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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 03:36 BST (UK)

Title: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 03:36 BST (UK)
Frederick William (Frank) Poore, born Christchurch, NZ in 1882, was my great grandfather. Sometime around 1911 he left Christchurch, New Zealand for Australia, supposedly on the run from the law (I can't find any arrest warrant however), leaving behind my great grandmother and 2 children.  He was never to be heard of again, and searches by the family at the time, and me on the internet since, can find no trace of him. 

However the other day, I have a new close DNA match with an unknown relative (probably a 2nd cousin), who is obviously a Poore descendent by the shared matches.  He has no idea of his grandmother Marjorie Dollie Barton's genesis, with family history saying she was born circa 1915, with father "Smith" and mother Mollie Kennedy.  I have since purchased Marjorie's marriage certificate, and it tells me that she married Vincent Lawrence in 1936, she was born in Kempsey, New South Wales, and her parents are Harry Barton and Mollie Duffy. I can also see her in the electoral roll in 1934, living in Korumburra, Victoria, with Frederick and Nellie May Barton.

My question is how can I proceed with this information?  I am having no luck with birth certificates for Marjorie Dollie, I can't find anything to do with Harry Barton, "Smith" and Mollie Duffy/Kennedy, and I am generally lost for ideas.  There is also a brother for Marjorie who goes under the name of Ted Smith, and I can find even less about him. I am convinced that "Smith" is Frederick William Poore, for a number of reasons, but how to find out any more about him from all of this, eludes me right now.
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 04:04 BST (UK)
I have checked out Frederick and Nelly May Barton - they seem legitimately real people.  Frederick Barton married Nelly May Selwood in 1918, and he seems to definitely be born in Croyden, England in 1883, to Phoebe Pearce and Frederick Barton. I can find his birth entry on GRO, so everything checks out.  With the name Frederick I had wondered if he was Frederick William Poore, but apparently not. 

It does make "Harry Barton" even more mysterious, as I can find brothers to Frederick of Edward born in 1885, William born in 1889, and Charles Henry in 1896 - maybe Charles Henry is Harry.
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 14 May 22 04:18 BST (UK)
BARTON, MARJORIE
38451/1913
Father: HARRY F
Mother: MARY J
KEMPSEY

He has no idea of his grandmother Marjorie Dollie Barton's genesis, with family history saying she was born circa 1915, with father "Smith" and mother Mollie Kennedy.

What does this mean?  Oral family history?

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 04:20 BST (UK)
Yes oral history, from Marjorie's son.  I don't think they have much in the way of documentation at all.

The birth certificate looks interesting. I wasn't really expecting it to be in the name of Barton, maybe Kennedy, Duffy or Smith, but we do have Harry here, and Mollie is a nickname for Mary. 
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 14 May 22 04:40 BST (UK)


If you are researching the origins of this Marjorie Dolly BARTON, and you have the marriage certificate, can you please list all the information that you see on the document.

VIC BDM marriage
5373/1936   BARTON  Marj Dolly    marr.  LAWRENCE, Vincent Jos

Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 14 May 22 04:41 BST (UK)
He was a bootmaker born in Christchurch NZ c1881.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Gallery151/dist/JGalleryViewer.aspx?B=3054774

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/233810974

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 14 May 22 05:06 BST (UK)
From that AAF record

He is 32 years and 9 months old on 23 October 1914

Frederick William POORE’s actual date of birth is 21 January 1882.

Add 32 years and 9 mths to that and I think you get October 1914

I cannot see a Henry Frederick Barton Birth on NZ records
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 14 May 22 05:18 BST (UK)
The second enlistment in 1917 states his occupation as 'salesman' which is the same as Frederick POORE.  NOK is father Henry Francis BARTON of Hereford Street, Christchurch, so father's name and address is also the same, except the surname is of course POORE, not BARTON.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 14 May 22 05:22 BST (UK)

Several records NAA including this, with address for NOK Hereford St Lynwood Christchurch -

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6512944


Search burials Bromley Cemetery  (same plot)
https://heritage.christchurchcitylibraries.com/Cemeteries/Search.asp

POORE Henry Francis  died 15 Nov 1933, buried 17 Nov 1933
age 83y, NZ 69y   music teacher

POORE Mary               died 14 Jun 1836, buried 16 Jun 1936
age 85y, NZ 85y widow


Press 15 Jun 1938 p1
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19380615.2.6?
POORE—On June 14, 1938, at her residence, 19 Shrewsbury street, Merivale, Mary, widow of the late Henry Francis POORE, late of 451 Hereford street; in her 86th year. Private interment.
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 14 May 22 05:56 BST (UK)
Marriage

14173/1921
BARTON, HENRY F
BARRETT, DORA
SYDNEY

Death

BARTON, HENRY FREDERICK
5106/1948
Father: HENRY FRANCIS
Mother: MARY
LIVERPOOL

Obviously the next step is to get Marjorie's birth cert to find her mother's maiden surname.  There must be some relationship between your Frederick and Frederick BARTON of Korumburra for him to borrow the surname and for the daughter to be living with them.  Perhaps the connection is through the women in the family.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 14 May 22 06:02 BST (UK)
WW2 service, he has found the fountain of youth.

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=5688020

Birth

BARTON, IRENE M
47023/1921
Father: HENRY F
Mother: DORA
MARRICKVILLE

Marriage

21942/1949
ATKINSON, WILFRED ERIC
BARTON, IRENE MAY
SYDNEY

The last few pages of the WW2 service record show his daughter applying for his medals.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: Dundee on Saturday 14 May 22 06:11 BST (UK)
.... her parents are Harry Barton and Mollie Duffy.

There is also a brother for Marjorie who goes under the name of Ted Smith

Marriage

12559/1915
SMITH, EDWARD
DUFFY, MARY J
PORT MACQUARIE

Birth

SMITH, EDWARD G
33513/1916
Father: EDWARD
Mother: MARY J
PORT MACQUARIE

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 14 May 22 06:41 BST (UK)

New Zealand Times 28 Nov 1919 p18     (POORE divorce)
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/NZTIM19191128.2.104?
....middleaged woman Mary POORE
....married 1903
...lived in various places in NSW and NZ
....2 children b. 1904...1907
....he sold the house 1907
.....has not seen him since 1911...


Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 14 May 22 07:10 BST (UK)
Had he been in Sydney prior to his marriage?  Or is this just puffery?

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CHP19101013.2.13.3?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=F.+W.+Poore&snippet=true&title=TS%2cSUNCH%2cCHP
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: sparrett on Saturday 14 May 22 09:10 BST (UK)
Marriage

14173/1921
BARTON, HENRY F
BARRETT, DORA
SYDNEY

Death

BARTON, HENRY FREDERICK
5106/1948
Father: HENRY FRANCIS
Mother: MARY
LIVERPOOL

Obviously the next step is to get Marjorie's birth cert to find her mother's maiden surname.  There must be some relationship between your Frederick and Frederick BARTON of Korumburra for him to borrow the surname and for the daughter to be living with them.  Perhaps the connection is through the women in the family.

Debra  :)

Nellie was nee SELWOOD



Marriage
Nellie May SELWOOD
Frederick BARTON
Victoria   

This looks like her brother’s death notice and it lists some family. 1950
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206400303

Sue

ADDING details of the SELWOOD/BARTON wedding with relatives noted. 1918

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/154159433
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 14:42 BST (UK)
Everyone I am just amazed. You have solved a 110 year old family mystery. As soon as I saw that Harry Barton had given his parents to be Henry Francis and Mary, and they lived in Hereford Street, I knew these had to be the same man.  But you have gone above and beyond and supplied me with the beginnings of an alternative family history, and even more to investigate.

I want to know what this Barton connection is as well - why does Marjorie Barton end up living with them, and why does she say Harry Barton is dead when she marries in 1936...  Also in 1914 on those attestation papers, Harry Barton says his wife is Mary J Barton - had he actually married Mollie, in which case he manages to be a bigamist as well as a fraud!  But she is married to Edward Smith in 1915, so it seems unlikely that Harry and Mollie were married.

So many questions, and I assume more than a few lies...
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 14:48 BST (UK)
All the details people have supplied are correct too - my great grandmother divorced him on grounds of desertion in 1919. I obtained the divorce records, and it said they had lived in both Christchurch and Sydney. I had never seen the Sydney shoe shop notice before - that was a complete surprise to me, but it must be him.  Come to think of it, all of this is a complete surprise to me - the shoe shop is probably the least of it!
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Saturday 14 May 22 14:50 BST (UK)
However I don't think anyone has actually answered my question, as to what my next steps should be....  Maybe look at Australian Army records would be a good idea!
Thanks everyone - really just remarkable.
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: mckha489 on Saturday 14 May 22 21:06 BST (UK)


Obviously the next step is to get Marjorie's birth cert to find her mother's maiden surname.  There must be some relationship between your Frederick and Frederick BARTON of Korumburra for him to borrow the surname and for the daughter to be living with them.  Perhaps the connection is through the women in the family.

Debra  :)

I was interested to see a Mrs Smith gave the horse shoe at the wedding linked earlier.

Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: wivenhoe on Saturday 14 May 22 23:31 BST (UK)


" my great grandmother divorced him on grounds of desertion in 1919. I obtained the divorce records, and it said they had lived in both Christchurch and Sydney."

Where did they marry?
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 15 May 22 00:26 BST (UK)
1903/2818   Mary Elizabeth   Moody   Frederick William   Poores
18th June.

although it says June 1908 in the newspaper article for the divorce.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/DOM19191128.2.99?items_per_page=10&phrase=2&query=frederick+William+poore&snippet=true
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Sunday 15 May 22 03:33 BST (UK)
They married in the garden of Mary Moody's family home according to the marriage records.  Definitely in 1903 not 1908 - I think that is just an ink splodge making the 3 look like an 8.

I have ordered the very expensive birth certificate of Marjorie - the NSW charges are extortionate.  I am going to go back and order a few records of Harry Barton as well - I will be bankrupt by the end of this, but I will die happy, if impoverished...

Interestingly Harry Barton is represented on both ancestry and familysearch, so I will be in contact with those families. I hope they find it interesting and not threatening at this point in time.  Actually I have just received contact from one of Irene Atkinson's sons a moment ago - this really is a brick wall broken down! He only recently found out that Harry Barton had a family in New Zealand earlier, and was trying to make progress himself.
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: sparrett on Sunday 15 May 22 04:27 BST (UK)
Hi
You don't need a copy of the original certificate unless you are seeking to match signatures etc.

This is the way to go  ;D
https://nswtranscriptions.com.au/

All the information for $20 or so if you pick your timing.

Sue
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 15 May 22 04:37 BST (UK)
You have the 1903 marriage certificate?

Can you please list all the information on this document.
Title: Re: Frederick William (Frank) Poore - advice on where to look
Post by: zumaro on Friday 20 May 22 10:59 BST (UK)
Thanks again for the help everyone.  Using the transcription service, I have now got a copy of Frank Poore's death record, only to learn that he actually committed suicide by "self administered poison".  So a sad end for who appears to be a very complicated person. Maybe the constant returning to war service represents some kind of inability to deal with his life - I get the feeling of maybe a somewhat tormented soul.
Anyway I am now making good progress on putting information together - indeed there is a lot out there on Harry Barton, rather than Frank Poore!