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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Montgomeryshire => Topic started by: K8Case on Thursday 09 June 22 10:01 BST (UK)
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Good morning everyone.
I hope this message finds you well :)
I am currently researching my family tree and have hit a brick wall with my paternal grandfathers line. My great grandfather was born in Welshpool in 1890 and has listed his father as James Williams (house plasterer) on his marriage certificate. I can't find either of their birth certificates, Herbert in Welshpool or James in Bangor 1839.
Any help would be most gratefully received.
Many thanks,
Kate x
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Looking back at other children of James and Mary Ann, they have mother's maiden name Roberts
So I think this is Herbert's birth reg
WILLIAMS, BERTIE
mmn ROBERTS
Q1 1890 FORDEN Volume 11B Page 177
He's listed as 11 months old on 1891 census taken in April, which doesn't quite fit, but Mary's age is 10 years out, so what's a few weeks !
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You may have some issues with James' birth as his age might be a bit unreliable. The only death in the area which allows for Herbert's conception and James' death before the 1891 census (where Mary is a widow) is in December 1889, where the age on the registration and burial is 64 (i.e. born c1825)
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1891 shows Mary as 55yrs old which would make it impossible for her to be the mother of an 11mth old
1881 has her as 33. However - 1881 has Mary Jane 3 & Thomas C 1 who are not with her on the 1891 census
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Thank you for your replies :)
The things you mention are what's making the search harder. Unfortunately there is nobody in the family that has information regarding who Herberts parents were. I have asked my dad to take a dna test to see if that helps at all.
I had thought that Mary Ann was an Evans so thank you for the info that she is a Roberts.
Kate x
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It’s puzzling.
There are baptisms to James, a Plasterer and Mary Ann, Welshpool
Thomas Charles, 1880 birth M quarter 1879 mmn Roberts
George Ernest, 1883 birth George J quarter 1883 mmn Roberts
Herbert, 1885 birth D quarter 1884 mmn Roberts
Margaret Alice, 1888 birth M quarter 1887 mmn Roberts
Are these the same family?
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Thomas Charles is on my tree, I've not come across Margaret yet. I think Herbert from 1885 died as an infant. If I'm honest I think my whole line of investigation could be wrong :'(
On Herberts marriage certificate he lists his father as James (plasterer deceased) as his father.
Kate x
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The marriage was in Q3 1867 in Welshool District. Unfortunately, the North Wales BMD has it as a civil ceremony, so you would need the certificate to gain more information.
His birthplace in 1871 is different, but I can't make out the name - attached.
David
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DCB thats brilliant, thank you!
Do you have the volume and page number at all?
The writing says Caernarvonshire Naichcraig I think as I have come across that before.
Thanks again.
Kate x
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1901 5202 /129/11
10 Raven Street
Ann Roberts 68 yrs b Welshpool
George Williams 17 yrs grandson
Bertie Williams 11 yrs grandson
In 1891 Mary Ann Williams was at 15 Raven St
1881 the Williams family at 10 Raven Street
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Two GRO births
WILLIAMS, HERBERT WALTER mmn WILLIAMS
GRO Reference: 1889 M Quarter in FORDEN Volume 11B Page 171
WILLIAMS, BERTIE mmn ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1890 M Quarter in FORDEN Volume 11B Page 177
David
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Mary Ann was in Raven Street for most of her life:-
1871: Raven Street, Welshpool, Forden
James Williams Head - 32 1839 - Caernarvonshire
Mary Ann Williams Wife - 23 1848 - Montgomeryshire
William Henry Williams Son - 2 1869 - Montgomeryshire
Isabella Ann Williams Daughter - Fe0 1871 - Montgomeryshire
1861: Raven Street, Pool Middle Division, Montgomery
Ann Roberts Head Unmarried 38 1823 House keeper -
William Roberts Brother Unmarried 40 1821 Masons labourer -
John Roberts Brother Unmarried 27 1834 Masons labourer -
Mary Ann Roberts Daughter - 13 1848 - -
John Roberts Son - 10 1851 -
1851: Raven Street, Pool, Montgomery
William Roberts Head Widower 62 1789 Joiner Llanfyllin, Montgomeryshire
William Roberts Son Unmarried 29 1822 Laborer Montgomeryshire
Ann Roberts Daughter Unmarried 28 1823 - Montgomeryshire
Thomas Roberts Son Unmarried 26 1825 Nail maker Montgomeryshire
John Roberts Son Unmarried 18 1833 Laborer Montgomeryshire
Mary A Roberts Daughter - 3 1848 - Montgomeryshire
John Roberts Grand son - 1 1850 - Montgomeryshire
David
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There is an active family tree by a descendant of Mary Ann's brother, John, b 1850.
Probably need a subscription to see it: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/160858761/person/112102063900/facts
David
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Ohhh wow David, that is amazing! ;D
Thank you so much !
Kate x
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I looked for Mary Roberts in 1841 and still in Raven Street. This gave information which led to the childrens' baptisms and marriage of parents which, unusually, gave their parents:-
1841 Raven Street, Welshpool
William Roberts 50 1791 Joiner b Montgomeryshire
Ann Roberts 50 1791 b Montgomeryshire
William Roberts 20 1821 Mason b Montgomeryshire
Ann Roberts 25 1816 b b Montgomeryshire
Thomas Roberts 15 1826 b Montgomeryshire
John Roberts 10 1831 b Montgomeryshire
Margaret Griffiths 20 1821 Soldier's Wife b Montgomeryshire
William Roberts, age 22, son of Owen and Jane Roberts, married Ann Waring, age 21, daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Waring of this Parish, on 17th July 1810
Elizabeth Roberts, daughter of William and Ann of Welshpool, baptised on 25th Feb 1816
Joseph Roberts, son of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, baptised on 30th May 1813
Margaret Roberts, daughter of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, baptised on 25th Feb 1816
William Roberts, son of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, baptised on 14th June 1818
Ann Phalia/Thalia Roberts, daughter of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, babtised on 11th June 1820
Thomas Roberts, son of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, baptised on 25th May 1823
John Roberts, son of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, baptised on 22nd May 1831
George Roberts, son of William, a joiner, and Ann of Pooltown, baptised on 3rd June 1834
Ann Waring
Daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth (Davies, married 2 Oct 1775 in Welshpool)
Born: 29 Sep 1788
Baptised: 31 Oct 1788 in Welshpool
Trees for brother, Edward, but inactive: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/70538537/family?cfpid=392355375220
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/88059678/family?cfpid=46567216410
William Roberts
son of Owen and Jane (Probably Williams, married 17 Jun 177 at Llanfihangel-Yng-Ngwynfa, Owen of Llanfyllin)
Born: 5 Nov 1788
Baptised: 7 Nov 1788 in Llanfyllin
David
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Thank you once again David :)
Some of the birth years don't match the baptisms, is this normal?
Kate x
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http://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tools/tree/181509437/invitees/accept?inviteId=18ad5a37-1915-4013-8cf9-48422f9d3533
This is the link to my tree .
Kate x
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Ages on censuses often vary, including these for Margaret Roberts, then Griffiths. Her father is with her in 1861:-
1851: Raven Street, Pool, Montgomery
Evan Griffiths Head Married 29 1822 Shoemaker Castle Caereinion, Montgomeryshire
Margaret Griffiths Wife Married 32 1819 - Montgomeryshire
Evan Griffiths Son - 9 1842 - Montgomeryshire
George Griffiths Son - 1 1850 - Montgomeryshire
Mary A Griffiths Daughter - 0 1851 - Montgomeryshire
1861: Raven Street, Pool Middle Division, Montgomery
Evan Griffiths Head Married 37 1824 Sergeant of staff melita -
Margaret Griffiths Wife Married 45 1816 - -
Evan Griffiths Son Unmarried 19 1842 Labourer -
George Griffiths Son - 12 1849 - -
Mary Ann Griffiths Daughter - 10 1851 - -
David Griffiths Son - 9 1852 - -
John Thos Griffiths Son - 6 1855 - -
William Roberts Father in law Widower 74 1787 Cabinet maker (buried 15th Sept 1863 in Welshpool)
Quite a few trees for Edward Waring of Welshpool: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rm6/
David
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Good morning David,
Sorry for the late reply, once again thank you for the wealth of information.
I'm going to have an hour now to try to work out who is who.
Kate x
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A few more items:-
George Roberts, infant of Pool Town, buried on 9th June 1834.
John Roberts, son of William, a joiner, married Adelaide Jones on 2nd March 1864 in Welshpool.
1871: Church Street, Lower Pool Welshpool, Forden, Montgomeryshire
John Roberts Head - 40 b 1831 - Welshpool
Adelaide Roberts Wife - 31 b 1840 - Welshpool
John Austin - Nurse Child - 1 b 1870 Welshpool (illegitimate child of Elisbeth Mary Austin)
1881: 1, Clifton Street, Lower Pool, Forden
Same with John Austin, now 11 (adopted?)
A Memorial Inscription for Margaret Griffiths nee Roberts:-
In Loving Memory of / Evan E. GRIFFITHS, / Who Died April 6th. 1893, / Aged 73 Years / Also of Margaret, / Wife of the above / Who Died March 29th. 1886, / Aged 68 Years. / Also of Isabella, / Daughter of the above / Who Died May 1858, Aged 14 Months. / "Peace, perfect peace, with loved ones far away; / In Jesus' keeping we are safe and they."
David
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Good morning David,
Thank you for the extra information. I'm still trying to piece together how the Roberts family works. I think I'm a bit confused as there are a few generations living together at times. Hopefully today James Williams and Mary Ann Roberts wedding certificate will arrive in the post.
Kate x
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I received Berties birth certificate yesterday, he's obviously the right one but doesn't have a father listed. Even if James had passed away before he was born would he normally still be named on the birth certificate?
Many thanks,
Kate x
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This is the certificate.
Kate x
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Pleased to hear that you have the certificate. It is a shame that it doesn't give the father's name.
I wondered about the death of James Williams and I think it was in 1886. Although his age varies on the censuses, it gives it as 40.
James Williams, 40, of Pool Town, buried on 6th March 1886.
WILLIAMS, JAMES 40
GRO Reference: 1886 M Quarter in FORDEN Volume 11B Page 160
David
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Could it possibly be this James Williams do you think?
Kate x
copyright images removed
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That was in Forden too .
Kate x
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It is difficult to be certain, because no other details are given. The only others in the area were the one in 1889 and one in 1883, born 1819.
Unfortunately it would mean a risk on the certificate, but it must have been before 1889-90, given that there is no father on Bertie's certificate.
David
P.S. I forgot to mention that the one in 1889 also gives the abode as Pool Town, buried on 5th December, which means that he would have been alive when Bertie was conceived and probably mentioned on the certificate.
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Looking at the baptisms of the last three children, James was alive until 1885.
Children of James, Plasterer, and Mary Ann Williams of Pool Town
Thomas Charles: 5th April 1880
George Ernest: 6th July 1883
Herbert: 22nd February 1885, buried 12th November 11 months old
David
P.S. I missed Margaret Alice born in 1887 and baptised 1n 1888, so James alive until 1886-7.
WILLIAMS, MARGARET ALICE mmn ROBERTS
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in FORDEN Volume 11B Page 175
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I'd be inclined to think that maybe he is the 1889 death then?
I wonder why he's not listed on Bertie's birth certificate though. Very strange. And also why Margaret wasn't baptised for so long after her birth.
Kate x
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Sadly, I think the reason why James is not mentioned on the certificate is because he wasn't his father, although Bertie may have assumed that he was.
I noticed the address on Herbert's burial, which was Clifton Street, and found the following on the Index for the 1921 census.
Elizabeth Williams 1891, Fred (Freda?) Williams 1921, Catherine Jones, Emily Jones 1893 and Amy Jones 1904.
David
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Morning David,
Thanks for your reply. I have received James and Mary Anns wedding certificate and she doesn't give her father on it for some unkown reason.
I'm hoping there is a slim chance of James being the father now that i have finally managed to get somewhere with him.
Kate x
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Herbert (Bertie) was my grandads father, he died when he was 2 years old. Freda was my grandads older sister.
Kate x
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Mary Ann's mother wasn't married, so she may not have known the name of her father. I looked for her birth registration in Welshpool but couldn't find it on the main sites. However, when I checked http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/birthsearch.php there is one in 1847 which doesn't seem to appear on the others, registered in Welshpool in 1847. Also brother, John, in 1850
I think the main sites may have them in Montgomery, possibly because of boundary changes in 1974:-
ROBERTS, MARY ANN no mmn
GRO Reference: 1847 D Quarter in MONTGOMERY Volume 27 Page 100
ROBERTS, JOHN no mmn
GRO Reference: 1850 M Quarter in MONTGOMERY Volume 27 Page 102
The only way to find out about James is probably to buy the death certificate in 1886. However, it could be disappointing it it is the wrong one or, if correct, shows that he wasn't Bertie's father. Alternatively, the one in 1889.
David
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I have decided to order the 1889 death certificate. Its a bit of a gut feeling and I also read that for a father to be on a birth certificate he had to be present when the birth was registered so maybe if he died in 1889 that is why he isn't on there. At least I will hopefully have more answers.
Kate x
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Good morning David,
I hope you are well :)
The 1889 death certificate arrived this morning and I think it is the right one even though the age is right. It has him listed as a plasterer and also that he died at 33 Mount Street which was a lodging house. I cannot make out the cause of death other than exhaustion.
Kate x
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Mount Street adjoins Raven Street, although it is strange that he was there. Perhaps he died at work.
Also strange that his age is so far out on the certificate and burial. I imagine that the grave is still there and may have the right details.
Does it mention the informant? If not a family member, they may have got it wrong.
You can see 33 on Street View, but it doesn't seem to be on the 1881-1891 census, which stops at 32.
Regards,
David
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I found it on the 1881 and 1891 census and its listed as a lodging house. The gentleman who was the informant was a Mr John Calvert who also resided at 33 Mount Street.
I can't find him on find my grave so unsure of how to find where he is buried. I think a trip to Welshpool maybe in order.
As for the bate of birth, I have no idea. I assume it must be him as I can't imagine there being more than 1 James Williams plasterer 🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️ who knows.
Kate x
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I have found some extracts about John Calvert.
26 June 1897 - Montgomeryshire Echo
Deaths
CALVERT - June 10, aged 34. John Chadwick Calvert, 32, Mount-street Welshpool.
12 June 1897 - Montgomery County Times
MILITARY FUNERAL
On Friday afternoon the remains of Sergeant John Chadwick Calvert were consigned to their last resting place at Christ Churchyard amidst tokens of profound regret.
The church is off Raven Street and, although now redundant, the graves seem to be there.
Still a bit puzzled about the missing father on the birth certificate and why the family, who were nearby, didn't register the death. The rules may have been different then but, today, either parent can register the birth, if married. If not married, the father also has to be present to have his name recorded. I imagine that it was quite common for only the mother to register a birth in wartime.
David
P.S. John Chadwick Calvert age 34 of 32 Mount Street, buried on 11th June