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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: karencda on Thursday 28 April 22 22:44 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I live in Canada and am unable to attend at the LMA to obtain copies of Foundling Hospital records, if any, relating to Herbert DAY, dob April 1, 1897.
I recently found out that my relative, Herbert DAY, grew up at the Foundling Hospital, London, between 1898 and 1913. Coram (as the Foundling Hospital is now known) advised me that Frederick William BURNARD, born April 1, 1897, was successfully placed by his mother, Amy E. BURNARD, with the Foundling Hospital at ten months of age. The Foundling Hospital gave him the new name Herbert DAY. I have found the baptism record for Frederick William BURNARD and his father's name is not noted (Christ Church London, May 16, 1897).
I am trying to get more information about Herbert DAY (born April 1, 1897 as Frederick William BURNARD) from the Foundling Hospital records, including documents contained in the General Register 6 and Apprenticeship Register, located at the LMA. The documents are located here:
A/FH/A/09/002/006 - General Register 6 (Nos 21813-24855) 1881 Jan-1950 Dec
A/FH/A/12/003/004 - Apprenticeship Register (No. 4) 1892 Feb-1932 Sep
Apparently, his mother's petition for admission is not available, as it is currently being digitized. It is located here:
A/FH/A/08/001/002/106 - Petitions: Admitted (Nos 22520-22567) 1897
I am also trying to find any reference to his birth father, who is currently unknown. Any tips for searching for a birth father would also be appreciated!
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If no fathers name is shown on his birth cert - you would have to try DNA
Birth reg - June qtr 1897 Frederick William Burnard Pancras 1b 72
The 1901 census shows him as a boarder with William & Jessie Hutson but in 1911 he is at the Foundling hospital
Amy Elizabeth Burnard married Lawrence Batten Ridgers 12.2.1905
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Thank you for your reply.
Yes, Coram advised me that the Foundling Hospital placed Herbert DAY with Jessie HUTSON and family in East Peckham, Kent, for the first five years of his life. At approximately age five, he was then returned to the Foundling Hospital, London, where he lived and went to school until 1913. I am looking for any records of his time with the Foundling Hospital between 1898 and 1913.
I am hoping that someone who lives close to or regularly visits the LMA might be able to copy Herbert DAY's Foundling Hospital records for me (located at the LMA at the links I provided, above). As I live in Canada, I am not able to visit the LMA in person.
I am still searching for more information about Herbert DAY's (Frederick William BURNARD's) birth mother, Amy E. BURNARD, and his birth father, name unknown. I have not yet confirmed that the Amy E. BURNARD who married Laurence Batton RIDGERS is his birth mother. The personal information I have, which may or may not be correct, is that Herbert DAY's (Frederick William BURNARD's) birth mother, Amy E. BURNARD, later married his birth father.
Thank you in advance to anyone who is able to locate the LMA records for me!
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Amy was 13yrs old when the child was born in 1897. She was old enough to have married the father from approx 1901 but didn’t marry until 1905. Whether she married her childs father is an unknown & would only be determined by DNA
There are a number of children born to the Ridgers/Burnard marriage
Elsie May 1906
Arthur Ernest 1908
Edith May 1912
Doris Ivy 1914
Ronald B 1925 died 1982
L R ……. B 1929 - no death found so name cannot be shown
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I am looking for any records of his time with the Foundling Hospital between 1898 and 1913.
According to the LMA's guidance on accessing Foundling Hospital records:
"In the interest of protecting the confidentiality of living individuals some documents will not be
available to public access. Documents in this collection are closed for a period of 110 years from the
last date in the register".
So if the last register date for Frederick William is indeed 1913, his LMA records won't be available to access until next year.
As for the Apprenticeship Registers - "the original records are unavailable for consultation and are part of the digitisation project". For children apprenticed 1751-1891 their records are on microfilm.
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Thank you. That is interesting. It is my understanding I am able to find these records on microfilm. The LMA replied to my specific inquiry (which included relevant name, dates...) as follows:
...We can confirm that we hold the records of the Foundling Hospital (A/FH).
Some of this collection is currently unavailable for us to access due to a digitisation project. Unfortunately, this includes the petitions for admission A/FH/A/08/001/002/106 - Petitions: Admitted (Nos 22520-22567) 1897...
However, we can currently access the following documents on your behalf via our Print from Microfilm service which is charged at £8.33 for up to two printouts.
A/FH/A/09/002/006 - General Register 6 (Nos 21813-24855) 1881 Jan-1950 Dec
A/FH/A/12/003/004 - Apprenticeship Register (No. 4) 1892 Feb-1932 Sep
These records are unlikely to reveal any further information on the birth parents but may have other helpful details...
I am hoping that someone who visits the LMA regularly could copy the records from microfilm. (Note: The LMA does not have a secure payment system, they have simply asked me to write down my credit card details on a form to email to them, which I am not keen to do :))
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As regards the mother Amy Burnard, this lady is a good fit, considering the address on Frederick William's baptism is 59 Aldenham Street (St Pancras):
1891 census - Ossulston Street, St Pancras (a stone's throw from Aldenham Street)
Amy Burnard
Born 1878 Lambeth
She's living with her widowed father William T Burnard (Brewers Drayman), and two siblings (Phoebe, age 21 and Frederick, age 11), and a relative named Emma Wren.
In 1901, it appears Amy's a domestic servant in Wood Green, Tottenham. She's in the employ of widowed Abraham I Drapkin (age 40). He's an Export Merchant, and a Naturalised British Subject from Russia.
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The LMA does not have a secure payment system, they have simply asked me to write down my credit card details on a form to email to them, which I am not keen to do :))
Why don't you buy a Visa gift card (etc) and use that, instead of your credit card?
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Thank you so much for this! This does seem to be a good fit. I will pursue this line further.
Also, thank you for the VISA card suggestion which is a great idea.
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Many years ago the LMA provided me with a Coroner's Inquest report, and I paid with a cheque.
But I live in England, so it was a very smooth transaction.
As for Amy, you can follow her pretty easily in other records. Do you have an Ancestry or FindMyPast sub?
Or do you use (free) Family Search?
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I do not have any subscription services. I am able to access Ancestry.com from the library, but don't get there very often.
Any additional information would be appreciated!
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Use Family Search - which is free. Just register for a free account. All you need to do is create a User Name and password. That's it. Link: www.FamilySearch.org
1881 census - King Street, Lambeth
Amy Burnard
Born 1878 - Southwark
Living with Elizabeth Wren (age 64), and family members Frederick (age 1) and Ellen (age 0).
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Baptism for Amy below. The actual image can be viewed on Family Search.
Here is the FS link to the image: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96Y-J6XH?i=775&cc=2475028
Name: Amy Elizabeth Burnard
Event Date: 3 Feb 1878
Event Place (Original): St. Andrew, Lambeth, Surrey, England
Father's Name: William Thomas Burnard
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Burnard
As Dundee pointed out yesterday, your Amy Elizabeth married Henry Alfred Stone in 1904.
1911 census - Southgate, Middlesex
Amy Elizabeth Stone (age 32, born Lambeth)
Henry Alfred Stone (age 40, born Middlesex, carman for coal merchants)
Henry Alfred William Stone (age 3, born Middlesex)
STONE, ALFRED HENRY WILLIAM Mother's maiden name: BARNARD
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 631
STONE, NELLIE AMY Mother's maiden name: BURNARD
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 643
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I must be losing the plot - I thought I read that Amy was only 13yrs old when she gave birth - shoot me now🤣🤣
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There were 2 Amy Elizabeth Burnard's - one born Mar. qtr. 1878 Lambeth (as detailed by Hillhurst) and the one born Sept.qtr.1883 Greenwich (which is the one you are referring to). The latter married Laurence Batton Ridgers in 1905.
The one born 1878 was the daughter of a William Thomas Burnard and wife Elizabeth. She married a Henry Alfred Stone 31/7/1904 St. Thomas, Lambeth. Surname listed as Barnard but she has signed as Burnard. A daughter Nellie Amy born and died 1906 - mmn Burnard - and a son Alfred Henry William in 1908 (listed as Henry Alfred William in 1911) - mmn Barnard (?).
So, was it really a 13 year old who gave birth 1897? Or was it the 19 year old who married Henry Alfred Stone in 1904?
My money would be on the latter.
Annette
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Based on the address scenario I outlined earlier (reply #6), I believe the mother is the AEB born 1878 Lambeth. She appears to be the lady who married HA Stone in 1904.
So it sounds like the OP had the wrong AEB, born 1882 Greenwich. She married the Ridgers chap.
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I must be losing the plot - I thought I read that Amy was only 13yrs old when she gave birth - shoot me now🤣🤣
You're not! OP referred to marriage to Laurence Ridgers in 1905 and that was the Amy born 1884!
Annette
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Yes, thank you, that makes much more sense! I do not have access to any ancestry subscription sites and am struggling to put the pieces together. I only recently discovered that Herbert Day was actually Frederick William Burnard, born to Amy E. Burnard, and that he was a Foundling Hospital child. Things are moving quickly.
So, I am now pursuing Amy Burnard, born in 1878 in Lambeth, as the birth mother of Frederick William Burnard, born April 1, 1897. I apologize for my rookie mistake in pursuing the other Amy Burnard.
In 1897, Amy Burnard gives birth to Frederick William Burnard. The baptism record shows she is living at 59 Aldenham Street and is employed as a Domestic Servant. In 1898, she places Frederick William Burnard with the Foundling Hospital. 1901 census records show that Amy Burnard (born in 1878) is working as a domestic servant in Wood Green, Tottenham, in the employ of widowed Abraham I Drapkin (age 40). He's an Export Merchant, and a Naturalised British Subject from Russia. In 1904, Amy marries Henry Alfred Stone.
So, I am now trying to piece together Amy's husband's history. Where was Henry Alfred Stone living prior to 1904? Was he living close to Amy Burnard in or around 1896 (when Frederick William Burnard was conceived)? In the absence of any documentation naming a birth father, I am trying to narrow down the possibilities. Her employer could be the next best guess. What happened to Amy and Henry after 1904?
Thank you for your patience and your assistance!
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What happened to Amy and Henry after 1904?
See my reply #12 for the family in the 1911 census, etc.
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I don't have Ancestry or FindMyPast subs, so unable to view the 1904 marriage record, if its online.
This would give you the husband's father and his occupation, to confirm HAS prior to 1911 census.
You really need to confirm WAS father's name so that you don't go down any rabbit holes.
One possibility for HAS in 1901 is this chap below. He has a sister named Nellie (same name as Amy Elizabeth's daughter born 1906).
1901 census - Clarence Road, Wood Green.
Name Henry Stone
Age 27
Event Place Wood Green, Middlesex
Sub-District Tottenham
Registration District Edmonton
Birth Year (Estimated) 1874
Birthplace Wood Green, Middlesex
Marital Status Single
Occupation FISHMONGER
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1878 sounds a far more realistic birthdate. I did wonder how a 13yr old had managed to keep him for 10mths.
It must have been heartbreaking for Amy to part with him after 10mths. Her life must have been very difficult
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Yes, the whole situation is very sad.
I have done a bit of research about the Foundling Hospital. It appears that Amy would not have had any contact with her son after placing him there. Apparently, letters written by mothers to their children at the FH were acknowledged with a form letter advising them simply that their child was doing well.
I imagine Herbert's foster mother, Jessie Reading Hutson, felt similarly when she had to return Herbert to the FH at age five. She had a daughter, Honoria ("Norah"), who was about the same age at Herbert. It is possible Jessie Hutson might have visited Herbert at the FH, once each year during the annual foster mother visit day, although I have not been able to confirm this annual event happened during Herbert's time at the FH. Strangely, Herbert named his foster parents as his relations on his marriage certificate. I do not know how he obtained their names, nor do I know exactly what paperwork the FH gave him when he left in 1913.
The FH advised me they have a notation on file that Herbert was "re-introduced" to his birth mother, Amy, in 1919. I do not have any further details and am unable to see the record.
Herbert never spoke to his children about his history prior to emigrating to Canada in 1913, apart from stating he was an orphan.
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Here are the 1904 marriage details
31 July 1904 St Thomas, Lambeth
Henry Alfred Stone 32 - bachelor - occ -carman-5 Lambeth Sq - father also Henry Alfred occ coal porter
Amy Elizabeth (Barnard) Burnard 26 - spinster - 15 Lambeth Sq - father William Thomas occ carman
Witnesses George Joseph ?? Hanbury & Sarah Stone
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Carole - thanks for the 1904 marriage details. The HAS (fishmonger) I found in 1901 in Wood Green is living with his parents, and the father Henry was a coal porter, if memory serves.
Fast forward to 1921: the Stone family are still living in Southgate, Edmonton. HAS, Amy, Alfred and 1 other person (not named). You'd need to purchase the record to see who that person is, if its of interest to you.
Henry A Stone
Born 1871
Birth place Wood Green, Middlesex
Amy E Stone
Born 1879
Birth place Lambeth, London
Alfred Stone
Born 1908
Birth place New Southgate, Middlesex
This is probably the son in the 1939 Register:
Alfred H W Stone
Born 1907
Address 12 Alexandra Road, Southgate, Middlesex
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Wow, you are all very efficient at finding this information! Thank you! I am doing my best to work through Family Search.
Am I correct that it's fairly certain that the Henry Stone, age 27, living in Wood Green, Middlesex in 1901, is the same Henry Stone who married Amy Burnard in 1904? Henry Stone appears to have lived in Wood Green, Middlesex from the time of his birth. Is it reasonable to conclude that this Henry A. Stone (born 1871) of Wood Green, Middlesex was possibly acquainted with Amy E. Burnard (born 1878), who was living at 59 Aldenham Street, Wood Green, Middlesex at the time of Frederick William Burnard's (Herbert Day's) birth in April 1897? While I acknowledge DNA testing is the only way to know for sure, I am satisfied with the possibility he could be Frederick William Burnard's (Herbert Day's) birth father. I am curious to know of any possible explanations as to why Amy and Henry could not have married sooner, if this was the case.
Thank you also for tracking down the Stone family after 1904. Has anyone found a reference to dates of death for Amy and Henry?
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Is it reasonable to conclude that this Henry A. Stone (born 1871) of Wood Green was possibly acquainted with Amy E. Burnard (born 1878), who was living at 59 Aldenham Street, Wood Green at the time of Frederick William Burnard's (Herbert Day's) birth in April 1897?
Has anyone found a reference to dates of death for Amy and Henry?
Aldenham Street is located in St Pancras (not Wood Green, Tottenham). Remember, she was living in St Pancras during the 1891 census at Ossulston Street.
Amy probably met HAS c1901 when she was working as a domestic servant at the Drapkin residence in Wood Green. I don't see any obvious St Pancras connections for HAS.
I would strongly consider that anyone could've been the father of Frederick William. DNA is probably your best route, if he has any living descendants.
I know you don't have an Ancestry sub, but I see quite a few London Workhouse Admission & Discharge records for someone named Amy Burnard/Bernard. As well as London Poor Law Hospital Admission & Discharge records.
Perhaps a forum member here (with Ancestry access) can have quick peek to confirm if it's your lady. It's certainly plausible, as so many unmarried women did give birth in workhouses.
One big advantage of workhouse records is (usually) a note of home addresses and/or occupations for the women being admitted. And the discharge records sometimes indicate helpful details, as well. So if the Amy Burnard/Bernard in the workhouse records is your lady, the records may indicate where she was living (or staying) at the time. Always a big plus for tracing people between census report years! :)
You can search FreeBMD for the Stone death registrations, whenever they occurred.
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Workhouse records on Ancestry
Amy Burnard/Bernard born 1883/84
1921 census
George Comley 1906 New Southgate is other person in household with Stone family
Preview says George, Henry A ,Amy E and one other are on this record
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Regarding the workhouse records, when I started my search on Ancestry at the library a few weeks ago, I found a series of Greenwich Union Infirmary admissions and discharges in September and October 1904, around the time the other Amy gave birth to her son, Laurence Richard Ridgers. That Amy's address was 63 Trundleys Road and she was a housekeeper to the family noted above her on the admission record. I'm pretty sure all the workhouse/infirmary admissions for Amy Burnard related to the other Amy (born 1883), but I will have to go back to the library next week to check Ancestry.
If anyone has access to Ancestry to confirm whether the "correct" Amy (born 1878) also had workhouse admissions (potentially around the time of the birth of Frederick William Burnard, April 1, 1897), I would appreciate it!
In 1897, Amy was living at 59 Aldenham Street, St. Pancras (per the baptism certificate of Frederick William Burnard). I am trying to determine what was at this location. Is there a way to reverse search for an address to determine who else resided there at that time?
I do not believe Amy's family moved, as the Registers of Electors for 1897 through at least 1902 continue to show William T. Burnard (Amy's father) residing on Ossulston Street, where Amy lived with her family in 1891.
The 1896 and 1897 Register of Electors show Abraham Drapkin living at 37 Northwold Road. The Aldenham/Ossulston (Amy/Amy's family) addresses and the Northwold address (employer Abraham) are quite a distance apart, so, although possible, I don't think Amy worked for Abraham Drapkin at the time she gave birth to Frederick in 1897 (unless I am missing something, which could be the case!) The 1899 Register of Electors shows Abraham living at Clarion-villa, Wood Green, N. I am trying to narrow down the date when Amy went to work for him, prior to 1901.
By 1901, Amy lived in Wood Green, Middlesex (at the home of Abraham Drapkin). I can only view the summary information, which does not include a street address. Can anyone see the full street address for Abraham Drapkin/Amy Burnard in 1901?
In 1901, Henry Stone was living on Clarence Road, Wood Green (with his parents and siblings) (for some reason, I can see his street address on the summary). I am trying to get a sense of the distance between Amy's location in Wood Green and Henry's location on Clarence Road, Wood Green.
Any further tips would be appreciated, thanks!
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Electoral records for 1897 show Lewis Alexander Cox residing at 59 Aldenham St., the same address Amy noted on Frederick's baptism certificate as her residence as a domestic servant. So, I now believe Amy was working for Lewis and his family prior to giving birth.
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The FH advised me they have a notation on file that Herbert was "re-introduced" to his birth mother, Amy, in 1919. I do not have any further details and am unable to see the record.
Just peeking at this thread but just wondered how the above happened - was the re-introduction in person or by post. If the former one or other of Amy or Herbert must have travelled the Atlantic.
Pheno
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Pheno, you are correct - there was an Atlantic crossing! Herbert served in the Canadian Expeditionary Force in WW1. He was in Kinmel Park Camp, Wales by January 1919, waiting to be returned to Canada. He did not sail back to Canada until June 1919 (military records indicate he was injured in the March 1919 Kinmel Park riot). Perhaps he visited London while on leave?
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Ref Ancestry Workhouse Admissions. Just doing this in lunch break :o Will this do for starters? Amy has been filtered to this list.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60391/?name=amy_burnard&birth=1878&count=50
Amy Burnard
abt 1883 5 Oct 1894 Islington, Islington 1 Nov 1894
Amy Burnard
abt 1883 5 Oct 1894 Islington, Islington
Amy Burnard
abt 1883 29 Sep 1904 Greenwich, Greenwich
View Record
Amy Burnard
abt 1883 Sep 1904
Amy Burnard
abt 1883 28 Oct 1904 Greenwich, Greenwich
Amy Burnard
abt 1883 28 Oct 1904
Amy Bernard
1883 23 Nov 1885 Tower Hamlets, Stepney
Amy Bernard
1883 28 Nov 1885
Amy Bernard
1883 20 Mar 1886 Tower Hamlets, Stepney
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Copper1, thank you! Looking at your search results, it seems that Amy born 1878 was not admitted to a workhouse.
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Recap and more questions for those who can access subscriptions:
Amy E. Burnard (born 1878) married Henry Stone in 1904, Lambeth. Their daughter, Nellie Amy Stone, born in 1906, Edmonton, died that same year. Their son, Alfred H. W. Stone, was born in 1907, Edmonton. Did Amy and Henry have any other children after Alfred?
In 1921, Amy, Henry, and Alfred Stone were living in Southgate, Edmonton. George Comley, born in 1906, New Southgate was also living with them. Who was George?
I believe Alfred Stone (born 1907) married Mary M. Freeman, in 1931, Edmonton. The 1939 Register shows Alfred H. W. Stone residing at 12 Alexandra Road, Southgate, Middlesex. Did Alfred and Mary have any children?
I am also hoping to find more information about Herbert’s foster sister, Honoria Hutson (“Norah”). Norah Hutson, born in 1897, East Peckham, Kent, married Harry Tripp and emigrated to Australia.
Thank you for your assistance.
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Even though you don't have paid subscriptions, you can still find out various details for free, which is what a lot of us do here. :)
1921 census indicates the birthplace for George Comley (born 1906) was New Southgate, Middlesex.
Using that info, you should be able to find George in the 1911 census (using free Family Search).
In 1911, there is a George Edwin Albert Comley (born 1907) living in Southgate. This George (age 4) is residing with his grandparents: Charles and Mary Hanna Comley.
Checking the online GRO index, GEA Comley was born in 1906 (Edmonton) MMN: Palmer.
If you're curious as to why George Comley is residing with the Stone family in 1921, you'd need to purchase the record on FindMyPast. It could be that he's just a lodger, and not a relative.
FreeBMD is a good tool to use. From 1912 onwards, births will indicate the mothers' maiden name.
I see four Stone/Freeman births in Edmonton (from 1932 to 1949) which may be of interest to you.
Bear in mind the RC policy about not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living.
FreeBMD should help you with confirming the Tripp/Hutson births, if they were born in England (not Oz).
Have you ever ordered BMD certificates from the GRO? If so, you can search the online GRO Index (for free) to ascertain mothers' maiden names (in birth records) prior to 1912. If you haven't ordered from the GRO before, you can register for free and search their birth and death indexes.
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Hillhurst, thank you so much for this. It is taking me some time to figure out how to most effectively use each of the free sites - I am getting better, and your tips are very helpful! I have registered on GRO to order a birth certificate and will have a look at the free search functions the GRO offers as well. I have also signed up for some geneology courses with my local organization. Learning so much so quickly about Herbert's early life has been quite an experience for me.
I hope I have complied with the site rules regarding privacy of individuals . Please let me know if I have posted or requested any information that I should not have (or report to moderator if appropriate).
I will be at the library over the weekend using Ancestry, so I should be able to see the census record and confirm George Comley's relationship to the Stone family in 1921.
I am fairly certain that Norah Hutson and Harry Tripp's children were born in Australia, after emigrating, based on letters Norah wrote enclosing photos. How Herbert and Norah were able to reconnect and correspond is another mystery I am hoping to piece together, given that they were both approximately age five when Herbert was returned to the Foundling Hospital. I haven't yet started searching Australian records so if anyone has some advice on how to best start my search there, please let me know.
Thanks again everyone for pointing me in the right direction and for filling in the gaps :)
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Free 1921 search for
George Comley b1906, relationship to head boarder , brings up only the one entry in Southgate already found.
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Here is an update on what I've discovered.
I have received Frederick William Burnard's birth certificate from the GRO. As suspected, his father's name is absent. Perhaps the Foundling Hospital Petition for Admission will contain his birth father's name; unfortunately, this document will not be available until the digitization is completed in 2024.
I have discovered that the Lewis Cox family at 59 Aldenham, where Amy lived and worked when she gave birth to Frederick William Burnard in 1897, has another connection to the Burnard family. Amy's younger brother, Frederick Charles Burnard, married Lewis Cox's daughter, Lily Cox, in 1899. Frederick and Lily then moved to 59 Aldenham with their young family a few years later and appeared to reside there for many years.
I am still curious to know where Amy raised Frederick William Burnard over the course of 10 months before she placed him with the Foundling Hospital (is it likely she would have remained at 59 Aldenham to work and raise her child?) I am also curious to know how Amy came to work for Abraham Drapnik, in a different part of London, by 1901. Both questions very difficult to answer!
Finally, I am still hoping someone who regularly visits the LMA can have a look at the registers noted at the beginning of this post to see if there is a page in the Foundling Hospital General Register with information for Herbert Day and, less likely, a page in the Apprenticeship Register (Herbert did not apprentice, but instead emigrated to Canada, so he may not be listed here).
Thanks again everyone :)