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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Zacktyr on Tuesday 14 June 22 07:12 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am out of ideas for finding the statutory birth of John CAMERON. I can't find him in the 1901 census but the 1911 census records that he was born circa 1864 at Edinburgh.
His Marriage Certificate in 1889 give his parents' names as follows:
Joseph Cameron General Labourer (Deceased), Sarah Cameron M.S. Graham (Deceased)
John's Death Certificate in 1940 gives his parents' names as follows:
Parents: John Cameron, Coal Miner (deceased) Sarah Cameron M.S. Green (deceased).
I have found a baptism in the register for St Alphonsus Roman Catholic Church, Glasgow, Calton, Lanarkshire, Scotland for a John Cameron baptised June 1865 aged 5 months old to parents named
James Cameron and Sarah Green.
I have also found a baptism in the register for Our Lady of Lourdes & St Patrick Roman Catholic Church, Auchinleck, Ayrshire, Scotland for a William Cameron, parents recorded as Joseph Cameron and Sarah Green. The baptism was in 1881 but the birth was given as 8 Feb 1864 but no place of birth was given making it impossible to find him on the 1871 and 1881 census - no William Cameron in Auchinleck in 1881 and 1891.
No other baptisms of a child to a mother named Sarah Green in the Roman Catholic registers on Find My Past.
I have also purchased several certificates from ScotlandsPeople for deaths of Joseph Cameron and Sarah Green or Graham. None provide the correct identification of the wife. I have also purchased the only marriage certificate of a Joseph Cameron to a Sarah. She was Sarah Wisely and neither of her parents had the surname of Green or Graham.
I have purchased a number of certificates from ScotlandsPeople for John Cameron born 1864 and 1865 and not one of them has a mother named Sarah or with a surname of Green or Graham.
I have also purchased several certificates from ScotlandsPeople looking for the death of Sarah Green - again the only one that comes up with Cameron is Sarah Wisley wife of Joseph Cameron.
I have also purchased several certificates from ScotlandsPeople looking for the death of Joseph, James or John Cameron with a wife named Sarah Green or Graham. No luck especially with only a broad year of death, i.e. 1865 to 1889. I have weedled it down based on age at death. But still no luck.
My questions are:
1. Why do the Roman Catholic baptisms not seem to have a statutory entry in the births?
2. Is there something else I can try in order to locate the correct birth for John Cameron in 1865?
3. Is there something else I can try in order to locate the correct deaths for Joseph, James or John Cameron with a wife named Sarah nee Green or Graham?
Any suggestions gratefully received.
Thank you.
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Hi,
Have you considered that John Cameron's parents may not actually have been married and he may be registered under his mother's surname. Not unusual for a child to be registered with mother's surname but be known by father's surname.
John himself provides the information regarding his deceased parents on his 1889 marriage cerificate.
When he dies in 1940, his parents' details are provided by whoever registered his death - bearing in mind the number of years which have passed, it is possible the informant of his death made a mistake with his mother's maiden name. No checks would be made to verify this info.
Lastly, was John's marriage conducted by Roman Catholic priest? Do you know this was his faith? Only asking because you are looking for an RC baptism.
Looby :)
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Hi again,
Been having a browse at records trying to help you but I think to progress we would need a wee bit more info, please.
Where does John Cameron marry and to whom?
Where was John listed on 1911 Census? I'm assuming you have been unable to find him on any Census prior to 1911?
Where did he die in 1940?
Did he have children? If so did he name them after his parents ( which was very typical during this era)? If he and his wife followed the traditional "Scottish naming pattern " , he would have named his first son after his father, second son after his wife's father. First daughter would be named after mother's mother - second daughter after father's mother.
Sorry, that is a lot of questions but the answers will help Rootschatters pin down where John was from 1889 onwards and might help us trace back.
Looby :)
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Hi, Looby
First, thank you for responding to my query. It is greatly appreciated.
I'll try to answer your questions from both posts in the order in which your posed them.
1. "Have you considered that John Cameron's parents may not actually have been married...?
A. Yes and I did a search for John Green and again purchased the certs, but no luck. Also the RC baptism states that he was a "lawful" child. The same applies to the earlier born William Cameron.
2. Regarding the two different iterations of his parents' names on his marriage and on his death.
A. Yes I quite agree that this can result and consequently, this is why I have also carefully searched for a Sarah Graham marriage and death. But, no luck. I could not find one certificate that a Sarah Graham had married or been a wife of any Cameron male. Also, there are no RC baptisms or marriages with a Cameron and a Sarah Graham as the mother. I have also searched the "Other Churches", the RC and the OPR registers 1830 through 1855 for a marriage of a Sarah Graham or Sarah Green to a Cameron. No luck.
3. As regards the informant on John's death certificate, it was his brother-in-law, John Campbell who had lived with the Cameron family for quite a long time. But, still, he could have made mistakes.
4. "Was John's marriage conducted by a Roman Catholic priest?"
A. No. It was performed at Bothwell, Lanarkshire at The Episcopal Church Uddingston after Publication According to the Forms of the Episcopal Church in Scotland. His wife Catherine Campbell and her family were Roman Catholic.
5. "Do you know this was his faith?"
A. Only by the two RC baptisms
6. "Where does John Cameron marry and to whom?"
A. John Cameron married Catherine Campbell 27 Oct. 1899 at Bothwell. Bothwell is the place where Catherine and her parents and siblings lived for many years.
7. "Where was John listed on 1911 Census?"
A. 1911 Census as follows:
Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scotland, Census 647/3/4, p. 4
Sch. #25, 103 Beckford Street:
John Cameron, head, 47, mar, Stropper at Machine, Colliery, born Midlothian, Edinburgh
Catherine Cameron, wife, 39, mar, married 11 years, 2 children born alive, 2 children still living, born Glasgow, Parkhead
Peter Cameron, won, 13, at School, born Aitkenhead, Borthwell Parish
Joseph Cameron, son, 10, at School, born Udston Rows, Hamilton
Peter Cameron was actually the illegitimate son of Catherine Campbell and his birth was registered as Peter Campbell with no father recorded. I've tracked through his life to see if he had any children - looking for descendants. Sadly, he did not, confirmed by a newspaper report of the house fire that killed his wife in 1957. Peter's own death in 1970 was registered by a "friend".
Joseph Cameron is the direct ancestor.
8. " I'm assuming you have been unable to find him on any Census prior to 1911?"
A. Correct. I cannot find John Cameron on any other census. I have searched through many John Camerons in 1871 and 1901 with no luck. The lack of finding death information of John/James/Joseph Cameron and Sarah Green/Graham and not finding John Cameron with his parents in 1871 gives me the impression that both parents had died between 1865 and 1871, or one of the parents had died in that time frame and the other remarried. Either way it makes John Cameron pretty much unfindable in 1871. John Cameron was a coal miner/coal hewer so he could have been anywhere in 1901. I have searched the 1901 census both broadly and for every Cameron living in Hamilton in that year. No luck.
Peter Campbell aka Cameron was living with his grandparents David and Mary Campbell in 1901 and shown as their "son" at Nackerty Old Rows, 24, Bothwell, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
9. "Where did he die in 1940?"
A. John Cameron died at Kirkland Mental Hospital, Bothwell, Usual Residence: 71 Beckford Street, Hamilton.
10. "Did he have children?"
A. John Cameron had only 1 son named Joseph! Joseph was born 24 Jul 1900 at High Dykehead, Hamilton, Lanarkshire. He died at Hamilton, Wentworth County, Ontario, Canada.
See additional comment under #7, above, regarding Peter Campbell aka Cameron.
I hope this helps.
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Just a small point (at the risk of sounding like a nitpicker) son Joseph was born at High Dykehead, Hamilton (not Udston Rows).
Annette
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Hi Zacktyr,
Thanks for posting all the details - certainly gives everyone a clearer picture of John Cameron's life from the time of his marriage.
The two RC baptisms you have found - I was unsure these related to the same couple and , regarding the baptism at Calton of a John Cameron son of James Cameron and Sarah Graham, whether that is the John Cameron you are looking for : there are 3 John Cameron birth registered in Calton and 23 boys of the name in Glasgow City area during 1864/1865.
On 1911 Census, the John Cameron you are researching has given Edinburgh, Midlothian as his place of birth - of course, he could be mistaken and might have been born somewhere else.
The fact John has named his first and only child Joseph would indicate John's father was indeed Joseph - as stated on John's marriage cert.
I'll take a wee look and see if I can give you any other ideas.
Looby :)
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Hi, Annette
Thank you for taking the time to read this rather lengthy thread and for responding.
The Udston Rows reference is directly reported from the 1911 census.
The place of birth on Joseph's birth certificate states "High Dykehead, Hamilton..."
Beyond this information, I cannot add any more. I presume that the Udston Rows reference is the house in which he was born, which was not included on his birth certificate.
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Hi, Loopy
I have purchased the three certificates of John Camerons registered in Calton. The first is an illegitimate child of Jane. John Smillie Cameron's parents are Archibald and Jessie. His second name is actually spelled incorrectly on the index. The third John registered in 1865 is also an illegitimate child of Catherine Cameron. Of the other John Cameron's born 1863 to 1865 in Glasgow City, I have also purchased the certificate for John Graham Cameron. His parents were William Cameron and Elizabeth nee Hendrie.
I have also purchased the 4 birth certificates of John Cameron's born in all of Midlothian between 1863 and 1865. Those were all registered in various parts of Edinburgh and are as follows:
John at Canongate parents are Robert and Grace; the John at St. Giles parents are Duncan and Mary Brown Small; John 1863 at St. George is illegitimate the son of Isabella Cameron; the last John at St. George 1865 parents are Daniel and Mary nee Brocke.
So as you can see, I have invested quite a bit of funds in trying to find the correct birth registration for John Cameron. Yes, I agree that having named his one and only son Joseph would definitely seem to confirm that his own father's name was Joseph. I just don't understand why there wouldn't be a registration that co-ordinates with the RC baptism. Unfortunately, I'm not in the position to purchase 156 credits to work my way through the remaining birth registrations in the Glasgow City and Central areas. I had even contacted ScotlandsPeople about having them do a search of the records and was informed that they cannot do that.
As I said in my earlier posts I have also gone to the same lengths to try to find the deaths of Joseph Cameron and Sarah Green/Graham without any luck whatsoever.
Thank you for your continued efforts. This is really a stumper.
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My Goodness.
You definitely have invested a lot of time and money trying to tie down the birth of John Cameron.
He is, without doubt, doing a really good job of hiding in the records.
It is very odd that the certificate of birth for John Cameron , son of James Cameron and Sarah Green - if the child was born in Scotland there should be (by 1864/65) a statutory birth registration. I wonder if this baby was born in Scotland?? He is baptised at 5 months old - perhaps he was born in England or Ireland.
I have tried finding the baby Joseph Cameron on the 1901 Census when he would've been under 1 year old. Sadly, so far, I'm not having much success.
When John marries Catherine he is already in his 30s - is he noted as a bachelor on his marriage certificate? Who were the two witnesses? What was his address in 1899? Does his age on the certificate tally with a year of birth of 1864?
It is a stumper indeed. Makes me wonder if his name originally was Cameron :-\
Looby :)
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The Udston Rows reference is directly reported from the 1911 census.
The place of birth on Joseph's birth certificate states "High Dykehead, Hamilton..."
I presume that the Udston Rows reference is the house in which he was born, which was not included on his birth certificate.
"Udston Rows, Dykehead, Hamilton
This property is situated at Dykehead, in the Parish of Hamilton, and is known as Udston Rows"...
http://www.scottishmining.co.uk/99.html
Annie
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Hi Loopy
Yes, I had entertained the idea that John Cameron was not born in Scotland. Accordingly, I examined the GRO.gov.uk birth index in depth with all variations of mother's surname. There are no births to a mother Graham or Green. The births in Dec Qtr 1864 and Jan Qtr 1865 have mothers' surnames included, so no joy in England.
I also did do a search of the Irish civil registration births and again no joy there.
I have also searched for the marriage of the suspected parents in England and in Ireland. No luck on these. Unfortunately, there's not much point in searching for death certificates in England or Ireland as neither provide sufficient identifying information when the place of residence is unknown.
As to the marriage certificate for John Cameron and Catherine Campbell, the details are:
1889. Marriages in the District of Bothwell, in the County of Lanark.
p. 47, Entry #94
1889 on the twenty-seventh day of October at The Episcopal Church Uddingston after Publication According to the Forms of the Episcopal Church in Scotland
Groom: (Signed) John Cameron, Coal Miner (Bachelor), 35 years old, residing at 57 Single Row, Aitkenhead, parents Joseph Cameron General Labourer (Deceased), Sarah Cameron M.S. Graham (Deceased)
Bride: (Signed) Catherine Campbell, Domestic Servant (Spinster), 27 years old, residing at 24 Double Row Aitkenhead, parents David Campbell, Coal Miner, Mary Campbell M.S. Ford
Witnesses: (Signed) Henry Bruce, Rector of St. Andrews Uddingston; (signed) David Campbell witness; Maggie Swinburn witness.
Registered: 1899 October 28th at Bothwell. William McNab, Registrar.
David Campbell was either Catherine's father or her brother. I have no idea who Maggie Swinburn was. She did not marry any of Catherine Campbell's brothers.
I hope this information helps.
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Hi, Annie
Thank you for the confirmation of the relationship of Udston Rows to Dykehead. It is as I suspected and it's good to know this information as a certainty, now. I appreciate your input.
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the relationship of Udston Rows to Dykehead. it's good to know this information as a certainty, now.
I know the frustration of the uncertainty as many BCs omit specific info. on addresses.
I have quite a few BCs which only name the area, no croft no. to match which would have been more helpful where illegitimate births were concerned, among people with same surnames.
I've had to compare & rely on signatures for some.
Annie
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Hi Zacktyr,
Taking the family back ten years from their appearance on the 1911 Census is proving to be difficult.
You have possibly discovered this yourself, but there are only 2 infant (between 0-1) Joseph Camerons recorded in the whole of Scotland .
Joseph C Cameron - 0 - Hutchesontown, Lanarkshire ref -644/11 58/ 21
Joseph Cameron - 0 - Paisley Renfrewshire - ref. 573/1 64/ 19
Although the middle initial C looked promising ( thought they may have added a Campbell to his name - although not on the birth certificate it wasn't unusual to gain a middle name later) - through looking at other Camerons with the same ref. number on the Census, this child is not with adults called John and Catherine. Ditto the Paisley baby. I've not looked at the Census to verify - the baby could be staying with Cameron relatives? But most likely these babies are with their parents and siblings.
There is one child on the 1901 Census called Joseph age 0 who has be recorded with no surname.
Interestingly, this child is at Blantyre, Lanarkshire - not a million miles away from Uddingston, Bothwell and Hamilton. ref. 624/ 3/1 7
It would maybe be worth contacting Scotlands People and asking them if they could shed some light on this child's surname or the surname of the people he is recorded with.
It would be good if John Cameron could be located on the 1901 to see where he has given as his place of birth. Sometimes, people could be a wee bit flexible with the truth when it came to ages, parents marital status and places of birth etc. I have wondered if John was Irish - he wouldn't be the first to give himself a Scottish birthplace on a Census.
Out of interest, this link shows a map of 1898 shows Aitkenhead and its miners rows - the addresses for both John and Catherine when they marry https://maps.nls.uk/view/82892388
The full details of their marriage are helpful, thank you. A shame the witnesses are not a lead to John's family.
Looby
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the relationship of Udston Rows to Dykehead. it's good to know this information as a certainty, now.
I know the frustration of the uncertainty as many BCs omit specific info. on addresses.
I have quite a few BCs which only name the area, no croft no. to match which would have been more helpful where illegitimate births were concerned, among people with same surnames.
I've had to compare & rely on signatures for some.
Annie
Hi Annie,
Yes, it is frustrating not having an exact address entered on BCs. I, too, have had to rely on signatures on documents to make a determination about a particular individual. This happens almost routinely with my English ancestors where a signature on a marriage I have to match against a signature on a Will.
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Hi, Looby,
Thank you, again, for your thoughts on the 1901 census situation regarding the infants named Joseph Cameron. I had purchased all four census where there was a child named Joseph aged between 0 and 2 years old. I even purchased the preceding page as the two infants were shown on the top of a page and the parents weren't included. None of the four were the correct Joseph Cameron.
I did not, however, realize that I could search without a surname. Thank you for that tip. I searched for and found the [no surname] Joseph. I then searched for all others without a surname in that exact location and found a Catherine who was the right age to have been Joseph's mother. I got really excited! I purchased that page. There were only 3 people in the family Frances [sic] the head of the family and a coal miner, Catherine the wife, and Joseph the child. The surname was very poorly written but I was able to glean "Heniry". He was born in England and Catherine was born somewhere in Lanarkshire called Caylesham, or something similar - again very poorly written.
So, I thought maybe I could find a marriage for Frances [sic] and Catherine. I did and I purchased the certificate. She was Catherine Smith and he was listed as Francis Henery. They married on 13 July 1900, nine months after my John Cameron married Catherine Campbell. That officially ruled out any possibilities that Francis was John. For interest's sake, Francis' father's name was Joseph! But his mother's name was also Catherine nee Scollens. The marriage took place at St. Joseph's RC Church at Blantyre. Oh so many similarities.
I just don't understand why John, Catherine and Joseph cannot be found on the 1901 census. Are you aware of any portions of that census that have been lost, damaged, or destroyed?
I've tried a few more different search strategies and started to build a spreadsheet of the results. Once all the data is entered I'll be able to sort on specific points. I've started a similar spreadsheet for marriages 1855-1872 for the potential parents Joseph Cameron and Sarah Graham/Green using all the name variables I can think of.
Thank you for the map link. That is very helpful as it clearly shows the residences directly outside of the two collieries in the area.
Yes, I was very disappointed in the witnesses to the marriage of John Cameron and Catherine Campbell. The one avenue that could potentially open doors to the earlier Cameron generations...
Do you think it would be worthwhile for me to contact Scotlands People and ask why no birth certificate matching the RC baptism?
I was called mid-week last week to take on a contract administration position. So, I'm not online now until the evenings and weekends.
Susan