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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Berwickshire => Topic started by: RickyJack on Friday 13 May 22 04:16 BST (UK)

Title: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: RickyJack on Friday 13 May 22 04:16 BST (UK)
Hi, Just helping a friend as he said there are 106 familytrees with Ancestry and no one can get past
John Young 1796-1880
married 1817 Inverness-shire to Margaret Thomson 1797-,
 their son William Swanston Young born 22 April 1825 Coldingham Berwickshire died 1904 Ulverstone Tasmania
married Sarah Oliver born 1826 Oldhamstocks East Lothian died 1890.
Much information available for William and Families in Tassie , nothing for John or his parents...
Appreciate any help
Rick in Tasmania
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 13 May 22 09:48 BST (UK)
Tell your friend to forget about Ancestry. You cannot trust anything you find there without checking the original documents.

See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

The only baptism of a William Young to John Young and Margaret Thom(p)son in the surviving Scottish records is in Borthwick in 1822. Borthwick is a parish not far from Musselburgh. This William was born on 22 April 1822 and baptised on 13 May 1822. Note that the day and month match those of your friend's William Swanston Young.

William Young and Sarah Oliver had three children before they emigrated. One of these, John, was born in Fogo on 27 March 1855. Scottish 1855 birth certificates contain information not recorded in other years, so I invested 6 credits to look it up. It says that William Young was a hind (farm worker), aged 32, born Borthwick. See the attachment.

This exactly matches the baptism in Borthwick; William would have had his 32nd birthday in 1854, but would not yet have turned 33 on the date of John's birth.

Therefore the information on Ancestry can be proved wrong on two counts; date of birth and parish of birth.

Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: RickyJack on Saturday 14 May 22 00:08 BST (UK)
Thankyou very much for your information and Attachment...not sure of the value of 6 credits but happy to repay..
confirms that Williams parents were John Young and Margaret Thomson and Borthwick.
I read the link also...so true...so many what I call "number counters" one commercial company with their auto search allows you to load their entire tree onto yours in a race to get as many people into your tree as possible ..being correct seems to be of little concern.
Thanks again
Rick
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 09:10 BST (UK)
confirms that Williams parents were John Young and Margaret Thomson

You say that John Young died in 1880. Where did he die? And where did his year of birth, and that of his wife, come from?

Don't give a thought to the credits. 6 credits costs less than half of what most Starbucks coffees cost.

Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 14 May 22 20:30 BST (UK)
Rick, can I ask you a question?

Where did the names of William's parents come from? Do they show on his Tasmanian documents?

I ask because of William's middle name of Swanston. There is a christening entry for a Catherine Aitchison Young in 1818, parents John Young and Margaret Swanston. The christening shows in Stow, Midlothian. This Catherine married a John Gillie and lived her life in Berwickshire.

From here www.cocker.id.au/young/index.php - the name of William and Sarah's children (in order of birth?):

    John
    Sarah Fair
    Margaret Swanston
    Isabella Clark
    Elizabeth May
    Catherine (Katie)
    Wilhelmina and
    Andrew Oliver

Sarah's parents Andrew Oliver and Sarah Fair?

Monica
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 21:42 BST (UK)
Hmmm. You've got me wondering now.

It is odd that William and Sarah named their second daughter Margaret Swanston if William's mother was Margaret Thomson.

It's also curious, I think, to find a ploughman marrying, in Inverness, a woman from the Black Isle, and then, after having a daughter in Inverness, turning up a few years later almost 200 miles away in Borthwick.

Could there have been two John Youngs married to two Margaret Thomsons, one couple in Inverness and the other in Midlothian?

Might Margaret Thomson have been the second wife of the Midlothian John Young, his first wife being Margaret Swanston? The corollary of that is that would have had to be two different couples, and the record of the second marriage would have to be missing.

I notice also that the trees quoted originally say that John Young was born in 1796, but the Cocker web site says he was born in 1788. Why the discrepancy? Also that Margaret Thomson was born in 1797. What are the sources of these dates?
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: RickyJack on Saturday 14 May 22 21:55 BST (UK)
Hi MonicaL
How this came about was I talked my good mate into having a DNA done if I did the paper work  Mr Cocker [your link] contacted me ...he told me....
We share William Swanston Young as 2G grandfathers but I have so far failed to trace him beyond his birth
I googled this name and up came the story of being an elderly man who helped out in the stables, tending the horses for the local merchants in Ulverstone about an hours drive from my place. apparently one day he just dropped dead in the stable, so apart from the familytree on that link I really dont know much more...Ancestry trees all the same, not many actually have any sources at all
Borthwick and Berwick seem to be the places of interest for this family
Many Cheers Rick
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 14 May 22 22:44 BST (UK)
I wondered about this 1841 census entry in Westruther, Berwickshire :

John Young 70 agr. lab.
William Young 15
Cathrine Young 20

They are all showing as born out of the county so not sure. The Catherine I mentioned earlier was born in Midlothian though so it could well fit for her. William? Would be good to find him in 1851 to confirm details for him further.

Added: If this is him in 1851 www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=74001042 ...he is not helping  ;)

Monica
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 22:44 BST (UK)
I see where Coldingham came from now.

The tree on the Cocker web side shows the birthplaces of the three eldest children of William and Sarah as 'Park Foggo, Coldingham'. This is incorrect.

Coldingham and Fogo are neighbouring and mutually exclusive parishes in Berwickshire; by definition any place in Fogo is not in Coldingham, and vice versa.

John Young's birth was registered in the parish of Fogo, and the actual address where he was born is Sisterpath Waulkmill. See this map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16&lat=55.72810&lon=-2.38720&layers=5&b=1 and https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT7548.

The Ordnance Survey Name Book (1856-1858) describes it as follows: A farmhouse situated on the [-] bank of the Blackadder at the foot of [-] slope which gradually rises towards [-] North, the dwellinghouse and Offices [-] in good repair and the attached Mil[Mill] [-] which long ago was used as "Waulk [-] or mill for thickening blankets an[and] [-] other Worsted Stuffs from which t[the] [-] farm has derived its name, has been [-] altered in machinery and converted into a Thrash[Thrashing] [-] There was formerly a considerable in[industry] situated in the neighbourhood, inh[-] be a number of tradesmen. Brewers [-] of which some scattered trees are [-] only remains now visible. Richar[Richard] Trotter of Mortonhall is the proprietor of the farm.

The births of Sarah Fair Young and Margaret Swanston Young were both registered in the parish of Coldingham.  Sarah was born at Howpark, Coldingham and Margaret in Renton Cottage, Coldingham. Howpark and Renton are next door to one another. See map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=55.88410&lon=-2.28149&layers=5&b=1 and photographs at https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT8265 and
https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NT8266

Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 22:46 BST (UK)
I wondered about this 1841 census entry in Westruther, Berwickshire
Excellent find, Monica :)
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 14 May 22 22:52 BST (UK)

Added: If this is him in 1851 www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=74001042 ...he is not helping  ;)

I just saw the mention of Fogo which might connect with the location on this 1851 census entry?

Monica
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: RickyJack on Saturday 14 May 22 22:52 BST (UK)
Hi Forfarian, Thankyou..next coffee I have Ill think of your generosity ..
More questions than answers...
Looking around the commercial sites John Young and Margaret Thomson married 19 Feb 1817 Inverness....I could not find any copies of original docs...then this
1851 census
John Young born 1796 Strathanen Lanarkshire age 55 General Labourer
Margaret young born abt 1805 Strathanen Lanarkshire age 46 a Washer
could these be the same people
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 22:56 BST (UK)
Added: If this is him in 1851 www.scottishindexes.com/51transcript.aspx?houseid=74001042 ...he is not helping  ;)
Oh, I think he is. He's at Sisterpath Waulkmill, which is exactly where William and Sarah's first child, John, was born 4 years later.
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 14 May 22 22:57 BST (UK)
I would say not. There are many couples with the same names which is why it is important to try to check and verify details or it is easy to go down the wrong road. You can't tell from that census entry what this Margaret's maiden name could be without researching her further.

Monica
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 14 May 22 22:59 BST (UK)

Oh, I think he is. It's at Sisterpath Waulkmill, which is exactly where William and Sarah's first child, John, was born 4 years later.

Looks promising then for him.

This looks like potential sister Catherine's death (age a little light by a few years if she was born c. 1818):

Catherine YOUNG
Age 78
Mother's maiden name SWANSTON
1905
775/ 88
Galashiels

Monica
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 23:03 BST (UK)
1851 census
John Young born 1796 Strathanen Lanarkshire age 55 General Labourer
Margaret young born abt 1805 Strathanen Lanarkshire age 46 a Washer
could these be the same people
No, I think not.

The Inverness marriage says that the Margaret Thomson who married John Young there in 1817 was from Redcastle,  in Ross and Cromarty.

That census is in Glasgow, and the birthplace is Strathaven, which is the only town in the parish of Avondale in Lanarkshire. It is also a long way from Inverness.
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Saturday 14 May 22 23:05 BST (UK)
This looks like potential sister Catherine's death (age a little light by a few years if she was born c. 1818):
Catherine YOUNG
Age 78
Mother's maiden name SWANSTON
1905
775/ 88
Galashiels
Since she is also indexed as Gillie, there's no doubt about it.
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Saturday 14 May 22 23:47 BST (UK)
Leap of faith here...in other words...pure speculation  ;)

Again, working with names. We have the name of Catherine Aitchison Young. I wondered whether the name of Catherine Aitchison could connect to either the Young or Swanston side.

I found this christening entry in Dunbar Midlothian:

ISABELLA HALL SWANSTON
Parents WILLIAM SWANSTON/CATHERINE AITCHESON
28/08/1776
Ref 706/30 49
Dunbar

Not Margaret Swanston, but a sister?

So (and this, as mentioned, are pure guesses) if we have the right line for William through this couple, namely John Young and Margaret Swanston, could he have been called after his maternal grandfather and sister Catherine after her maternal grandmother?

Monica

Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: MonicaL on Sunday 15 May 22 00:30 BST (UK)
Another child for John Young and Margaret Swanston:

Alison YOUNG
Parents JOHN YOUNG/MARGARET SWAINSTON
12/11/1815
Ref 699/30 117
Stow

Her death:

Alison YOUNG/ COLLIER
Age 65
Mother's maiden name SWANSTON
1882
775/ 112
Galashiels

I think Alison Young married an Andrew Collier. Her marriage:

Alison Young and Andrew Collier
Marriage 22 May 1846 Stow, Midlothian
Father: John Young

Monica
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Sunday 15 May 22 09:03 BST (UK)
Lots of leaps there, but I am with you in the speculation.

If that household in Westruther is father, daughter and son, they would certainly match John Young with Catherine from his first marriage to Margaret Swanston and William from his second to Margaret Thomson.

Unless of course Margaret Thomson is an error for Margaret Swanston.

In either case the Inverness one is definitely unconnected, because Catherine's DoB in 1818 is after the Inverness marriage in 1817 and the baptism of Isabell later the same year. And it would follow from that that the 106 trees on Anc* are wrong (surprise, surprise - not), and that the Cocker tree is also wrong.

We really, really need to know where the names of William's parents came from - is his mother named on his death certificate, or has someone found the baptism in Borthwick and just assumed it must be the right person? 

But then the information on John's birth certifcate exactly matches the baptism in Borthwick ???

It would be much neater all round if William was another unrecorded child of John Young and Margaret Swanston, and Margaret Thomson is either a red herring or an error for Margaret Swanston.
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: RickyJack on Thursday 19 May 22 02:48 BST (UK)
Apologies for the delay...waiting to hear back he wrote...
That really does help. I had not seen John’s birth registration.  The family bible (in my possession) shows William’s date of birth as 1825 and his obituary states he “was close on 80” when he died in March 1904.  But John’s birth records does indeed prove it was 1822 and that makes all the other details come together.
all good Thankyou both for your effort
Cheers from Tasmania Rick
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 27 May 22 11:15 BST (UK)
There are still a couple of questions outstanding.

In your first post you say that John Young died in 1880. The oldest John Young who died in Scotland in 1880-1881 was 79 so he is too young to have been born in 1796. So where did this death date come from, and where did John Young die?

Also where did Margaret Thom(p)son's date of birth 1797 from?

Where did John Young's DoB of 1788 on the Cocker tree come from? (It's even more incompatible with a death in Scotland in 1880.)

Also, where did the names of William's parents originally come from? Are they on his death certificate or on any other original document in Tasmania?
Title: Re: William Swanston Young Coldingham Berwickshire 1825 died 1904 Tasmania
Post by: Forfarian on Friday 27 May 22 11:46 BST (UK)
There's a death of James Young, mother Swantson, in 1871 in Edinburgh. It's incorrectly indexed - he is indeed a son of John Young and Margaret Swanston. Aged 59, so if that's correct he was born 1811/1812.

He married Janet/Jessie Hume in Gordon in 1838. Six recorded children 1839-1853.

From census transcriptions:

In 1841 they're at the Stable, Legerwood, Berwickshire, James shown as 25 (-> YoB 1811/1816) and not born in Berwickshire.

In 1851 they're in Burnfoot, Stow, Midlothian, James shown as 37 (-> YoB 1813/1814) and born in Humbie, East Lothian.

In 1861 they're at Fountainhall Station, Stow, James shown as 47, born Kelso, Roxburghshire.

In 1871, same address, James is a widower, aged 59 (-> YoB 1811/1812), born Humbie.

I wonder if he is the James Y, baptised 20 December 1813 in Humbie, parents John Y and Mary Swanston? Mary could be an error for Marg? There are no other children of John Y and Mary Sw*nst*.