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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Jason Jase on Saturday 04 June 22 17:30 BST (UK)

Title: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Saturday 04 June 22 17:30 BST (UK)
I am stuck on finding any info on my 3x great grandparents. Before 1851  I have no information on them. After that date I have a load of information on them. I was trying to push back this line since Whiteman is my last name and I and many others haven't been able to push it back any further.

They had 6 kids and lived in Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Mary Ann 1836
Elizabeth 1839
Sarah Ann 1847 (Who had a marriage Ban to an Alonzo Cox but disappeared from the record)
Eliza 1850 (not the same as Elizabeth)
James about 1853?
Henry about 1853? (my 2x great grandfather)

Thomas Whiteman was born About 1811 and Died in 1863 he was a coal miner
Ann Inger was born about 1812 and died  15 MAR 1887

I am looking for Thomas and Ann's Parents and siblings.
(In the same area another couple have the same married name but are not the same people. Both Thomas died in 1863)

For Thomas Whiteman I only found one DNA match with the Whiteman name which wasn't from his decedents. This match was about the 3x great grandparent level and was likely a brother or cousin to Thomas but other then DNA I have no proof of the connection. Marcus Monte Whiteman born 1820 in Russia and died 25 May 1906 Roswell, Chaves, New Mexico, USA. I put together Marcus' (know as Mark) family tree below him.  Marcus is a brick wall on his decedents family tree as well.

As for Ann Inger I have found
James Inger born about 1784 as a Neighbour he was married to a Ann Robinson. They are the right age to be Ann's Parents.... Yet other than the name and proximity I have nothing linking them.
I have also DNA matched to people with the last name Ingersoll in their deep back ancestors.
Ingersoll is the masculine of Inger meaning Son on Ing in old Swedish naming practices.

I need help with this... no one on multiple sites and tree's have been able to pass the Thomas Whiteman Ann Inger Brick wall.   
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 June 22 17:42 BST (UK)
For information

Thomas Whiteman
Ann Inger
Marriage 04 Apr 1836
St Lawrence, Heanor, Derbyshire
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 June 22 17:45 BST (UK)
Birth registration from GRO index
WHITEMAN, HENRY       mmn INGER 
GRO Reference: 1852  March Quarter in BASFORD  Volume 07B  Page 91

( They had 6 kids and lived in Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Mary Ann 1836
Elizabeth 1839
Sarah Ann 1847 (Who had a marriage Ban to an Alonzo Cox but disappeared from the record)
Eliza 1850 (not the same as Elizabeth)
James about 1853?
Henry about 1853? (my 2x great grandfather)
 
. )
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Pheno on Saturday 04 June 22 17:48 BST (UK)
1851 Census  all born Heanor Derbyshire but living Tag Hill, Basford, Nottinghamshire, England in 1851

Thomas   Whiteman   Head      Male     40   1811   Coal miner   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Ann   Whiteman     Wife      Female   35   1816   Seamer   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Mary   Whiteman   Daughter          Female   15   1836   Seamer   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth   Whiteman   Daughter  Female   14   1837   Seamer   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Sarah   Whiteman   Daughter   Female   4   1847   Scholar   Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Eliza   Whiteman   Daughter          Female   1   1850   -          Heanor, Derbyshire, England

Pheno
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: rosie99 on Saturday 04 June 22 17:49 BST (UK)
Also

WHITEMAN, FANNY       mmn INGER 
GRO Reference: 1856  June Quarter in BASFORD  Volume 07B  Page 100

Death Mar qtr 1859 
WHITEMAN    Fanny        Basford    7b   85
...


WHITEMAN, FANNY       mmn INGER 
GRO Reference: 1859  Sept Quarter in BASFORD  Volume 07B  Page 101

Death Jun qtr 1860   
Whiteman    Fanny        Basford    7b   67


 
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Pheno on Saturday 04 June 22 17:53 BST (UK)
Then maybe this baptism
Mar 1807  Thomas Whiteman to John & Fanny Whiteman @ St. Lawrence, Heanor, Derbyshire

Pheno
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: fiddlerslass on Saturday 04 June 22 18:09 BST (UK)
Another couple of children , may help with naming patterns
Ambrose Whiteman mmn Ingar 1843 March Basford
Maria Whiteman mmn Ingar 1845 June Basford
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: fiddlerslass on Saturday 04 June 22 18:41 BST (UK)
The only Ingar/Inger couple having children baptized in Heanor in the 1800 to 1812 period is James and Ann - spotted so far

James Julius 1798
Mary 1800
Anna Urania 1803
Elizabeth 1806
Sarah 1808
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Galium on Saturday 04 June 22 18:58 BST (UK)
I think that Alonzo Cox with wife Sara A Cox can be found in Heanor in 1881 - using the forename Lawrence.  The children they have with them are on the GRO birth index showing mother's maiden name Whiteman, or in the case of Thomas born in 1873 Weightman.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 01:56 BST (UK)
Then maybe this baptism
Mar 1807  Thomas Whiteman to John & Fanny Whiteman @ St. Lawrence, Heanor, Derbyshire

Pheno

on the first record I have of my Thomas Whiteman is states that he was 40 years old in  1951
1851 England Census Household schedule number59 Piece2126 Folio74 Page number 17

in the 1961 census a few year before his death he was stated as being 50. and living in Basford
Household schedule number 173 Piece 2435 Folio 80 Page number 34
about 1960 Elizabeth had a daughter out of wedlock named Lucy which her parents seem to of adopted.

it is possible that his age was just rounded up but questionable?






Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 02:05 BST (UK)
Note another Thomas Whiteman was born in 1812 Horsley Moor, Derbyshire, England (which is like walking distance to my Thomas Whiteman's house he was married to an Ann Duce Brooks they are not the right family. not that anyone got mixed up their yet, just to make clear the point I stated before.

Whiteman an Weightman seem to be the spelling past a certain point.
I think my Thomas and Ann were not much of a writer since since they signed their name with a shaky 
X
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 05 June 22 02:12 BST (UK)


"Sarah Ann 1847 (Who had a marriage Ban to an Alonzo Cox but disappeared from the record)"

Can you give date/place/church for this.

"Henry about 1853? (my 2x great grandfather)"

When/where/who do you have for marriage of your Henry....also children...and his death.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 05 June 22 02:41 BST (UK)
25 Dec 1864, parish church, Heanor

Alonzo Cox, 22, Collier, Heanor, father John a framework knitter
Sarah Ann Whiteman, 19,  Heanor, Father Thomas, a collier

Witnesses

Joseph Gillet (marked)
Matilda Lavers/Levers
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 05 June 22 02:48 BST (UK)
Jason, In response to your reply #9
Ages were rounded down on the 1841 census only.
From the 1851 and the 1861 census your Thomas has his year of birth recorded as about 1811. This is not necessarily exact.
At this time many people did not know exactly when they were born, or their exact age. There was not the need for all the documentation that we have in modern times.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 02:53 BST (UK)
I think that Alonzo Cox with wife Sara A Cox can be found in Heanor in 1881 - using the forename Lawrence.  The children they have with them are on the GRO birth index showing mother's maiden name Whiteman, or in the case of Thomas born in 1873 Weightman.

Very good find, I used this on Family search and found Lawrence Cox that married a Sarah A Whiteman. This Lawrence was born the same year in the same place. Lawrence also had his parents names. Those parents names, including mothers maiden name are Identical to what I had for Alonzo.

on family search  his number is GQ2Q-79C


---------------------------------------------------

Good point Neale1961 about the age rounding
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 03:29 BST (UK)
As for reply #4
It is possible that Ann is Fanny or some other name
I do have her living in Basford with her son Henry in 1881 census
Piece3324 Folio56 Page number 44 Household members Ann Whiteman Age 63 Henry Whiteman Age 23 her son James and his wife are living next door
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: mckha489 on Sunday 05 June 22 03:44 BST (UK)

I do have her living in Basford with her son Henry in 1881 census
Piece3324 Folio56 Page number 44 Household members Ann Whiteman Age 63 Henry Whiteman Age 23 her son James and his wife are living next door

That reference is for Heanor, not Basford.
Next door is a family of three siblings headed by William Staveley (or close to that anyway)

And on the other side is a family headed by Walter Champion.

There are no other Whitemans in that page.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 05 June 22 03:50 BST (UK)
The only Ingar/Inger couple having children baptized in Heanor in the 1800 to 1812 period is James and Ann - spotted so far
   James Julius 1798
   Mary 1800
   Anna Urania 1803
   Elizabeth 1806
   Sarah 1808

This INGAR family looks quite possible. They move to Nottingham at some point.
There are 2 daughters (Pamela and Clementine) who were baptised there in 26 Jun 1837 at the non-conformist church.
    Pamela Ingar was born 17 June 1812 at Tag Hill.
    Clementina Ingar was born 21 Oct 1816 Tag Hill.
Neither Pamela or Clementina were baptised as children in Heanor (that I could find), so maybe the parents left the church after Sarah’s 1808 baptism.
It is possible that your Ann was born between these two sister, but she missed out on being baptised because she was married before 1837.

MARRIAGE:
James INGAR married 25 May 1795 Heanor to Ann ALLEN
Both of Heanor Parish; he signed, she left her mark.
Witnesses Thos Allen & Sophia Allen
[Ann Allen / Adam was the daughter of John and Elizabeth, according to her daughters bapt records]

1851 census Radford Nottinghamshire
Ann Inger born 1775 Heanor (widow) is living with her married daughter Pamela (Inger) Jackson
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 05 June 22 04:07 BST (UK)
Is this your family? -

England Census Ancestry
Census 1841    at North Side Horsley Derbyshire
WHITEMAN Thomas   25y   coal miner
WHITEMAN Ann         25y
WHITEMAN Harriet      7y
WHITEMAN James       5y
WHITEMAN Elizabeth   3y
WHITEMAN William      1y       all  "Y" born in County

Census 1851   at Horsley Woodhouse Derbyshire
WHITEMAN Thomas    40y
WHITEMAN Ann          35y
WHITEMAN Mary         15y
WHITEMAN Elizabeth   14y
WHITEMAN Sarah         4y
WHITEMAN Eliza           1y

next family listed

FISHER Charles        25y  nailmaker
FISHER Mary            25y
FISHER Hannah          5y
FISHER Ann               2y
FISHER Thomas        10m       all born in County

GRO births  Belper Union Vol 19
FISHER Thomas 1840 SepQ        mms WEIGHTMAN

Census 1851  at Horsley Woodhouse Derbyshire
WHITEMAN Thomas   69y framework knitter cotton
WHITEMAN Hannah   67y  wife
WHITEMAN Harriet     17y g.dau
ANNE         Joseph     14y lodger      all b. Horsley Woodhouse

Census 1861   at Heanor Derbyshire
WHITEMAN Thomas  50y   coal miner
WHITEMAN Ann        48y
WHITEMAN Elizabeth 22y  dressmaker
WHITEMAN Eliza       12y  seamstress
WHITEMAN Henry     10y  coal miner
WHITEMAN James      8y
WHITEMAN Lucy         1y   g.daughter  all born Heanor Derbyshire

Census 1861 ay Horsley Woodhouse Derbyshire
FISHER Charles        46y  nailer
FISHER Mary            44y   h.w.k
FISHER Sarah           18y  h.w.k
FISHER Lucy             15y  h.w.k
FISHER James         12y   nailer
FISHER Elizabeth     10y
FISHER Mary             8y
WHITEMAN Harriet   27y   visitor   h.w.k        all born Horsley Woodhouse

Possibly? -

* Your Thomas WHITEMAN is son of Thomas WHITEMAN and Hannah.

* Mary FISHER nee WHITEMAN is sister of your Thomas, and daughter of Thomas and Hannah




 
 
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 04:27 BST (UK)
The only Ingar/Inger couple having children baptized in Heanor in the 1800 to 1812 period is James and Ann - spotted so far

James Julius 1798
Mary 1800
Anna Urania 1803
Elizabeth 1806
Sarah 1808

this look promising. The Age of Ann isn't right to the census but that doesn't mean much.
The James Inger married to Ann died in 1839 living on Negro Row, Heanor, Derbyshire, England. My Known Ann Inger and 2nd great grandfather Henry her son lived on Negro Row, Heanor, Derbyshire, England in the 1881 Census.

The most likely parents I had after a lot of research was James Inger And Elizabeth Allen.
here is the kicker Elizabeth Allen is the Witness on Anna Urania Inger marriage Banns
Film # 004415112 England, Derbyshire, Church of England Parish Registers, 1537-1918
I appears Anna Urania Inger married a John Clark at the parish of Heanor in 1821 which is well before when my Ann Married Thomas Whiteman. Anna Urania Inger mother was Ann ??? but James Later married Elizabeth Allen
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 05:07 BST (UK)
wivenhoe only two of those are my family

the
Census 1851   at Horsley Woodhouse Derbyshire (but the actual census say image says Heanor Derbyshire not Horsley. Although I assume they are within walking distance of each other)
WHITEMAN Thomas    40y
WHITEMAN Ann          35y
WHITEMAN Mary         15y
WHITEMAN Elizabeth   14y
WHITEMAN Sarah         4y
WHITEMAN Eliza           1y

and the
Census 1861   at Heanor Derbyshire
WHITEMAN Thomas  50y   coal miner
WHITEMAN Ann        48y
WHITEMAN Elizabeth 22y  dressmaker
WHITEMAN Eliza       12y  seamstress
WHITEMAN Henry     10y  coal miner
WHITEMAN James      8y
WHITEMAN Lucy         1y   g.daughter  all born Heanor Derbyshire
=========================================
Lucy was actually Elizabeth's daughter with a Joseph Smith they were never married

the other people where the Thomas and Ann's family that has made this difficult to me I looked into them a while back since they are likely cousins or something??? I think the Thomas and Hannah are the parents to the ones in Horsley not Heanor.

My Marry Whiteman married a James Fisher born 1832

Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: wivenhoe on Sunday 05 June 22 06:40 BST (UK)


"Henry about 1853? (my 2x great grandfather)"

When/where/who do you have for marriage of your Henry....also children...and his death.

Where is your WHITEMAN family for the 1841 Census?
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 16:08 BST (UK)
wivenhoe

I don't know where my they were in 1841 I only can find them in the 1851 and after.
If Ann Inger may of been married before if she is the same person discovered in this forum yesterday.

As Henry we cleared up his birth year to be 1852 all I had before was about 1853 due to the census just asking how old he was at the time of the census. 

I have also found a few newspaper clippings of Henry being arrested for fighting. Once he actually beat up his sister Elizabeth's Husband and she pressed charges against him. He also had a incident where him and  Alonzo, his other sisters husband to be, stole a cloth of some sort which was later found in Sarah's possession.
I do know that at 10 years old Henry was working in the Coal mine (I don't know which mine though) His Dad Thomas died when he was about 11. They lived in housing which was rented only to people working in the coal mines.

Henry Whiteman born 1852 in Heanor, Derbyshire, England. He died in the first Quarter of 1911 in  Belper, Derbyshire

In 1883 He married 
 Alice M Cresswell born 20 OCT 1854 Cow Hill, Belper, Derbyshire, England. She died 6 SEP 1942 • Shardlow, Derbyshire, England.

They had three kids
Frederick Whiteman 11 DEC 1885 (I have his original birth cert which was passed down) my great grandfather.
Ethel May Whiteman 1887
Eliza Whiteman 1892

I have all people from Frederick Whiteman Down and traced down all living relatives from his line (which is a lot of people)

I have found a lot of Information on Ethel and Eliza and their family lines but no one in my family under Fred knows where and living people form those lines are now?

I'm am not sure Thomas WHITEMAN and Hanna are his parents? I think they are the other Thomas parents. I have looked at them before. do you have any more information on that?


 
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 17:44 BST (UK)
Has this baptism been mentioned?
From the BT
24 Nov 1811, Heanor
Thomas, Son of John & Fanny Wheatman

Right down the bottom
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96H-38XH
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Pheno on Sunday 05 June 22 17:59 BST (UK)
Yes Jon my reply much earlier on page 1 of the thread.

I thought the Fanny name connection might be of significance.

Pheno
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 18:07 BST (UK)
Hi
I thought that one was in 1807!
John
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 18:10 BST (UK)
1841, Heanor
Piece 188 Book 19 Foilo 37 Page 24
Ann Weightman 24 Ind
Mary Weightman 5
Elizabeth Weightman 3
James Weightman 6 months
All born county
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 18:14 BST (UK)
Baptism at Heanor, 29th June 1837
Mary
Daug. of Thomas + Ann Wightman
Father a Collier
Born May 30th 1836

Birth reg
WHITEMAN, BETSEY       
Mother's Maiden Surname: INGAR 
GRO Reference: 1838  S Quarter in BASFORD UNION COUNTIES OF NOTTINGHAM DERBY  Volume 15  Page 427
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 18:18 BST (UK)
Burial at Heanor, 5 March 1846
James Whiteman
Age 5 years

Buried same day
Maria Whiteman
Age 1 year

Abode Heanor

Maria Whiteman mmn Ingar 1845 June Basford
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 18:25 BST (UK)
Mar 1807  Thomas Whiteman to John & Fanny Whiteman @ St. Lawrence, Heanor, Derbyshire

That was on 17 March.
Burial at Heanor the following day, 18 March 1807
Thomas Wheatman, Infant

Is that the same chap?
And replaced with another Thomas baptized in 1811?
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 19:20 BST (UK)
BT of the burial of the infant Thomas Wheatman at Heanor, 18 March 1807
(the first March burials on the page are 1806. It's a very large document, some more of which is on the previous image!)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G96H-38YK
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Pheno on Sunday 05 June 22 19:22 BST (UK)
Hi
I thought that one was in 1807!
John

Sorry you are correct.  Prob same parents so maybe first Thomas died - anyone found a burial?

Pheno
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Sunday 05 June 22 20:07 BST (UK)
Yes, next day!
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 20:22 BST (UK)
I am just getting caught up on what was posted since this morning.
the Anna Urania Inger as mentioned earlier is not the same person I ran a search and composed a tree for her

This Ann Is the Daughter of Jame Inger and Ann Allen she married a John Clark (which I found the marriage Banns for) they had no children. Anna Urania Inger then married a George Wilson and had eight children. Ann changed her name to Wilson. Her father James married, I assume the sister of his wife Elizabeth Allen. this James and Elizabeth lived on the exact same street as my Ann Whiteman nee Inger and Henry Whiteman lived on years later.

they are possible cousins since they live in the same area and same last name but no proof of that yet.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 20:45 BST (UK)
Another Thomas Whiteman was born in Derbyshire to a Ruth Whiteman at of wedlock I ran down his line and he is not the right Thomas although he was close right general age and location

an
Edward Inger married a Sarah Madder in Basford they had a daughter Ann but she died the same year born so not the right person

The more I try to figure this out the worse it gets .... a lot of Inger families in that area and a lot of Thomas Whiteman
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Neale1961 on Sunday 05 June 22 21:52 BST (UK)
I believe you have been given the correct baptism for your Thomas in reply 23.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 05 June 22 22:31 BST (UK)
A John Whiteman  17 SEP 1771 • Houghton Conquest, Bedfordshire and Mary Coast (1779–1830) also born in Bedfordshire

had a Son THOMAS Whiteman (1810–) I can find any information on him though I am look into this

this Thomas is the right age and the last name is spelled the same.

this looks promising
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 06 June 22 09:00 BST (UK)
What do you think of my suggestion for 1841, Reply #26?
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Tuesday 07 June 22 02:10 BST (UK)
What do you think of my suggestion for 1841, Reply #26?

It doesn't fully add up
Eliza is missing
and James wouldn't be born until 1853 so shouldn't be on the 1841 census


Granted Elizabeth and Mary are the right age... Ann Inger the mother's age is a mystery but is in the right ballpark (per the known documents with the right Ann she was listed as being born in 1813 1816 1817 and 1818)

That is a correct alternative to Whiteman but I haven't seen any of my family use that spelling either.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Tuesday 07 June 22 04:49 BST (UK)
1841 Census
I found a solo Thomas Whiteman coal miner in Wolverhampton, Willenhall
Piece:   985
Book:   8
Folio:   10
Page number:   12

he was born in 1811 the exact year my Thomas Whiteman was born
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: floogy99 on Thursday 09 June 22 11:02 BST (UK)
Just thought I would say hello. Thomas Whiteman & Mary Ann Inger are my 4th Great Grandparents. I descend from their daughter Elizabeth Whiteman 1839.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: floogy99 on Thursday 09 June 22 11:34 BST (UK)
Elizabeth Whiteman (1839) had a daughter Sarah Ann Whiteman (1865) and she married Arthur Smith (1861). The witnesses at this marriage (1882) were Thomas Allen & Elizabeth Allen. The Allen name seems to keep popping up.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Sunday 31 July 22 06:22 BST (UK)
floogy99
so as for the Thomas Whiteman and Ann Inger
They had a daughter named Elizabeth and a daughter named Eliza rather strange but both girls appeared on the same census form so they are different people, yet such a similar name.

Eliza was married twice once to William King and Joseph Pollard. (She had a big family)

Elizabeth Whiteman is what gives a lot of people problems. As far as I can tell she had two kids with two different men. Her first kid was with a Joseph Smith who she never married. They had Lucy which Elizabeth's parents Thomas Whiteman and Ann nee Inger adopted.
Elizabeth Whiteman that had the parents Thomas Whiteman and Ann Inger married a John Barker.
They had one son I know of "Thomas Theophilus Barker" born 1876

Almost everyone I come across with The Thomas Whiteman Ann Inger couple on their tree makes the mistake of putting James Harrison as this Elizabeth's Husband.(I did the same thing) James Harrison is actually the husband of another Elizabeth Whiteman that lived in the same area and get this had parents named Thomas and Ann Whiteman. I put together trees for both of them to sort it out

I also know this because in the 1901 census Elizabeth Barker is living with my 2x great grandfather Henry and is listed as his sister and a widow (In the same house my 2x great grandmother my great grandfather and 2 grandaunts)

I have also found a legal case in 1871 in a Newspaper where Henry beat up his Sisters Husband John Barker. (The Derby Mercury, Derby, Derbyshire, England 15 Mar 1871) his Sister pressed charges against him and he was found guilty and fined for the assult. Apparently they got over this and where living together in 1901
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Monday 01 August 22 16:42 BST (UK)
floogy99
I found the 1881 census with a Sarah Ann Whiteman listed as her daughter at 16 years old... well this is new to me. are you still around I would like to clear this up in my head
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: floogy99 on Tuesday 02 August 22 09:36 BST (UK)
Hi Jason
As far as I am aware Elizabeth Whiteman (1839-1923) had 4 children. The first 3 were born out of wedlock & carried her maiden name. Lucy (1880), Sarah Anne (1865) and William H (1867). Lucy's father I think was Joseph Smith but not sure of the father(s) of the second 2. She then married John Barker and had a son Thomas (1876). The 3 Illegitimate children were all baptised together on Jan 1st 1868 in Heanor Parish church.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Wednesday 03 August 22 03:14 BST (UK)
Well this is really cool. Elizabeth Whiteman has been a brick wall on my tree ever since I have been looking into this a year and a bit ago. thank you very much
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: floogy99 on Wednesday 03 August 22 06:54 BST (UK)
Hi Jason
Hope the file comes across
Helen
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Friday 05 August 22 04:40 BST (UK)
Very nice thank you thank you... I am glad to make progress on this my Dad's first cousin that I tracked down in Scotland gave up due to lack of progress on the Whiteman line. I am glad I you responded to this.

Stuck on Thomas Whiteman (born 1811 Heanor, Derbyshire, England)

I also wanted to Find What my Thomas Whiteman's relation is to the other Thomas Whiteman that lived very near him.

Also does anyone know why a birth registry GRO would have a different spelling of a last name
for example
 my Grandfather George Leslie Whiteman official birth cert that I have has his kast name Whiteman on it where as on the GRO website catalogue it is spelled WEIGHTMAN

Name WEIGHTMAN, GEORGE  LESLIE  Mother's Maiden Surname: HARTLEY    GRO Reference: 1910  D Quarter in BELPER  Volume 07B  Page 644

His Aunt Eliza has her name at the GRO as being spelled WEIGHTMAN but all other documents it is Whiteman???


 
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Neale1961 on Friday 05 August 22 05:12 BST (UK)
Also does anyone know why a birth registry GRO would have a different spelling of a last name

The informant may have been illiterate, and the registry cleric wrote the name as he heard, and thought it might be spelled.
The standardisation of spelling is a quite recent occurrence.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Friday 05 August 22 09:19 BST (UK)
Elizabeth Whiteman 1839

Was she not born 1838?

Birth reg
WHITEMAN, BETSEY       
Mother's Maiden Surname: INGAR 
GRO Reference: 1838  S Quarter in BASFORD UNION COUNTIES OF NOTTINGHAM DERBY  Volume 15  Page 427
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: floogy99 on Friday 05 August 22 15:47 BST (UK)
Yes, my mistake, 1838
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Friday 05 August 22 22:21 BST (UK)
I'm not related to

Birth reg
WHITEMAN, BETSEY       
Mother's Maiden Surname: INGAR
GRO Reference: 1838  S Quarter in BASFORD UNION COUNTIES OF NOTTINGHAM DERBY  Volume 15  Page 427

although Inger is the mother's Maiden name she is not a Child of the Thomas and Marry Ann Inger I am directly related to
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Friday 16 September 22 17:22 BST (UK)
Ok, so I found Mary Ann Inger born 1812 Heanor, Derbyshire, England died 15 Mar 1887 Middlesex, England as Thomas Whiteman`s wife.
I am confident that her parents were Elizabeth Allen 1793 to Abt. 1838 Heanor, Derbyshire, England and James Inger born 1784 Heanor, Derbyshire, England died Abt. 1839 Negro Row, Heanor, Derbyshire, England

I have made zero movement on Thomas Whiteman born 1811 in Heanor, Derbyshire, England
Whiteman is my last name so being stuck on this only a few generations back is rather frustrating.

I am trying to find out who his parents where....

I know two Thomas Whiteman`s lived in the area both married Ann`s (Mary Ann Inger went by Ann) both died in 1863...

I had a funny thought that both were of these people where the same Thomas Whiteman`s (like he had two families) but that is not true
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: mckha489 on Friday 16 September 22 20:08 BST (UK)
Has this baptism been mentioned?
From the BT
24 Nov 1811, Heanor
Thomas, Son of John & Fanny Wheatman

Right down the bottom
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96H-38XH

You don’t say why you have discarded this baptism.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Saturday 17 September 22 04:05 BST (UK)
Nothing other than the Same first name and year of birth is correct for this baptism; the document is not cited nor has any information about where it`s from. how can one assume this is the same person
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 17 September 22 10:40 BST (UK)
I gave you a link to the document, the bishop's transcript for Heanor.
First page of it
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96H-386Y

The PR (parish register) is not online for that period, perhaps it doesn't survive.

If you want a full archive reference for the BT, go look it up.
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 17 September 22 11:47 BST (UK)
Thomas Whiteman born 1811 in Heanor, Derbyshire, England

So, right first name - yes
Right year - yes
Right place - yes
Surname recorded as Wheatman rather than Whiteman

We have other children of John and Fanny baptized in Heanor.
Surname a mix of Wheatman and Whiteman
i.e. Fanny (Whiteman) in 1815
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D439-118

So I think the Wheatman baptism in 1811 might be one to consider.
No one asked you to "assume" anything.
Presumably you joined Rootschat for help, rather than just to insult its members?
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: Jason Jase on Saturday 17 September 22 15:00 BST (UK)
it was not meant as an insult to question a document 
Title: Re: Stuck on a very hard brickwork and need help...
Post by: jonw65 on Saturday 17 September 22 17:39 BST (UK)
Hi
You are of course right to want to be sure you have the right baptism for Thomas, and the right line to follow.
I would weigh it all up, and continue looking for any links.