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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Angus (Forfarshire) => Topic started by: Moonbabyx on Wednesday 11 May 22 13:32 BST (UK)

Title: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Wednesday 11 May 22 13:32 BST (UK)
Hello! Iím new here and hopefully I have chosen the correct board to post in. I have been down the rabbit hole researching my family tree and Iím in australia so Iím getting confused with some of the Scotland places!

My great grandfather was born in Dundee in 1901 and his mothers name was Jemima Blackie, and on the birth certificate it says Ďillegitimateí which I have now learned is because she probably wasnít married. Iím trying to find more information on the father and the only reason I know his name is John Bange is because I found some school records from the Baldovan Institute School where my great grandfather was sent, and it has under the fathers name ĎJohn Bange Deadí.

So I guess my question is, is there a chance that women would lie back then and says the father was dead or is it most likely that he actually did die? I canít find any death certificates for him so Iím at a loss now.

Hoping someone is able to help me!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: MonicaL on Wednesday 11 May 22 20:40 BST (UK)
Welcome to RootsChat  :)

How old was Jemima Blackie in 1901? It sometimes gives a better clue as to possible age of reputed father.

There is this entry in 1901 for a John Bange for example:

John Bange, 19 b. Cupar, Fife
Private 2nd Royal Highrs at Panmure Barracks in Montrose Angus.

The surname Bange is pretty rare in Scotland. See the entry you found which mentioned father and the fact he was deceased here www.fdca.org.uk/Industrial_School.html

Blackie James
B. 24 Oct 1901 Dundee
16 Ballfield Walk, Dundee
Admitted 23 Jan 1912
09/712
Father John Bange (Dead)
Mother Jemina Blackie

So, window for possible death for reputed father would be 1900 to early 1912 from this it seems.

What, if anything, did your ggrandfather James state for his father's details on his marriage regitration?

Monica

Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: CaroleW on Wednesday 11 May 22 21:59 BST (UK)
Possible marriage for Jemima Blackie in Angus in 1906 - spouse John Robb.  As 1912 info shows her as Blackie - it may not be her marriage

1901 has 2 Jemima Blackie's born & living in Angus - one b 1873 & the other 1881.  If John Bange was b 1882 - the right Jemima will be the one b 1881
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: GR2 on Wednesday 11 May 22 22:30 BST (UK)
The service records of John Bange, the soldier mentioned above, survive. He was 5' 5" tall, weighed 123 lb. and served in South Africa. He was a native of Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, a millworker,  attested at age 18 at Dundee on 17-7-1899 and discharged on 16-3-1912. Next of kin have been scored out and changed over the years. His father was James Bange with a Dundee address, then his mother is given as n.o.k. with a Dundee address, which was finally changed to Gowanbank Cottage. Mossend, Lanarkshire.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 11 May 22 22:32 BST (UK)
There's at least one spelling variant - Beange. They may be others.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 11 May 22 22:34 BST (UK)
He was a native of Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, a millworker,  attested at age 18 at Dundee on 17-7-1899
There is a birth of a John Beange in Garvock in 1881 - not quite Laurencekirk, but not a million miles away.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 11 May 22 22:37 BST (UK)
1891 Census: Cruick Cottage, Stracathro. James Benge, 40, glebe manager, wife Annie and six children including James, 11, born Laurencekirk and John, 9 born Garvock.

In 1901 James and Annie Bange are in Dundee with eight children, not including John.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: GR2 on Wednesday 11 May 22 22:56 BST (UK)
James Beang married Annie Gray 1879, Laurencekirk.

A John Bange, mother's maiden name Gray, died in Perth 1974, aged 92.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Thursday 12 May 22 01:32 BST (UK)
Wow thank you everyone for helping me so quickly! I donít know hot to reply to each person so Iíll try and answer all the questions here.

Jemima Blackie is on James Bange Blackies birth certificate and it says he was born at 57 south tay street, Dundee. Jemima was a jute spinner and she born in 1881.

Jemima did marry John Robb and they had 2 children and I did find a census from 1911 that said James Blackie Ďstepsoní was living with them before he went to the Baldovan School.

I canít find any other information on John Bange but I did also notice that sometimes the name would be spelt Beange which makes it harder! How would I be sure that the same John Bange is the one who served in the military? I donít have any other knowledge of him and Iím trying to help my grandfather find out more because he wasnít told anything growing up.

I havenít been able to get the marriage certificate or death certificate for James Bange Blackie as those records are here in Western Australia and arenít able to be accessed yet.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Thursday 12 May 22 02:25 BST (UK)
He was a native of Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, a millworker,  attested at age 18 at Dundee on 17-7-1899
There is a birth of a John Beange in Garvock in 1881 - not quite Laurencekirk, but not a million miles away.


I have already paid for this one on the Scotlands People site and his father was James and mother was Annie but I donít know how to verify that it would be the correct John bange Iím looking for.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Thursday 12 May 22 02:31 BST (UK)
The service records of John Bange, the soldier mentioned above, survive. He was 5' 5" tall, weighed 123 lb. and served in South Africa. He was a native of Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, a millworker,  attested at age 18 at Dundee on 17-7-1899 and discharged on 16-3-1912. Next of kin have been scored out and changed over the years. His father was James Bange with a Dundee address, then his mother is given as n.o.k. with a Dundee address, which was finally changed to Gowanbank Cottage. Mossend, Lanarkshire.


Iím not sure this would be the right man now because his baby was born in 1901 and he would have been in the military then?
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 12 May 22 08:47 BST (UK)
He was a native of Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, a millworker,  attested at age 18 at Dundee on 17-7-1899
There is a birth of a John Beange in Garvock in 1881 - not quite Laurencekirk, but not a million miles away.


I have already paid for this one on the Scotlands People site and his father was James and mother was Annie but I donít know how to verify that it would be the correct John bange Iím looking for.
What was Annie's maiden surname according to the birth certificate?
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: GR2 on Thursday 12 May 22 09:35 BST (UK)
Iím not sure this would be the right man now because his baby was born in 1901 and he would have been in the military then?

His service records say he served:

At home 17-7-1899 to 29-9-1901
South Africa 30-9-1901 to 22-10-1902
India 23-10-1902 to 14-3-1912
At home 15-3-1912 to 16-3-1912

It is quite possible for John Bange to have done the deed, since he was "At home", i.e. based in the barracks at Montrose (he could have been in Dundee often enough visiting his parents, or Jemima might have been in domestic service in Montrose). I don't know the exact date the child was born, but John was continually out of the country from the end of September 1901 until March 1912. It may well be the case that it was easier to write him off as "dead" when it came to school forms etc.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Thursday 12 May 22 09:47 BST (UK)
He was a native of Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, a millworker,  attested at age 18 at Dundee on 17-7-1899
There is a birth of a John Beange in Garvock in 1881 - not quite Laurencekirk, but not a million miles away.


I have already paid for this one on the Scotlands People site and his father was James and mother was Annie but I donít know how to verify that it would be the correct John bange Iím looking for.
What was Annie's maiden surname according to the birth certificate?

It was Gray.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Thursday 12 May 22 09:49 BST (UK)
Iím not sure this would be the right man now because his baby was born in 1901 and he would have been in the military then?

His service records say he served:

At home 17-7-1899 to 29-9-1901
South Africa 30-9-1901 to 22-10-1902
India 23-10-1902 to 14-3-1912
At home 15-3-1912 to 16-3-1912

It is quite possible for John Bange to have done the deed, since he was "At home", i.e. based in the barracks at Montrose (he could have been in Dundee often enough visiting his parents, or Jemima might have been in domestic service in Montrose). I don't know the exact date the child was born, but John was continually out of the country from the end of September 1901 until March 1912. It may well be the case that it was easier to write him off as "dead" when it came to school forms etc.

Oh okay! He was born in October of 1901 so that could be him then!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: GR2 on Thursday 12 May 22 10:16 BST (UK)
Two possible marriages:

John Bange m Henrietta Edwards, 1914 Dundee

John Bange m Ellen Carter, 1941 Dundee

From Dundee Evening Telegraph 28-6-1937:

BANGE. - At 2 Craigie Street, Dundee, on
the 27th June, Henrietta Edwards
Bange, daughter of the late Henry and
Margaret Edwards. Deeply mourned.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: IMBER on Thursday 12 May 22 10:48 BST (UK)
My understanding of "Home" in service records was that it referred to service anywhere in the United Kingdom. Leave would certainly be easier of course.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: GR2 on Thursday 12 May 22 11:18 BST (UK)
My understanding of "Home" in service records was that it referred to service anywhere in the United Kingdom. Leave would certainly be easier of course.

That is correct, but we know from the census that he spent the night of 31st March 1901 in the barracks in Montrose.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: IMBER on Thursday 12 May 22 11:23 BST (UK)
Thanks GR2. I missed that bit about the census.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Friday 13 May 22 02:39 BST (UK)
Two possible marriages:

John Bange m Henrietta Edwards, 1914 Dundee

John Bange m Ellen Carter, 1941 Dundee

From Dundee Evening Telegraph 28-6-1937:

BANGE. - At 2 Craigie Street, Dundee, on
the 27th June, Henrietta Edwards
Bange, daughter of the late Henry and
Margaret Edwards. Deeply mourned.

These 2 are the same John Bange because Henrietta died and he married Ellen, Iíve found the certificates and they match up. Itís not the John Iím looking for though unfortunately!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 13 May 22 10:38 BST (UK)
Itís not the John Iím looking for though unfortunately!
Why not? Who is this one?
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Friday 13 May 22 11:40 BST (UK)
Itís not the John Iím looking for though unfortunately!
Why not? Who is this one?

Well his mums maiden last name was Grey Iím pretty sure and the other John bange, his mothers maiden name was Howie. BUT on a marriage certificate I found for an Annie Grey & James Bange her mothers name was listed as Annie Howie and there was no father. So Iím sufficiently confused now haha.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 13 May 22 12:17 BST (UK)
Itís not the John Iím looking for though unfortunately!
Why not? Who is this one?

Well his mums maiden last name was Grey Iím pretty sure and the other John bange, his mothers maiden name was Howie. BUT on a marriage certificate I found for an Annie Grey & James Bange her mothers name was listed as Annie Howie and there was no father. So Iím sufficiently confused now haha.
I'm confused too now. Where did you find John B(e)ang(e) with mother's name Howie?

It's not all that rare to come across that sort of confusion, when a grandmother's name is given instead of a mother's. Also, if Annie Gray/Grey's father's name was not listed on her marriage certificate, she may have used her mother's surname at some point.

John Bange, mother's maiden surname Gray, died in Perth in 1974 aged 92. If that death certificate lists his wives as Henrietta Edwards and/or Ellen Carter, I think that would sort out the confusion. But as it's less than 50 years ago you may have to buy the certificate. Alternatively, wait until 1974 deaths are released in 2025. Or appeal here on RC for someone who is going to the Scotland's People Centre to look it up and transcribe the details for you.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 13 May 22 12:42 BST (UK)
Excerpt from the minutes of the Glenbervie Kirk Session.

7 March 1852 .... appeared Ann Howie from Tannachie, and stated that she had born a child in fornication about four months ago, and that James Gray, lately farmservant at Blairerno, was the father thereof, and who had left this neighbourhood - and she was unable to tell whither he had gone or where he might be found. She was admitted to discipline, and being solemnly rebuked and exhorted to repentance was absolved from the scandal. [National Records of Scotland CH2/1150/3/165]

Tannachie and Blairerno are quite close together.
See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.94526&lon=-2.35527&layers=5&b=1

In the 1851 census there are several households of Howies at Tannachie in Glenbervie
(1) David Howie, 62, blacksmith, born Fordoun; wife Elizabeth,62; daughter Hellen, 29, son Joseph, 15, grandson David Smith, 9. All but Davis Smith born Fordoun.
(2) William Howie, 29, Blacksmith journeyman, born Fordoun; wife Mary, 29 and son David, 3.
(3) John Howie, 23, born Fordoun; wife Margaret, 25 and son Robert, 5

In 1841, at Tannachie, are David Howie, 50; Bettie, 50; Ann, 11; Alexander, 8 and Joseph, 6.

Ann Howie, 21, born Fordoun, is a servant in Drumlithie in 1851
Ann Howie, 30, born Fordoun, is a dairymaid at Balfeigh, Fordoun, in 1861
Ann Howie, 39, born Fordoun, is housekeeper at East Tullo, Garvock, in 1871
Ann Howie, 50, born Fordoun, is housekeeper at Bridgemill, Marykirk, in 1881
Ann Howie, 57, born Fordoun, is housekeeper at Bridgend, Marykirk, in 1891
Ann Howie, 66, mmn Tavendale, died in Montrose in 1899.

The only Howie baptism in the Fordoun parish register with mother T*vendale is William, son of David Howie and Eliza Tevendale in 1821, which is an exact match for the age of William in Tannachie in 1851.

Helen Howie, mmn Tavendale, died in Glenbervie in 1858, aged 39
William Howie, mmn Tevendale, died in Glenbervie in 1883, aged 62
Joseph Howie, mmn Tavendale, died in Glenbervie in 1915 aged 77

So I think the inescapable conclusion is that Ann Howie, mother of James Gray's illegitimate daughter Ann, was the daughter of David Howie and Elizabeth T*vendal*.

David Howie, mmn Nicol, died in Glenbervie in 1874 aged 87
Elizabeth T*vendale or Howie, mmn Watson, died in Glenbervie in 1855 aged 66.

Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Friday 13 May 22 13:36 BST (UK)
Itís not the John Iím looking for though unfortunately!
Why not? Who is this one?

Well his mums maiden last name was Grey Iím pretty sure and the other John bange, his mothers maiden name was Howie. BUT on a marriage certificate I found for an Annie Grey & James Bange her mothers name was listed as Annie Howie and there was no father. So Iím sufficiently confused now haha.
I'm confused too now. Where did you find John B(e)ang(e) with mother's name Howie?

It's not all that rare to come across that sort of confusion, when a grandmother's name is given instead of a mother's. Also, if Annie Gray/Grey's father's name was not listed on her marriage certificate, she may have used her mother's surname at some point.

John Bange, mother's maiden surname Gray, died in Perth in 1974 aged 92. If that death certificate lists his wives as Henrietta Edwards and/or Ellen Carter, I think that would sort out the confusion. But as it's less than 50 years ago you may have to buy the certificate. Alternatively, wait until 1974 deaths are released in 2025. Or appeal here on RC for someone who is going to the Scotland's People Centre to look it up and transcribe the details for you.

I actually have that death certificate! I just got it in the mail. It says John Bange, he was a builders watchman. He was widowed and his wifeís maiden name was Nell.
He lived in Aberfeldy (I think thatís what it says), his fathers name was James Bange and mothers name was Annie Bange (Gray). The informants name is Thomas Bange - nephew.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 13 May 22 14:04 BST (UK)
I actually have that death certificate! I just got it in the mail. It says John Bange, he was a builders watchman. He was widowed and his wifeís maiden name was Nell.
Nell is a variant of Helen/Ellen. Does it not give her maiden surname?

Quote
He lived in Aberfeldy (I think thatís what it says), his fathers name was James Bange and mothers name was Annie Bange (Gray). The informants name is Thomas Bange - nephew.
So where did you come across the reference to his mother's surname being Howie?
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: GR2 on Friday 13 May 22 21:44 BST (UK)
Having looked at the 1901 census for Angus and Dundee on ScotlandsPeople, searching for all Johns with a surname beginning with B, It is clear that the father is John Bange the soldier. There is no other John Bange and no others with a name close enough.

He was in the right place at the right time (there are references in the newspapers at the time the child was conceived to his regiment being in Montrose and the census shows him there).

The fact that he left the country before the child was actually born and did not return until 1912 will account for him being listed as deceased on the school document.

The soldier's parents are given as James Bange and Annie in his service papers and this, together with his age and birthplace on the 1901 census, makes it clear that Annie was Annie Gray.

I will send you a personal message so that you can get a copy of the service record.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Saturday 14 May 22 01:05 BST (UK)
Having looked at the 1901 census for Angus and Dundee on ScotlandsPeople, searching for all Johns with a surname beginning with B, It is clear that the father is John Bange the soldier. There is no other John Bange and no others with a name close enough.

He was in the right place at the right time (there are references in the newspapers at the time the child was conceived to his regiment being in Montrose and the census shows him there).

The fact that he left the country before the child was actually born and did not return until 1912 will account for him being listed as deceased on the school document.

The soldier's parents are given as James Bange and Annie in his service papers and this, together with his age and birthplace on the 1901 census, makes it clear that Annie was Annie Gray.

I will send you a personal message so that you can get a copy of the service record.

Thank you so much for all of this help!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Saturday 14 May 22 01:12 BST (UK)
I actually have that death certificate! I just got it in the mail. It says John Bange, he was a builders watchman. He was widowed and his wifeís maiden name was Nell.
Nell is a variant of Helen/Ellen. Does it not give her maiden surname?

Quote
He lived in Aberfeldy (I think thatís what it says), his fathers name was James Bange and mothers name was Annie Bange (Gray). The informants name is Thomas Bange - nephew.
So where did you come across the reference to his mother's surname being Howie?

On the marriage certificate between a John bange and Henrietta edwards, it has his parents listed at James Bange and Annie Bange (Howie).
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 14 May 22 07:37 BST (UK)
John Bange had a younger sister named Jeannie born in 1894.
She also has motherís name as Annie Howie on her death certificate in 1944 (USA )
And a brother Charles Bange born 1890, records his motherís name as Howie on his death in 1974
So Annie Grayís other name, Howie, was known in the family.

This is her Baptism
GRAY   ANN     F   08/03/1852   261/    20 91   Glenbervie
Parents: JAMES GRAY  /  ANN HOWIE   

______________________
Following on from Forfarianís  Reply #23

Ann Howie in 1841 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344cfe9379091b12a8573/ann-howie-1841-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

Ann Howie in 1851 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034565e9379091b12cc7e7/ann-howie-1851-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

In 1871 census Ann Gray age 19, is working as a Servant in Gavrock
In 1861 census Ann Gray age 9, boarding with Elizabeth Bruce (nee Howie) in Fordoun

This Elizabeth (Howie) Bruce must be related to Ann Howieís family.
Elizabeth was born 1819 in Birse, daughter of Robert Howie and Mary Burnett
This is her family in 1841:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344a1e9379091b129d06c/robert-huie-1841-kincardineshire-benholm-1791-?locale=en

Looking at the records - Elizabethís father Robert Howie was the brother of David Howie who was father of Ann Howie, grandfather of Ann Gray
Both were sons of Robert Howie and Ann Nicol who married 20 Nov 1784 in Fordoun

Baptisms of children of Robert Howie / Huie and Ann Nicol
ē   Elizabeth 1785
ē   Robert 1787
ē   David 1789
ē   Mary 1791
ē   Helen 1795
It looks as if the father Robert may have died in 1795 Fordoun, age 38
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Saturday 14 May 22 07:53 BST (UK)
John Bange had a younger sister named Jeannie born in 1894.
She also has motherís name as Annie Howie on her death certificate in 1944 (USA )
And a brother Charles Bange born 1890, records his motherís name as Howie on his death in 1974
So Annieís Grayís other name, Howie, was known in the family.

This is her Baptism
GRAY   ANN     F   08/03/1852   261/    20 91   Glenbervie
Parents: JAMES GRAY  /  ANN HOWIE   

______________________
Following on from Forfarianís  Reply #23

Ann Howie in 1841 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344cfe9379091b12a8573/ann-howie-1841-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

Ann Howie in 1851 census for Glenbervie
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59034565e9379091b12cc7e7/ann-howie-1851-kincardineshire-glenbervie-1830-?locale=en

In 1871 census Ann Gray age 19, is working as a Servant in Gavrock
In 1861 census Ann Gray age 9, boarding with Elizabeth Bruce (nee Howie) in Fordoun

This Elizabeth (Howie) Bruce must be related to Ann Howieís family.
Elizabeth was born 1819 in Birse, daughter of Robert Howie and Mary Burnett
This is her family in 1841:
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590344a1e9379091b129d06c/robert-huie-1841-kincardineshire-benholm-1791-?locale=en

Looking at the records - Elizabethís father Robert Howie was the brother of David Howie who was father of Ann Howie, grandfather of Ann Gray
Both were sons of Robert Howie and Ann Nicol who married 20 Nov 1784 in Fordoun

Baptisms of children of Robert Howie / Huie and Ann Nicol
ē   Elizabeth 1785
ē   Robert 1787
ē   David 1789
ē   Mary 1791
ē   Helen 1795
It looks as if the father Robert may have died in 1795 Fordoun, age 38

Wow! Okay so the Annie Gray is the same as the Annie Howie then? Thank you so much for looking all of this up for me!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 14 May 22 08:13 BST (UK)
You are welcome.
As Ann Howie never married, and did not die until 1899, it is quite probable that she was in contact with the Bange family.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 09:01 BST (UK)
Wow! Okay so the Annie Gray is the same as the Annie Howie then?
No. Annie Howie is the mother of Annie Gray.

No doubt there was some misunderstanding at the registrar's when John came to register his marriage to Henrietta Edwards.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Saturday 14 May 22 09:38 BST (UK)
Wow! Okay so the Annie Gray is the same as the Annie Howie then?
No. Annie Howie is the mother of Annie Gray.

No doubt there was some misunderstanding at the registrar's when John came to register his marriage to Henrietta Edwards.

Ohhhh right okay!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 14 May 22 09:49 BST (UK)
I wonder if the confusion is because Annie Gray, never knew her father, and only her mother Annie Howie. She does not seem to have had contact with the Gray family at all. Although baptised with the surname Gray, Annie may have thought of herself as a ďHowieĒ.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 10:21 BST (UK)
As Annie Gray was illegitimate, she may also have been known as Annie Howie.

Finding her father is likely to prove impossible. Annie Gray was born about November 1851, so he must have been at Blairerno in the early months of 1851. However he is not enumerated in the household there in the 1851 census, which means that he had moved on before 30 March 1851.

FreeCEN returns 263 James Grays aged 18 to 38.

Of these, 89 are sons living with one or both parents, who can probably be discounted because Annie Howie would surely have known where James Gray's family were, and would have told the Kirk Session.

That only leaves 174 possibles. Many could be eliminated by looking to see if they were married. If so, then Annie Howie's sin was adultery, not fornication, and the Kirk Session would have taken an even dimmer view of the event.

You could probably narrow it down to a couple of dozen likely candidates by eliminating those with incompatible occupations.



Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Neale1961 on Saturday 14 May 22 10:47 BST (UK)
Yes,I agree. I too looked to see which young men named James Gray were about, and came to the same conclusion, that there were too many possibilities to have any certainty.
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Moonbabyx on Saturday 14 May 22 10:57 BST (UK)
As Annie Gray was illegitimate, she may also have been known as Annie Howie.

Finding her father is likely to prove impossible. Annie Gray was born about November 1851, so he must have been at Blairerno in the early months of 1851. However he is not enumerated in the household there in the 1851 census, which means that he had moved on before 30 March 1851.

FreeCEN returns 263 James Grays aged 18 to 38.

Of these, 89 are sons living with one or both parents, who can probably be discounted because Annie Howie would surely have known where James Gray's family were, and would have told the Kirk Session.

That only leaves 174 possibles. Many could be eliminated by looking to see if they were married. If so, then Annie Howie's sin was adultery, not fornication, and the Kirk Session would have taken an even dimmer view of the event.

You could probably narrow it down to a couple of dozen likely candidates by eliminating those with incompatible occupations.

Okay well at least I have a lot to start with now. Thanks to you guys I wouldnít have found the real John Bange yet so thank you so much, Iíve been doing this for weeks now and I was at a dead end. I really appreciate all the help!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 13:46 BST (UK)
I discovered how to import data from FreeCEN to a spreadsheet, so I imported the 263 James Grays aged 18 to 38 in the 1851 census.

Then I eliminated any who were living with relatives, any who were married, and any who had an occupation other than labourer, farm servant etc. That left me with 30 possibles. Details attached.

However, it may be that my assumptions are incorrect, and/or that there are more James Grays in parishes which have not yet been added to FreeCEN.

My money's on the 30-year-old from Lancashire who's boarding in St Cyrus. But there's not a shred of proof!
Title: Re: JOHN BANGE
Post by: Rosinish on Sunday 15 May 22 04:14 BST (UK)
My money's on the 30-year-old from Lancashire who's boarding in St Cyrus. But there's not a shred of proof!

It's quite possible DNA would prove that theory.

Annie