals as  deserting their  children or indulging their base emotions in criminal intercourse or ..... 

Also British passports came about in 1914,  basically to monitor for males seeking to avoid WWI service so until WWI British Subjects without much of a paper trail  could go "anywhere"  because the British Empire was at its zenith ... The Sun never set on the Union Jack.

I will get the ancient rellies onto the TINDELL grazier NSW scene.  Could be the weekend, they are busy at the moment.


JM.




Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 08 February 22 06:38 GMT (UK)
You're absolutely correct that Ida gives her maiden name as TINDALL. As Sue said, there does appear to be an E J TINDALL in Bylong, in fact lots of TINDALL/TINDELL/TINDALE variations at Bylong.

I was merely wondering what happened to her after the original marriage. If there was no divorce, she may have "created" new maiden name on a subsequent marriage. Just speculation ...
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 08 February 22 07:16 GMT (UK)
I am not completely sure, but I think this well could be your George Arthur SMITH-

This event only months before his marriage to Ida.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113732301
 
Evening News  Sydney . Fri 10 Mar 1893.

Elizabeth Batchelder, a widow, living in Botany-street, said she knew Mr. Gollop, and now identified her photograph. Mrs. Gollop lived with a person, represented as her husband, and called himself Mr. Gollop. It was not the petitioner. , Mrs. Gertrude Mayne said that Mrs.Gollop ; also lived with her. Mr. Geo. Smith, a commercial traveller for C. E. .Light and Company, of London, used to call frequently upon the respondent. It was Mr. Smith who lived as Mr.Gollop .....


Do we know the company your George travelled for when he left London?

Further snips on the matter
 
This gives  gives the middle initial as A- George A Smith.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/235954708

Sue

ADDING
There is mention of a photograph of someone in the passagee above, but I am unclear as to whose photo it is.
However, I think it can be viewed through here.

https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=ADLIB_RNSW111186221&context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&search_scope=Everything&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=default_tab&query=any,contains,gollop&offset=0
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 08 February 22 08:52 GMT (UK)
Great find - again. I see Eliza Jane’s husband (William Henry) deserted her in 1886 and was fined 10 shillings per week for 12 months.

I have looked at paying to view documents you have all linked but they are pricey/add up. AU$30-$50
each. Might come back to them. I’m still waiting on the UK birth certificate…. I almost wouldn’t be surprised if it was from Perth or Texas now !
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 08 February 22 08:59 GMT (UK)
If you are interested in the divorce papers of the GOLLOPS, there is a very kind RootsChatter - rosball - who regularly goes to the Western Sydney Records Centre to photograph files for others. See this thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011



Do we know the company your George travelled for when he left London?





I think we only know that he says "traveller booksellers" when he's at Guy's Hosptial for the 1881 census. Unless Arnside has any further info from the divorce in England?  :)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Tuesday 08 February 22 09:15 GMT (UK)
On his marriage certificate is is a stationers assistant. On the divorce paperwork he is a stationer. I’ll have a look in the directories.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 08 February 22 09:15 GMT (UK)
Actually, I forgot that cupoflife suggested Ros might photograph the probate packets for George Arthur SMITH, back on page 8 :

This file may be worth checking... could contain death certificate and other valuable information.
SMITH George Arthur
Intestate Estates Index 1821-1913
File No: 89 | Previous System No: [10/27838] | District/Locality: Petersham | Date of Order: 1910
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX75451
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/permalink/f/1ebnd1l/INDEX88690

If you are unable to visit the NSW archives, you could put a request for Rootschatter Rosball to kindly copy this file next time she is at the archives. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=703011.0
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 08 February 22 09:53 GMT (UK)
I could be wrong, but I don't think the GOLLOP divorce case does involve your George Arthur SMITH. There is an item in 1888 asking George SMITH, representing C and R Light of London, to call the Argus. This is before your George came to Australia I think.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article6121542 (first column)

Also I think C and R Light of London were furniture makers.  :) (Charles and Richard LIGHT)
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Neale1961 on Tuesday 08 February 22 10:00 GMT (UK)
In the NSW police Gazettes in 1886, 1887 and 1888, there are arrest warrants issued for William Henry Gollop for deserting his wife Eliza Jane Gollop.
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: sparrett on Tuesday 08 February 22 10:28 GMT (UK)
MMmmm... Well I was not at all certain in the first place.

So a complete red herring probably ::)

Sue
Title: Re: Missing family on ionic ship 1897
Post by: Arnside98 on Wednesday 09 February 22 17:51 GMT (UK)
I was looking for a Harold Austin that was listed in John’s will. I’m not sure if I have the right person but there is a Harold Austin that was a member of the BSA Police force. He travelled between South Africa and England a lot. He was married to a Margaruite/Margied/Margaret who died in Rhodesia. This Harold was born in 1893 (a little younger than his sons). Seems strange that he would be the main benefactor unless he was in some ways related …
Could be the wrong person altogether. I haven’t found many records on him - of course Harold Austin might not be his original name.