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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 21:44 BST (UK)

Title: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 21:44 BST (UK)
Hi All
        Looking for infomation on John Valente (Goivanni) changed his name on the Census we Believe he was born in Italy in 22 feb 1875 married Margaret Taylor born 16 Aug 1886 and Married Johann Valente as this is the only one I can Find in1911 with his Daughter mary Valente born in 1917
any help
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 04 May 22 21:54 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:01 BST (UK)
Lancs BMD Marriage http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
1911 Manchester Registry Office or Registrar attended
Johann Valente and Margaret Taylor

Free BMD shows the marriage in March quarter
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:14 BST (UK)
So if Annie was Margaret then they told a little fib on the 1911, maybe because they had already had a child. 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:18 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

the last one i believe is the right one as i got a address of his daughter wedding 1939 cert and found them at the same address with john Valente crossed out John and Giovanni wrote in
I found a Johann Valente Married a Margaret Taylor in Manchester 1911 sent of for Wedding Cert
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:22 BST (UK)
So if Annie was Margaret then they told a little fib on the 1911, maybe because they had already had a child.

I Got a Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente I think the spelling Mistake so sent off for a Wedding Cert

In the 1939 Census I got them living in 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton and Married John and Margaret with children
Joseph F
Margaret
Teresa
Kathleen
Mary Not at Address as She would have been living with harold Ellis married in 1939
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:26 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Valente married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:27 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

the last one i believe is the right one as i got a address of his daughter wedding 1939 cert and found them at the same address with john Valente crossed out John and Giovanni wrote in
I found a Johann Valente Married a Margaret Taylor in Manchester 1911 sent of for Wedding Cert

Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Valente married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:27 BST (UK)
So if Annie was Margaret then they told a little fib on the 1911, maybe because they had already had a child.

I Got a Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente I think the spelling Mistake so sent off for a Wedding Cert

In the 1939 Census I got them living in 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton and Married John and Margaret with children
Joseph F
Margaret
Teresa
Kathleen
Mary Not at Address as She would have been living with harold Ellis married in 1939

Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Taylor married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:28 BST (UK)
Lancs BMD Marriage http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
1911 Manchester Registry Office or Registrar attended
Johann Valente and Margaret Taylor

Free BMD shows the marriage in March quarter
Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Valente married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:29 BST (UK)
Who was Mary Taylor?  Sister to Margaret? 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:30 BST (UK)
Margaret Taylor
B:16 Aug 1886 England
D:17 Nov 1968 England

Looking for a link to John Valente Wife cant find a birth or parents
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:31 BST (UK)
Who was Mary Taylor?  Sister to Margaret?

So Sorry meant Mary Valente
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Radcliff on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:32 BST (UK)
St Michael Ancoats
24th Feb 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaritam Taylor
Grooms parents Henerici Valenti and Catherinae Della Torre
Brides parents Joseph and Margaret Taylor
witnesses M P Ryan and Maria Brown
( Jam civililiter  28th Marti 1911
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:32 BST (UK)
Lancs BMD Marriage http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
1911 Manchester Registry Office or Registrar attended
Johann Valente and Margaret Taylor

Free BMD shows the marriage in March quarter
Margaret Valente married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Valente married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital
  Sorry changed to Mary Valente
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:37 BST (UK)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/26756226:61596
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:40 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

the last one i believe is the right one as i got a address of his daughter wedding 1939 cert and found them at the same address with john Valente crossed out John and Giovanni wrote in
I found a Johann Valente Married a Margaret Taylor in Manchester 1911 sent of for Wedding Cert

Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Valente married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital

Meant Mary Valente not Taylor
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:41 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

the last one i believe is the right one as i got a address of his daughter wedding 1939 cert and found them at the same address with john Valente crossed out John and Giovanni wrote in
I found a Johann Valente Married a Margaret Taylor in Manchester 1911 sent of for Wedding Cert

Margaret Taylor married a Johann Valente in 1911
Mary Valente married Harold Ellis in 1939 so not on the census which I got the address from mary and Harold Wedding Cert as 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Census 1939 foir That address showns
Joseph F Valente 1919
Margaret Valente
Teresa Valent
Kathleen Valente
on the Census got some Married names and John is Crossed out and Gioranni put in but I think it Giovanni as I have a Giovanni Valente died in 1945 in Crumpstall Hospital

Meant Mary Valente not Taylor
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 04 May 22 22:48 BST (UK)
Who was Mary Taylor?  Sister to Margaret?

Meant Mary Valente not Taylor
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 05 May 22 16:09 BST (UK)
Michael, your posts seem to be repeating themselves or you're reposting the same information. See replies 5,6, 7, 8 & 9 and 14, 16, 17, and 18.
If you need to correct something you've just posted or add something you missed out, click "Modify" above your post, then amend or add whatever it is. Add a P.S. saying what you amended, if more than a few minutes have passed since the original posting, so that readers know it's been altered. If more time has passed and the post has likely been already read, it may be more helpful to make a new post to mention an error or omission from a previous post.
You can modify a post or delete an unnecessary post up to 24 hours after posting. You have to ask a moderator if more than 24 hours have elapsed.
It's not always necessary to quote an entire post in a reply. You can just quote the relevant part/s. Another, shorter option is to refer to the reply number + a poster's name.
I hope this explanation helps.         
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 05 May 22 17:00 BST (UK)
St Michael Ancoats
24th Feb 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaritam Taylor
Grooms parents Henerici Valenti and Catherinae Della Torre
Brides parents Joseph and Margaret Taylor
witnesses M P Ryan and Maria Brown
( Jam civililiter  28th Marti 1911

This was a Catholic wedding ceremony 10 years after a civil marriage ceremony. I presume the 1911 marriage was in a registry office.
John Valente and Margaret Taylor. Groom's parents Henry Valente & Catherine Della Torre.

St. Michael R.C. Church, Ancoats, Manchester. Photo + transcriptions + indexes for some baptism and marriage registers are on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html
Transcriptions of baptism registers go only up to 1898. There are baptisms for children of another Valente family. Surname transcribed & indexed as Valenta, Valente, Valenti. May also want to look at Valentine, Valentini, and perhaps Valvetti, Varetta, Varetti &c. in case of deciphering problems and transcription errors. Some other Italian families in the register may have been related or have come from same Italian region.
LAN-OPC Ancestor Search has an option to look up another named person in records, e.g. a marriage witness or baptismal sponsor. This can be useful when trying to gather clues for possible relationships, friendships and social/community networks.

 


Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 05 May 22 17:12 BST (UK)
Ancoats was "Little Italy".
"Manchester's Little Italy and the Pioneers of Britain's Ice Cream Industry" by Eve Henley
https://manchesterhistorian.com 
Select "Current Issue" tab then 22nd April 2022 which takes you to the Twitter page, then click on photo of Little Italy to read article.
Manchester Italian Catholic Society formed 1888.
Manchester Italian Association is on Facebook.
Italian community's traditional Madonna Del Rosario public procession will take to Manchester streets in July after a 2 year absence. 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 05 May 22 17:48 BST (UK)
Ancoats was "Little Italy".
"Manchester's Little Italy and the Pioneers of Britain's Ice Cream Industry" by Eve Henley
https://manchesterhistorian.com 
Select "Current Issue" tab then 22nd April 2022 which takes you to the Twitter page, then click on photo of Little Italy to read article.


A quicker way to access the article by Eve Henley.
https://manchesterhistorian.com/tag/little-italy/

A website about history of Italian community in Ancoats "Manchester's Ancoats Little Italy" by Anthony Rea. Has a surname list and a section on ice cream families.
www.ancoatslittleitaly.com
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 05 May 22 18:22 BST (UK)

St. Michael R.C. Church, Ancoats, Manchester. Photo + transcriptions + indexes for some baptism and marriage registers are on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html
There are baptisms for children of another Valente family.


Parents Antony and Palma?
Family on 1901 census. Thompson Street, Saint George sub-district, Manchester
Piece/Folio 47; Schedule 220; Page 33
Antonio Valente age 36 born Italy, piano tuner.
Palmer wife born Italy.
Frederick 15, son, born Leeds, Yorkshire
5 youngest children born Manchester
Can't find that family on 1891 census. They had children baptised at St. Michael, Ancoats before 1891.
There was a Pietro Valente, organ grinder on 1891 census, lodging with 2 more organ grinders in Ancoats.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Thursday 05 May 22 19:35 BST (UK)
Here is Anthony in 1891. He is too young to be the father of John though.

1891 3242 /52

Foundry Street, Manchester
Anthony Valentine 27 yrs Piano Tuner b Italy
Palmer   -do- 25 yrs b Italy
Ferdans 5 yrs b Leeds
Rose 2 months b Manchester

Added - lodging with Crolla  family. His father was Henry - reply #13
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 06 May 22 15:19 BST (UK)
Here is Anthony in 1891. He is too young to be the father of John though.

1891 3242 /52

Foundry Street, Manchester
Anthony Valentine 27 yrs Piano Tuner b Italy
Palmer   -do- 25 yrs b Italy
Ferdans 5 yrs b Leeds
Rose 2 months b Manchester

Added - lodging with Crolla  family. His father was Henry - reply #13

You mean John's father was Henry.
Members of a Crolla/Crolli family were godparents for a child of Anthony.
Ferdans on 1891 census was probably Frederick on 1901.
Valente was on the surnames list on the Ancoats Little Italy website (reply #22)

More surname variants in records may be Volante/Volanti/Volente/Volenti/Velente &c.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 06 May 22 15:49 BST (UK)
Another Valente birth, mother's maiden surname Taylor.
1914 Anthony registered Ancoats sub-district
Births of Joseph F. 1919 + the younger daughters mentioned in previous posts were registered in East Manchester sub-district. Possibly 2 more daughters registered E. Manchester 1921 & 1924.

Source: Lancashire BMD
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 06 May 22 16:11 BST (UK)

Births of Joseph F. 1919 + the younger daughters mentioned in previous posts were registered in East Manchester sub-district. Possibly 2 more daughters registered E. Manchester 1921 & 1924.

Source: Lancashire BMD

Having now checked on GRO, 1921 birth doesn't belong.
1921 birth has mother's surname Brown GRO Ref. S quarter Manchester Volume 08D page 418
1924 birth registration, no mother's maiden surname in GRO index M quarter Manchester Volume 08D p406
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 06 May 22 16:23 BST (UK)
Another Valente birth, mother's maiden surname Taylor.
1914 Anthony registered Ancoats sub-district


Death registration.
1914 VALENTI Anthony age 0 GRO ref. M quarter Prestwich volume 08D page 373
Death registration index on Lancashire BMD shows Cheetham as sub-district.

I make that 8 children for John Valente & Margaret. 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Friday 06 May 22 16:38 BST (UK)

Births of Joseph F. 1919 + the younger daughters mentioned in previous posts were registered in East Manchester sub-district. Possibly 2 more daughters registered E. Manchester 1921 & 1924.

Source: Lancashire BMD

Having now checked on GRO, 1921 birth doesn't belong.
1921 birth has mother's surname Brown GRO Ref. S quarter Manchester Volume 08D page 418


Baptism St. Ann's Ancoats, 1921, parents James/Jacobi & Ada. Parents married 1921.
Perhaps a granddaughter of Anthony Valente.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Monday 09 May 22 21:22 BST (UK)
Hi All
         I now got the Marriage Certificate of Mary Valente to Harold Ellis with fathers name as John Valente of 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton with Sons Joseph born 18/4/19, Kathleen hodson nee Valente 10/8/23, Margaret Pridding Nee Valente 30/5/1930, Teresa Mcviegh Nee valente
Mary would not have been at the address and she was living with Harold

I have the marrige certifiate of Johann Valente to margaret Taylor 23 March 1911 with Johann Father as Houorio Valente dead by 1911 and Margaret as Joseph Taylor address is 89 Jersey Street Ancoats

and John valente and Annie Valente 135 Jersey Street Ancoats
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 00:44 BST (UK)

         I now got the Marriage Certificate of Mary Valente to Harold Ellis with fathers name as John Valente of 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Mary would not have been at the address and she was living with Harold

I have the marrige certifiate of Johann Valente to margaret Taylor 23 March 1911 with Johann Father as Houorio Valente dead by 1911 and Margaret as Joseph Taylor address is 89 Jersey Street Ancoats

and John valente and Annie Valente 135 Jersey Street Ancoats


What ages did John and Margaret say they were when they married? Who were witnesses?
I think "Houorio" should be Henrico. John's father in the church marriage register in 1921 is Henrico (Henry).

Can you clarify who was living at which address?
39 Cheetham Street, Chorlton
89 Jersey Street, Ancoats
135 Jersey Street, Ancoats
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 15:01 BST (UK)
Hi
   in the 1911 Census I have living at 135 Jersey Street Ancoats I have John Valente and Annie Taylor
I got the Address on the Marriage Certificate I ordered for Johann Velente I have Margaret Taylors address as 135 Jersey street Ancoats marriage and Census both in 1911 and John Velente Living at 89 Jersey Street Ancoats

John Valente Daughter Mary married Harold Ellis in 1939 the father was listed as John Valente registered at 39 Cheetham Street address listed in the marriage certificate and Census with his name change from John to Gioranni but i thinks thats Giovanni most likely due to his Italian accent

on the Marriage Certifiate of Johann Valente and Margaret Taylor their is just a x could NOT spell his name Johann father is listed as Houorio deceased in 1911 marriage

John Valente is registered at 89 Jersey Street and Margaret Taylor registered at 135 Jersey Street Ancoats

but in the 1911 Census registeed at the address is John Valente and Annie Taylor as in Margaret Anne Taylor

the next bit is the Polosi family have John Valente married in Glasgow to Nancy Polosi and linked to john valente at 135 Jersey Street and in the 1901 Census Nancey is 15 living at 3 Jersey Street Ancoats but married at portugal street glasgow 1905 dont know how this fits in as john fathewr there is listed as Raffaelo SO EITHER THIS LINK IS FALSE OR jOHN AND mARGARET LIED MAYBE BECAUSE HE WAS STILL MARRIED ??????

also 2 years difference on age listed in marriage cert and census
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 15:22 BST (UK)
ďthe next bit is the Polosi family have John Valente married in Glasgow to Nancy Polosi and linked to john valente at 135 Jersey Street and in the 1901 Census Nancey is 15 living at 3 Jersey Street Ancoats but married at portugal street glasgow 1905 dont know how this fits in as john fathewr there is listed as Raffaelo SO EITHER THIS LINK IS FALSE OR jOHN AND mARGARET LIED MAYBE BECAUSE HE WAS STILL MARRIED ??????Ē


There is a published tree which shows this couple in 1911. You have John Valente with Annie in 1911.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 15:29 BST (UK)

         I now got the Marriage Certificate of Mary Valente to Harold Ellis with fathers name as John Valente of 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton
Mary would not have been at the address and she was living with Harold

I have the marrige certifiate of Johann Valente to margaret Taylor 23 March 1911 with Johann Father as Houorio Valente dead by 1911 and Margaret as Joseph Taylor address is 89 Jersey Street Ancoats

and John valente and Annie Valente 135 Jersey Street Ancoats


What ages did John and Margaret say they were when they married? Who were witnesses?
I think "Houorio" should be Henrico. John's father in the church marriage register in 1921 is Henrico (Henry).

Can you clarify who was living at which address?
39 Cheetham Street, Chorlton - John Valente and Margaret Valente on wedding cert of mary valente and 1939 census
89 Jersey Street, Ancoats - johann Valente on marriage cert
135 Jersey Street, Ancoats - Johann Valente on marriage cert and margaret taylor on marriage cert but annie Valente and john Valente on 1911 census
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 15:31 BST (UK)
ďthe next bit is the Polosi family have John Valente married in Glasgow to Nancy Polosi and linked to john valente at 135 Jersey Street and in the 1901 Census Nancey is 15 living at 3 Jersey Street Ancoats but married at portugal street glasgow 1905 dont know how this fits in as john fathewr there is listed as Raffaelo SO EITHER THIS LINK IS FALSE OR jOHN AND mARGARET LIED MAYBE BECAUSE HE WAS STILL MARRIED ??????Ē


There is a published tree which shows this couple in 1911. You have John Valente with Annie in 1911.

yes i have that but the polosi family have a link to john but this look like they lived on the same street and the age is the same cant find anything on this man like father

Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 15:37 BST (UK)
It is on Ancestry and I found it by searching Nancy P*losi.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 16:21 BST (UK)
ďthe next bit is the Polosi family have John Valente married in Glasgow to Nancy Polosi and linked to john valente at 135 Jersey Street and in the 1901 Census Nancey is 15 living at 3 Jersey Street Ancoats but married at portugal street glasgow 1905 dont know how this fits in as john fathewr there is listed as Raffaelo SO EITHER THIS LINK IS FALSE OR jOHN AND mARGARET LIED MAYBE BECAUSE HE WAS STILL MARRIED ??????Ē


There is a published tree which shows this couple in 1911. You have John Valente with Annie in 1911.

Nancy can be a "pet" name for Anne.
Nancy who married John in 1905 may be Anne Valente on 1911 census.
 Anne was 24 on 1911 census which almost fits with Nancy Pelosi who was aged 15 on 1901 census. A discrepancy is birthplace. Nancy on 1901 census had Italy as birthplace. Anne on 1911 census had birthplace Manchester. However, the source for 1901 is the census enumerator's book, not the original household return. Source for 1911 census is the household return. 
Anne had been married 2 years according to 1911 census. The question about length of marriage was how many complete years. So 2 years could have been almost 3. That still doesn't add up to a wedding in 1905 though. 1911 census was taken on 2nd April.
Also in the household headed by John Valente on 1911 census was a man with surname Taylor. Relationship to head of household was servant. Could he have been a relative of Margaret Taylor?

Does 1905 marriage record for John Valente and Nancy Polosi give their addresses and ages? Who were witnesses?

John Valente & Margaret Taylor married on 23rd March 1911. (Date on marriage cert., reply #30)
Are ages of John and Margaret on marriage certificate?

 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 16:36 BST (UK)
From a published tree
4th May 1905 St Johnís Portugal Street Glasgow
Giovanni Valente, Ice Cream Dealer and Maria Nunziata Pelosi both residing Glasgow.
Esther Pelosi  - a witness

The Pelosi family are in Manchester in 1901.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 16:53 BST (UK)
From a published tree
4th May 1905 St Johnís Portugal Street Glasgow
Giovanni Valente, Ice Cream Dealer and Maria Nunziata Pelosi both residing Glasgow.
Esther Pelosi  - a witness


So she wasn't called Ann? Unless Nunziata anglicised to Annunziata, then shortened to Ann?
What's the connection to John Valente with wife Ann in Manchester?
Any children? I couldn't find any Valente births with Pelosi/Polosi mother's maiden surname in England.
Looking at other Pelosi/Polosi birth registrations in & near Manchester, other possible variants were Peluzzi and perhaps Pollicey. 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 17:18 BST (UK)
1911 (from the tree) wife is Annie and 2 children b Glasgow.

I donít suppose John Valente was in England and Scotland in 1911?

The marriages show different Valenti fathers and Mr Pelosiís death in 1918  is reported by his daughter Esther DeMarco.

Has Margaret Taylor been found as Margaret Ann?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 17:24 BST (UK)

89 Jersey Street, Ancoats - johann Valente on marriage cert
135 Jersey Street, Ancoats - Johann Valente on marriage cert and margaret taylor on marriage cert but annie Valente and john Valente on 1911 census


I'm still confused. Which number in Jersey Street did John say was his address when he married? 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 17:40 BST (UK)
1911 (from the tree) wife is Annie and 2 children b Glasgow.

I donít suppose John Valente was in England and Scotland in 1911?

The marriages show different Valenti fathers and Mr Pelosiís death in 1918  is reported by his daughter Esther DeMarco.

Has Margaret Taylor been found as Margaret Ann?

I am Not sure i will go back and look at all my info again I just have Margaret Taylor as she is My partners great grand mother

Mary Valente who is the daughter of John Valente and mother is called taylor so the Pelosi wont be the same
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 17:45 BST (UK)
1911 (from the tree) wife is Annie and 2 children b Glasgow.

I donít suppose John Valente was in England and Scotland in 1911?

The marriages show different Valenti fathers and Mr Pelosiís death in 1918  is reported by his daughter Esther DeMarco.

Has Margaret Taylor been found as Margaret Ann?

I dont have john Valente in scotland in 1911 just 1905 marrying a Nancy Pelosi on the family tree she linked john Valente to a 135 Jersey Street and the marriage cert I got for Margaret Taylor and Johann Valente is down as 135 Jersey street to with Margaret changing her name to annie
 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 18:02 BST (UK)
I have the marrige certifiate of Johann Valente to margaret Taylor 23 March 1911 with Johann Father as Houorio Valente dead by 1911 and Margaret as Joseph Taylor address is 89 Jersey Street Ancoats


What occupation is there for Joseph Taylor?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 18:11 BST (UK)
1911 (from the tree) wife is Annie and 2 children b Glasgow.

I donít suppose John Valente was in England and Scotland in 1911?

The marriages show different Valenti fathers and Mr Pelosiís death in 1918  is reported by his daughter Esther DeMarco.

Has Margaret Taylor been found as Margaret Ann?

I think we should assume they were 2 men named John Valente, one of whom married in Glasgow in 1905, unless there is firm evidence to link that John Valente to the one on 1911 census in Manchester.
Is there a name for a father of Maria Nunziata Pelosi or for Glasgow Annie?

Browsing Pelosi/Palossi &c baptisms & marriages in & around Manchester. There was a Pelosi family, Ferdinand & Scholastica at 7 Jersey St. I found at least 2 Pelosi & Pelosi marriages in Ancoats, including "Fortunatum" (Ferdinand?) and Scholastica.

Di Marco, Pelosi and Valente are all on a surnames list of Scottish-Italians in 1930s. 20+ entries for Pelosi and for Valente in Glasgow. Di Marco was also in Glasgow. "Family Portrait - the Scots Italians 1890-1940" National Library of Scotland.   
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 18:22 BST (UK)
I am wary of pursuing the Pelosi family - I think there are two John Valentes but here is Nancy in 1901 with her parentsí names.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X929-QKH
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 18:23 BST (UK)

Mary Valente who is the daughter of John Valente and mother is called taylor so the Pelosi wont be the same

What I was trying to do was find out if there were any children born to the Valente-Pelosi couple + birthplaces & years of birth, then probably use that information to eliminate the John Valente who married in Glasgow. I think he's a red herring.
 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 18:31 BST (UK)
I am wary of pursuing the Pelosi family - I think there are two John Valentes but here is Nancy in 1901 with her parentsí names.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X929-QKH

She had a sister named Esther.  :-\ Their father was Gastoni  :-\
What was the Glasgow Pelosi bride's father's name?
You found a Pelosi death, informant was his daughter, Esther Di Marco. Where was that? 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 10 May 22 18:40 BST (UK)

I dont have john Valente in scotland in 1911 just 1905 marrying a Nancy Pelosi on the family tree she linked john Valente to a 135 Jersey Street
 

Which family tree? Is it a tree you were given or is it a tree on a family history website?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 20:28 BST (UK)

I dont have john Valente in scotland in 1911 just 1905 marrying a Nancy Pelosi on the family tree she linked john Valente to a 135 Jersey Street
 

Which family tree? Is it a tree you were given or is it a tree on a family history website?

pelosi tree on ancestry
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 20:35 BST (UK)

Mary Valente who is the daughter of John Valente and mother is called taylor so the Pelosi wont be the same

What I was trying to do was find out if there were any children born to the Valente-Pelosi couple + birthplaces & years of birth, then probably use that information to eliminate the John Valente who married in Glasgow. I think he's a red herring.

John Valente married Nancy Pelosi 1905 had antonia and adelina now these pelosi were registered at 3 jersey street ancoats and johann Valente but on the 1911 its john from johann

margaret on the bdm changes to annie on the census

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/44873572/family?cfpid=6310822589
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 20:36 BST (UK)

I dont have john Valente in scotland in 1911 just 1905 marrying a Nancy Pelosi on the family tree she linked john Valente to a 135 Jersey Street
 

Which family tree? Is it a tree you were given or is it a tree on a family history website?

pelosi tree on ancestry

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/44873572/family?cfpid=6310822589
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 21:05 BST (UK)

John Valente married Nancy Pelosi 1905 had antonia and adelina now these pelosi were registered at 3 jersey street ancoats and johann Valente but on the 1911 its john from johann

margaret on the bdm changes to annie on the census

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/44873572/family?cfpid=6310822589

If you look at the tree you have linked, the two children are born in Scotland.

Scotlandís People shows births:
Adelina Valente 1906 Gorbals
Antonio Valente 1907 Gorbals

These Ďfití with 1911 children Tony 3 yrs and Edith 5 yrs.

Whilst it is possible they are connected to your family, they are not the ones you are following if the 1911 family in Manchester are yours.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 21:09 BST (UK)
Coming to the idea that John Valente or Johann Valente and Later Giovanni are the same
 and Margaret Valente and Annie Valente are the same as Listed in the Marriage Certifate and Census

and the The Pelosi connection is not the line to go down as the ages are different and I fathers are different

mike
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 21:10 BST (UK)
Does the Margaret Taylor marriage certificate have an occupation for Margaretís father?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 21:13 BST (UK)
Does the Margaret Taylor marriage certificate have an occupation for Margaretís father?

i think sheet metal worker
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 10 May 22 21:23 BST (UK)
Who were the witnesses to that marriage?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 10 May 22 21:26 BST (UK)
Who were the witnesses to that marriage?
at johann valente and margaret taylor looks like frank reiss and jane child on the cert
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 11 May 22 16:13 BST (UK)

margaret on the bdm changes to annie on the census

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/44873572/family?cfpid=6310822589

When and where was Margaret Taylor's birth registered? Can you provide a reference?
Was she ever known as a Anne or Margaret Anne or Anne Margaret, except on 1911 census?
It's confusing that she was Margaret on the wedding certificate but Ann on 1911 census only a week later. 
What was her full name on the wedding certificate?

We don't all have Ancestry subscriptions so can't look at your links.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 11 May 22 16:21 BST (UK)

Which family tree? Is it a tree you were given or is it a tree on a family history website?

pelosi tree on ancestry

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/44873572/family?cfpid=6310822589

Does that tree belong to you or to someone else?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 11 May 22 16:23 BST (UK)

If you look at the tree you have linked, the two children are born in Scotland.

Scotlandís People shows births:
Adelina Valente 1906 Gorbals
Antonio Valente 1907 Gorbals

These Ďfití with 1911 children Tony 3 yrs and Edith 5 yrs.


Where was their location in 1911?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 11 May 22 16:54 BST (UK)
Maiden Stone,
That family were in Calton, Lanarkshire - Scotlands People in 1911.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 11 May 22 17:40 BST (UK)
Maiden Stone,
That family were in Calton, Lanarkshire - Scotlands People in 1911.

Calton is in Glasgow.
It's more evidence that John Valente who married Miss Pelosi in Glasgow in 1905 was a different man to the John Valente who married Margaret Taylor in 1911.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 11 May 22 21:28 BST (UK)

Which family tree? Is it a tree you were given or is it a tree on a family history website?

pelosi tree on ancestry

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/44873572/family?cfpid=6310822589

Does that tree belong to you or to someone else?

its my tree on ancestry
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 11 May 22 21:37 BST (UK)
Seem to hit a dead end

John or Johann and Giovanni Valente born italy 1875 i think died manchester 1945 in crumpstall hospital got death hopefully it will shown me something known address 89 Jersey Street and 135 Jersey Street and 39 Cheetham Street

Margaret or Annie Valente maiden name taylor born 1886 dont know where but address in 1911 is 135 Jersey Street Ancoats and 1939 39 Cheetham Street Cholton

children are John Valente 1910 dead 1910
Joseph Valente 1919 married Thousdale ?
Teresa Valente married a Mcviegh
Margaret Valente married a Pridding
Kathleen Valente married a Hodson
Mary Valente  married Harold Ellis 1939

any other site that are good free on cheap
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 11 May 22 21:45 BST (UK)
Do you think itís best to put the Pelosi marriage on one side now.

I have been looking for Margaret Taylor with no success with the parents mentioned.
Did she also give a Jersey Street address on the marriage certificate?

Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Thursday 12 May 22 15:54 BST (UK)
Do you think itís best to put the Pelosi marriage on one side now.

I have been looking for Margaret Taylor with no success with the parents mentioned.
Did she also give a Jersey Street address on the marriage certificate?

i am putting the pelosi to one side now

is there a way to find italian births free online

i got the death certifiate the birth year look right 70 in 1945 living in moston margaret valente reported the death trying to get a birth info for either to continue the research
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Thursday 12 May 22 15:57 BST (UK)
Do you think itís best to put the Pelosi marriage on one side now.

I have been looking for Margaret Taylor with no success with the parents mentioned.
Did she also give a Jersey Street address on the marriage certificate?

She was Margaret Valente 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton in 1939 census closest i have is Johnann Valente marrying Margaret
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Thursday 12 May 22 16:05 BST (UK)
I meant her marriage certificate to John Valente. Was there an address there for Margaret.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 17:15 BST (UK)
I meant her marriage certificate to John Valente. Was there an address there for Margaret.

See Michael's reply #32 on page 4 for addresses at marriage.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 17:34 BST (UK)

is there a way to find italian births free online


Look at the Europe board which is under heading "Research in other countries" on the Forum. It has a list of resources. If you don't see anything on the list you could ask for suggestions. 
 If you put a new request about John Valente on that board, say in your first post that you already have this topic on the Lancashire board.
You have the benefit of knowing names of both his parents from the Ancoats church marriage register for the Catholic wedding ceremony on 1921.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Thursday 12 May 22 17:48 BST (UK)
I meant her marriage certificate to John Valente. Was there an address there for Margaret.

See Michael's reply #32 on page 4 for addresses at marriage.

Thanks - I had checked that as they were living there in 1911 so no help. I have been back and forth along Jersey Street as much as I could for 1911. 
As ĎMargaretí is also Annie in 1921, I have also tried both Margaret and Annie in earlier censuses but nothing which seems reliable.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Ian Nelson on Thursday 12 May 22 17:54 BST (UK)
If you are following up the Glasgow connection there was Valente's Scooter franchise in Great Western Road, Glasgow, Vespa & Lambretta, in the 50s and 60s and possibly later.
I also knew Adolphe Valente ( born Italy and married a Glasgow woman ) and his family who were in the Catering Business with Ice Cream and Fish and Chips around the Temple area just north of Anniesland Cross.  They returned every summer to Italy on holiday, Barga rings a bell.
cheers, Ian
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Thursday 12 May 22 18:00 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

The Joseph Frederick Valente and the rest of the family are the right one and on Mary and Harold Ellis wedding Certificate John Valente is registered as the father and the address is 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton so yes is the right one Mary is not on the census as she had a daughter and moved in with Harold Ellis to which see married in 1939 and lived at 18 riding street
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Thursday 12 May 22 18:01 BST (UK)
There is one with a wife Annie and 2 servants in 1911.  Age 33 is that the one you have found?

What year do you have him marrying Margaret Taylor please?

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 

Plus a Joseph Frederick born 1919 and a Kathleen born 1923 with mothers name Taylor - does this sound the right family?

Another daughter born 1929.

The Joseph Frederick Valente and the rest of the family are the right one and on Mary and Harold Ellis wedding Certificate John Valente is registered as the father and the address is 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton so yes is the right one Mary is not on the census as she had a daughter and moved in with Harold Ellis to which see married in 1939 and lived at 18 riding street

the other John born in 1911 can you send me the link and mothers maiden name please
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Thursday 12 May 22 18:05 BST (UK)
I meant her marriage certificate to John Valente. Was there an address there for Margaret.

See Michael's reply #32 on page 4 for addresses at marriage.

Thanks - I had checked that as they were living there in 1911 so no help. I have been back and forth along Jersey Street as much as I could for 1911. 
As ĎMargaretí is also Annie in 1921, I have also tried both Margaret and Annie in earlier censuses but nothing which seems reliable.

on Giovanni Death certificate Margaret Valente is down as his Widow living at 2 Annesley Road Moston on the 13 July 1945 john change his name to giovanni on the 1939 census same address as on mary and harold ellis wedding cert which is his daughter born 1917
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 19:09 BST (UK)
Ian Nelson reply #73. We're all now agreed that John Valente in Glasgow wasn't the same man as John Valente in Manchester.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Thursday 12 May 22 19:18 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs

I canít see the family in 1911. There are possible deaths for the parents. Perhaps even marriages for Margaret.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 19:28 BST (UK)

There was a John Valente with mothers name Taylor born Manchester 1910 but died 1910.

Then another John born after the 1911 census. 


the other John born in 1911 can you send me the link and mothers maiden name please


Maiden surname was Taylor.

lancashirebmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php
Lancashire BMD Lancashire Births index 1911
VALENTE John; Mother's maiden surname TAYLOR; Sub-district Ancoats

General Register Office
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results
VALENTE John; Mother's maiden surname TAYLOR
GRO Reference 1911 S Quarter Manchester Volume 08D Page 361
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 19:47 BST (UK)

Thanks - I had checked that as they were living there in 1911 so no help. I have been back and forth along Jersey Street as much as I could for 1911. 
As ĎMargaretí is also Annie in 1921, I have also tried both Margaret and Annie in earlier censuses but nothing which seems reliable.

 john change his name to giovanni on the 1939

What were ages in years & months of John & wife on 1921 census?
What were dates of birth of John and Margaret on 1939 Register?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 20:07 BST (UK)
There was a John Taylor aged 24, musician, in household with John & Annie Valente on 1911 census. Relationship to head of household was servant. I thought he might have been brother-in-law to John Valente. Another young man in the household whose occupation was also musician was also servant to head of household.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Thursday 12 May 22 20:21 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs


Birth registrations:

Lancashire BMD Births index 1891 Joseph E. Salford Greengate sub-district. There were other Joseph Taylor registrations in Salford 1890 & 1891.

GRO Births index:
TAYLOR Joseph E; Mother's maiden surname RILEY 1891 M Q Salford
TAYLOR Albert; Mother's maiden surname RILEY 1894 M Q 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 20:55 BST (UK)
Ian Nelson reply #73. We're all now agreed that John Valente in Glasgow wasn't the same man as John Valente in Manchester.

yes i am new to this
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 21:13 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs

I canít see the family in 1911. There are possible deaths for the parents. Perhaps even marriages for Margaret.

i have Margaret taylor marrying johann valente in 1911
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 21:22 BST (UK)

Thanks - I had checked that as they were living there in 1911 so no help. I have been back and forth along Jersey Street as much as I could for 1911. 
As ĎMargaretí is also Annie in 1921, I have also tried both Margaret and Annie in earlier censuses but nothing which seems reliable.

 john change his name to giovanni on the 1939

What were ages in years & months of John & wife on 1921 census?
What were dates of birth of John and Margaret on 1939 Register?

john on 1911 he was 33 and 1939 64 but he could not read or write so that could be why there is a different as on wedding cert i have Johann but the 1911 census jersey st john is 33
I meant her marriage certificate to John Valente. Was there an address there for Margaret.

See Michael's reply #32 on page 4 for addresses at marriage.

Thanks - I had checked that as they were living there in 1911 so no help. I have been back and forth along Jersey Street as much as I could for 1911. 
As ĎMargaretí is also Annie in 1921, I have also tried both Margaret and Annie in earlier censuses but nothing which seems reliable.

on the Wedding Certifiate Margarets address was 135 Jersey street ancoats and Johns or Johann was 89 Jersey street ancoats
1911 Census I have John Valente and Annie Valente at 135 Jersey street with another John Taylor aged the same as Margaret 24 i dont know if they related or not but i am thinking a twin
 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 21:23 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs

I canít see the family in 1911. There are possible deaths for the parents. Perhaps even marriages for Margaret.

i have Margaret taylor marrying johann valente in 1911
Salford is part of greater manchester back then
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Friday 13 May 22 21:28 BST (UK)
Yes we know the Taylor/Valente marriage and this was the only Margaret I have found up to now.
It was just to note really.
I think you said that Joseph on the marriage certificate was a sheet metal worker which the Joseph in the census is.
However, the Margaret above was born Salford and there is the matter of the name - Margaret Mary and in one census Margaret Ann.
The only way to discount her perhaps would be to purchase her birth certificate and check the birth date.
Those differences are a concern though.

I have just seen your added comment re Salford. It was separate from Manchester. I think it would be a Borough then. It later became a city.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 22:01 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs


Birth registrations:

Lancashire BMD Births index 1891 Joseph E. Salford Greengate sub-district. There were other Joseph Taylor registrations in Salford 1890 & 1891.

GRO Births index:
TAYLOR Joseph E; Mother's maiden surname RILEY 1891 M Q Salford
TAYLOR Albert; Mother's maiden surname RILEY 1894 M Q

where would i find the volume number and pages for this the only one for salford in sept 1886 i get is Margaret Mary Taylor
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 22:03 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs


Birth registrations:

Lancashire BMD Births index 1891 Joseph E. Salford Greengate sub-district. There were other Joseph Taylor registrations in Salford 1890 & 1891.

GRO Births index:
TAYLOR Joseph E; Mother's maiden surname RILEY 1891 M Q Salford
TAYLOR Albert; Mother's maiden surname RILEY 1894 M Q

where would i find the volume number and pages for this the only one for salford in sept 1886 i get is Margaret Mary Taylor

what these number mean iu guess one is the year 1891 3218 /134
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Friday 13 May 22 22:11 BST (UK)
She is registered as Margaret Mary. September quarter Salford vol 8d pg 115

But in 1891 census she is M Ann.

1891 census
Piece 3218
Folio 134

Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 22:43 BST (UK)
She is registered as Margaret Mary. September quarter Salford vol 8d pg 115

But in 1891 census she is M Ann.

1891 census
Piece 3218
Folio 134

and the two are the same i will order the birth cert
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 13 May 22 22:45 BST (UK)
There was a John Taylor aged 24, musician, in household with John & Annie Valente on 1911 census. Relationship to head of household was servant. I thought he might have been brother-in-law to John Valente. Another young man in the household whose occupation was also musician was also servant to head of household.

I tought this too the census was done april 1911 and margaret / annie was born on the 16 aug 1886 as in the 1939 register so i was thinking his is a twin as born the same age or the mother got pregent right away and john born 4 to 8 weeks early or no relation at all he was born oldham she manchester mmmm not sure
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 14 May 22 11:10 BST (UK)
There was a John Taylor aged 24, musician, in household with John & Annie Valente on 1911 census. Relationship to head of household was servant. I thought he might have been brother-in-law to John Valente.

I thought this too the census was done april 1911 and margaret / annie was born on the 16 aug 1886 as in the 1939 register so i was thinking his is a twin as born the same age or the mother got pregent right away and john born 4 to 8 weeks early or no relation at all he was born oldham she manchester mmmm not sure

I thought at first that he might have been Annie/Margaret's brother, but:
1. If he was her brother his relationship to head of household on the census should have been brother-in-
    law.
2. There were some John Taylor birth registrations in Oldham but I couldn't see one with Riley/Reilly
   mother's maiden surname.
He might have been a more distant relative or not related at all. Taylor is such a common name. 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 14 May 22 11:21 BST (UK)

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton

Joseph is a Brass worker - Sheet Metal Worker (I think you mention this)
Margaret wife
Margaret M, 14 yrs
Albert 7 yrs


Joseph and Margaret were names of Margaret Taylor's parents in the church marriage register for her Catholic wedding ceremony to John Valente in 1921. (See reply #13)
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Saturday 14 May 22 11:37 BST (UK)
I just offered that Margaret as there are a couple of similarities, parental names and fatherís occupation and by checking her birthdate, it would confirm/deny that it was her.
It is a pity that there are no baptismal records online that I can see.
As Maiden Stone says, it is a common surname.
I have, in the past, looked for a marriage for John Taylor in that area but too hard.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 15 May 22 19:53 BST (UK)
i have paid for the birth certificate for margaret taylor in 1886 in the sept so will have to wait to see if the birth cert matches
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Sunday 15 May 22 19:54 BST (UK)
Oh I do hope so.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 15 May 22 20:08 BST (UK)
any idea how to find a Honorio Valente born italy guessing around 1840 to say 1855 son would be eith john valente or giovanni valente
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 15 May 22 20:08 BST (UK)
Oh I do hope so.

i do to but its a good start and thank you everyone

Mike
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 20 May 22 14:41 BST (UK)
Oh I do hope so.

yes its the right margaret taylor mother maiden name riley birth cert just arrived today

thank you
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Friday 20 May 22 15:56 BST (UK)
Does the birth date fit?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Friday 20 May 22 20:41 BST (UK)
Does the birth date fit?
yes to the 1939 census 16 Aug 1886
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Friday 20 May 22 20:43 BST (UK)
Thatís super  :)
I am so pleased for you.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Saturday 21 May 22 19:17 BST (UK)
This Margaret is one to look at but not really much to go on.
Firstly, she is born Salford not Manchester  :-\
I think this is the right birth
Margaret Mary Taylor September quarter 1886 mmn Riley

1891 3218 /134
Long Street, Salford
Joseph Taylor 41 yrs ?plate worker b Ulverston
Margaret Taylor 38 yrs b Whitehaven
Oliver Taylor 13 yrs
M Ann Taylor 4 yrs
Jos Ed Taylor 2 months
Children b Salford

1901 3726 /10/11
Walnut Street, Broughton


Birth registration for Oliver Taylor in 1878.
Mother's maiden surname RILEY. GRO Reference 1878 M Quarter Salford Volume 08D Page 73
Lancashire BMD births index has an entry for Olive TAYLOR in 1878 in Broughton sub district. Lancashire BMD is compiled from original certificates.

Marriage in Lancashire BMD marriages index:
TAYLOR Joseph
RILEY Margaret
1877 Salford Saint Simon

St. Simon C. of E., Springfield Lane, Broughton
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Salford/Broughton/index.html


Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Monday 23 May 22 21:22 BST (UK)
Again everyone

thank you so much

any idea how to find more records on the Valente like family memebrs got nothing all I have is address from the marriage certificate

Johann Valente 89 jersey Street
Margaret Taylor 135 Jersey Street married 1911 clearly Johann Moved in with Margaret
father stated as Honorio deceased 1911

John Valente and Annie Valente 135 Jersey Street Ancoats on 1911 census

Mary Valente one of Johns Daughters Married Harold Ellis in 1939 both of 18 Riding Street
John Valentes address then was 39 Cheetham Street Chorlton

1939 Register John Valente 39 Cheetham Street name changed to Gioranni but i think it meante Giovanni

Death Giovanni Valente 13 july 1945 widow Margaret Valente 2 Annesley Road Moston

ANY HELP TO FIND HIS BITH TOWN OR ANY INFO

dob saids 22 feb 1875 but on the 1911 census say 1887 abt
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Tuesday 24 May 22 14:24 BST (UK)
I looked again at the marriage of John Valente at St. Michael's church, Ancoats, 24th February 1921. There were 6 weddings that day. All couples had previously had a civil ceremony or a wedding in a non-Catholic church. A witness for John Valente's marriage, J. Ryan, was a priest. He conducted 2 weddings that day and was a witness at 2 others. A priest was a witness at 5 weddings. A witness at the wedding of Eduardum (Edward) Smethurst & Maria Campbell was Joanne Baptista Valenti (John Baptist). The other witness was a priest. Those weddings were probably private ceremonies. The witness John Baptist Valenti was likely to have been the John Valente who married the same day.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 24 May 22 15:30 BST (UK)
I looked again at the marriage of John Valente at St. Michael's church, Ancoats, 24th February 1921. There were 6 weddings that day. All couples had previously had a civil ceremony or a wedding in a non-Catholic church. A witness for John Valente's marriage, J. Ryan, was a priest. He conducted 2 weddings that day and was a witness at 2 others. A priest was a witness at 5 weddings. A witness at the wedding of Eduardum (Edward) Smethurst & Maria Campbell was Joanne Baptista Valenti (John Baptist). The other witness was a priest. Those weddings were probably private ceremonies. The witness John Baptist Valenti was likely to have been the John Valente who married the same day.
www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html

I think we have the wedding of Johann Valente in 1911 to Margaret taylor as I have the Wedding certificate with an address of 89 Jersey Street to Margaret Taylor or 135 Jersey Street in which on the census in 1911 both are at Jersey street with johann changing to John and Margaret to annie which both anne and mary where used in peruious census i got the weedding cert his fathers name is  or looks like Honorio
 looking to trace John Valente birth certificate

the weeding in 1921 does it say the brides name

mike
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 24 May 22 16:49 BST (UK)
Somewhere in the posts  I recall that his father was likely to be ĎHenricoí rather than Honorio.

Found it - see reply #13 from Radcliff.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 24 May 22 19:49 BST (UK)
Somewhere in the posts  I recall that his father was likely to be ĎHenricoí rather than Honorio.

Found it - see reply #13 from Radcliff.

Thank you again just reread this what is Jam civililiter  28th Marti 1911
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 24 May 22 20:12 BST (UK)
St Michael Ancoats
24th Feb 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaritam Taylor
Grooms parents Henerici Valenti and Catherinae Della Torre
Brides parents Joseph and Margaret Taylor
witnesses M P Ryan and Maria Brown
( Jam civililiter  28th Marti 1911

DID NOT MAKE THE CONNECTION AT FIRST CAN I GET A COPY ANYWHERE
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 24 May 22 20:34 BST (UK)
Hi Again
             i am on ancestry familysearch and findmypast via the moman church but i cant find this info on the marriage in 1921
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 24 May 22 20:42 BST (UK)
See here

https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/
search parishes or just click on search (in blue) in Contents

Also useful

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Ancoats/StMichael

Copies of the original records for that time are at Lancashire Record Office
https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/media/67383/M.pdf

And Manchester
https://www.manchester.gov.uk/directory_record/438107/st_michael_roman_catholic_ancoats/category/785/marriages
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Tuesday 24 May 22 21:38 BST (UK)
THANK YOU I WILL GO TO MANCHESTER LIBARY IT SAID SOMETHING ABOUT BUYING THEM WHAT DOES THIS MEAN THE WHOLE MIRCO FILM

MIKE
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Tuesday 24 May 22 22:05 BST (UK)
I didnít see that but in the past with microfilms, we used to go to a library and scroll through and read them. There was a facility to then print off the one record you need.
It seems old fashioned now.
If you are local, then a visit will be no bother but if you have to travel, it might be best to phone in case you have to book.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 25 May 22 14:09 BST (UK)
I didnít see that but in the past with microfilms, we used to go to a library and scroll through and read them. There was a facility to then print off the one record you need.
It seems old fashioned now.
If you are local, then a visit will be no bother but if you have to travel, it might be best to phone in case you have to book.
going to phone and book in on saturday
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 25 May 22 14:19 BST (UK)
Good luck  :)
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 25 May 22 15:11 BST (UK)
I looked again at the marriage of John Valente at St. Michael's church, Ancoats, 24th February 1921. There were 6 weddings that day. All couples had previously had a civil ceremony or a wedding in a non-Catholic church.

www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html

To see the transcription on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website:
1. Click on the link in my quote above
2. Select Marriages from menu on St. Michael's, Ancoats, Home page
3. Select Surname Index
4. Select letter V in Surname Index
5. Valente; Joannem; Spouse Taylor; 1921. Click on Joannem to see transcription.

Transcription reads:
Marriage 24 February 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaretam Taylor
Groom's parents: Henrici Valente & Catherinae Della Torare (Transcriber has put a question mark after Torare)
Bride's parents: Josephi Taylor & Margaretae
Witnesses: M.P. Ryan, Maria Brown
Married by Augustinus Moore O.S.M.
Notes: Jam civiliter 28 Marti 1911
Register: Marriage 1877-1923
Source: Original Register

Forenames are in Latin. Letters at end of Latin forenames change according to case (what role that person plays in a sentence).
Joannem = John
Margaretam and Margaretae = Margaret
Henerici = Henry
Catherinae = Catherine
Josephi = Joseph
Maria = Mary or Maria

You're fortunate that both mothers' names have been recorded. That evidence enabled heywood to find Joseph Taylor and his wife Margaret on a census. John's mother's full maiden name should, hopefully, be a big help in searching for his birth or baptism in Italy, although the transcriber was unsure if the last part of Catherine's name was Torare.
Witness J.P. Ryan was a priest. Witness Maria/Mary Brown witnessed a wedding the previous day and one the day after. Those marriages were also noted "Jam civiliter". The 3 weddings were all on weekdays. Maria/Mary Brown may have been priests' housekeeper or a woman who was frequently in the church on weekdays.
O.S.M. after the name of Augustine Moore is the abbreviation for the religious order to which the priest belonged.

Jam civiliter means the couple were already married in a civil marriage ceremony. Letters j and i are the same in Latin. The Latin word iam or jam = already. Some other entries in the marriage register have the note "Jam" followed by Latin words for non-Catholic church. The marriage register of St. Michael's contains 31 entries for February 1921. 26 were noted "Jam civiliter" and 3 others were noted as being already married in a non-Catholic church. Those 29 marriage ceremonies were in Lent, Easter Sunday was 27th March. Catholic custom was that marriages were not "solemnised" during Lent as it's not a time for celebration & feasting, so people generally didn't marry in Lent. Those marriages which were noted "Jam civiliter" were probably short, quiet, subdued, private ceremonies.  Average number of weddings per month at St. Michael's was 1-4. February 1921 was an exception. Around half of the first, register office marriage ceremonies happened in World War 1.
Catholic Church law on marriage changed in 1907, requiring a Catholic to marry in a Catholic church, in the bride's parish. The change came into effect at Easter 1908. Prior to 1908, the Catholic Church in England recognised marriages of Catholics in registry offices or churches of other denominations. I think there was another tweak to Catholic canon law on marriage in the next decade.
Those marriage ceremonies at St. Michael's in February 1921 look like a "tidying up" exercise of couples in the parish who married since 1908 but hadn't married in a Catholic church. 5 of the marriages involved people from Italian families. 

28 Marti 1911 = 28th March 1911

Where did the marriage on 28th March 1911 happen? Was it in a registry office?
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 25 May 22 15:27 BST (UK)
I didnít see that but in the past with microfilms, we used to go to a library and scroll through and read them. There was a facility to then print off the one record you need.
It seems old fashioned now.
If you are local, then a visit will be no bother but if you have to travel, it might be best to phone in case you have to book.
going to phone and book in on saturday

Have you found baptisms for John & Margaret's children? You could look for their baptisms while you're there. St. Michael's baptism registers on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website are too early for their children. A baby born to a Catholic family early 20th century would probably have been baptised within a couple of months of birth. If you find any of them, take a note of godparents as they may have been relatives or friends.
If you're allowed to print off or photograph a record you need, we can help with deciphering handwriting + translating Latin. RootsChat has a handwriting & translating section. You could ask for opinions about John's parents' names.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 25 May 22 15:48 BST (UK)
St Michael Ancoats
24th Feb 1921
Joannem Valente
Margaritam Taylor
Grooms parents Henerici Valenti and Catherinae Della Torre
Brides parents Joseph and Margaret Taylor
witnesses M P Ryan and Maria Brown
( Jam civililiter  28th Marti 1911

DID NOT MAKE THE CONNECTION AT FIRST CAN I GET A COPY ANYWHERE

Can you print off the transcription from Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website? See my reply #117 for how to find the entry.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 25 May 22 15:51 BST (UK)
Deleted.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 25 May 22 19:34 BST (UK)
I didnít see that but in the past with microfilms, we used to go to a library and scroll through and read them. There was a facility to then print off the one record you need.
It seems old fashioned now.
If you are local, then a visit will be no bother but if you have to travel, it might be best to phone in case you have to book.
going to phone and book in on saturday

Have you found baptisms for John & Margaret's children? You could look for their baptisms while you're there. St. Michael's baptism registers on Lancashire Online Parish Clerks website are too early for their children. A baby born to a Catholic family early 20th century would probably have been baptised within a couple of months of birth. If you find any of them, take a note of godparents as they may have been relatives or friends.
If you're allowed to print off or photograph a record you need, we can help with deciphering handwriting + translating Latin. RootsChat has a handwriting & translating section. You could ask for opinions about John's parents' names.

didnt think about god parent thank you have helped me lots
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 25 May 22 20:22 BST (UK)
With regard to the baptism records you will want to check, Manchester Catholic Records Index show the following indexes from Latin records for John and Annie Valente.
The different endings to the names is simply the case ending of the word. (I have to go back to learning Latin a long time ago  :) )

https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records

All at St Michaelís Ancoats
1910
Joannes Valenti baptised
Joanni Valenti father of Joannes Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Joannes Valenti

1911
Antonius Valenti baptised
Joannes Valenti father of Antonius Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Antonius Valenti

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Has these births - mentioned before

1910 - John Valente with motherís name Taylor
1911 - John Valente - mother Taylore
1914 - Anthony Valente mother Taylor

These donít quite match but perhaps the second John was baptised Anthony?
There is a death for John 1910.

As Maiden Stone suggests, you will be able to search baptisms too when you visit the library.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 25 May 22 20:51 BST (UK)
With regard to the baptism records you will want to check, Manchester Catholic Records Index show the following indexes from Latin records for John and Annie Valente.
The different endings to the names is simply the case ending of the word. (I have to go back to learning Latin a long time ago  :) )

https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records

All at St Michaelís Ancoats
1910
Joannes Valenti baptised
Joanni Valenti father of Joannes Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Joannes Valenti

1911
Antonius Valenti baptised
Joannes Valenti father of Antonius Valenti
Annae Taylor mother of Antonius Valenti

http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Has these births - mentioned before

1910 - John Valente with motherís name Taylor
1911 - John Valente - mother Taylore
1914 - Anthony Valente mother Taylor

These donít quite match but perhaps the second John was baptised Anthony?
There is a death for John 1910.

As Maiden Stone suggests, you will be able to search baptisms too when you visit the library.

are all these on the st michael church in ancoats
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 25 May 22 20:57 BST (UK)
All at St Michaelís yes.

There are really only the two baptisms - 1910 for John and 1911 for  Antony - both baptisms show that John Valente and Annie Taylor are the parents.

If you go to the Catholic records site I linked (no need to log in) and enter the name Valente (sounded option) there is a list and similarly with Taylor. I restricted to those years.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Wednesday 25 May 22 21:18 BST (UK)
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Manchester/Ancoats/stmichael/index.html   ISORRY I GOT IT LOOKING AT WRONG WEBSITE
 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 25 May 22 21:26 BST (UK)
That site shows the marriage but baptisms only go to 1898.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Saturday 28 May 22 21:06 BST (UK)
hi
   just been to the library looking at the 1921 census

John is Giovanni Valenti of 5 flower Street Oldhan Road
Question 1 is the a reason why they swap from Valente to Valente and back is this just a spelling mistake
as one the 1921 mattiage cert Joanann is Valenti but the father is Valente
We believe John born 1911 and Anthony born 1914 is a son but they are not on the 1921 Census would it make a difference if they were at School

and wrking as a ice cream seller
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Saturday 28 May 22 21:10 BST (UK)
Giovanni Valente was born in Italy at a place registered as Auno as idea where cant find on map
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Saturday 28 May 22 22:15 BST (UK)
There are two deaths registered in Prestwich district in 1914

Anthony Valenti, March quarter 1914
John Valenti, 3 yrs September quarter 1914

Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Saturday 28 May 22 22:33 BST (UK)
Giovanni Valente was born in Italy at a place registered as Auno as idea where cant find on map

There is Enna which is a city and province in Sicily. :-\

If you use Facebook, there is Manchester Italian Association.

I think this might have been posted previously.
https://www.ancoatslittleitaly.com/surnames.html
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Saturday 28 May 22 22:42 BST (UK)
Trying to find that birthplace.p with similar sounding names.

Looking through 1911 birthplaces for Italians in Manchester, there are some born Genoa.

There is a Valente family in Birkenhead b Genoa.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Saturday 28 May 22 23:22 BST (UK)
Trying to find that birthplace.p with similar sounding names.

Looking through 1911 birthplaces for Italians in Manchester, there are some born Genoa.

There is a Valente family in Birkenhead b Genoa.

will th accent and the transciber could be i only got the info on find my past it is hard but hopefully i can pin he birth place down or a marriage cert for catherine della torr
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 29 May 22 11:47 BST (UK)
On the 1939 Register is has ic standing for identy card could i get a copy of this of find out what infomation that was on it i believe it was used for food and call up if Giovanni was italian why would he be on a call as in 1939 he was too old like 60 odd loooking at what other info might be on it
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 29 May 22 12:03 BST (UK)
Back again i bought the copy of the original it has 6 letter to the area not 4 its called Aguino so will look for the area now

mike
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Sunday 29 May 22 12:26 BST (UK)
On the 1939 Register is has ic standing for identy card could i get a copy of this of find out what infomation that was on it i believe it was used for food and call up if Giovanni was italian why would he be on a call as in 1939 he was too old like 60 odd loooking at what other info might be on it

The information on the card is what you see on the 1939 register.
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 29 May 22 15:40 BST (UK)
On the 1939 Register is has ic standing for identy card could i get a copy of this of find out what infomation that was on it i believe it was used for food and call up if Giovanni was italian why would he be on a call as in 1939 he was too old like 60 odd loooking at what other info might be on it


Everyone in Britain was issued with an identity card.
Explanation here. "The 1939 National Identity Card"
https://1911census.org.uk/1939
ID cards were abolished in 1952. A person's ID number was used as their NHS number when the National Health Service was set up after the war.
Everyone was issued with a ration book with coupons for food. Clothing coupons were also issued.

Italy was on the the side of Germany in WW2 and declared war on Britain in June 1940. Giovanni Valente would have been classified as an "enemy alien" from that date if he hadn't already become a British subject.
There were 3 categories of enemy aliens, depending on the risk they were considered to pose to Britain's security. Tribunals were set up to decide in which category a person should be placed. Many  "enemy aliens" were put in internment camps. There were camps in Manchester and Bury.

There are records of enemy aliens on Find My Past.
"Britain, Enemy Aliens & Internees, "First & Second World Wars"
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-world-records/britain-enemy-aliens-and-internees-first-and-second-world-wars
Read explanations in sections "Discover more about these records" and "Available record series".
It says under Second World War that in this series individual index cards record person's name, date & place of birth, nationality, address, occupation, employer's name & address. Some cards have more information on the reverse. However backs of cards in some series haven't been imaged as they may contain sensitive information.
A search for Valente surname found over 100 entries including 2 for the name Giovanni Valente, year of birth 1884.

"Internment of enemy aliens in 1940: The fate of Italians resident in Britain at war"
National Archives website. Men aged 16-70 who had lived in Britain for less than 20 years were considered for internment.

"Enemy Aliens & Internment in England 1939-1940"
https://judeninthemar.org/they-were-the-marens/internment/
This is mostly about Germans and Austrians but is useful because it explains in detail categories A,B & C and explains changes in treatment of enemy aliens during the war.   
 
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Sunday 29 May 22 15:55 BST (UK)
Thanks Maiden Stone. Thatís interesting to know.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Sunday 29 May 22 16:32 BST (UK)
With regard to the baptism records you will want to check, Manchester Catholic Records Index show the following indexes from Latin records for John and Annie Valente.
The different endings to the names is simply the case ending of the word. (I have to go back to learning Latin a long time ago  :) )

https://mlfhs.uk/databases/catholic-records

All at St Michaelís Ancoats

As Maiden Stone suggests, you will be able to search baptisms too when you visit the library.



There are really only the two baptisms - 1910 for John and 1911 for  Antony - both baptisms show that John Valente and Annie Taylor are the parents.


You don't have to concern yourself much with case endings of Latin words, Michael. I get them wrong sometimes, especially when trying to decipher old handwriting. Like heywood, I learned Latin when I was young, at church and school, and have recalled it for family history.

I think there's now a privacy closure period of 110 years for Catholic baptisms in England online. An early 20th century baptism register for the church where I was baptised has recently been added to FindMyPast. Baptisms of elder members of my family are on FindMyPast but not their younger siblings.   
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 29 May 22 17:18 BST (UK)
I ordered the dvd for st Michaels and 3 other church if anyone wants me to look up anything let me when it arrives
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Sunday 29 May 22 17:50 BST (UK)
As Maiden Stone mentions,
Ď Men aged 16-70 who had lived in Britain for less than 20 years were considered for internment. í
so presumably Giovanni/John  would not be considered.

It might be worth contacting the Italian Association as I wrote earlier.  Most members will now be 2nd and 3rd generation, I would think, but there may be records or knowledge of names, and birthplaces there.

I noticed lots of Italian graves in Moston cemetery when I attended a funeral two weeks ago -some of the names which we have noticed here and in a local parish as families moved out of the city centre over the years.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 29 May 22 18:48 BST (UK)
Thank you Everyone for the help
I have contacted two sites on facebook and also getting help there too
 will visit the grave yard maybe tuesday to see if i can spot anything is there a area for italians

mke
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Sunday 29 May 22 20:06 BST (UK)
The ones we saw were at the entrance but you could ask at the office. As it is a Catholic cemetery, there may not be a specific area.
If you have a date of death/burial, you might be able to get a search but in my experience, you have to be quite exact.

There are two Valente burials there in public graves
https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2208572/st.-joseph's-roman-catholic-churchyard
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Sunday 29 May 22 20:10 BST (UK)
i got the death certicate the lived at 2 annesley road moston died 13 july 1945 with margaret valente  as his widow
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Sunday 29 May 22 20:17 BST (UK)
That sounds promising.
I hope you find something.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Maiden Stone on Wednesday 01 June 22 17:31 BST (UK)

I have contacted two sites on facebook and also getting help there too
 

I see that you've posted on Manchester Italian Association FB.
Date for your diary. Manchester Italian Association Madonna Del Rosario Procession on Sunday, 3rd July. Starting 1.15p.m. from George Leigh St., Ancoats.
There may be distant relatives in the procession or among bystanders.   :)
There was an Italian festival in Lancaster last week.
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Monday 13 June 22 20:30 BST (UK)
Still cant find the grave on Giovanni Valente died 13 july 1945 got his birth certificate tried looking for Margaret Valente his widow died 1967 but not getting anything
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Monday 13 June 22 21:10 BST (UK)
There is a newspaper snippet on Find my Past - I canít access it.
However, I can see this which seems to be all.
Manchester Evening News 16th July 1945

On July 13th, fortified by the rites of Holy Mother Church, in hospital. Giovanni , beloved husband of Margaret Valente , aged 70 years. Requiescat in Pace. Interment Wednesday, Moston Cemetery. 3pm.
2 Annesley Road, New Moston

Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Thursday 16 June 22 21:24 BST (UK)
There is a newspaper snippet on Find my Past - I canít access it.
However, I can see this which seems to be all.
Manchester Evening News 16th July 1945

On July 13th, fortified by the rites of Holy Mother Church, in hospital. Giovanni , beloved husband of Margaret Valente , aged 70 years. Requiescat in Pace. Interment Wednesday, Moston Cemetery. 3pm.
2 Annesley Road, New Moston
THANK YOU
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: Michael Craig on Monday 27 June 22 22:04 BST (UK)
Found giovanni and Margaret valente grave phone moston cemetery

Thank you all
Title: Re: John Valente
Post by: heywood on Monday 27 June 22 22:28 BST (UK)
Oh that is good news. I am so pleased for you.
Heywood