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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Libby56 on Wednesday 13 July 22 10:46 BST (UK)

Title: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 13 July 22 10:46 BST (UK)
Hi everyone!
I'm trying to find my ggGrandmother's parent's marriage record, Joseph Reeves bap 02 jun 1822 Bilston, staffs. and Elizabeth Goodman bap 29 feb 1824 Tamworth, staffs. I've done all the obvious things but they're just not there However I have just found a Joseph Reeves (birth year declared 1820) in the army deserters register of 1839. Can you tell me how to proceed now, I can't see any way to a) confirm this is the same man I'm looking for or b) what happened to him? I thought they were shot so at least that would prove something!
My ggGrandmother was Ann Maria Reeves b 1853 her birth cert, gives Sedgley as the place of birth.
Any push in the right direction would be much appreciated.  :)



 





Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: garstonite on Wednesday 13 July 22 11:11 BST (UK)
Do you know which Country Joseph deserted from ?   was it India - ?  if so - could they have married in India - when he was charged he was only 19 ?
ADDED
1839 - 1842 the British Army were fighting in Afghanistan - can't see them marrying there

Between 1839 and 1842, British imperial forces fought a bitter war in Afghanistan. Initially successful, the campaign ended with Britain withdrawing from the country having suffered one of the worst military disasters of the 19th century.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 13 July 22 11:24 BST (UK)
The Joseph REEVES who is on the deserted list in 1839 (also in 1838 and 1844) is from 83rd Foot, born West Bromwich, a hinge filer. In 1838 he deserted from Chester, in 1839 from Newcastle upon Tyne and 1844 from Weedon.

Modified:
Do you have the family in any of the census? What was Joseph's occupation? Are there any other children?
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 13 July 22 11:56 BST (UK)
Is this the family in 1861 at Leicester?

Elizabeth REEVES  34  Leicester  (wid)
Elizabeth                 13  Leicester
Ann Maria                 7  Deepfields [?] Staffordshire
Mary                         2   Leicester
Emma GREAVES    18  Leicester  (boarder)
Oliver                         6m
RG9/2294/97 pg20

Elizabeth (1847), Ann Maria (1853) and Mary (1858) all have mmn GOODMAN.

There is a baptism at St George, Leicester for Elizabeth REEVES, parents Joseph and Elizabeth on 24 Nov 1847.
I can't see the image so don't know what other info it may contain (Joseph's occupation).

So presumably if they married it was around 1846/7. Elizabeth GOODMAN may have been a widow? Will keep looking to see if I can find a marriage.  :)
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Girl Guide on Wednesday 13 July 22 12:43 BST (UK)
What occupation, if any, was given for Joseph on Ann's birth certificate?
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 13 July 22 12:45 BST (UK)
Elizabeth’s Baptism, Joseph is a Brickmaker. Wheat Street,
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 13 July 22 13:32 BST (UK)
Quote

Ann Maria                 7  Deepfields [?] Staffordshire,

Can confirm Deepfields is between Coseley & Bilston Staffs, all my ancestors come from exactly the same area.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Andy J2022 on Wednesday 13 July 22 13:46 BST (UK)
Joseph Reeves (birth year declared 1820) in the army deserters register of 1839. I thought they were shot so at least that would prove something!
Capital punishment was only available in time of war ('when on active service'), and then generally only in the face of the enemy or when ordered into such operations. In fact later during the First World War only around 10%* of men found guilty of desertion were actually executed. The remainder had their sentences commuted to imprisonment.

* Random statistics from WW1: There were 7,371 courts martial for desertion, which resulted in 3000 (approx) death sentences, of which only 288 were carried out.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 13 July 22 14:42 BST (UK)
Wow! thanks everyone for the input. Maddys52 I've been trawling the census records for ages and the only 1 found was 1841 Reeves, there are 3 males, no names only ages 55 (b1786), 50 (b1791), 19 (1822)the town is Bilston, the registration district is Wolverhampton. the address is Stone st, Wolverhampton, staffs. there are no other details. Maybe he was a serial deserter!  :D
While looking for other children I found George, he was baptised 15 Aug 1853, Ann Maria was born 24 march 1853. the address is Deepfields. The 1861 census is a complete surprise and thank you for that as most of the details fit.
Thank you Johnhood, as usual you've come good. i studied an old map and all the different places mentioned Wolverhampton, sedgley, cosely, Bilston, willenhall and west Bromwich are indeed all very close so I'm hoping to be able to move from this quagmire I'm in at the moment.
I have been looking for a marriage between Joseph and Elizabeth from 1846-1853 and there are no results. Thanks again for all the help I will crack this one.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 13 July 22 15:54 BST (UK)
Have I got the wrong end of the stick with this post(it would not be the first time)

Firstly how do you know the exact baptism dates of Joseph & Elizabeth?

I ask because if the 1861 census that has been posted is the correct one for Ann Maria Reeves then her mother Elizabeth Reeves was born c 1827 in Leicester.

She then appears in 1871 census.

Elizabeth Waring Head 62 born Hinckley
Elizabeth Reeves Daughter 44=c1828 Widow born Leicester
Ann Maria 18 born Deepfields
Mary 14 born Northamptonshire
George Henry Reeves 5 born Leicester --as below

REEVES, GEORGE  HENRY     mmn GOODMAN 
GRO Reference: 1865  D Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 197

In 1861 census Elizabeth Warring is with her husband Thomas and her mother Hannah Burton b c1784

Marriage 25.12.1836 Sheepshed, Leicester, Thomas Waring & Eliza Burton

Cannot work out where the Goodman comes in though.

John

Amended as per correction post from millepede
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 13 July 22 15:56 BST (UK)
Snap John just about to post that 1871 and the George Henry birth.  Looking for a Goodman connection.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 13 July 22 16:04 BST (UK)
Quote
Marriage 25.12.1836 Sheepshed, Leicester, Thomas Waring & Eliza Burton

So that marriage is too late for Elizabeth born c1827 so previous marriage for mum perhaps?
But if she was Burton at birth then Waring that doesn't fit either  :-\ 
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Milliepede on Wednesday 13 July 22 16:15 BST (UK)
Don't want to confuse things too much but could this be 1871 for the Thomas & Eliza Waring who married in 1836? 

Thomas Waring head 56
Eliza wife 64
Samuel lodger 27 married
Elizabeth lodger 28 married

ties in with the ages on 1861 with Samuel being son
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 13 July 22 16:25 BST (UK)
Hi John and Milliepede... I found Joseph Reeves and Elizabeth Goodman thru Family search Parish records, I can't find any census records including them. There are 4 Ann Maria Reeves. I have her marriage certificate which gives me Joseph and her birth certificate which gives me Goodman. I am struggling to find their marriage and can't resolve any other issues. Ann Maria Reeves married and died in Leicester but she was born in staffordshire. I'm still trying to prove I have the right Joseph and the right Goodman ! I don't think you got the wrong end of the stick at all. Finding Joseph the deserter
threw me.
The George Reeves I found was baptised at St Editha, Tamworth, 15th Aug 1853 the same place as Ann Maria, parents are Joseph and Elizabeth. There's another in West Bromwich 12 April 1840 to Joseph and Elizabeth... so can you see what I'm up against? I know this must be quite normal . There are couple of family trees in FindMyPast that we are always crossing over but there are also several mistakes so I don't want to get into that route, if you know what I mean.
Regards Libby (confused and undecided!)
I need to check out the 1861 census yet.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 13 July 22 17:56 BST (UK)
Joseph Reeves bap 02 jun 1822 Bilston, staffs.

Father William, a Miner.
Mother Mary.

Maybe
Marriage, 28 June 1841, Tipton
Joseph Reeves, minor, occ Miner, father William Reeves, Miner
+
Fanny Jones, full age, father Thomas Jones, Labourer

Info from FreeReg.
1851 possible in Oldbury, Worcs
Joseph Reves Lodger Married 29 Coal Miner, born Stafford Bilston
Fanny Reves Lodger Married 30, born Salop ?

Joseph only
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGZ-JZN
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 13 July 22 19:41 BST (UK)
Yes Jonw65 that is the Joseph I think belongs to me. It's the rest of it that doesn't make sense!
Thank you! regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 13 July 22 19:46 BST (UK)
Just double checking. Did your gggrandmother Ann Maria Reeves marry William Ward in 1873. Does she name her father and his occupation. It appears she is on 1881 census but by 1891 William is a widower. Her death aged 32 in1885 Leicester.

Info only

Elizabeth Reeves C1848) daughter of Joseph & Elizabeth Reeves married George Steele Bashforth 22.4.1877. Her father recorded as Joseph Reeves occupation Brickmaker

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 13 July 22 20:27 BST (UK)
While looking for other children I found George, he was baptised 15 Aug 1853, Ann Maria was born 24 march 1853. the address is Deepfields.

FreeReg has the baptisms at High Street Primitive Methodist, Bilston.

Burial
27 Sep 1853, Christ Church, Coseley
George Reeves
Abode Deepfields
Age 2 yrs 7 mo

REEVES, GEORGE       
Age at Death (in years):  2 
GRO Reference: 1853  S Quarter in DUDLEY  Volume 06C  Page 52

So George should have been born just before the 1851 census.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 13 July 22 23:27 BST (UK)
Can't find them in 1851 :(
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 14 July 22 06:02 BST (UK)

She then appears in 1871 census.

Elizabeth Waring Head 57 born Hinckley
Elizabeth Reeves Daughter 53=c1828 Widow born Leicester
Ann Maria 18 born Deepfields
Mary 14 born Northamptonshire
George Henry Reeves 5 born Leicester --as below



You had me very confused here! I was wondering how a 57 year old could have a 53 year old daughter? But I see their ages are actually:
Elizabeth WARING   62
Elizabeth REEVES   44
...
RG10/3286/30 pg22

 ;D

Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 14 July 22 06:19 BST (UK)
Just double checking. Did your gggrandmother Ann Maria Reeves marry William Ward in 1873. Does she name her father and his occupation. It appears she is on 1881 census but by 1891 William is a widower. Her death aged 32 in1885 Leicester.

Info only

Elizabeth Reeves C1848) daughter of Joseph & Elizabeth Reeves married George Steele Bashforth 22.4.1877. Her father recorded as Joseph Reeves occupation Brickmaker

John

I agree with John, if this is the correct family then you need to know what it says about Ann Maria's father on her marriage. If he is a brickmaker then that ties in nicely with the family on the 1861 and 1871. Shame we can't find them in 1851. Will keep looking ...

I may be wrong, but the baptisms you have for the parents Joseph and Elizabeth may be a bit premature unless you have anything else that links those particular baptisms to Ann Maria's parents - they are very common names!  ;)
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 08:16 BST (UK)
Did "our" Elizabeth Reeves marry George Metcalf in Leicester, Sep qtr 1877? :-\
1881 census
129 Gt Holme Street, Leicester
George Metcalf Head Mar 37 Boot Maker, born Stafford
Elizabeth Metcalf Wife Mar 52 Leicester
Three boarders

Re mum
Death
June 1876 Leicester 7a 147
Waring, Elizabeth   
age 67   

Leicester Chronicle, 13 May 1876
Deaths
WARING.—On the 6th inst, at 129, Great Holme-street, Elizabeth Waring, aged 67.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 08:30 BST (UK)
Leicester Chronicle, 4 Dec 1886
Deaths
At the Leicester Infirmary on the 25th ult., Betsy, wife of Mr. George Metcalf , of 29, Great Holme-street, aged 60

Death
Dec 1886 Leicester 7a 172
Metcalf, Betsy   
age 61   
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 14 July 22 09:16 BST (UK)
I think you are right jonw65. I have been trying to trace "our Elizabeth's mother" who like you believe died in 1876. Other than the 1871 census I cannot find her anywhere.
The Elizabeth Waring married to Thomas appears in 1881 with him and I believe she dies aged 80 in 1888.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Thursday 14 July 22 10:01 BST (UK)
Good morning everyone and thank you for your efforts.
Yes my Ann Maria Reeves was indeed to married to William Ward. Her mother was Elizabeth Goodman and her father was Joseph Reeves Brickmaker! He is also deceased on the marriage certificate which I hadn't noticed earlier. The name Deepfields appears in several places so I assume the 1861 census is mother and daughter. If 'my' Joseph is the correct one then he was 40 when Ann Maria was born, so maybe the marriage between Reeves/Goodman is much earlier than I've been looking for.
I still would like to know if he was the serial deserter? Is 3 times really possible? How many Reeves b 1822 in Bilston were there? The 1841 census is a real mystery and I haven't come across anything like it before, 3 men that did not know their own names or occupations? I doubt I'll ever find the answer to that one but I guess I have a lot to do anyway.  ;)
 
Thank you all for your input and helping me over the proverbial wall.

Regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Thursday 14 July 22 10:54 BST (UK)
The 1841 census is a real mystery and I haven't come across anything like it before, 3 men that did not know their own names or occupations?

I think you mean this entry in the 1841 - at Stone St, Bilston?
nk [not known] REEVES  55 (male)  collier  not born in County
nk  REEVES                    50  (female)          n
nk  REEVES                    19  (male)  collier  n
HO107/1001/6/20 pg33

There is another "nk" on the page, I'm not sure why the enumerator didn't find out what their names were, or maybe he just couldn't understand a lot of thick accents?


I still would like to know if he was the serial deserter? Is 3 times really possible?


Hard to say for certain whether this is your Joseph, however I think it's unlikely as the occupation is very different. The 3 descriptions of the deserter - name, age, place of birth, occupation, hair/eye colour, regiment were all the same, so almost definitely the same man.

There are quite a few other options for a Joseph REEVES in 1841, not just the one above. Also, as far as I can see there is nothing to indicate Joseph's year of birth yet? We haven't found him in any census yet.  :-\
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Thursday 14 July 22 11:07 BST (UK)
Hi Maddys52...yes Stone street, that's the one but I have Wolverhampton which I know is the borough of Bilston, there is no information at all on it so I'll find another transcription.
Didn't the enumerators back then have a legal obligation to do the job properly? lol! They clearly had no idea back in the day that people would be pulling their hair out because of detail misspelt/misread etc
Thank you so much Maddys52 I feel a lot better about Joseph now :)
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Thursday 14 July 22 13:55 BST (UK)
sorry to bother you but how do I find the 1861 census?? I'm putting in all the details that I know but no results found??
Thanks Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 14 July 22 15:00 BST (UK)
Libby56

Piece:   2294
Folio:   97
Page number:   20
Household Members   Age   Relationship
Elizabeth Reeves
34   Head
Elizabeth Reeves
13   Daughter
John Maria Reeves   7   Daughter  record shows as Ann
Mary Reeves
2   Daughter
Emma Greaves
18   Boarder
Oliver Greaves
6/12   Boarder

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 14 July 22 15:06 BST (UK)
Libby56, This has and still is an interesting post. For me it has raised more questions than answers with regard to Ann Maria Reeves mother Elizabeth. She was seemingly born c 1824-6 in Leicester.
Is her maiden name Waring or Goodman? Would you consider if finance allows ordering her marriage cert to George Metcalf, this should reveal just who her father was and his possible occupation.
As for her mother Elizabeth Waring she is even a bigger mystery, only found in 1871 census and death in 1876.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 15:31 BST (UK)
Elizabeth Reeves C1848) daughter of Joseph & Elizabeth Reeves married George Steele Bashforth 22.4.1877. Her father recorded as Joseph Reeves occupation Brickmaker

Residence for both on that marriage John found is 129 Great Holme Street (again!)
Mary Reeves was a witness.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 15:45 BST (UK)
Another one!
Has she been mentioned?

Baptism (private), St Andrew, Leicester, 24 Aug 1868
Harriet
parents Joseph + Elizabeth Reeves
abode 7 Coleman's Buildings, Grange(?) Lane
father Brickmaker

REEVES, HARRIET       
Mother's Maiden Surname: GOODMAN 
GRO Reference: 1867  D Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 225

She may have died shortly after that baptism? Sep qtr 1868, Leicester, age 0.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 15:59 BST (UK)
Possibly unconnected events?

Baptism at St Margaret's, Leicester, 23 October 1826
Elizth
Dr. of John + Elizth Goodman
abode Calton St. (Carlton?)
father Brickmaker

Is that a one off baptism to those two? I can't see an obvious marriage either.

Baptism at Hinckley, 11 Jan 1809
Elizabeth
D of Thomas + Sarah Waring
Born 11 Jany 1809 (same day)

Not readily apparent to me what happened to her.
Later baptisms at Hinckley have Thomas Waring as a bricklayer.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Thursday 14 July 22 16:19 BST (UK)
 Jonw65 and Johnhood....Ann Maria Reeves b 24 march 1853 father Joseph Reeves, Brickmaker. mother Elizabeth Reeves formerly Goodman, residence Deepfield square, Cosely. I keep thinking maybe I have the wrong woman here but the same common factors keep coming back to haunt me. I've never come across the name Waring until this post! I believe it to be Goodman but there is no marriage record to be found. I will send for the marriage certificate as I think this is the only way to prove your theory. It will take a few days as they only do marriage certs by post not pdf. Post from the UK post Brexit takes a little longer now. I'll let you know as soon as I get it.
Happy Bastille day!
regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 18:05 BST (UK)
I will send for the marriage certificate as I think this is the only way to prove your theory.

Good luck!
Let us know how you get on.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 14 July 22 18:25 BST (UK)
I so look forward to the results of that marriage certificate.

Enjoy Bastille day

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Thursday 14 July 22 18:34 BST (UK)
Baptism at St Margaret's, Leicester, 23 October 1826
Elizth
Dr. of John + Elizth Goodman
abode Calton St. (Carlton?)
father Brickmaker

Is that a one off baptism to those two? I can't see an obvious marriage either.

I think it might possibly be a mistake in the parish register!
Because there are some baptisms following in Leicester to George and Elizabeth Goodman.

First one of those is 14 May 1828, St. George's, Leicester
John
George + Elizabeth Goodman
abode Colton St.
father Brickmaker

Followed by George, and then Ann.
And next is a son Job, bap 1 August 1832, father George, Brickmaker, but it says the mother is Ann!

Possible marriage, 24 Jan 1825, St Margaret's
George Goodman + Elizabeth Willson
Witnessed by Job Goodman and Maria Waring!

But I will leave it there now.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Thursday 14 July 22 18:45 BST (UK)
Hi,I just wanted to add that I wondered why on the 1861 census for Elizabeth Reeves her daughter Mary had a birth place of Northamptonshire. She was in fact born as below

REEVES, MARY       GOODMAN 
GRO Reference: 1858  S Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 191

However, found this birth in Northampton

REEVES, JOSEPH       GOODMAN 
GRO Reference: 1856  S Quarter in NORTHAMPTON UNION  Volume 03B

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Daisypetal on Thursday 14 July 22 20:33 BST (UK)

Hi,

I reember seeing a previous question about Elizabeth's mother, Elizabeth WARING, the thread is here,

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=863004.0


Saint Margarets, Leicester
24 Jan 1825
George GOODMAN
Bachelor,  OTP
Elizabeth WILLSON
Spinster,  OTP
Bot made their mark.
Witnesses:  Job GOODMAN,  Maria WARING


I can't find them in 1841, Ellen was born in Rouen, France in 1842 so maybe they were there then.

Elizabeth is a widow in 1851,   
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGF3-MNK


Elizabeth GOODMAN    Jun Q  1857    Leicester    7a  360 
James WARING
or
Edward HIGGS


Possible death of James WARING,

James WARING    Jun q 1859    Leicester    7a  137      
Age:  59


I'm struggling to find Elizabeth WARING in 1861.


If the GOODMAN family spent time in France between 1838 and 1851? maybe Elizabeth married Joseph REEVES there.


Regards,
Daisy
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Daisypetal on Thursday 14 July 22 23:08 BST (UK)


Oops, I've just seen that the GOODMAN/WILSON marriage was already posted :-[,

Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 14 July 22 23:52 BST (UK)
"my ggGrandmother's parent's marriage record, Joseph Reeves bap 02 jun 1822 Bilston, staffs. and Elizabeth Goodman bap 29 feb 1824 Tamworth, staffs.
My ggGrandmother was Ann Maria Reeves b 1853 her birth cert, gives Sedgley as the place of birth"

Can you please provide all the info. from the BC of Ann Maria, exact wording & address?

Annie
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Friday 15 July 22 11:02 BST (UK)
sorry to bother you but how do I find the 1861 census?? I'm putting in all the details that I know but no results found??
Thanks Libby

Did you find them on familysearch? Transcribed as RAINES.  ::)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7YS-FHR
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Friday 15 July 22 12:13 BST (UK)
I've just 20 minutes writing out all the responses.....got distracted and it's gone!! Did I post it? Anyone?
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Friday 15 July 22 14:33 BST (UK)
This is my take on mother Elizabeth and children based on 1851 census.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGF3-MNK
Address of census Gray Street

1. Elizabeth (Wilson) born Hinckley 1808
Born 24th May 1808 Hinckley, parents Richard & Elizabeth

2 Married 24th January 1825 George Goodman in Leics.

3. Job Goodman bc1833. Married Elizabeth Ann Gamble 21.12.1856. His father George Goodman--Brickmaker.

4. Mary born c 1834 (still alive with mother in 1861)

5.George Goodman c1837. Married Harriet Barrows 11.9.1862. Abode Gray St. His father George Goodman--Brickmaker.

6.Thomas Goodman born c1840 Spondon, Derbyshire

GOODMAN, THOMAS       mmn  WILSON 
GRO Reference: 1838  J Quarter in SHARDLOW UNION  Volume 19  Page 553

Baptised 13th May 1838, Spondon, parents George & Elizabeth  occ Brickmaker

Married Eliza Cowell 6.5.1860, abode Gray St, his father George Goodman--Brickmaker

7. Ellen Goodman c1841/2 born France. She marries as Mary Ellen Goodman to William Limbert Dexter on the 25.6.1860, abode Gray St, father George Goodman--Brickmaker. She can be found as Dexter either Mary or Ellen until 1901 census and always born France

8. Elizabeth Goodman (1808) Probably married James Waring 1857, he dies 1859. Newpaper article records died 11th May 1859, abode Causeway Lane.

9 1861 census abode Gray St for Elizabeth,Mary and George

10. 1871 census as Elizabeth Waring with daughter Elizabeth Reeves

11. Dies aged 67 in 1876.

12. Another son to George and Elizabeth, Alfred born mq 1840 mmn Wilson, baptised 23.2.1840 Spondon, parents George & Elizabeth occ labourer.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Saturday 16 July 22 11:43 BST (UK)
I'm getting my head 'round most of this now thank you. Most of my ancestors stayed put in their town or village, this branch however are a family of nomads!
Thanks everyone....we'll see what comes next

Regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Monday 18 July 22 14:03 BST (UK)
just to say I am still here!........lots of searching to do and now I have another little conundrum. On the 1871 census there's a George Henry Reeves age 5, relationship to Head ? son...the head is Elizabeth Waring and she's 62...His birth record shows he was born in 1865 and mmn Goodman. My Elizabeth Reeves (formerly Goodman b 1826) has declared herself a widow in the 1861 census....now then? It's not just your help I need friends, I think Marty McFly and the DeLorean would be useful at this moment in time!!
Regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Monday 18 July 22 15:42 BST (UK)
In 1881 George may have been resident at the Gem Street Industrial School, Birmingham.

Possible marriage? :-\
19 August 1888, St Peter Leicester
George Henry Reeves, 22, Bachelor, Warehouseman, 134 Stoughton St, father George Reeves, occupation Not Known
+
Isabella Emma Thompson, 23, Spinster, 82 Evington St, father Robert John Thompson, Fish Salesman
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Monday 18 July 22 16:15 BST (UK)
just to say I am still here!........lots of searching to do and now I have another little conundrum. On the 1871 census there's a George Henry Reeves age 5, relationship to Head ? son...the head is Elizabeth Waring and she's 62...His birth record shows he was born in 1865 and mmn Goodman. My Elizabeth Reeves (formerly Goodman b 1826) has declared herself a widow in the 1861 census....now then? It's not just your help I need friends, I think Marty McFly and the DeLorean would be useful at this moment in time!!
Regards Libby

The 1871 census records George Henry Reeves as the "grandson" of Elizabeth Waring. If what has been found in previous posts is correct it would appears that Elizabeth's husband Joseph died between the conception of Harriet in 1866/7 and the 1871 census.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Monday 18 July 22 19:23 BST (UK)
What is a real mystery about this post is Joseph Reeves. We only know he was a "brickmaker". He cannot be found on any census from 1841-1881. He does not appear to have married (in the uk anyway) to Elizabeth Goodman. Is it beyond belief that he had married under a different surname in 1847, had that I can find 5 children between 1848-58 with his wife and appears as a brickmaker in 1851-1881 census and was baptised in Leicestershire in 1825.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Tuesday 19 July 22 11:49 BST (UK)
I agree with you John, I've been searching and searching for any sign of "Joseph REEVES", brickmaker with no luck at all. There are these possible deaths:

Jun qtr 1859  Northampton, aged 46
Sep qtr 1859 Edmonton, aged 45
Dec qtr 1859 Melksham, aged 41
Dec qtr 1859 Northampton, aged 41 (REEVE)
Sep qtr 1860 Newmarket, aged 40 (REEVE)

(though I'm pretty sure I've accounted for the Melksham and Newmarket  ones)

Though I will note that I don't think we can say he was necessarily the one baptised in Leicestershire in 1825 - I don't think we've found anything with his age or place of birth.  :-\


Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Tuesday 19 July 22 13:28 BST (UK)
Hi Johnhood and Maddys52......I feel so much happier now seeing your comments. I'm beginning to think that my Joseph Reeves was a bit of a 'dodgy' character but for now I'll think of him kindly. I 'm sure he's missing from any census' is possibly he's been in prison. I got stuck with the Bilston factor, how come Ann Maria & another George were born near there (Sedgley) when the rest were all born in Leicester ?
Dear Johnhood, my transcription of the 1871 census shows George Henry Reeves as son to the head of the family ie. Elizabeth waring. The address is Thorpe Street, Leicester. Is there another ?
What a journey!
regards Libby
 
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 19 July 22 14:54 BST (UK)
Libby, spec savers have an offer on this week ;D. Elizabeth Waring is head, Elizabeth Reeves daughter, Ann Maria and Mary granddaughters and George grandson

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Tuesday 19 July 22 18:16 BST (UK)
Hahahahaha! Spec savers!! Love it!! Shall I make us both an appointment Johnhood?
I'm attaching my copy of the 1871 census so you can judge for yourself.
George Henry is still a bit of a mystery, like his father. How can he be Reeves ....I need a holiday after all this but preferably somewhere cool.
 :D regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Tuesday 19 July 22 18:34 BST (UK)
That is a transcription of image. If you subscribe to ancestry or Findmypast then you will “ see” with your own eyes with or without glasses it says “ ditto grandson” if you send me your email address via a pm I will put you out of your misery

John😊
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: maddys52 on Wednesday 20 July 22 07:44 BST (UK)
In 1881 George may have been resident at the Gem Street Industrial School, Birmingham.


Yes, it appears he was baptised on 9 May 1880 at Bishop Ryder, Birmingham. He was resident at the Gem St Industrial School (many boys of the School baptised at the same time). His parents Joseph (brickmaker) and Elizabeth. Still begs the question why Elizabeth called herself a widow in 1861? Perhaps they had separated and later reconciled, or maybe as Libby suggested, Joseph was incarcerated somewhere?

I wish I could find any of the family in 1851 ...
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 20 July 22 08:15 BST (UK)
Good morning Maddys52...what a performance this is turning out to be? Thank you for your efforts I'm so grateful.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 20 July 22 08:21 BST (UK)
I wish I could find any of the family in 1851 ...

They can't be found in the 1851 census.
There doesn't seem to be a birth registration of the first son George, who should have been born just a few weeks or months before then (from his age on the burial record)

Perhaps those two things are connected?
They may not have been in England (or Wales) in 1851?
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 20 July 22 09:38 BST (UK)
As an exercise I recorded all Reeves/Goodman births between 1846-1874, 16 in total.

5 are ours, Elizabeth 1847 Leics,(6 year gap) Ann maria 1853 Deepfields,(5 year gap) Mary born 1858 Leics--recorded as born Northampton on 1871 census (6 year gap) George Henry 1864 Leics (3 year gap)and Harriet 1867-68 Leics.

9 are the children of Daniel & Mary Ann Reeves born between 1857-1874.

1 is the son of George Reeves & Mary Ann.

The one unaccounted for is a Joseph Reeves born 1856 Northampton. Was the 1871 census entry a mistake for Mary (was she born in Northampton but registered in Leics ?)as it could have been Joseph was also born there.

Also re Elizabeth b 1847 I'm wondering if she was baptised twice. 1st time as Elizabeth Goodman 1.9.1847 the illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Goodman abode Wigston St Leics, and 2nd as Elizabeth Reeves 24.11.1847 daughter of Joseph Reeves and Elizabeth occ Brickmaker abode Wheat Street

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 20 July 22 15:59 BST (UK)
Hi John, I have just found Joseph Reeves in 1856. mmn Goodman in Northampton and a death in 1859 which would fit if that's the reason Elizabeth left Northants, and moved back to Leicester in time for 1861 census ?? Giving Joseph senior enough time to make a few more bricks and look her up again. That might account for George Henry in 1864-65.
Still looking at prisons!
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Wednesday 20 July 22 16:04 BST (UK)
I hope you checked on the GRO site for the death age for the Joseph Reeves who died in 1859 Northampton.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 20 July 22 17:29 BST (UK)
Yes John, I just had a list of Joes to check off and there's not one that fits. The death was a 46 year old. I Found 4 on the prison records and thought I'd found him but 2 were sentenced to 15 and 7 years respectively, 1 in Leicester for assault who got 6 months in 1850 (that's a possiblity) the last one was in Shropshire, a bricklayer in 1854 but there was no original document to look at, so I'm leaving that for now.
Enjoy your evening !
Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Wednesday 20 July 22 21:36 BST (UK)
The death was a 46 year old.

Burial at St Sepulchre, Northampton, 22 May 1859
Joseph Reeves
Abode Gregory Street
Age 46 years

Seems to be in Gregory Street, All Saints, Northampton, in 1851.
Joseph Reeves, age 37, Boot Closer
Married to Elizabeth, 30
Five children
All born All Saints.
Also his mother in law, Sarah Hopper, 66
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYM-KFV
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Wednesday 20 July 22 22:13 BST (UK)
Yes I got that one, disappointing but another crossed off the list!
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Friday 22 July 22 19:52 BST (UK)
The one unaccounted for is a Joseph Reeves born 1856 Northampton.

There is a burial at Kelmarsh, Northamptonshire, 18 June 1858.
Joseph Reeves
Abode Kelmarsh
Age 1 yr + 9 months

His age could be about right.
BT is on ancestry.
I don't think there is any other Reeves activity in Kelmarsh.

Death reg
REEVES, JOSEPH       
Age at Death (in years): 1 
GRO Reference: 1858  J Quarter in MARKET HARBOROUGH  Volume 07A  Page 14

Kelmarsh is nearly midway from Northampton to Leicester.

The next child Mary was registered in Leicester in the Sep quarter in 1858, and baptized there 19 Sep 1858.
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: jonw65 on Friday 22 July 22 20:06 BST (UK)
There were railway works at Kelmarsh in 1858, for the upcoming Northampton to Market Harborough line.
Brick tunnel(s) being built at Kelmarsh
http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/gallery/kelmarshup.html
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Friday 22 July 22 21:08 BST (UK)
Thanks Jon...interesting points.
Will have another look at that tomorrow:)
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Rosinish on Saturday 23 July 22 03:10 BST (UK)
I'm attaching my copy of the 1871 census so you can judge for yourself.
I'm surprised by the amount of people who use transcriptions & indexes as copies / proof of their research.

Both are tools but there are many inaccuracies on both i.e. not to be relied on as opposed to the original images/docs.

Annie
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 23 July 22 09:01 BST (UK)
Whilst not answering the "issue re Joseph Reeves" believe the following is correct re his daughter Mary Reeves born 1858.

Married (wonder what the marriage certificate says about her father and occupation)

Marriages Dec 1877 
BROWN    Thomas    Leicester    7a   523    
COLLINS    Edward John    Leicester    7a   523    
Reeves    Mary        Leicester    7a   523    
Wilkinson    Susannah        Leicester    7a   523

children pre 1881

BROWN, THOMAS  SPENCER     REEVES 
GRO Reference: 1879  M Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 293

(image of above's marriage certificate on Findmypast)

BROWN, JANE  ELIZABETH     REEVES 
GRO Reference: 1880  J Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 290

1881 census

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27J-4R6N

1891 census

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:W6DH-1PZ

1901 census

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS4P-9BS

1911 census (13 children born, 9 died, 4 surviving)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X75N-TLY

BROWN, DAISY  MARY     REEVES 
GRO Reference: 1895  S Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 298

(Daisy Mary married Frederick Hull 1920, appears on 1939 war register with him and children)

Deaths Mar 1980   
HULL    DAISY MARY    14JY1895    LEICESTER C    6   2127
-----------------
BROWN, ADA  ELIZABETH     REEVE
GRO Reference: 1893  S Quarter in LEICESTER  Volume 07A  Page 283

(probate and dob in 1978 for Ada Elizabeth)

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Saturday 23 July 22 10:23 BST (UK)
Hi John..I have a couple on my list to check out with those names..the marriage certificate for Elizabeth Goodman should be arriving soon and I've a few others waiting to order. Have to wait for my husband to increase pocket money ! ;) You'll be the first to know...
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 23 July 22 17:28 BST (UK)
Re George Henry Reeves born dq 1864. As previously found by jonw65 he probably married Isabella Emma Thompson on the 19th August 1888 Leics. Her father recorded as Robert John Thompson occ Fish Salesman. She is really Emma Isabella Thompson born 3rd October 1864. Her father recorded on baptism as Robert & Emma Octavia Thompson--occ-Fishmonger.

THOMPSON, EMMA  ISABELLA     mmn UNDERWOOD 
GRO Reference: 1864  D Quarter in NEWINGTON  Volume 01D  Page 179

1871 census ref 613 50 17
1881 census ref 537 12 17
1888 marries George Henry Reeves.
1888-1891 either divorce or breakdown of marriage
1891 census ref 490 126 33--Isabella back in family home

6th June 1892 Haringey.
Isabella Emma Octavia Reeves aged 26 spinster marries James Kean. Her father Robert Lewis Reeves-occ Lace Manufacturer-deceased.

1901 census ref 1271 121 21
James Kean 29
Isabella Kean 30
Edith Kean 6 born Wigston Leics

KEAN, EDITH  FLORENCE     THOMPSON 
GRO Reference: 1893  M Quarter in BLABY  Volume 07A  Page 35

Alexandrina Kean 6
   
KEAN, ALEXANDRINA  OCTAVIA ANNIE    REEVES 
GRO Reference: 1894  S Quarter in HOLBORN  Volume 01B  Page 682

Ada Kean 2

KEAN, ADA  LOUISA     REEVES 
GRO Reference: 1898  S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK LONDON  Volume 01D  Page 134

Emma Isabella Kean died as a widow 8th October 1940 (dob 8.10.1864)at 159,Pine Street, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada.
Father Robert Thompson & Emma Underwood.
Image on Anc* of death with more details.

Believe George Henry Reeves can be found in 1922/4 electoral registers at Catthorpe Towers Stables, Leics. Still unsure about his death.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Saturday 23 July 22 18:19 BST (UK)
Catthorpe?? Good lord! We used to live on the doorstep before we moved here!!
Will get back on to this tomorrow...I'm at a wedding at the mo!
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 23 July 22 18:22 BST (UK)
Death of daughter Ada. Look who she records her mother as

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60716/images/44494_351065-00907?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_gl=1*16wp61b*_ga*MzA3NTQ3NzkwLjE1ODQzNjYyMTU.*_ga_4QT8FMEX30*MTY1ODU5NjcyNy4zNjQuMS4xNjU4NTk2ODIzLjA.&pId=754199211

John

added 1921 canada census image available on Anc* for James and Isabella
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Sunday 24 July 22 14:58 BST (UK)
Well Johnhood and Jonw65...what can I say? You've sent me on a real journey here, thank you. Looking at the 1891 census for Thomas Brown and family I felt a sense of déja vu and when I looked down the list of names I realised why. The four Brown family members had a lodger and his 5 children who just happened to be the widower of Ann Maria Ward (Reeves)! When I was collating all the papers for my Ward family folder I just assumed that William (GG-grandpa) had fallen on hard times and was in a lodging house, how wrong was I ? In my excitement I haven't actually had time to work out their relationship but I will.
Just wanted to say thanks .....can't wait for the certificates to arrive.
 Regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Monday 01 August 22 15:05 BST (UK)
While looking for other children I found George, he was baptised 15 Aug 1853, Ann Maria was born 24 march 1853. the address is Deepfields.

FreeReg has the baptisms at High Street Primitive Methodist, Bilston.

Burial
27 Sep 1853, Christ Church, Coseley
George Reeves
Abode Deepfields
Age 2 yrs 7 mo

REEVES, GEORGE       
Age at Death (in years):  2 
GRO Reference: 1853  S Quarter in DUDLEY  Volume 06C  Page 52

So George should have been born just before the 1851 census.

A gut feeling  :)

REEVES, GEORGE       mmn GORDEN  (Could it be GOODMAN)
GRO Reference: 1851  S Quarter in NORTHAMPTON UNION  Volume 15

Cannot find a Reeves/Gorden marriage.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Monday 01 August 22 15:49 BST (UK)
Deleted

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Monday 01 August 22 16:03 BST (UK)
Hi John, I've had this one a while on the back boiler and like you cannot find a Reeves/Gorden. I see quite a lot of misread transcriptions so I'm assuming this is another case of misrepresentation. Along with the other George Henry Reeves b1865 who's father is declared as George and not Joseph. Father is declared as deceased and profession unknown on the marriage to Emma Isabella Thompson (archive ref DE1582/1/11).
I'm still waiting some certificates to arrive, I ambushed the postman again this morning.
Regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Monday 01 August 22 16:23 BST (UK)
The only issue with this George is his birth. His burial was 27 sep 1853 age 2yrs 7mos.so for that to fit this child must have been born 1850, march possibly. When I first saw it tho' it felt right...🤔
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Friday 05 August 22 19:47 BST (UK)
Well my original quest was to find the marriage of Joseph Reeves and Elizabeth Goodman and this has led me on an incredible journey. Joseph has proved to be the original 'invisible man' (thanks to you Johnhood) as there are no records of him from birth to death although they had 6 children together. Elizabeth declared herself a widow on the 1861 census but had 2 more children .
For those who pointed me in the right direction Elizabeth Reeves (daughter b 1848) married George Steele Bashforth on April 22nd 1877, father's name Joseph Reeves Brickmaker. I still have some birth certificates to get and some more investigating to do but I just wanted to update you and thank you for your efforts.
Regards Libby
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: johnhood on Saturday 06 August 22 11:40 BST (UK)
This is a possible rabbit hole Re the son George Henry Reeves.

We know he was born dq 1865 Leicester with mmn Goodman.
He appears with his mother in 1871 census.
Probably appears in 1881 in Birmingham.
He would appear to marry 19.8.1888 in Leicester. Details of his wife and their parting already covered in this post.
Possible electoral register sightings in 1914/15.

There are on FindMyPast attestation papers for a George Bott (Alias George Henry Reeves) service number 2786 dated 8th Jan 1885. The records show as born Aston Warwickshire, and there is a birth of a George (NO HENRY) Bott in 1865 Aston.
There is a death in 1903 for a George Henry Reeves in Aston.

Question, is this death George Bott or the original George Henry Reeves. I can't work this out, can others.

John
Title: Re: Where to go now?
Post by: Libby56 on Saturday 06 August 22 12:54 BST (UK)
I'm not in the office today, yet...but I think the George Reeves in Birmingham 1881 is the jeweller and there's a reason I dismissed him but until I can look at my folders.....will be back soon.
😊