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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: dwelch on Wednesday 27 July 22 19:32 BST (UK)
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I have been searching for my Great Grandfather John Welch/Walsh on and off since I was 21 yrs old.
I am now 68. I have all kinds of info on John here in the U.S. Its like he, his wife Bridget Hennessy Welch dropped out of the clear blue sky into Delaware Co. IA. There is no story for him before that. All census says he was born in Ireland, cannot read or write. However one of his children, now deceased, said he was born in New York. DNA is not finding anyone of significance in Ireland or anywhere! So many John Welch's immigrating here, I don't know which one is mine! He was born approx 1823 and died in Dec of 1871 in Iowa. Lots of info on him here, but have no info regarding Ireland.
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/39105428/person/322064324934/facts
If this link will not work, I would be glad to invite anyone, through their email, to view my family tree and John Welch
Thank you,
Deb Welch
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Have you tried looking for any siblings?
I believe your tree shows (apologies if the following contains errors):
Birth c1823, Ireland
Son’s birth in 1855, Greeley, Iowa
John’s marriage, 1862 Jacksonville, Illinois
Places lived 1863 onward, Elk and Greeley, Iowa
Children’s’ names include: Margaret A. and William Martin
Looking for possible siblings, could this be one?
Micheal Welch
Birth c1819, Ireland
1860 Elk, Delaware, Iowa census -
Michael and his family with first child, Mary Ann, born c1842 in Illinois
There is a tree for Michael on Ancestry with some of the above information
Michael’s childrens’ names include: Martin and Margaret
The tree shows Michael’s birthplace and parents’ names
I have not continued the search. Michael could be a wild goose chase but I thought I would mention him.
ADDED: Coincidence that John and Michael were both in Elk and both supposedly were in Illinois at one point or could Welch have just been a common name? Did the families carry on family names or were Martin and Margaret just popular names for the eras and/or region?
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…I have all kinds of info on John here in the U.S. Its like he, his wife Bridget Hennessy Welch dropped out of the clear blue sky into Delaware Co. IA. There is no story for him before that…
Again, perhaps you’ve checked for siblings (which could possibly provide clues about John’s family), but you didn’t mention if you have searched.
Repeating and adding to John’s details, from your tree:
Birth c1823, Ireland
1850 Lafayette Ward 1, Tippecanoe, Indiana
Son’s birth in 1855, Greeley, Iowa
John’s marriage, 1862 Jacksonville, Illinois
Places lived 1863 onward, Elk and Greeley, Iowa
Children’s’ names include: Margaret A. and William Martin
Nicholas Welch (I have not confirmed that the following is for “one/the same” Nicholas Welch)
1850 Lafayette Ward 1, Tippecanoe, Indiana - born c1820, Ireland, Laborer
1858 Morgan County, Illinois - marriage for Nicholas Welch and Mary Kernes
1865 Jacksonville, Morgan, Illinois census - two people 40 years and under 50
Were John and Nicholas related or just two people with the same surname? Did John return to Jacksonville for his marriage to be near family? :-\
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Thank you for your quick reply! I have a cousin who is also doing research and thinks the John in Tippecanoe is not ours! I discovered the find and I don't know why she thinks that! Michael was logged as John's father. I didn't put that in there either. Family and researchers had "contributor" rights. And why would he and Bridget leave their home in Iowa to get married in ILL after some of their children were born?
I have never heard of a Nicholas Welch!
And yes family names have been repeated! Would my DNA lead to Michael and Nicholas though?
One little story I must tell you! I and my family visited the little church in Westfield IA where Edward and his family settled. Edward donated money for a beautiful stained glass window! The priest there, as the story goes, insisted the name WALSH be put on the window and not Welch!
Why would Edward, grandfather, allow that if his true surname was Welch?
I have never found siblings of John's but perhaps you have! You have made a great contribution to the search! I thank you ever so much! I will share this new information with my cousin! Again, I am so grateful for your reply!
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You are very welcome; I’m glad you have new leads to search. I understand your excitement; I’ve also been researching for decades and when Rootschatters mention new things, I am so thankful.
I will reply to your post as time permits.
One little story I must tell you! I and my family visited the little church in Westfield IA where Edward and his family settled. Edward donated money for a beautiful stained glass window! The priest there, as the story goes, insisted the name WALSH be put on the window and not Welch!
Why would Edward, grandfather, allow that if his true surname was Welch?
1870 census: John and his wife were recorded as being unable to read and write. Perhaps the name was Walsh at some point and census enumerators recorded it as Welch? As you most likely know, surname spellings vary - at this time, it might be difficult to determine the “real” spelling. Perhaps Edward had in his possession an item to provided Walsh was the more common spelling/actual name?
I have a Stuart ancestor (born c1815) who was usually recorded as Stuart but I’ve also found records with Stewart and Stuard.
Hubby just arrived home; I will try to come back here later tonight.
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…Would my DNA lead to Michael and Nicholas though?…
While I didn’t become interested in genealogy until I was in college, my mum and I tried to find one of her Irish ancestors when I was a teenager. (I have yet to find positive proof that I found his parents.) :'(. Anyway, by now I have gained experience searching for ancestors but as far as DNA topics - is there such a thing as a pre-beginner? That would be me. ;D
Trying to answer your question, I suppose Michael’s and Nicholas’ descendants would have to take a DNA test and have their results on the same site where your results are in order for you to try to find a match.
Regarding my own DNA matches, I have three branches where I do not have any DNA matches (from your time frame). Perhaps descendants haven’t taken DNA tests or perhaps not enough DNA was passed down to me. Perhaps someone who really does know about DNA can reply to your question.
Also, if I am remembering correctly, I’m not too sure that Nicholas had any children.
One little story I must tell you! I and my family visited the little church in Westfield IA where Edward and his family settled. Edward donated money for a beautiful stained glass window! The priest there, as the story goes, insisted the name WALSH be put on the window and not Welch!
Why would Edward, grandfather, allow that if his true surname was Welch?
Have you checked church records to see if there are any other yet-undiscovered Welch/Walsh names recorded?
So many John Welch's immigrating here, I don't know which one is mine!
I wonder if you might be lucky enough to find a list that might have John and his (possible) siblings? Note: you most likely have looked but don’t forget to check ships sailing to Canada. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that you can’t find his sailing — I’ve found very few of my ancestors arriving in North America.
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Was the name of the son who was born in 1855 Elmo? Died 22/1/1924 in Westfield, Plymouth, Iowa?
The death certificate has his mother's name as Bridget Hennesey. Is this the spouse who married in 1862?
ETA It may just be the differences in pronunciation but here in NZ we would say Welch and Welsh (the name of the people who live in Wales) were closer than Welch and Walsh. Some here say the ch at the end rather like squelch with the ch sounded out. Anyway with not being able to read and write early arrivals were at the mercy of earlier folk who may have had trouble understanding their accents and wrote names phonetically or the with the spelling they themselves were used to seeing.
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shanreagh, Deb has the name recorded as Edward. According to Deb’s tree, Bridget Hennessey was John’s spouse (marrying in 1862).
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shanreagh, Deb has the name recorded as Edward. According to Deb’s tree, Bridget Hennessey was John’s spouse (marrying in 1862).
I was quoting from the Family Search record that shows Elmo
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:DH27-9QT2
Elmo/Edward gives his mother's name as Bridget Henessey.
Margaret aged 37 dies So. Jacksonville, Morgan, Illinois. father's name John Welsh and mother Bridget H
Then there is this death of a Julia
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N7TP-YJ4
Her birthdate would be 1882. So a long span of child birth/rearing from 1856.
It seems 'odd' that there are three children mentioned
Elmo/Edward
Margaret
William Martin
to find out as much as you can in Ireland generally it is good to have
religion
townland
birth order of the children of the emigrant......because the Irish had a naming pattern and being away often meant that these family names were precious
The Irish naming pattern is as follows:
1st son is named after the father’s father.
2nd son is named after the mother’s father.
3rd son is named after the father.
4th son is named after the father’s eldest brother.
1st daughter is named after the mother’s mother.
2nd daughter is named after the father’s mother.
3rd daughter is named after the mother.
4th daughter is named after the mother’s eldest sister.
So can someone put up the birth order of all the children please. I do not have access to Ancestry.
Her birthdate would be 1882. So a long span of child birth/rearing from 1856.
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Thank you for finding that, shanreagh. :) Elmo could have been a nickname or his actual name. I wasn’t correcting you, I was just relaying what Deb has on her tree and answering your question since she is not on right now. Sorry for the misunderstanding I created.
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…So can someone put up the birth order of all the children please. I do not have access to Ancestry.
From the 1870 census
Edward, 14
Mary, 12
Margaret A, 10
John Laurence, 8
Wm Martin, 5
Ellen Bridget, 3
ADDED: middle names from Deb’s tree.
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Deb, I found a couple of your old posts on the internet, mentioning no DNA matches. Is there any chance that John was adopted?
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This may be the family in 1860?
However this family has a female child born in Ireland? Ebby or Abby? or Eddy?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M82J-RGK
Then the full census for 1870 without the additional first names
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MDJB-X3D
1880 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MD24-GF5
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Deb, I found a couple of your old posts on the internet, mentioning no DNA matches. Is there any chance that John was adopted?
Is this John the father or John Laurence the son? If not adoption for John Laurence Welch could it be a NPE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-paternity_event
Though if a NPE you would think that Bridget's DNA would be traceable.
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I was wondering if John, born c1823, could have been adopted at an early age. Would that make sense why she doesn’t have DNA matches with any of John’s (born c1823) “siblings”? :-\ My beginner DNA knowledge is showing. ;D
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I was wondering if John, born c1823, could have been adopted at an early age. Would that make sense why she doesn’t have DNA matches with any of John’s (born c1823) “siblings”? :-\ My beginner DNA knowledge is showing. ;D
Well he could of course have changed his name altogether, new country new name!
https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/27978/my-great-grandfather-john-welch-dropped-out-of-the-clear-blue-sky-around-1850-into-delaware-co
On here above the daughter Bridget Cleary Hennessey is supposed to have married a Dwyer. Has the possibility that XXXX Dwyer became John Welch been explored? A favoured 'new' name is often the maiden name of the mother, perhaps the Welch came from his mother if he was a Dwyer. Has the Dwyer marriage been looked for?
From the conversation it states that a gravestone was erected and it said that one of Bridget's siblings 'Alice (m. unk Walsh) imm. to Australia' while Bridget (m. unk Dwyer). What say it was the other way around? That Alice married the Dwyer and Bridget the Walsh?
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…https://community.familysearch.org/en/discussion/27978/my-great-grandfather-john-welch-dropped-out-of-the-clear-blue-sky-around-1850-into-delaware-co
On here above the daughter Bridget Cleary Hennessey is supposed to have married a Dwyer. Has the possibility that XXXX Dwyer became John Welch been explored? A favoured 'new' name is often the maiden name of the mother, perhaps the Welch came from his mother if he was a Dwyer. Has the Dwyer marriage been looked for?
So true about new country, new name.
Wow!! Great suggestion! I don’t know how much research Deb has done. I did not explore that possibility.
ADDED: I just found the links a few minutes ago so haven’t researched anything. Even if I found the information hours ago, I don’t think I would have thought of a possible connection between Welch and Dwyer.
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I wonder if John’s marriage in 1862 was to make it legal with his possible altered name? Could a possible name change have anything to do with Bridget obtaining the (land?) deed and John not obtaining it?
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I wonder if John’s marriage in 1862 was to make it legal with his possible altered name? Could a possible name change have anything to do with Bridget obtaining the (land?) deed and John not obtaining it?
Could well have.....my grandfather who already owned land changed his name with the addition of one extra letter and voila was able to apply, as a landless person, for a large sheep station being sold by NZ Govt next door to the land he owned under a different name.
Re the marriage that is a distinct possibility. I wonder then about that 1860 Census and the Abby,Ebby,Eddy born in Ireland.
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I am just trying to find Ebby now.
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It’s getting late here and I’m starting to blur my pages ;D but I wonder if the enumerator in 1860 didn’t hear the names correctly and Ebby, female, was actually Eddy, male?
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Edward’s middle initial was B according to the marriage index to Mary Pelroy in Akron, Iowa, 1898.
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That's what I wondered too.
Its 7.15pm here and i have not had dinner ......this chase!
I wonder has Deb got the 1845 marriage for Bridget Hennessy to Dwyer? He may have died and that meant that John & Bridget could marry.
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True, Mr. Dwyer could have died or immigrated and left Bridget behind. Or, Dwyer was Welch. So many possibilities.
I think I will call it a night. Thank you for your help. Maybe we can resume another time if others haven’t found things while we aren’t here. Enjoy your dinner. :)
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Thank you for the added bits of info such as how names in New Zealand are pronounced. I enjoy learning about things around the world.
It also can only help with my own research.
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Can’t tear myself away…
Deb, I see that Bridget is buried in St. Patrick’s Cemetery, Akron, Iowa. Have you contacted the cemetery office for her details? Or, perhaps you know her actual place of birth - I don’t remember if that was previously stated.
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Last bit for tonight…
Deb, are you 100% sure that the information you have about Bridget (her parents, birthplace, etc.) is correct? Have you found U.S. records verifying her family? Apologies if you did mention facts in this thread or in your previous off-site threads.
I only ask because long ago we assumed we had found my mum’s ancestor’s family only to discover decades later that while we may have found his relatives, we did not find his actual parents. It was quite a blow to find out there were at least two John Ovens, born c1809 in County Fermanagh. We thought Ovens was an unusual name. We were wrong.
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My Dear Ladies!
It is afternoon here is South Dakota. This evening I will send as much info as I can find to you.
One thing you must know, "Elmo" was Edward. It was a census error as usual. We were never sure about Bridget's parents. Although DNA carries me thru to at least her mother.
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-geneticfamily/thrulines/6D9FC415-4A44-4D50-9F2B-C53EA88F2067?filterBy=all
Bridget is buried in Manchester Iowa next to her daughter Mary Welch Hynes who also died of TB.
Bridget was staying with Edward in Westfield IA when she died and she was shipped to Manchester, the county seat of Delaware Co. Years and years ago a lady from the Delaware Co. Historical Society scoured the courthouse for Welch's. This was over 40 yrs ago! I thought what she sent wasn't relevant at the time. They may be now, but are long gone.
The Bridget you see as John's daughter is ELLEN Bridget Welch Faust. And yes I have a sister named Ellen!
I will send all that I can find tonight!
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I cannot post pertinent information here.
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Deb, personal email addresses aren't allowed on RootsChat. You can remove it by using "Modify" above your post.
RootsChat members can share private information by the Personal Message function. New members have to make a certain number of posts before the function becomes operational. You have made enough posts now so you can use the personal message function.
The Walsh surname is common throughout Ireland. It might also be Welsh, Breathnach or Branagh.
My Walsh GGM lived in Mayo.
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How do I do a personal message? Perhaps I can use the "Attachments" option! I will try
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Ok, I'm done I guess. I've tried sending attachments through here that would really help in the search, but it won't let me.
I have trouble with deep depression and have had all of my life. Since having lost my brother in Jan, I cry over the littlest things.
I can only send the things I need you to see through email. I'm sorry.
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I must have accidently figured something out.
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Hi Deb, I’m sorry to hear about your sad year. Losing family members can be so difficult; I lost my mum two years ago. My deepest condolences go out to you. Life is made even more difficult during these strange times in America and of course around the world. I try to get through things by taking one day at a time which seems to work most of the time.
I have not yet acclimated to hot summers (we moved here just before my mum passed away) and it is still very warm in the house (82° at 11:00 pm). I will take a look at your latest details tomorrow. It’s just too hot to think right now.
PS. Technology gets the better of me; I understand very well how frustrating it can be to try to do something with electronics. ;).
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How do I do a personal message? Perhaps I can use the "Attachments" option! I will try
2 ways.
1. Click on the "View Profile" icon (the one which resembles a head & shoulders) for the person to whom you want to send a message. This will take you to that person's profile page. Select option "Send personal message" from the menu on that page. A box will appear in which you can type your message.
2. Click on the "Personal Message" icon, next to the "View Profile" icon, then compose, type and send your message.
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I must have accidently figured something out.
Those baptisms were in Maryborough parish, County Laois (called Queen's County at the time), Kildare & Leighlin diocese.
Catholic Registers at National Library of Ireland
Baptism of Nicholas Walsh Feb. 1827
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634501#page/9/mode/1up
Scroll back for 1826 baptisms or select 1826 and relevant months from filter tab.
Is there any other evidence which links your Walsh or Hennessey families to that parish or to County Laois/Queen's County?
Many Catholic parishes in Ireland don't have registers from that era.
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This may be the family in 1860?
However this family has a female child born in Ireland? Ebby or Abby? or Eddy?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M82J-RGK
Has there been a search for a baptism of Ebby/Abby/Eddy in Ireland? It's more likely that a baptism register from 1850s might exist than from1820s. If we could find out where that child was born it would provide a starting point in Ireland. Did that child survive to adulthood?
A suggestion for other contributors. Since DNA hasn't advanced the quest for John Walsh, would this topic get attention from more people if it was on a different board? Although I don't know which board would be most suitable as the topic straddles U.S.A., Ireland, emigration. It might also help if the title was more specific, perhaps including surname & place.
Added. Or perhaps start a new topic on Ireland board and include a link back to this one? I'm just considering how to get input from more people who might tackle the enquiry using a variety of methods.
I only viewed this topic because my list of unread topics was very short yesterday. I don't usually look at topics on the DNA board.
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Ebby is a census error. Ebby/Elmo was actually Edward, my grandfather. He always gave his birthplace as Iowa in his adult census. His birthdate, on record is August 30th 1855.
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I tried to attach census records that give Edward's birth as Iowa, but it failed. As for Bridget Co. Tipperary is her home base, as is her parents. But I have a document for her as being baptised in Cork township. Since all of this is on Ancestry, I am unable to share it. But I'll try the url
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/39105428/person/322064324978/facts
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/39105428/person/322064324934/facts
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/39105428/person/19325752060/facts
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Ebby is a census error. Ebby/Elmo was actually Edward, my grandfather. He always gave his birthplace as Iowa in his adult census. His birthdate, on record is August 30th 1855.
Thanks for clearing that up. So Ireland as his birthplace on 1860 census may have been a transcription error?
Was Edward definitely the first child?
Have you found his baptism?
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Edward, my Grandfather was the first child born to John and Bridget Welch Hennessy. He gives his birthplace as Iowa in all census records. However I did find this:
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Have you searched for marriage of parents in N.Y.? They may have travelled from Ireland separately, met on the ship coming over or met in N.Y. and married there.
If they married in Ireland chances are they could have been from the same area but if no then it might be impossible to guess where John was from in Ireland.
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Birth year is the same. Month is different. One is Oct 15th 1855 for Iowa. Aug 11 1855 for New York.
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Birth year is the same. Month is different. One is Oct 15th 1855 for Iowa. Aug 11 1855 for New York.
How do you know that Edward was born in Iowa on 15 Oct.1855? I would have thought too early for Iowa birth registration or is it from a later record?
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Ancestry won't let me see Edward's death certificate unless I pay up. I can't find it on Family Search.
In all of Edward's census records he gives his parents birthplace as Ireland. Most files I have saved to my computer will not open.
I truly think this is a lost cause search for a man who doesn't want to be found.
I'm sorry I put you all through this mess.
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Is Edward's date of birth taken from his death certificate? if so, the information is possibly not reliable.
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This is the best I can do at the moment.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9524442/edward-welch
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Is Edward's date of birth taken from his death certificate? if so, the information is possibly not reliable.
I did find an 1860 census, possibly of this family, where there is a 5 year old Abby, Ebby or ? but female and this may be Edward? Shows that he was stated as being born in Ireland as are his mother and father. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M82J-RGK
I think it is conjecture worth following up on that Edward Welch/Walsh was possibly born in Ireland and came to the US with his parents during the period 1855 and 1857 when his sister Mary Welch/Walsh was born in Iowa.
Earlier in the thread it states that a Bridget Hennessey, the daughter of Timothy, and from Lisvarrinane was married to a Dwyer 21/2/1845. This might be worth following up as well....I did look on the parish register for the date but could not see the marriage.
On the same census the John Walsh states his birth year to 1823 so about 48 when he died in 1871.
Still pondering, perhaps the oldest child Edward is the son of Bridget but not of John? o Bridget may have come to the US with Edward (and his father perhaps) and met John Walsh later.
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…Deb, I see that Bridget is buried in St. Patrick’s Cemetery, Akron, Iowa. Have you contacted the cemetery office for her details? Or, perhaps you know her actual place of birth - I don’t remember if that was previously stated.
As well as contacting the office for details about Bridget, you could also ask them about Edward.
Some cemetery office staff cannot/will not offer assistance, but I’ve found several who have gone above and beyond when I’ve written. I very briefly explained how I am related to the deceased and that I am trying to find/verify information for my family tree.
In one case, I wrote and explained who I was and gave them plot details for the deceased. The gentleman not only gave me my ancestor’s information from their records, he also gave me details for those who were buried in the same plot (they were all my ancestor’s family members). On top of that, the man provided me with the ancestor’s wife’s burial information (she died decades prior to his death) as she was buried in a different area of the cemetery.
The best part - all I knew about my ancestor’s birth was that he was born in England - which really narrowed down my search. ::) The kind staff member supplied me with the ancestor’s exact place of birth which allowed me to find three more confirmed generations of ancestors.
Of course there’s always the possibility that the cemetery office staff may not be allowed to help you, but I think it is well worth the time to write. You never know what might be included in your family’s records…places of birth, possibly exact birthdates, etc.
PS Be sure to include the fact that you cannot travel to their cemetery if that is in fact true. ;)
Note: I’ve only made inquiries for deaths from 1922 and prior. Staff may be more reluctant or cannot give you details for those passing more recently. I also gave pertinent details that I new about the individuals to help verify that I was family.
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Looking for possible siblings, could this be one?
Micheal Welch
Birth c1819, Ireland
1860 Elk, Delaware, Iowa census -
Michael and his family with first child, Mary Ann, born c1842 in Illinois
I have not continued the search. Michael could be a wild goose chase but I thought I would mention him.
ADDED: Coincidence that John and Michael were both in Elk
You may already have the following information.
M. Welch, farmer, residence section 35 in Elk Township. I don't know if it was the same person as Michael Welch.
J. Hennessy, renter, residence section 27.
(Biographical Township Directory, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa History Center. Sourced from "History of Delaware County, Iowa" pages 625-636)
iagenweb.org/delaware/history/1878/632-636.htm
Unfortunately no biographical information for M. Welch or J. Hennesy is included. There's biographical information about some others on the list. Among those with biographical info are a few Irish-born residents, Henry Barr, James Fitzpatrick, Cornelius Kennedy, Abram Parliaman and a man named Young. Each took a different route from Ireland to Iowa. Some names in the directory were early settlers in 1840s & 1850s.
Elk Township and Greeley were mentioned in extracts from "History of Delaware County, Iowa and Its People", published 1914, which are online. Some include names of early settlers in 1840s & 1850s. Greeley was a village until railway arrived in 1870s. Greeley population in 1914 was 400.
Considering the apparently small populations of Elk Township and Greely in 1860, I think Michael Welch is a lead to follow.
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I truly think this is a lost cause search for a man who doesn't want to be found.
I'm sorry I put you all through this mess.
No need to apologise. Many of us are on RootsChat because we enjoy research and puzzles.
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Hi Deb,
Is your DNA on all the main databases? ie Ancestry, MyHeritage, FTDNA, 23andme & LivingDNA.
If funds allow it's worth trying them all as different people have their autosomal DNA on different databases. (There are sales from time to time & some sites allow uploads which are usually cheaper).
Here's an info article -
https://dna-explained.com/2022/07/29/in-search-ofvendor-features-strengths-and-testing-strategies/
(apologies if you've tried this already)
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Looking for possible siblings, could this be one?
Micheal Welch
Birth c1819, Ireland
1860 Elk, Delaware, Iowa census -
Michael and his family with first child, Mary Ann, born c1842 in Illinois
Considering the apparently small populations of Elk Township and Greely in 1860, I think Michael Welch is a lead to follow.
Margaret, one of Michael’s children, has parents recorded on her death certificate: Michael Welch and it looks like Margaret Glenn (both born in Ireland).
Someone has a tree on Ancestry with Michael Welch and Margaret Glynn. One of the sons, John Michael Welch (who appears to use his middle name) was, according to the information from the tree, born in 1811 in Kerry, Ireland.
There is additional information about John Michael’s family but I cannot research further at the moment. I will be back later today. Apologies for stopping at this point.
If anyone wants to check this family for a possible connection to Deb’s family my feelings won’t be hurt. ;)
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Looking for possible siblings, could this be one?
Micheal Welch
Birth c1819, Ireland
1860 Elk, Delaware, Iowa census -
Michael and his family with first child, Mary Ann, born c1842 in Illinois
I have not continued the search. Michael could be a wild goose chase but I thought I would mention him.
You may already have the following information.
M. Welch, farmer, residence section 35 in Elk Township. I don't know if it was the same person as Michael Welch.
J. Hennessy, renter, residence section 27.
(Biographical Township Directory, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa History Center. Sourced from "History of Delaware County, Iowa" pages 625-636)
iagenweb.org/delaware/history/1878/632-636.htm
Unfortunately no biographical information for M. Welch or J. Hennesy is included
Considering the apparently small populations of Elk Township and Greely in 1860, I think Michael Welch is a lead to follow.
Possibly J. Hennessy from above?
1880 Elk, Delaware, Iowa census
John Hennesy, age 35 (born c1845) in Illinois, married, parents born in Ireland, occupation - Farming
Strange how Ireland, Illinois and Iowa keep popping up.
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There are a number of records for John Hennesy on familysearch. It appears that he was born in LaSalle, Illinois and died in Greeley, Iowa. His parents were possibly Michael Hennesy and “Hanora”, possibly Manning.
Just thinking out loud…I wonder if the Welch folks (and Hennesy if there is actually a connection) sailed to Canada, came down to Illinois and settled in Iowa.
Update: from Ancestry
Michael Hennesey married Nancy Manning, 26 May 1839, La Salle, Illinois
Added
William Hennessey born 22 February 1849, La Salle, Illinois
Died: 30 December 1925, Chicago, Cook, Illinois (widowed)
Burial date and place: 2 January 1926, Dubuque, Iowa
Occupation: retired police officer
Parents and their birthplaces: Michael Hennessey, County Cork, Ireland and “Anorah” Manning, County Kerry, Ireland
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I now have a computer copy of Edwards death certificate. I tried to send it, but it was "too big".
Edward's son, William was the informant.
He gave Edward's birth as being in New York.
He gave John & Bridget's birthplace as Ireland.
I received a comment on Facebook that is very hopeful.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/WalshesofIreland/posts/5011626075522805/?comment_id=5571920379493369&reply_comment_id=5612829885402418¬if_id=1659296665136635¬if_t=group_comment_mention
Scroll down a bit and you will see my Gedmatch matches and a reply from Frank Walsh
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This is the best I can do at the moment.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9524442/edward-welch
The entry for John Welch, Edward's father on Find a Grave says "Death 8th December 1871. Burial details unknown. Supposedly buried on the farmstead, north of Greeley."
Did John leave a will?
Was there a local newspaper in the Greeley area in 1871?
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Is Edward's date of birth taken from his death certificate? if so, the information is possibly not reliable.
I did find an 1860 census, possibly of this family, where there is a 5 year old Abby, Ebby or ? but female and this may be Edward? Shows that he was stated as being born in Ireland as are his mother and father. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M82J-RGK
I think it is conjecture worth following up on that Edward Welch/Walsh was possibly born in Ireland and came to the US with his parents during the period 1855 and 1857 when his sister Mary Welch/Walsh was born in Iowa.
Still pondering, perhaps the oldest child Edward is the son of Bridget but not of John? o Bridget may have come to the US with Edward (and his father perhaps) and met John Walsh later.
Deb has confirmed that the 5 year-old child on 1860 census was Edward.
His birthplace on 1860 census was "do" for ditto, underneath Ireland for parents' birthplace. It's a strong possibility that his birthplace on 1860 census was a clerical error.
Edward's birthplace was Iowa on 1870 census. I presume that information was supplied by one of his parents.
There is further uncertainty about Edward's birthplace as Deb has also posted information which show New York.
Information about Edward's birthplace in replies #12, 31, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, 43 and 45.
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Unfortunately the comment on the Facebook page of Walsh surnames was a bust again. I sent Frank Walsh's comment to a genealogist who helped me in the past. She said the DNA match was not close enough. It just means we are Irish.
From Frank Walsh:
"You match my sister, Mary Sandra Walsh - McKay at 7.8 cM, Autosomal DNA and my wife Johanna White Walsh 11X9 DNA. This means we are related along the female line. This match may have occured around 1830 to 1840 by way of a female ancestor"
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Is Edward's date of birth taken from his death certificate? if so, the information is possibly not reliable.
I did find an 1860 census, possibly of this family, where there is a 5 year old Abby, Ebby or ? but female and this may be Edward? Shows that he was stated as being born in Ireland as are his mother and father. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M82J-RGK
I think it is conjecture worth following up on that Edward Welch/Walsh was possibly born in Ireland and came to the US with his parents during the period 1855 and 1857 when his sister Mary Welch/Walsh was born in Iowa.
Still pondering, perhaps the oldest child Edward is the son of Bridget but not of John? o Bridget may have come to the US with Edward (and his father perhaps) and met John Walsh later.
Deb has confirmed that the 5 year-old child on 1860 census was Edward.
His birthplace on 1860 census was "do" for ditto, underneath Ireland for parents' birthplace. It's a strong possibility that his birthplace on 1860 census was a clerical error.
Edward's birthplace was Iowa on 1870 census. I presume that information was supplied by one of his parents.
There is further uncertainty about Edward's birthplace as Deb has also posted information which show New York.
Information about Edward's birthplace in replies #12, 31, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, 43 and 45.
Yes I am well aware of what you are saying as someone who has been involved in the thread from the start. While clerical error did happen it does not mean that we should accept that this is what happened until and unless it is superseded by a link to the actual birth certificate.
I am aware that Deb has posted info from NY but I understood that this is info from, and a link to a death certificate rather than a birth certificate.
If it is a birth certificate could the actual document be linked to please, and please not an Ancestry link as many of us do not subscribe.
Thanks MS.
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Unfortunately the comment on the Facebook page of Walsh surnames was a bust again. I sent Frank Walsh's comment to a genealogist who helped me in the past. She said the DNA match was not close enough. It just means we are Irish.
From Frank Walsh:
"You match my sister, Mary Sandra Walsh - McKay at 7.8 cM, Autosomal DNA and my wife Johanna White Walsh 11X9 DNA. This means we are related along the female line. This match may have occured around 1830 to 1840 by way of a female ancestor"
Just to follow it up though would be good - have you got a family tree from this link? It may mean that there were Henessey/Walsh links earlier than the marriage of your ancestors. I think the comment that 'we are Irish' is a little too dismissive in these circumstances.
Any link to a Walsh name is worth following back, especially in your case when this Walsh family is the one you don't have very much info on
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Is Edward's date of birth taken from his death certificate? if so, the information is possibly not reliable.
This is the point I have been making also.
If the date of birth is taken from a birth certificate then could someone on this thread please link to it. We would be so much the wiser and may have further info on where the parents were living at the time, their names etc.
Until a birth cert/bapt record is put up then I think we are justified in searching on the basis that the 1860 census was correct.
That Edward may have been born in Ireland somewhere. The query is what surnames?
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There is lots of good information on this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rq7/
This was linked to earlier on in the thread
A poster called TimothyMc has found
1850 census record for John.
He also found a link to a gravestone/memorial erected by the brother of Bridget Hennessey (wife of John Walsh/Welch), so John's brother in law, and this states
" Erected by Laurence Hennessy of Lisvanane in memory of his father Thomas Hennessy who died April 1851, aged 71 years. May he rest in peace.
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Donated the site of the Catholic Church in Lisvernane, County Tipperary with the agreement that the Hennessy family would be permitted the use of the churchyard for the burial of its members. Bridget Cleary Hennessy, his wife, was the first burial.
Thomas, born and died in Lisvernane, Parish of Clonbeg, Tipperary, son of Timothy and Kate (Fahy) Hennessy.
Married Briget Cleary.
Children:
Timothy (m. Alice Hennessy),
Laurence (m. Kate Sampson),
John,
Michael (m. Catherine Drake), died in Australia,
Arthur (m. Mary Jackson) imm. 1850 to US, died at Waterbury, CT, bet. 1860 & 1870,
Catherine (m. Robert Sampson),
Alice (m. unk Walsh) imm. to Australia,
Mary (m. Terrance Naughton),
Bridget (m. unk Dwyer),
Eliza (m. John Merrick, 1884, imm. to Australia, d. 1920 in Mossman, New South Wales) "
TimothyMc also stated
'Also Bridget Hennessy married Jeremiah Dwyer on the 21-FEB-1845 Parish/District -- Galbally and Aherlow'
Glen of Aherlow
Lisvarrinane is another spelling of Lisvanane
Deb has also said 'My older siblings remember him (her father the grandson of John & Bridget) saying his people were from "Queen's". ' I have taken that to mean the former Queens County Ireland now Co Laois.
There is also this
'On August 14, 1857, a marriage license was taken out for John & Bridget, but never returned or documents pertaining, found.'
Was this reference to an index? Where please? Can you link please?
Just looking at the thread I have linked to above and the responses there are many clues to delve into.
I make the point that the inscription by Laurence Hennessy is worth exploring further, the father donated the Church land and land the gravestone is on apparently. It is family and more or less contemporaneous with death of the parents and the marriages and immigration of his siblings.
Perhaps it was Alice who married a Dwyer and went to Aus while Bridget married a Walsh and went to the US? Just throwing it out there in case Laurence did get it wrong.
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Thomas Hennessy, the father died April 1851, aged 71
Timothy Hennessy, son died 18/1/1892
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1892/06045/4722301.pdf
Laurence died 29/9/1895 1895 aged 79 at Lisvarrinane. Death reported by son Laurence.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rq9/
John Hennessy died 2/5/1899 he was a bachelor
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1899/05796/4639850.pdf death reported by Laurence Hennessy, poss the son of Laurence above
Mary Hennessy Naughton, not sure if she immigrated but this may be her death record if she did not. It has not been imaged
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rq8/
The records for
Alice (m. unk Walsh) imm. to Australia,
could be useful to find. there may be trees that can be found and we might find that the Walsh that Alice married may have some connection to John Walsh
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Looking at the parish register i still am not able to find the marriage in 1845 but just in February for this area there are several Walsh names as witnesses to marriages
eg
John and Michael Walsh and Matthew Givens witnessing Michael Byron(?) and Ellen Kiely, witnessing Thomas ?? and Bridget Walsh were James Walsh 18/10/1845,
John Walsh to Catherine Blackburn
Eliza Hennessy witnesses 7/2/1846 Michael Hanrahan and Mary Nagle
And .....Found it
21/2/1846
Jeremiah Dwyer to Bridget Hennesy witnessed by Thomas Hennesy and Thady Hennesy
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632715#page/212/mode/1up
Now Thomas Hennessy may be the father (he died 1851 and Thady the brother (Timothy)
This is all supposition so far.
On 19/1/1847 Bridget Dwyer is baptised dau of Jeremiah Dwyer and Bridget Henessy
Bansha and Kilmoyler, County Tipperary, Ireland
Again poss a marriage in Bausha 5/3/1889 to a William Sampson (Laurence Hennessy married a Kate Sampson and Catherine Hennessy married a Robert Sampson - these were Bridget Hennessy Walsh's siblings. ) Got no idea of age except the registrar has written 'aged' in the column for age! Her father is shown as Jer Dwyer, farmer and may have been still alive as the husband's father has dec'd written in.
She is a farmer from Ballough
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10726/5910910.pdf
Bridget Sampson dies aged 70 on 27/7/1915.
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Deb has also said 'My older siblings remember him (her father the grandson of John & Bridget) saying his people were from "Queen's". ' I have taken that to mean the former Queens County Ireland now Co Laois.
Although it may have meant Queens borough, New York.
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Again poss a marriage in Bausha 5/3/1889 to a William Sampson (Laurence Hennessy married a Kate Sampson and Catherine Hennessy married a Robert Sampson - these were Bridget Hennessy Walsh's siblings. ) Got no idea of age except the registrar has written 'aged' in the column for age! Her father is shown as Jer Dwyer, farmer and may have been still alive as the husband's father has dec'd written in.
She is a farmer from Ballough
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10726/5910910.pdf
"Aged" may have meant of full age i.e. over 21. It's been written in the age column for everyone whose marriage was registered on that day. One would have to look at other pages of the register to see if the registrar was in the habit of writing "aged" for everyone over 21. It might have meant they were no longer young.
All brides and grooms on the page have farmer as occupation.
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Deb has also said 'My older siblings remember him (her father the grandson of John & Bridget) saying his people were from "Queen's". ' I have taken that to mean the former Queens County Ireland now Co Laois.
Although it may have meant Queens borough, New York.
We don’t live near New York but over the decades I’ve heard friends and other people mention Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, etc. I could easily imagine someone telling his/her family that they were from Queens.
However, my humble feeling :) is unless there were at least a couple of generations born in New York why might he have said “my people”? Wouldn’t he have more likely said “my father (grandfather?) was born in/from Queens”?
Every family is different, but I am almost positive that a couple of my mum’s family members also used the term “our people”. My mum’s uncle had the family bible (which was lost before my birth) :'( and when my mum was young and would question what was written, she was told our people were from Donegal. (Her grandfather lived in New Jersey, USA a few years before the family settled in Canada.)
Perhaps in Deb’s family’s case, over the years the wording has been changed and maybe the original statement might not have even included “our people”. Who knows, eh?
Added: I was thinking about our family bible; it wasn’t lost prior to my birth. The last time my mum saw it was when she was a child. But, her cousin actually inherited it. I remember writing to the cousin during the 1980’s, asking for family information. Sadly, she always had a reason why she couldn’t help me. No one knows where the bible went - according to my mum, it had names, dates and places. :'(
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Agree with Lisa. Relatively newly arrived people would still be hearkening from 'home' and possibly yearning for it. They would pass this info on to their children.
'I am from Queens' from a person born in the US would possibly be more likely to be Queens Borough.
'My people' or 'our people' or even 'we are' from Queens is slightly different as it encompasses more generations/people than me the speaker.
In NZ we have people, me included, who answer differently to the questions 'where are you from? and 'where do you live?". Where are your people from I would say 'Ireland and Denmark on my mother's side and England on my father's side'
My Grandmother born 1874 in Co Londonderry always said she was from the north of Ireland or Co Londonderry, or if the person gave an indication that they knew Derry, then the village, even though she had been in NZ since 1886.
I think it is worth a look for Walshes in Co Laois.
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…I have a cousin who is also doing research and thinks the John in Tippecanoe is not ours! I discovered the find and I don't know why she thinks that! Michael was logged as John's father. I didn't put that in there either. Family and researchers had "contributor" rights…
Apologies if there are slight errors in the following; I’m not taking the time to double-check entries as it is difficult switching between census records and here.
Your (Deb’s) tree shows:
1850 John, age 23 (born c1827). Bridget, age 19 (born c1831).
1860 John, age 37 (born c1823). Bridget, age 30 (born c1830).
1870 John, age 48 (born c1822). Bridget, age 40 (born c1830).
1880 Bridget, age 48 (born c1832).
I wonder if the John and Bridget in 1850 were actually your couple?
In 1850, they were recorded living in Lafayette, Tippecanoe, Indiana census.
I wonder if this couple was actually the 1850 couple?
1850 John, age 23 (born c1827). Bridget, age 19 (born c1831).
Bridget might have died between 1850 and 1856.
John marries Mary O’Shea in 1856.
1860 John, age 30, Mary, age 29. Living in Lafayette, Tippecanoe, Indiana.
John’s headstone states he died in 1892, age 65 (born c1827).
Obit about this John Welch and his family: https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqd/
If the above John and Bridget/Mary were actually the folks from the 1850 census then where might we find your John and Bridget? Ireland? New York? Somewhere else?
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I have been searching for my Great Grandfather John Welch/Walsh on and off since I was 21 yrs old…I have all kinds of info on John here in the U.S. Its like he, his wife Bridget Hennessy Welch dropped out of the clear blue sky into Delaware Co. IA. There is no story for him before that. All census says he was born in Ireland, cannot read or write. However one of his children, now deceased, said he was born in New York. DNA is not finding anyone of significance in Ireland or anywhere! So many John Welch's immigrating here, I don't know which one is mine! He was born approx 1823 and died in Dec of 1871 in Iowa. Lots of info on him here, but have no info regarding Ireland.
https://www.ancestry.com/family-tree/person/tree/39105428/person/322064324934/facts
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« Reply #37 on: Friday 29 July 22 18:52 BST (UK) »
Ebby is a census error. Ebby/Elmo was actually Edward, my grandfather. He always gave his birthplace as Iowa in his adult census. His birthdate, on record is August 30th 1855.
I think I’ve lost the plot ;D but wasn’t Edward the one who was supposedly from Queens/New York (and not John as mentioned above)? It’s late here; maybe I’m not thinking correctly.
The following or at least part of the following I believe was already mentioned but worth thinking about again…
Deb, according to one reply, has not found DNA matches for Welch. Could Edward and possibly younger siblings have a different father which could be one reason Deb cannot find Welch DNA matches? Possibly Edward WAS born in New York and Edward’s biological father’s family lived there for two or more generations? :-\ Maybe John, in error, stated that “Ebby” was born in Ireland or the enumerator really had a problem incorrectly recording the name, gender and birthplace for little Edward.
Added: Deb, have you checked for DNA matches for Dwyers?
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…Found it
21/2/1846
Jeremiah Dwyer to Bridget Hennesy witnessed by Thomas Hennesy and Thady Hennesy
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632715#page/212/mode/1up
On 19/1/1847 Bridget Dwyer is baptised dau of Jeremiah Dwyer and Bridget Henessy
Bansha and Kilmoyler, County Tipperary, Ireland
…Again poss a marriage in Bausha 5/3/1889 to a William Sampson (Laurence Hennessy married a Kate Sampson and Catherine Hennessy married a Robert Sampson - these were Bridget Hennessy Walsh's siblings. ) Got no idea of age except the registrar has written 'aged' in the column for age! Her father is shown as Jer Dwyer, farmer and may have been still alive as the husband's father has dec'd written in.
She is a farmer from Ballough
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10726/5910910.pdf
Bridget Sampson dies aged 70 on 27/7/1915.
Could this be Jeremiah? ;D ;D
Massachusetts Naturalization Record (from Ancestry, have not yet found it on FamilySearch)
Jeremiah Dwyer. Petition Age 22
Born 23 Jul 1833, Killimore, Tipperary, Ireland
Arrival Date: 10 May 1850, New York
Petition Date: 1855
Hang on, there may have been TWO Jeremiah Dwyer’s from Tipperary arriving within one year of each other. Unless he sailed twice?
The 1850 arrival can’t be him; he would have been born before 1833!
Time to turn in for the night.
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Lisa you may feel as though things are confused but this is just the kind of thinking that will be useful in getting to the bottom of the story. I feel that once it is all set out that it will be a fascinating one.
I had the thought that Edward may be the child of a person other than John Walsh and came on here tonight to ask Deb:
1 if the families of the other children of John & Bridget have had their DNA done?
2 Has the tracing back to Ireland been done for them? have they found any differences?
3 Also wondering if any contact has been made with the present resident in Ireland families descended from Thomas and Bridget Hennessy?
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shanreagh, I will try to think of questions for Deb as well.
I don’t like to give up until there is no hope and I’m not there yet. I think we may still be able to find something.
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The life of the child Bridget dau of Jeremiah Dwyer and Bridget Hennessy Dwyer is puzzling. She was born in 1847.
If this is the daughter of Bridget Hennessy Walsh then what would have been the reason for not bringing her to the US? Could she have come over with Jeremiah and Bridget and then gone back with her father, or been left in Ireland to come later? Did her mother leave both husband and daughter?
I have found the baptism of Bridget Dwyer bapt 19/1/1847
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632650#page/139/mode/1up
The sponsors were Michael and Margaret Dwyer
Just above and the day before is a baptism of a Bridget Dwyer born to William Dwyer and Bridget Bourke with a single sponsor of Johanna Neill.
So there are 3 Bridget Dywers in the Parish of Bansha and Kilmoyler. I will be careful!
Yeek another Bridget Dwyer in Bansha, the dau of John Dwyer and Margaret Dwyer bapt 6/7/1850
I have found a Michael Dwyer son of Jer Dwyer and Bridget Hennessy bapt 5/6/1854 Bansha and Kilmoyler
Sponsors Lar Hennessy (Laurence?) and Cath No second name may be the wife of Lar?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632650#page/174/mode/1up
This is an odd record it refers to a person with multiple aliases James, Jer Hennessy or Dwyer who was 29 and imprisoned in Carrick on Suir. The record needs to be looked at a local Family History Centre.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6891-22RY
Children
Thomas Dwyer bapt 15/9/1851 to Jer & Bridget Bansha
William Dwyer bapt 16/3/1848
Laurence Dwyer bapt 12/1/1858
Kate Dwyer bapt 11/3 1856
Now comes the doubt/puzzle??
Alicia Dwyer bapt 19/3/1862 - NB Alice was the name of the sister of Bridget who married an unk Walsh and went to Australia.
Many reasons
Our Bridget is not part of the Bridget Cleary/Thomas Hennessy family?
But I think there is DNA back to one or rather of this couple
There are several Bridget Hennessys and one married a Walsh and one a Dwyer
The children especially the older one/s in the US belong to John Walsh and another mother?
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Received a message from Deb late last night which she asked me to pass on. Her computer has died. She's currently setting up essentials like email and banking on her iPad. She won't be back on RootsChat until she has a replacement computer.
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The life of the child Bridget dau of Jeremiah Dwyer and Bridget Hennessy Dwyer is puzzling. She was born in 1847.
If this is the daughter of Bridget Hennessy Walsh then what would have been the reason for not bringing her to the US? Could she have come over with Jeremiah and Bridget and then gone back with her father, or been left in Ireland to come later? Did her mother leave both husband and daughter?
I have found the baptism of Bridget Dwyer bapt 19/1/1847
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632650#page/139/mode/1up
The sponsors were Michael and Margaret Dwyer
Just above and the day before is a baptism of a Bridget Dwyer born to William Dwyer and Bridget Bourke with a single sponsor of Johanna Neill.
So there are 3 Bridget Dywers in the Parish of Bansha and Kilmoyler. I will be careful!
Yeek another Bridget Dwyer in Bansha, the dau of John Dwyer and Margaret Dwyer bapt 6/7/1850
I have found a Michael Dwyer son of Jer Dwyer and Bridget Hennessy bapt 5/6/1854 Bansha and Kilmoyler
Sponsors Lar Hennessy (Laurence?) and Cath No second name may be the wife of Lar?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632650#page/174/mode/1up
Children
Thomas Dwyer bapt 15/9/1851 to Jer & Bridget Bansha
William Dwyer bapt 16/3/1848
Laurence Dwyer bapt 12/1/1858
Kate Dwyer bapt 11/3 1856
Now comes the doubt/puzzle??
Alicia Dwyer bapt 19/3/1862 - NB Alice was the name of the sister of Bridget who married an unk Walsh and went to Australia.
There are several Bridget Hennessys and one married a Walsh and one a Dwyer
Kate Dwyer baptised 11th March 1856, son of Jer. Dwyer & Bridget Hennessy; sponsors John & Ellen Hennesy
Laurence Dwyer baptised 12th January 1858 son of Jer. Dwyer & Bridget Hennessy; sponsors John Dwyer & Cath. Whitstone
Alicia Dwyer baptised 19th March 1862 daughter of Jer. Dwyer & Bridget Hennessy; sponsors John Merrick (?) & Margt Ga..... (Galvin?)*
* It looks to me like Galvin. When I was browsing register for more Dwyer entries I noticed a Margaret Galvin was sponsor for a James Dwyer 9th July 1864, different parents.
Unfortunately the baptism register doesn't give residences.
My impression from looking at the register is that those children belonged to the same Jeremiah & Bridget (Hennessy) Dwyer. If that's the case, they were in Tipperary until at least 1862. Unless another Jeremiah Dwyer married another Bridget Hennessy.
I counted 10 Dwyer baptisms in 1862 and one year there were 3 in 1 month.
i looked at surname distribution for Dwyer, Hennessy and Walsh on "Irish Ancestor Wizard" and on S. Wilson.Info websites.
Irish Ancestor Wizard
https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=HENNESSY
Number of households on Griffiths Valuation:
Tipperary 191; County Cork 310; Cork City 19; Limerick 134; Laois 56
https://www.swilson.info
Surname Distribution c.1850 Colour-coded on map + numbers of households
Dwyer: Counties Tipperary 354 (Tipperary is deep-blue on map); Limerick 225; Cork 197; Queens (Laois) 36;
Hennessy: Tipperary 72 (different to number on Irish Ancestors Wizard); Cork 334; Limerick 128; Queens 57
Walsh: Every county. Tipperary 662, Cork 1,366; Queens 214; Limerick 387. Counties with most entries were Kilkenny, Cork and Mayo.
Both websites have a surname cross reference facility. Can search for civil parishes where 2 selected surnames appear. Surname cross reference on S. Wilson's site is based on Grifffiths' Primary Valuation.
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So there are 3 Bridget Dywers in the Parish of Bansha and Kilmoyler. I will be careful!
Yeek another Bridget Dwyer in Bansha, the dau of John Dwyer and Margaret Dwyer bapt 6/7/1850
Children
Thomas Dwyer bapt 15/9/1851 to Jer & Bridget Bansha
William Dwyer bapt 16/3/1848
Adding sponsors for those baptisms.
William Dwyer 16th March 1848 sponsors John Dwyer & Joanna Walsh
Thomas Dwyer 15th September 1851 sponsors Jer ? O Leary & Mary (Quaker? or Quirke?)
Considering the pattern of births. 14 months between Bridget, 1st child and William, 2nd child. Next 4 children, Thomas, Michael, Kate and Laurence had gaps of 1 year 9 months - 2 years 8 months between births. Then there was a 4 year gap between Laurence (1858) and Alice (1862), the last child found so far. (Decreasing fertility? Miscarriage/s? Stillborn baby?) If Bridget Hennessy married Jer Dwyer when she was in her teens or early 20's, she would have been in her 30s when Alice was born.
Dwyer seems a common name in that parish. I noticed a Dwyer-Dwyer marriage + 2 consecutive weddings with a groom named Tom Dwyer.
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Still following the family of Jeremiah Dwyer & Bridget.
Jer was presumed alive when Bridget, his daughter married Mr Sampson in 1889. (shanreagh reply 64 )
A likely death registration for Jeremiah Dwyer 1893 Bansha district, County Tipperary.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/06001/4707688.pdf
He was a widowed farmer, recorded age at death 85. Died at Ballough. Informant was Thomas, his son, residence Ballough.
Daughter Bridget's residence was Ballough when she married.
I tried looking for death registration of Bridget Dwyer, Jer's wife, between 1864 and 1893 (assuming she died after start of death registrations) but was put off by the numbers.
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Still following the family of Jeremiah Dwyer & Bridget.
Jer was presumed alive when Bridget, his daughter married Mr Sampson in 1889. (shanreagh reply 64 )
A likely death registration for Jeremiah Dwyer 1893 Bansha district, County Tipperary.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1893/06001/4707688.pdf
He was a widowed farmer, recorded age at death 85. Died at Ballough. Informant was Thomas, his son, residence Ballough.
Daughter Bridget's residence was Ballough when she married.
Thomas Dwyer, son of Jeremiah, remained at Ballough.
1901 census with wife Joanna + sons Jeremiah & baby John. Joanna was mother of baby John but not of Jeremiah. Thomas married Bridget Tobin in 1889. (Both "aged" on marriage registration.) A witness was John O'Dwyer. Jeremiah was born in December 1889. Bridget died 3rd January 1990, aged 24. Thomas married Joanna Dwyer 1899. Her father was Thomas Dwyer. Witnesses Michael & Maggie Dwyer.
1911 census Thomas was still at Ballough with wife Hannah & 6 children.
1901 census Bridget Sampson aged 50 & husband William in Tipperary Rural. No children with them. Same couple seem to have remained in Tipperary for 1911 census.
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Again poss a marriage in Bausha 5/3/1889 to a William Sampson Got no idea of age except the registrar has written 'aged' in the column for age! Her father is shown as Jer Dwyer, farmer and may have been still alive as the husband's father has dec'd written in.
She is a farmer from Ballough
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10726/5910910.pdf
"Aged" may have meant of full age i.e. over 21. It's been written in the age column for everyone whose marriage was registered on that day. One would have to look at other pages of the register to see if the registrar was in the habit of writing "aged" for everyone over 21. It might have meant they were no longer young.
Writing "aged" seems to have been typical of whoever was registering marriages in the district at that time. Thomas Dwyer, son of Jeremiah, married Bridget Tobin, Feb. 1889. Both had "aged" in the age column, as did other brides and grooms on the page.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10726/5910909.pdf
Bridget Dwyer, wife of Thomas, died January 1890, after childbirth. Her age at death was recorded as 24.
When Thomas married again in 1899 his age was stated in years.
I noticed a witness to wedding of Bridget Dwyer & William Sampson was Alice O'Dwyer.
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Received a message from Deb late last night which she asked me to pass on. Her computer has died. She's currently setting up essentials like email and banking on her iPad. She won't be back on RootsChat until she has a replacement computer.
Thank you for letting us know, Maiden Stone. How frustrating and disappointing for Deb. I hope Deb is able to get things back to normal soon.
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I tried looking for death registration of Bridget Dwyer, Jer's wife, between 1864 and 1893 (assuming she died after start of death registrations) but was put off by the numbers.
Possibly Bridget Dwyer's death in 1873. Age 52. Residence Ballough. Informant John Dwyer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1873/020687/7258792.pdf
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I’ll continue searching in the states :)
I don’t think this has been mentioned before? Could this be your John?
Civil War draft registration
John Welch, born 1827, Ireland. Farmer.
Age on 1 July 1863 - 36
Race - white
Residence - Elk, Delaware, Iowa
Congressional District 3rd. Class 2.
I wonder if there are any more detailed military records for this John?
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A question for Deb. Who were beneficiaries and executors of John Welch's will?
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…I have a cousin who is also doing research and thinks the John in Tippecanoe is not ours! I discovered the find and I don't know why she thinks that!
Apologies if there are slight errors in the following; I’m not taking the time to double-check entries as it is difficult switching between census records and here.
Your (Deb’s) tree shows:
1850 John, age 23 (born c1827). Bridget, age 19 (born c1831).
1860 John, age 37 (born c1823). Bridget, age 30 (born c1830).
1870 John, age 48 (born c1822). Bridget, age 40 (born c1830).
1880 Bridget, age 48 (born c1832).
I wonder if the John and Bridget in 1850 were actually your couple?
In 1850, they were recorded living in Lafayette, Tippecanoe, Indiana census.
I wonder if this couple was actually the 1850 couple?
1850 John, age 23 (born c1827). Bridget, age 19 (born c1831).
Bridget might have died between 1850 and 1856.
John marries Mary O’Shea in 1856.
1860 John, age 30, Mary, age 29. Living in Lafayette, Tippecanoe, Indiana.
John’s headstone states he died in 1892, age 65 (born c1827).
Obit about this John Welch and his family: https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqd/
If the above John and Bridget/Mary were actually the folks from the 1850 census then where might we find your John and Bridget? Ireland? New York? Somewhere else?
Reading obits of that John Welch, his parents and siblings, it seems that the family arrived in 1839 and remained in the area. I noticed that a brother younger than John was born in New Jersey and that John's surname was Walsh on his gravestone.
Deb's John and Bridget could have been anywhere in 1850 and not necessarily together.
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'Deb's John and Bridget could have been anywhere in 1850 and not necessarily together.'
The earliest sighting I think is the 1860 census?
I did find a John and Alice Walsh and a dau Alice in Australia and will do some more on that. Other Hennessy family members went to Aus as well.
Looking at the Dwyers in Ireland around Bansha there were some Edwards and more Edmunds.
If we can locate the birth of Edward in the US that would get us a long way........
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'Deb's John and Bridget could have been anywhere in 1850 and not necessarily together.'
The earliest sighting I think is the 1860 census?
If we can locate the birth of Edward in the US that would get us a long way........
Yes to all that.
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Once Deb is able to check, I wonder if the following might provide clues, providing she hasn’t already tried?
Search for DNA matches on Ancestry for only place of birth (do not include a surname) in
Elk, Iowa
Greeley, Iowa
Jacksonville, Illinois
New York (she most likely would have to include a surname with this search)
Since the first three locations appear to have small populations any results might be easier to follow up than locations with large populations.
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Deb, are you 100% sure that the information you have about Bridget (her parents, birthplace, etc.) is correct? Have you found U.S. records verifying her family? Apologies if you did mention facts in this thread or in your previous off-site threads.
I only ask because long ago we assumed we had found my mum’s ancestor’s family only to discover decades later that while we may have found his relatives, we did not find his actual parents. It was quite a blow to find out there were at least two John Ovens, born c1809 in County Fermanagh. We thought Ovens was an unusual name. We were wrong.
I've not seen any trees as I don't have a sub for Ancestry.
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Deb, are you 100% sure that the information you have about Bridget (her parents, birthplace, etc.) is correct? Have you found U.S. records verifying her family? Apologies if you did mention facts in this thread or in your previous off-site threads...
I've not seen any trees as I don't have a sub for Ancestry.
Wow, the first tree is quite interesting. I’ve only glanced at it as I want to have time to check other trees, but this tree has…
John Welch - 1830, Co. Tipperary, Ireland - 1911, Jacksonville, Illinois
Bridget Hennessy - 1838, Tipperary, Ireland - 1908, Jacksonville, Illinois
Daughter, Catherine, born 1861, Jacksonville, IL
Marriage for John and Bridget - 10 November 1862, Jacksonville, IL
Ten more children born to this couple.
The above marriage facts are the same as Deb’s marriage facts. It seems more likely that the marriage for the couple who remained in Illinois would be correct. Again, I’ve only glanced at the tree. On to checking more trees.
ADDED: the owner of the tree either doesn’t know the couple’s parents or didn’t add them to the tree.
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…Found it
21/2/1846
Jeremiah Dwyer to Bridget Hennesy witnessed by Thomas Hennesy and Thady Hennesy
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632715#page/212/mode/1up
On 19/1/1847 Bridget Dwyer is baptised dau of Jeremiah Dwyer and Bridget Henessy
Bansha and Kilmoyler, County Tipperary, Ireland
Could this be Jeremiah? ;D ;D
Massachusetts Naturalization Record (from Ancestry, have not yet found it on FamilySearch)
Jeremiah Dwyer. Petition Age 22
Born 23 Jul 1833, Killimore, Tipperary, Ireland
Arrival Date: 10 May 1850, New York
Petition Date: 1855
Hang on, there may have been TWO Jeremiah Dwyer’s from Tipperary arriving within one year of each other. Unless he sailed twice?
The 1850 arrival can’t be him; he would have been born before 1833!
Jeremiah Dwyer and wife Bridget (Hennessy) were busy producing children in Tipperary. 6 children born 1847-1858 + another in 1862. I suppose Jer could have nipped across the Atlantic & back but he would have had to be quick. His son Thomas was conceived late 1850. Daughter Kate was conceived in 1855.
Details in my replies 76, 77, (the children), 78 (Jer's death at home in Tipperary), 79, 80, 82 (Bridget Dwyer's death in Tipperary). Imo Jeremiah and Bridget Dwyer didn't emigrate.
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Well, now I am confused. ;D I understand about the Dwyers but we are still looking for John Welch (Walsh, etc.) and Bridget Hennesy? And we do or don’t know her county of birth?
I will get back to looking at trees. That appears to be a task that even I can tackle. ;D ;D
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A question for Deb. Who were beneficiaries and executors of John Welch's will?
Named in the will:
Bridget Welch, wife
Bridget was “to do with them [children] as she shall deem for their best good”.
Upon Bridget’s death, “she shall give and bequest whatever she may have to whom she pleases in the manner she may think best”.
Witnesses (difficult to read, at least for me):
Job Gildersleeve, Elk, Greely [sic],
Adam Murrich(?)
No mention of executors.
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There are 71 trees, a number of them have similar details as Deb’s tree. A few show birthplaces for John as Laois, Ireland and Galway, Ireland but the trees didn’t include sources.
One tree has their marriage as August 1857, no source.
A few trees showed Bridget (a couple of times Bridget Welch), born 1787, as John’s mother. No source.
Actually, one tree does include a census return. It doesn’t appear to be Deb’s couple; her maiden name most likely was not Welch.
1855 Buffalo City, New York
Bridget Welch, born c1787, age 68. Mother.
John Welch, 32 Head
Bridget Welch, 28 Wife
Wm Welch, 3 Son
Margret Welch, 2 Daughter
Geo Welch, 0 Son
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I think Deb could let us know definitely who in Ireland on the Hennessy side her DNA connects with. If it is the family of Thomas Hennessy and Bridget Cleary Hennessy then we will keep going on that track. If it is another Hennessy family, and there are a few in the same location then it would be good to know.
If it is that family then finding Jer Dwyer and the rest of the siblings of Bridget Hennessy/Dwyer /Walsh and going forward from them could be useful.
I am having a quick look for the children mentioned on the 1860 census
Mary Welch and Margaret Welch.
So far a marriage record for Margaret (marrying a Scanlan) where she has put her age at younger than she is, probably because her husband is younger. She states she is 26 when she would be 28 if she is the 2/12 (two months) old baby on the census.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:QJDS-4LW3
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Hello All. I am Deb's cousin, Lilli. I am also interested in finding John and Bridget. The answer to one question is that our DNA did link us to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
One other interesting story in this is that spoken family lore is that John Welch was said to have been from Maryborough, Queens County. There was also a word in there that looked like "Ballynorman" but recently I am wondering if it could be Ballyporeen..?
I thank all of you who are helping with so many replies to Deb! I will try to help.provide as many answers as I can. I am not familiar with Rootschat..I have had a hard time getting registered on the site.
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We also have Bridget Welch buried at Manchester, Delaware County, Iowa. She was taken by train from Westfield, Iowa to be buried at Manchester. I have been to her grave. Her daughter, Mary Hynes is buried next to her.
John Welch died in the month of December 1871. The ground was frozen, so they kept his body in a shed until Spring. He was buried under a lilac bush on the family farm.
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Welcome lillibelle57! Glad you are able to join us. Are you a cousin descended from Edward Welch as Deb is?
Just a point to tell you both ......this is one, if not the most fascinating explorations that I have been part of for some time and I am sure that with all of us looking we will find the answers. You have some old experienced hands looking in Lisa in California and Maidenstone.
So that is good reassurance that Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy are still the figures for the descent of the family.
Queens Co is now Co Laois and Maryborough is Portlaoise (from 1920)
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Ballyporeen is in Co Tipperary and about 114km from Portlaoise (formerly Maryborough) in Co Laois formerly Queens County.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballyporeen
In the 1901 Census in Ireland there were two elderly (78 & 76) unmarried Walsh sisters Mary Anne and Margaret Walsh living in Maryborough urban. Posted only because of the similarity of names to the two older female children listed on the 1860 US census, the location in Maryborough and also because of the closeness in age to John Walsh in US. Birthdates 1823 & 1825apx. These two show their religion as Church of Ireland ie Anglican or Episcopal.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqg/
There is a townland called Ballynoran in Co Tipperary (South Riding)
https://www.townlands.ie/tipperary/iffa-and-offa-east/kilmurry/kilmurry/ballynoran/
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There are a couple of Welch names including an Anne Welch from Queens Co who died aged 65 in 1875.
Here is the link but I cannot find the reference on the page it is linked too.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqh/
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Queens Co is now Co Laois and Maryborough is Portlaoise (from 1920)
Appears it happened in 1929 ???
'In 1929 the Irish version 'Portlaoighise' was baptized as the official name of the town.'
https://www.logainm.ie/ga/131233
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portlaoise
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Hello All. I am Deb's cousin, Lilli. I am also interested in finding John and Bridget. The answer to one question is that our DNA did link us to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
One other interesting story in this is that spoken family lore is that John Welch was said to have been from Maryborough, Queens County. There was also a word in there that looked like "Ballynorman" but recently I am wondering if it could be Ballyporeen..?
Welcome Lilli.
Thanks for that information.
It explains why Deb posted a page of handwritten transcriptions of Walsh baptisms in 1826 & 1827 from a Maryborough register. See reply 32 by dwelch (Deb) and my response in reply 35. I think they are on page 3 of the thread.
Link to the page for Maryborough R.C. parish in National Library of Ireland Catholic Registers collection online:
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0714
Variant form of parish name Portlaoise. A map shows location of Maryborough parish and outlines of other parishes in the county and outlines of other counties. You can zoom in & out of the map. County Laois is next to County Tipperary. Tipperary is a large county in area and the only one in Ireland which was divided into Ridings (divisions of a county for local administration purposes).
Baptism and marriage registers for Maryborough date from May and April 1826 respectively. If John was born in Maryborough parish before May 1826 there won't be a record of his baptism. However, if he had younger siblings born there, they may be in the register.
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Queens Co is now Co Laois and Maryborough is Portlaoise (from 1920)
Appears it happened in 1929 ???
'In 1929 the Irish version 'Portlaoighise' was baptized as the official name of the town.'
https://www.logainm.ie/ga/131233
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portlaoise
I also got mine from Wiki and it seems the town Commissioners of Maryborough passed a resolution in 1920 acted on and made offical in 1929.
'The town grew up around a fort established by English settlers in 1548. In 1557 it was named Maryborough in honour of Queen Mary. 2. In October 1920, the Town Commission passed a resolution that Maryborough be renamed Portlaoise.'
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Thankfully, there has been a lot of information from Irish records included here. Would it make sense for me to continue to try to find John’s siblings in the states? I am still interested in Michael Welch who was in Elk, Iowa in 1860. He was living in a town just down the road from Elk as early as 1846. I will first review our postings to make sure that I didn’t already rule him out.
John and Bridget, either separately or as a couple, may have been the only family members to sail to North America. However, I thought two of my Irish ancestors were the only people to settle in Canada. I eventually found out (with the help of amazing RootsChatters! and someone from another site) my maternal ancestor had at least one sibling who also settled near her. My paternal ancestor’s 5+ siblings and his parents also settled in nearby Canadian towns. I wouldn’t want to ignore the possibility of John or Bridget also having relatives in North America.
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Makes sense to find others who may have emigrated.
It was some thing of a revelation to me when a prof genealogist said that often our forebears struck out to the wide blue yonder of another place in the world but they were often not the first to do this so look for relations or connections.
She also agreed with me when I said i had found a grouping of unrelated people but from the same small Irish town clustered together.
There is one of Bridget's siblings who moved to the US. I will see if I can turn up anything interesting there.
I am not sure if there is a way to search US birth records by actual day so we could find out who was born on the date in 1855 in NY that is on Edward's death Certificate - I think 30/5/1855. Could be a Hennessy & spellings or Walsh/Welch and spellings or even Dwyer?
Does anyone know?
Lillibelle are you able to find out if any names came back from the DNA that are not able to be assigned to Bridget Hennessy and her family and let us know what these are please.
Not sure how DNA works and whether the fact that a tree with Welch or Walsh on it would cut out other names coming forward.
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........ However, I thought two of my Irish ancestors were the only people to settle in Canada. I eventually found out (with the help of amazing RootsChatters! and someone from another site) my maternal ancestor had at least one sibling who also settled near her. My paternal ancestor’s 5+ siblings and his parents also settled in nearby Canadian towns. I wouldn’t want to ignore the possibility of John or Bridget also having relatives in North America.
Then there are the self proclaimed legends.....my gt grandfather told anyone who asked that he was an only child. Strange then I should find a sister bearing the names of his eldest daughter and a brother bearing the names of an uncle, one of my gt grandfather's children and this brother's children had also kept my gt grandfather's unusual first names going down the generations.
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I am interested in Michael Welch, Elk, Delaware County 1860. He seems to be almost too good to not be John 's brother. I had seen him, but didn't get to follow up
There was also a Welch family in Clinton County around that same time. I am using my phone to message you.My laptop isn't fond of my location in the boondocks. So, my access to records is limited.
In the last year, I have begun to wonder if perhaps John Welch had a criminal past, or was adopted. Perhaps he isn't who he said he was? Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family. Debbie, another cousin and I have searched in vain for 30+ years. I am hoping someone here can make it happen. Perhaps that will be through Michael.
Another thought, would Bridget have married in her own parish at Lisvernane? Seems logical, but I don't know how/where to search for that. That's all for tonight on this tiny phone! Thanks again, Lilli
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Another thought, would Bridget have married in her own parish at Lisvernane? Seems logical, but I don't know how/where to search for that. That's all for tonight on this tiny phone! Thanks again, Lilli
We have found a Bridget Hennessy referred to on the gravestone marrying a Jeremiah Dwyer then moving to Bansha and subsequently having their children there. I think that marriage has been linked to.
I don't think we have found a death in Ireland for Bridget Hennessy Dwyer or emigration yet.
Bridget Hennessy Welch/Walsh dies in Westfield and is buried in Manchester. Do you have a date and is there a gravestone?
Are you able to link to the index that shows that a marriage deed as sought but never picked up in 1857. I appreciate your difficulties with internet access, if you cannot link could you describe the source please. Did the couple Bridget and John marry subsequently?
You say your DNA searching 'did not show much on the Welch side of the family' What exactly did it show?
While John may have been a man of mystery and be adopted or have some sort of past it may be more prosaic in that he may have been of another religion (2 elderly sisters I found in MB Co Laois/Queens) with the same names as John's elder two daughters were CoI) , he may have been already married, or Bridget may have already been married.
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There is a John Walsh 23 Labourer on the manifest of the ship Liverpool leaving from Liverpool in 1846 and arriving at New York on 10/7/1846. The shipping record states he is from Queens County.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqk/
1841 census in Liverpool
https://www.familysearch.org/search/ark:/61903/1:1:MQLS-KSK
15 year old John Walsh born in Ireland
I put the above in as while it was not unusual at all to travel quite long distances to catch these ships, he may have been in L'Pool already? Sometimes ocean going ships left from closer to Queens Galway, Queenstown(cobh). Against this idea is the fact that there were 6-8 others from Queens Co also going.
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…I am not sure if there is a way to search US birth records by actual day so we could find out who was born on the date in 1855 in NY that is on Edward's death Certificate - I think 30/5/1855. Could be a Hennessy & spellings or Walsh/Welch and spellings or even Dwyer?
Does anyone know?
Unfortunately, each state was/is responsible for recording vital records. I believe New York State started officially recording births in 1881.
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........ However, I thought two of my Irish ancestors were the only people to settle in Canada. I eventually found out (with the help of amazing RootsChatters! and someone from another site) my maternal ancestor had at least one sibling who also settled near her. My paternal ancestor’s 5+ siblings and his parents also settled in nearby Canadian towns. I wouldn’t want to ignore the possibility of John or Bridget also having relatives in North America.
Then there are the self proclaimed legends.....my gt grandfather told anyone who asked that he was an only child. Strange then I should find a sister bearing the names of his eldest daughter and a brother bearing the names of an uncle, one of my gt grandfather's children and this brother's children had also kept my gt grandfather's unusual first names going down the generations.
Wow! That’s a new one. Sounds like a bit of trouble in the family? :-\
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I am interested in Michael Welch, Elk, Delaware County 1860. He seems to be almost too good to not be John 's brother. I had seen him, but didn't get to follow up
There was also a Welch family in Clinton County around that same time. I am using my phone to message you.My laptop isn't fond of my location in the boondocks. So, my access to records is limited.
In the last year, I have begun to wonder if perhaps John Welch had a criminal past, or was adopted. Perhaps he isn't who he said he was? Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family. Debbie, another cousin and I have searched in vain for 30+ years. I am hoping someone here can make it happen. Perhaps that will be through Michael.
Another thought, would Bridget have married in her own parish at Lisvernane? Seems logical, but I don't know how/where to search for that. That's all for tonight on this tiny phone! Thanks again, Lilli
Hi lillibelle57, welcome to RootsChat. I’ve received amazing help from RootsChatters! Some people try to help out in assorted topics (that’s me), some folks help out where they can and also “specialize” in the various forums (handwriting, photos, armed forces, etc.). The best thing, I think, is when folks share their knowledge of their regions. It’s one thing to read books or search the internet for answers but quite another to hear information from “the locals”. Hopefully, we can come up with some answers for you as well.
You said “Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family.” May I ask exactly what that means, please? You don’t have any matches with Welch descendants or you have very few? Your reply could steer us in the right direction.
I will have a look around for Michael.
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I don't think we have found a death in Ireland for Bridget Hennessy Dwyer or emigration yet.
Bridget Hennessy Welch/Walsh dies in Westfield and is buried in Manchester. Do you have a date and is there a gravestone?
This appears to be Bridget (and some family members).
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqm/
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........ However, I thought two of my Irish ancestors were the only people to settle in Canada. I eventually found out (with the help of amazing RootsChatters! and someone from another site) my maternal ancestor had at least one sibling who also settled near her. My paternal ancestor’s 5+ siblings and his parents also settled in nearby Canadian towns. I wouldn’t want to ignore the possibility of John or Bridget also having relatives in North America.
Then there are the self proclaimed legends.....my gt grandfather told anyone who asked that he was an only child. Strange then I should find a sister bearing the names of his eldest daughter and a brother bearing the names of an uncle, one of my gt grandfather's children and this brother's children had also kept my gt grandfather's unusual first names going down the generations.
Wow! That’s a new one. Sounds like a bit of trouble in the family? :-\
My mother described him as a 'fierce Presbyterian' ie Orangeman. She never met him but this was going on what my grandmother said about her father. He lost his wife, and his 6 children their mother, a few years after they arrived in NZ. He worked terribly hard to look after them - the younger ones lived at an orphanage and he collected them when he could to spend time with him. He was a plantsman but did all sorts to keep the family going and later went back to gardening, garden design etc. Several of these families in his family had Presbyterian and Anglican mixes (husbands and wives) in Co Derry and sometimes that was not an easy mix especially when the Anglican or CoI ones had a few Anglican/Catholic mixes. But not sure about the sister and brother who seem to be CoI.
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Deb/lillibelle57, I see someone has a photo of Edward Welch (1855-1924). Has anyone compared Edward’s photo to Welch photos from the other trees? It would be interested to find out if there are some similarities.
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I don't think we have found a death in Ireland for Bridget Hennessy Dwyer or emigration yet.
Bridget Hennessy Welch/Walsh dies in Westfield and is buried in Manchester. Do you have a date and is there a gravestone?
This appears to be Bridget (and some family members).
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqm/
I thought if we could find a death for a Bridget Hennessy Dwyer in Ireland well what would that mean?
If we could find an emigration record for her that would put her in North America!
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Deb/lillibelle57, I see someone has a photo of Edward Welch (1855-1924). Has anyone compared Edward’s photo to Welch photos from the other trees? It would be interested to find out if there are some similarities.
I wondered if grandchildren/gt grandchildren of Edward's siblings had had their DNA done. Faust/Scanlan etc families
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........ However, I thought two of my Irish ancestors were the only people to settle in Canada. I eventually found out (with the help of amazing RootsChatters! and someone from another site) my maternal ancestor had at least one sibling who also settled near her. My paternal ancestor’s 5+ siblings and his parents also settled in nearby Canadian towns. I wouldn’t want to ignore the possibility of John or Bridget also having relatives in North America.
Then there are the self proclaimed legends.....my gt grandfather told anyone who asked that he was an only child. Strange then I should find a sister bearing the names of his eldest daughter and a brother bearing the names of an uncle, one of my gt grandfather's children and this brother's children had also kept my gt grandfather's unusual first names going down the generations.
Wow! That’s a new one. Sounds like a bit of trouble in the family? :-\
My mother described him as a 'fierce Presbyterian' ie Orangeman. She never met him but this was going on what my grandmother said about her father. He lost his wife, and his 6 children their mother, a few years after they arrived in NZ. He worked terribly hard to look after them - the younger ones lived at an orphanage and he collected them when he could to spend time with him. He was a plantsman but did all sorts to keep the family going and later went back to gardening, garden design etc. Several of these families in his family had Presbyterian and Anglican mixes (husbands and wives) in Co Derry and sometimes that was not an easy mix especially when the Anglican or CoI ones had a few Anglican/Catholic mixes. But not sure about the sister and brother who seem to be CoI.
How sad. :'( He must have been an amazing man to have wanted to spend time with the younger children even though he must have been so tired. What a sad situation all around.
My great uncle’s wife died right after the birth of their first child. The great uncle and his unmarried sister raised the boy. My great uncle never remarried. His son eventually joined the Canadian military and was presumed lost at sea (and never found). My great uncle had other sad events in his life and did at times look sad (in photos and when we would visit) but he never gave up his sense of humour. He was a wonderful, kind man. From your brief paragraph about your gt grandfather, he reminds me of my great uncle (their kind spirit).
We also had an Anglican/Catholic marriage in our family. For the most part, family got along until the death of the husband when his side wanted things done their way. My mum remembers hearing about the bickering and how the wife finally put her foot down, quite literally, (stomping her foot and using her pent up anger) and told the family members to leave the house. What a sad time to argue.
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Bridget from the US has another name in one of the Family Search Family Trees - Burke/s
This may be the marriage notice that was never fulfilled
Bridget Burks
Iowa, County Marriages, 1838-1934
Name:
John Welch
Event Type:
Marriage Notice
Event Date:
14 Aug 1857
Event Place:
Delaware County, Iowa, United States
Sex:
Male
Spouse's Name:
Bridget Burks
Spouse's Sex:
Female
Her son Edward often has a B as one of his first names. Perhaps for Burke? Where does the Burke come from?
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Bridget from the US has another name in one of the Family Search Family Trees - Burke/s
This may be the marriage notice that was never fulfilled
Bridget Burks
Iowa, County Marriages, 1838-1934
Name:
John Welch
Event Type:
Marriage Notice
Event Date:
14 Aug 1857
Event Place:
Delaware County, Iowa, United States
Sex:
Male
Spouse's Name:
Bridget Burks
Spouse's Sex:
Female
Her son Edward often has a B as one of his first names. Perhaps for Burke? Where does the Burke come from?
Yes, you are correct about “B”. I wonder if she married again (prior to her 1857 marriage), to a man named Burke/s? I’ll have a look around.
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Still looking. In the meantime, I wonder if Bridget Hennesy died prior to 1857 and John happened to marry another lady with, coincidentally, the first name of Bridget? No, that can’t be correct. I think Hennesy has been mentioned in records after 1860.
Added: ancestry doesn’t have that record, at least not for that exact date.
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We have found a Bridget Hennessy referred to on the gravestone marrying a Jeremiah Dwyer then moving to Bansha and subsequently having their children there. I think that marriage has been linked to.
I don't think we have found a death in Ireland for Bridget Hennessy Dwyer or emigration yet.
Bridget Hennessy Welch/Walsh dies in Westfield and is buried in Manchester.
Collating evidence + some sources for Jeremiah Dwyer & Bridget (Hennessy).
Marriage 21st Feb. 1846. No residence or parents' names in register. Link to register in Shanreagh's reply #64.
Children in birth order with baptism dates:
Bridget 19th January 1847 (Link in shanreagh's reply #74)
William 16th March 1848, sponsors John Dwyer & Joanna Walsh
Thomas 15th Sep. 1851, sponsors Jer. O'Leary & Mary Qu.....
Michael 5th June 1854, sponsors Laurence Hennessy & Cath. ___ (Link reply #74)
Kate 11th March 1856, sponsors John & Ellen Hennessy
Laurence 12th June 1858, sponsors John Dwyer & Cath. Whitstone
Alice 19th March 1862, sponsors John Merrick & Margaret Ga... (possibly Galvin)
Alice is the last child of the marriage we've found so far. If there were births 1864 or later they could be cross-checked with baptisms to establish residence/townland.
Judging by the births, it seems to me that Jer & Bridget Dwyer remained in the parish from their wedding and for most of 1850s and were still there in 1861/2. I doubt if either of them emigrated.
Among Jeremiah Dwyer entries in Tipperary on Griffiths' Valuation was 1 in Ballough townland, civil parish Templeneiry. I concentrated on that because a Bridget Dwyer of Ballough was daughter of a Jeremiah Dwyer, marriage 1889 to William Sampson (reply #64). Jeremy Dwyer occupied a house, offices and 32 acres of land. Michael Dwyer and William Dwyer were also occupiers in the townland. There were 787 acres in the townland, divided into 21 holdings.
Marriages of children of Jeremiah Dwyer:
Bridget to William Sampson 1889. Bridget's residence was Ballough. (Link reply #64)
Thomas 1889 (This wife died a year later after birth of their only child.) 1899 to a Dwyer bride. (Replies #79 & 80) A witness to one marriage was Alice O'Dwyer. Jeremiah was alive in 1889 as per marriage registrations.
Death registrations:
Bridget Dwyer 1873 Tipperary SRD, Bansha Reg. District. Farmer's wife, died at Ballough, age 52. (Reply #82)
Jeremiah Dwyer 1893 Tipperary SRD, Bansha Reg. District. Died at Ballough. Widowed farmer, age 85. Informant son Thomas. (Reply #78)
Thomas Dwyer, Jeremiah's son, remained at Ballough and was there for 1901 & 1911 censuses. There were other Dwyer households there, some headed by widows.
This is so far only conjecture that the Jeremiah Dwyer who married Bridget Hennessy was the same Jeremiah who lived and died at Ballough. It's also conjecture that the Bridget Dwyer who died in 1873 in Ballough townland was the wife of Jeremiah.
Summing up:
There is no firm (i.e. primary written) evidence from the above that the Bridget Hennessy who married Jeremiah Dwyer was the daughter of Thomas Hennessy of Lisvarranne as neither names of fathers nor residences of groom or bride were noted in the church marriage register.
However names of some of Bridget & Jer's children (Bridget, Thomas, Laurence, Alice) were same as some members of Thomas & Bridget Hennessy family. A baptism sponsor was Laurence Hennessy. (Caveat, Laurence may have been a common name locally.)
Jer & Bridget Dwyer seem to have remained in Tipperary after their marriage and for most of 1850s. It's unlikely that they went to U.S. Bridget was still in Tipperary in 1862 (baptism of Alice).
If Jeremiah, husband of Bridget Hennessy, was the same Jeremiah who lived in Ballough townland, he died there in 1893. If it was the same Jeremiah, Bridget may have died there in 1873.
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We have found a Bridget Hennessy referred to on the gravestone marrying a Jeremiah Dwyer then moving to Bansha and subsequently having their children there.
Bridget Hennessy Welch/Walsh dies in Westfield and is buried in Manchester. Do you have a date and is there a gravestone?
1. Clarification.
The information on Find a Grave website is that Bridget Hennessy, daughter of Thomas of Lisservane, married "unknown Dwyer". It also said that one of her sisters married "unknown Walsh". It didn't say that Bridget's husband was called Jeremiah. It also has names of spouses of other siblings and emigration information about some. All it said about Bridget is that her husband was Dwyer. What is the source of the information on that Find a Grave entry? How reliable is it? There was a suggestion in a reply a few days ago (by shanreagh ?) that surname of Bridget's husband may have been mixed up with that of her sister.
The link to Find a Grave was posted by TimothyMc on a FamilySearch forum. He follows it up with the information that a Bridget Hennessy married Jeremiah Dwyer in 1846.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rq7/
The Bridget Hennessy who married Jeremiah Dwyer in Tipperary/Limerick in 1846 remained in Ireland having children with Jeremiah. She can't be the Bridget Hennessy who went to America and married John Walsh.
Bridget Hennessy, wife of Jeremiah Dwyer may or may not have been a daughter of Thomas Hennessy of Lisservanne.
2. I recall seeing a photo of Bridget Hennessy Walsh's grave. There might be a link in a previous reply.
Added. Reply 113 from Lisa.
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Among Jeremiah Dwyer entries in Tipperary on Griffiths' Valuation was 1 in Ballough townland, civil parish Templeneiry. I concentrated on that because a Bridget Dwyer of Ballough was daughter of a Jeremiah Dwyer, marriage 1889 to William Sampson (reply #64). Jeremy Dwyer occupied a house, offices and 32 acres of land. Michael Dwyer and William Dwyer were also occupiers in the townland. There were 787 acres in the townland, divided into 21 holdings.
Looked again at Griffiths.
Jeremiah Dwyer had 3 subtenants in houses with gardens on the land he occupied in Ballagh townland.
2 other townlands in Templeneiry civil parish had occupiers named Jeremiah Dwyer.
3 entries in Ballydavid townland + 2 entries for William Dwyer (Jer). William would have been a son of a Jeremiah Dwyer. Another William (Wm) had 2 holdings; that William was son of a William.
1 holding in Boleen townland
Jeremiah Dwyer who married Bridget Henry might have been any of the above Jeremiah Dwyers.
Templeneiry is the civil parish associated with Bansha & Kilmoyler R.C. parish, where children of Jer & Bridget Dwyer were baptised.
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An example of how common the Dwyer surname was in the area.
Marriage in Bansha registration district 1865
Jeremiah Dwyer 28 farmer Ballymorris; father William (deceased)
Alice Dwyer full age spinster father Jeremiah Dwyer, farmer
I can guess what they called one of their sons!.
I also noticed a Dwyer man marrying a Dwyer widow.
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I am interested in Michael Welch, Elk, Delaware County 1860. He seems to be almost too good to not be John 's brother. I had seen him, but didn't get to follow up
Another thought, would Bridget have married in her own parish at Lisvernane?
If he wasn't a brother he may have been a cousin or other relative, e.g. uncles and nephews might be near in age. Or it may be coincidence.
A woman generally married in her own parish if she was living at home at the time.
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spoken family lore is that John Welch was said to have been from Maryborough, Queens County. There was also a word in there that looked like "Ballynorman"
Was Ballynorman written by a family member recording spoken memories?
John may have been born in or near Maryborough but how near is open to question.
Registration map browse function on SWilson.Info website
https://www.swilson.info/regdistmap.php
Maryborough/Portlaoise is in Mountmellick Registration District. Part of the registration district is in Queen's County and part in King's County. Click on Mountmellick for a list of civil parishes in the reg. district + a map.
The town of Maryborough is in Borris civil parish. Click on Borris for list of townlands in the parish. No townland on the list resembles Ballynorman.
Click on names of other civil parishes for list of townlands in each.
An adjacent registration district is Abbeyleix. Ballyroan is a civil parish in that district.
The website has a Townland Database and a Placename Search function with soundex but for names beginning with Bally you'd be there forever.
"Ballynorman" may have been a mishearing or a mis-spelling. Trying to imagine it being spoken, if it was from Irish, "nor" may have been na (of).
Some townlands had/have alternate names. Some townlands contain/ed sub-townlands. I was under the impression that a great-uncle of mine was frequently moving around a parish, judging by the different residences on his children's birth registrations. I now know that the different placenames were all the same place, the official name, the old name and the name of a sub-townland.
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Deleted big mess with embedded quotes....see below.
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Goodness Maidenstone what alot of work you have done! Thank you.
Perhaps a little bit more than conjecture as the names of the witnesses to the 1846 marriage were Thomas Hennessy, the name of the father of the Glen O Aherlow Hennessys and donor of the land where the grave yard and church were. Another witness was Thady Hennessy. Thomas & Bridget Cleary Hennessy had a son called Timothy and Thady is Irish for Timothy.
If they had said 'of this parish' or something similar it would be much more definite.
'21/2/1846
Jeremiah Dwyer to Bridget Hennesy witnessed by Thomas Hennesy and Thady Hennesy
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632715#page/212/mode/1up
Now Thomas Hennessy may be the father (he died 1851 and Thady the brother (Timothy)
This is all supposition so far.'
Re the wording I have seen a Findagrave reference to the grave and this pen picture is written there.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852022/thomas-hennessy
I did do some Walsh searching in Aus and saw a brief ref in Sydney to a Walsh family that could be looked at
I noted, somewhere, that one of the sponsors of the child born in 1862 was a Merrick and that was the married name of a sister who emigrated to Australia.
If we strike and search for other Bridget Hennessys then we possibly lose or weaken the DNA link back to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
I don't know enough about DNA, and we have not been advised of the amounts, to know if the amounts showing up for the Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy combination are indicative of direct family or if they could be a link through a brother or sister of Thomas or Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
I seem to recall a few Bridget Hennessys to parents other than this Thomas Hennessy and this Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
Also are the links showing to the Cleary side?
Just had a thought that Thomas Hennessy may have had another daughter named Bridget? Either during the marriage or after the death of Bridget Cleary or there was a NPE with one of the other daughters?
Also the family seem to be saying that their Bridget was born c1830. If this is the one who married Jer Dwyer then she would have been about 16 and a parent would have needed to give consent.
I have seen a margin note sometimes or that may be why Thomas Hennessy was one of the witnesses?
Is it possible to find out who logged the Findagrave entry and correspond directly with them about the pen portrait of the family that is on the entry?
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Back to Griffiths' Valuation.
Livarranane townland acreage was 661. Around a third of the land was occupied by a Hennessy or let by one of them to someone. In addition they had tenants in 14 houses and let the constabulary barracks and a quarry. Laurence, Timothy, Patrick, Arthur, John and Michael Hennessy.
I was intrigued that it was Bridget Welch who bought the farm in Iowa and not her husband. If she belonged to the Henessy family of Lissarrravane, she may have used an inheritance or her dowry to buy it.
What was the law on married women owning land in the state then?
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Re the wording I have seen a Findagrave reference to the grave and this pen picture is written there.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852022/thomas-hennessy
I noted, somewhere, that one of the sponsors of the child born in 1862 was a Merrick and that was the married name of a sister who emigrated to Australia.
I seem to recall a few Bridget Hennessys to parents other than this Thomas Hennessy and this Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
Also the family seem to be saying that their Bridget was born c1830. If this is the one who married Jer Dwyer then she would have been about 16 and a parent would have needed to give consent.
Is it possible to find out who logged the Findagrave entry and correspond directly with them about the pen portrait of the family that is on the entry?
Re the Thomas Hennessy grave. We don't know how much of the information was taken from the gravestone and what was from other sources.
I think I saw a baptism to the Merrick couple but I didn't take a note. It may have been a different couple.
There were Bridget/Biddy Hennessy baptisms in 1823 & 1826 in Galbally & Aherlow parish. Either would have been a suitable age to marry in 1846. A Bridget Henesy married McArthy in Garbally in 1844; she may have been one of those baptisms.
Typical age of a bride then would be late teens to early twenties. Possibly younger if a man was in a hurry to wed.
If the Bridget Dwyer who died in Bansha district in 1873 was the wife of Jer Dwyer and if her recorded age at death (52) was accurate, then she was born around 1821. That would make her about 41 when Alice, the last known child of her marriage to Jeremiah was born.
I'm fairly certain that Bridget Hennessy who married Jeremiah Dwyer was in Ireland when Bridget Hennessy, wife of John Welch was in Iowa.
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Back to Griffiths' Valuation.
Livarranane townland acreage was 661. Around a third of the land was occupied by a Hennessy or let by one of them to someone. In addition they had tenants in 14 houses and let the constabulary barracks and a quarry. Laurence, Timothy, Patrick, Arthur, John and Michael Hennessy.
I was intrigued that it was Bridget Welch who bought the farm in Iowa and not her husband. If she belonged to the Henessy family of Lissarrravane, she may have used an inheritance or her dowry to buy it.
What was the law on married women owning land in the state then?
Yes I had the thought that these Hennessy's were a fairly wealthy family. So it did not surprise me that Bridget bought the land. I think I read further back that only naturalised citizens could buy land and only males were required to be naturalised so that was how Bridget was able to buy the land.
The query is why was John Walsh/Welch not able to buy and this may be linked to not being naturalised and why was he not naturalised?
I am not sure about what evidence had to be provided in those days as to identification. If he was the 'international man of mystery' as my mother referred to her grandfather (he who for some reason said he was an only child see further up the thread) then he may not have been able to provide this.
Some links below provide the process.
Thoughts
John Walsh may not have been in the country long enough to start the process, let alone complete it. .
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/federal/naturalization-process-in-u-s-early-history/
A potential citizen could go to any court of record after two years residency in the U.S. and file a declaration of intent to become a citizen. Then after three more years the immigrant could seek naturalization papers to complete the process.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/United_States_Naturalization_and_Citizenship
Do Deb or lillibelle have information on the land purchase please. Title deeds or application forms?
have we looked for John Walsh becoming naturalised?
Yes I agree that the Bridget/Jer Dwyer is not our Iowa Bridget but the question is how does the Iowa Bridget link to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy?
Is the Cleary side showing in the DNA or just the Hennessy side?
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Yes I had the thought that these Hennessy's were a fairly wealthy family. So it did not surprise me that Bridget bought the land.
I looked for Hennessy wills.
Calendars of Wills and Administrations 1858-1920
www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie
Too late for Thomas Hennessy who died in 1851.
Timothy Hennessy of Lisvernane, Co. Tipperary, farmer; died 5th March 1905. Probate granted to Christopher Lee, teacher. Effects £238
Timothy Hennessy of Lisvernane, Co. Tipperary, died 24th April 1909. Probate granted to Ellen, his widow. Effects £448.
I also checked for Jeremiah Dwyer wills. Didn't find one for Bridget Hennessy's husband.
These Jeremiah Dwyers weren't short of money:
1867 of Ruane (Bansha). Legatees another Jeremiah and Edmond. Effects under £450. (£450 was a tax threshhold; next one was £600.)
1907 Effects over £1000. He was the same Jeremiah whose marriage I found to a daughter of another Jeremiah Dwyer.
By contrast, my small farmers in Mayo left the grand sums of £25 and £7. Tipperary has better land.
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have we looked for John Walsh becoming naturalised?
Of course I could have missed it, but I’ve searched for any and all records for John Welch which typically included Walsh. I will look again tonight using just the Walsh spelling.
There are quite a few naturalization records for other U.S. states but Iowa had very few or none - I don’t remember now.
The query is why was John Walsh/Welch not able to buy and this may be linked to not being naturalised and why was he not naturalised?
Our house was built much later than the time frame for the Welch family (1930), but maybe this could be a reason?
We were told by the descendant of the man who built the house, let’s say “Patrick”, that Patrick’s wife homesteaded the property. (Patrick and his wife were born in America.) I believe that we were told that Patrick was ill at the time which is why Mrs. Patrick had the land and structures in her name. Whether that is true has not been confirmed.
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Looking for a possible Hennessy Burke connection, one of the Family Search Trees had Bridget H being a Bridget Burke and the oldest son Edward Welch having an initial B in some of his records.
Richard Burke is the child
Baptism Date 12 Dec 1844
Baptism Place Bansha and Kilmoyler, County Tipperary, Ireland
Father's Name John Burke
Mother's Name Bridget Hennessy
Sponsors John Ryan and Mary Collins
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632650#page/121/mode/1up
Event Type Baptism
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FX2-T4XF
Something I had not appreciated until now while looking for the books with the records in is that Bansha is next door to Galbally and Aherlow.
I will keep looking.
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Pat Bourke
Baptism Date 11 Mar 1850
Baptism Place Bansha and Kilmoyler, County Tipperary, Ireland
Father's Name John Bourke
Mother's Name Bridget Hennessy
Event Type Baptism
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6N35-NT47
Sponsors
John Bourke and Cath Meager
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A Bridget Burke dau of John Bourke and Bridget Hennesay marries in 1882 in Wisconsin
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XRLQ-2MX
ETA 1 7/8/22
then there is this birth record from Jersey City from 1900 for Ellen Burk with father John Burk born Ireland 1868 and mother Bridget Hennesey born Ireland 1868
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FCYP-GL8
This marriage for the parents
John Burke
New Jersey Marriages, 1678-1985
Name: John Burke
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date:11 Oct 1891
Event Place: Jersey City, Hudson, New Jersey, United States
St Michael, Jersey City, Hudson, New Jersey, United States
Father's Name: Patrick
Mother's Name: Mary Cahill
Spouse's Name: Bridget Hennessy
Spouse's Father's Name: Patrick
Spouse's Mother's Name: Bridget Scanlon
Now one of the children of John Welch/Walsh and his Bridget Hennessy married a Scanlan/lon.
ETA 2 Don't think this Bridget H is connected, she was born in Kilkee* Co Clare on 9/2/1864.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FRWT-FFH
*Kilrush on other records.
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Now looking at the National Censuses for Ireland
1901
There is an(other) Timothy Hennessy living at Lisvarrinane, aged 74, widower and living with his widowed sister Hanora Berrigan 77. Timothy signs the return with his name and it looks as though the enumerator has written 'Sen' beside it.
These two born c 1827 & 1824.
Honora Hennessy, daughter of Patrick Hennessy marries Michael Bergin on 4/2/1864. RC Chapel at Clonbeg
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11602/8270284.pdf
She dies in 1903 at Lisvarrinane and death is reported by James Hennessy, her nephew.
The Hennessy family we have been looking at in Lisvarrinane has been Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
It looks as though there may have been other Hennessy families there, well at least one,
and that is Patrick and the children I have found so far
Timothy https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/38318481/timothy-hennessy
Hanora Hennessy Berigan/Bergin
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Now looking at the National Censuses for Ireland
1901
There is an(other) Timothy Hennessy living at Lisvarrinane, aged 74, widower and living with his widowed sister Hanora Berrigan 77. Timothy signs the return with his name and it looks as though the enumerator has written 'Sen' beside it.
These two born c 1827 & 1824.
The Hennessy family we have been looking at in Lisvarrinane has been Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
It looks as though there may have been other Hennessy families there, well at least one,
and that is Patrick and the children I have found so far
Timothy https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/38318481/timothy-henness
There were 3 Hennessy households in Lisvarrinane on 1901 census, 2 of them headed by a Timothy, so that's why the elder Timothy was noted "Sen" for Senior. The younger Timothy was with Ellen, his wife. Head of the other household was Laurence.
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Clonbeg/Lisvarrinane/
Both Timothy Hennessy died before 1911 census. Wills reply #133.
The younger Timothy died 1909.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/128715676/timothy-hennessy
According to information there, he was son of Timothy (1810-92) & Alice Downey and grandson of Thomas Hennessy & Bridget Cleary.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/128716827/timothy-hennessy
Alice and 4 of her children emigrated to Georgia.
1911 census for Lisvarrinane
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Clonbeg/Lisvarrinane/
3 Hennessy households.
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Something I had not appreciated until now while looking for the books with the records in is that Bansha is next door to Galbally and Aherlow.
Map on National Libraries Ireland website
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0264
The county boundary goes through Galbally & Aherlow parish.
Map is interactive. Can see registers for other parishes by clicking on a parish name.
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Thanks for the work MS.
I am still keen to follow up the Burke/Hennessy children Richard born 1844 and Patrick born 1850. They were baptised in Bansha to parents John Burke and Bridgit Hennessy. There may be a daughter Bridgit who married in Wisconsin in 1882 though this seems late if she was a sibling born around 1840/1850.
Suffice to say not much luck so far finding them or their parents later on.
I will do a little bit more searching but the weather here, after some days of wind and rain is fine and I want to be out and about.
Some info from Deb or Lillibelle re the DNA results they have got on John's family and the tree that has a Bridget Burk mentioned would be good.....appreciate the tech problems.
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Thanks for the work MS.
I am still keen to follow up the Burke/Hennessy children Richard born 1844 and Patrick born 1850. They were baptised in Bansha to parents John Burke and Bridget Hennessy.
.......
Here is a FS link to some children of John Bourke/Burk/Burke and his wife Bridget Hennessy. All from parish registers of Bansha and Kilmoyler, County Tipperary, Ireland
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rqs/
Basically we have
Johanna bapt 14/12/1839 sps Hugh Bourke & Ellen Murphy
Richard bapt 12/12 1844 sps John Ryan & Mary Collins
Patrick bapt 11/3/1850 sps John Bourke & Cath Meagher
Bridget bapt 31/12/1852 sps Nil & Bridget Doherty
John bapt 1/7/1855 sps James Connors and Mary Connors
So timing is out a little if this Bridget is the one later married to John Walsh/Welch as I think Edward Welch is born Aug 1855. But we are not sure of this as we have not found a record of his birth in Ireland, NY or Iowa yet.
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I have been trying to figure out how to send you the records that I have found. Spent today searching for more info. I think I have John and Bridget, but then also realized that the dates for the families are all over from 1830's to 1860's, and that just isn't possible. I took screenshots. Is there any way to send those to you?
I found a marriage, and several baptism records. The DNA really did not take me any further back than the generations of the Welch family in Iowa. They are all my cousins and people that I know, or.can trace back to someone I know.
Thanks again,Lilli
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I have been trying to figure out how to send you the records that I have found. Spent today searching for more info. I think I have John and Bridget, but then also realized that the dates for the families are all over from 1830's to 1860's, and that just isn't possible. I took screenshots. Is there any way to send those to you?
I found a marriage, and several baptism records. The DNA really did not take me any further back than the generations of the Welch family in Iowa. They are all my cousins and people that I know, or.can trace back to someone I know.
Thanks again,Lilli
It is possible to attach them to a post here. That is preferable or else describe where the document is from so we can search ourselves ie provide a link.
Or if that is not possible then describe what is stated on the document.
What did the DNA have for the family of Bridget back in Ireland? Were there any links? You will see that the possibly the Bridget from the Cleary Hennessy family married a Dwyer and may have stayed in Ireland. So any tips from the Hennessy side of things would be useful too.
A couple of links to show how to add attachments
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
https://www.rootschat.com/help/posting.php#add_attach
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Hello All. I am Deb's cousin, Lilli. I am also interested in finding John and Bridget. The answer to one question is that our DNA did link us to Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
One other interesting story in this is that spoken family lore is that John Welch was said to have been from Maryborough, Queens County. There was also a word in there that looked like "Ballynorman" but recently I am wondering if it could be Ballyporeen..?
Welcome Lilli.
Thanks for that information.
It explains why Deb posted a page of handwritten transcriptions of Walsh baptisms in 1826 & 1827 from a Maryborough register. See reply 32 by dwelch (Deb) and my response in reply 35. I think they are on page 3 of the thread.
Link to the page for Maryborough R.C. parish in National page of Catholic Registers collection online:
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0714
Variant form of parish name Portlaoise. A map shows location of Maryborough parish and outlines of other parishes in the county and outlines of other counties. You can zoom in & out of the map. County Laois is next to County Tipperary. Tipperary is a large county in area and the only one in Ireland which was divided into Ridings (divisions of a county for local purposes).
Baptism and marriage registers for Maryborough date from May and April 1826 respectively. If John was born in Maryborough parish before May 1826 there won't be a record of his baptism. However, if he had younger siblings born there, they may be in the register.
Baptism and marriage registers for date from May and April 1826 respectively. If John was born in Maryborough parish before May 1826 there won't be a record of his baptism.[/center]However, if he had younger siblings born there, they may be in the register.
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I'm still trying. I was looking at the Ireland, Catholic Pari a h Registers. National Library of Ireland. Page 121 of 185 shows January 4, 1841 baptism .
Portalaise, Maryborough
Same link shows page 136 of 185, January2, 1843 Catherine baptism, daughter of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy.. Can anyone read that location?
Again, same link shows p 151 of 185. March 2, 1845 Mary, daughter of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy
Again, p.161 of 185 shows October 11, 1846 baptism for John of John Welch/Bridget Hennessy.
If anyone sees anything here, please let me know. I'm still trying to learn. Thanks, Lilli
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I'm still trying. I was looking at the Ireland, Catholic Pari a h Registers. National Library of Ireland. Page 121 of 185 shows January 4, 1841 baptism .
Portalaise, Maryborough
Same link shows page 136 of 185, January2, 1843 Catherine baptism, daughter of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy.. Can anyone read that location?
Again, same link shows p 151 of 185. March 2, 1845 Mary, daughter of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy
Again, p.161 of 185 shows October 11, 1846 baptism for John of John Welch/Bridget Hennessy.
If anyone sees anything here, please let me know. I'm still trying to learn. Thanks, Lilli
I have had a quick look but the page numbers are confusing me. I really want to help as I think these may lead to Bridget's parents etc.....as while they may be from the same place as the Thomas/Bridget Hennessy ancestors she may be from a different family.
Do you have any idea when Bridget was born? if the dates from the 1860 are to be believed then these births at Maryborough would make her very young at marriage
Are you looking on this site?
https://registers.nli.ie/
from these registers
Maryborough | Microfilm 04201 / 08
On 31/1/1841 there is a Joseph of John Walsh and Marianne (?) Smyth
The first January entry I can see is
Jeremiah Delany on 3/1/1841
What is the link that you are using please?
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I have had a quick look but the page numbers are confusing me.
Do you have any idea when Bridget was born? if the dates from the 1860 are to be believed then these births at Maryborough would make her very young at marriage
Are you looking on this site?
https://registers.nli.ie/
from these registers
Maryborough | Microfilm 04201 / 08
What is the link that you are using please?
I couldn't find baptisms of children to John Walsh & Bridget Hennessy on those dates either in the Maryborough registers on NLI website.
Maryborough registers https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0714
Microfilm 04201/08
I scrolled back & forth a bit in case there was more than 1 run of dates.
The next register on the website Microfilm 04201/09 , baptisms 1845- is mainly an index, arranged in alphabetical order by initial letter of surname of child, then by year. It also contains some transcriptions. Pages for W don't have any entries which match the baptisms noted by Lilli.
There may be more than 1 run of baptisms. Click on more information option at foot of page.
I noticed baptism of twins John & Dan?, parents Mick Hennessy & Mary Walsh, in 1846.
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Check out this record I found on the Ancestry mobile app
https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/29853012?h=871b89
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Bridget was 30 years old in the 1860 Federal census. Living in Greely, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa with husband John Welch and 3 children.
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Check out this record I found on the Ancestry mobile app
https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/29853012?h=871b89
2nd March 1845 Mary. Parents John Walsh & Bridget Hennessy. Sponsors Patrick Hennessy, Ellen Hannan.
Residence Bally...dane
The same residence is on opposite page. 17th Feb. Margaret Hennessy, father Thomas. Ballysundane? (I think it goes with that baptism; lines are at an angle so it's unclear which baptism matches a residence.
Check out also residence Ballyshonan? for Ellen Connell 16th March. (I'm still trying to think of places which might look/sound like Ballynorman.
Which register does the extract come from?
RootsChat has a handwriting deciphering board for hard to read writing.
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Alphabetical list of townlands in County Laois.
https://www.townlands.ie/laois/
RC parish and townland database
https://www.swilson.info/rcparishlink.php
Queens County; Kildare & Leighlin Diocese; Maryborough parish
Linked civil parishes:
Borris
Dysartenos
Kilcomanbane
Kilteale
Straboe
I don't see a townland in any of those civil parishes which resembles Bally...dane.
Griffiths' Valuation
I looked for Thomas Hennessy in the county. 2 results. (There's no knowing if the Thomas Hennessy whose child was baptised in 1845 was still around.) There was a Thomas Hennessy in Borris civil parish, Mountmellick Union. (Maryborough was in Mountmellick Union). A list of townlands and streets in the Union is at the front of the list of valuations. They are in alphabetical order within each civil parish. Can also flick through the records to see place names. Nothing which resembles Bally...dane. no streets in Maryborough town like it either.
A suggestion - Ballyfin Demesne if the placename was abbreviated?
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Bridget was 30 years old in the 1860 Federal census. Living in Greely, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa with husband John Welch and 3 children.
Has a baptism been found for Bridget Hennessy, daughter of Thomas Hennessy of Lisvarrinane?
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Is Ballyshurdane a possibility?
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Bridget was 30 years old in the 1860 Federal census. Living in Greely, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa with husband John Welch and 3 children.
So if this age is correct then a Bridget having children at age 11 -13 in Ireland may not be her! Though could be a relation.
Very sad that the records are on Anc**try. Put a large number of people out of contention for being able to help. I will have a look at the cut-down library copy I am able to access from home however and see what I can find.
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Bridget was 30 years old in the 1860 Federal census. Living in Greely, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa with husband John Welch and 3 children.
Has a baptism been found for Bridget Hennessy, daughter of Thomas Hennessy of Lisvarrinane?
Just to clarify is this the Bridget with the mother Bridget Cleary? The one who may have married Jeremiah Dwyer?
I am wondering if Thomas had a children out of marriage but this won't work if the DNA goes back to Thomas AND Bridget.
I will have a look for a Bridget Hennessy born c 1830.
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Bridget was 30 years old in the 1860 Federal census. Living in Greely, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa with husband John Welch and 3 children.
Has a baptism been found for Bridget Hennessy, daughter of Thomas Hennessy of Lisvarrinane?
Just to clarify is this the Bridget with the mother Bridget Cleary? The one who may have married Jeremiah Dwyer?
Yes. I thought that if we knew when she was baptised, it would help us to estimate when she might have married and had children.
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Bridget was 30 years old in the 1860 Federal census. Living in Greely, Elk Township, Delaware County, Iowa with husband John Welch and 3 children.
So if this age is correct then a Bridget having children at age 11 -13 in Ireland may not be her! Though could be a relation.
Very sad that the records are on Anc**try. Put a large number of people out of contention for being able to help. I will have a look at the cut-down library copy I am able to access from home however and see what I can find.
I am very willing to help and I can easily access records. I must admit, I temporarily gave up searching in the U.S. as I believe we had a few questions for lillibelle57/Deb that weren’t necessarily being answered. My apologies if I am incorrect and our questions were answered. (I don’t have the time right now to plow through the pages - maybe I can do so later tonight.)
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I am interested in Michael Welch, Elk, Delaware County 1860. He seems to be almost too good to not be John 's brother. I had seen him, but didn't get to follow up…
In the last year, I have begun to wonder if perhaps John Welch had a criminal past, or was adopted. Perhaps he isn't who he said he was? Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family. Debbie, another cousin and I have searched in vain for 30+ years. I am hoping someone here can make it happen. Perhaps that will be through Michael…
…You said “Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family.” May I ask exactly what that means, please? You don’t have any matches with Welch descendants or you have very few? Your reply could steer us in the right direction.
I have been trying to figure out how to send you the records that I have found. Spent today searching for more info. I think I have John and Bridget, but then also realized that the dates for the families are all over from 1830's to 1860's, and that just isn't possible. I took screenshots. Is there any way to send those to you?
I found a marriage, and several baptism records. The DNA really did not take me any further back than the generations of the Welch family in Iowa. They are all my cousins and people that I know, or.can trace back to someone I know.
Thanks again,Lilli
I was curious, so I looked for the last question I had for lillibelle57. Is there any proof that the DNA is from the Welch side and not the Hennesy side? I think someone also asked how strong the matches were (sorry cannot think of the correct terminology right now) for Welch/Hennesy but if they in fact did ask, maybe that has already been answered?
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Posted in error.
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I am interested in Michael Welch, Elk, Delaware County 1860. He seems to be almost too good to not be John 's brother. I had seen him, but didn't get to follow up…
In the last year, I have begun to wonder if perhaps John Welch had a criminal past, or was adopted. Perhaps he isn't who he said he was? Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family. Debbie, another cousin and I have searched in vain for 30+ years. I am hoping someone here can make it happen. Perhaps that will be through Michael…
…You said “Our DNA doesn't show much on the Welch side of the family.” May I ask exactly what that means, please? You don’t have any matches with Welch descendants or you have very few? Your reply could steer us in the right direction.
I have been trying to figure out how to send you the records that I have found. Spent today searching for more info. I think I have John and Bridget, but then also realized that the dates for the families are all over from 1830's to 1860's, and that just isn't possible. I took screenshots. Is there any way to send those to you?
I found a marriage, and several baptism records. The DNA really did not take me any further back than the generations of the Welch family in Iowa. They are all my cousins and people that I know, or.can trace back to someone I know.
Thanks again,Lilli
I was curious, so I looked for the last question I had for lillibelle57. Is there any proof that the DNA is from the Welch side and not the Hennesy side? I think someone also asked how strong the matches were (sorry cannot think of the correct terminology right now) for Welch/Hennesy but if they in fact did ask, maybe that has already been answered?
No no info really given on DNA matches from either side. I think they have said the Hennessy ones match to Thomas & Bridget Cleary Hennessy but no info other than than that. No info about Welch/Walsh matches. We did find a lots of info about a Bridget Hennessy who seemed to be from the family of Thomas & Bridget Cleary Hennessy but have not looked for a baptism for this Bridget yet. She married a Jeremiah Dwyer may be a different one to the Bridget Hennessy who was in Iowa US.
I thought I would help again after Lillibelle gave some new baptisms for children but unfortunately the refs are to A/try dBs rather than the freely available NLI parish registers. The children are born 1841-1846 and so not really in contention for the Iowa Bridget Hennessy born c 1830 according to the 1860 census. (unless she has was born earlier, but put a later date so as not to be older than her spouse.
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It is the Bridget Hennessy from this this marriage to Jeremiah Dwyer that we are trying to find the baptism for
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632715#page/212/mode/1up
21/2/1846 at the parish church Galbally and Aherlow.
The witnesses were Thomas Hennessy and Thady Hennessy poss father and brother of this Bridget Hennessy.
This Bridget and Jeremiah subsequently moved to Bansha.
Lillibelle has found a series of baptisms from 1841-1846. Not sure which parish.
We will need to find the baptism/marriage for this couple as well - Hennessy & Walsh/Welch
The Bridget from Iowa has these as birth dates/ages in the 3 censuses
1860 born 1830 age 30
1870 born in 1827 so 43
1880 born 1832 so 48
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Here is the link to Bridget Cleary Hennessy's death. To state the obvious neither the Bridget who married Jeremiah Dwyer nor Brdiget Hennessy/Welch could not have been born after July 1841.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVKJ-13YV
This Bridget Hennessy was the daughter of Timothy/Thady Hennessy who was the son of Thomas and Bridget Cleary Hennessy.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01rr3/
A way back Deb had some second forenames to the children of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy. From memory (?) one of them was Martin.
There is an interesting birth to a Martin Hennessy and Bidy Brien in Jul 1829
There is a Kilpatrick in Co Tipperary
A link showing Bridget Walsh Hennessy marr to Martin Hennessy and with a child Thomas
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5B1-69M
Dwyer births again . not sure I recorded all of these earlier.
Michael Dwyer from Bansha born 1854
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F5B1-69M
James Dwyer born 1853
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6D22-2DJL
Thomas Dwyer born1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6628-BW3G
jerome Dwyer born 1859
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6DT9-J8MK
John Dwyer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:66KR-F8T6
Toby born 1846
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FFR-PRBB
Kate born 1856
We have covered Bridget Hennessy married to Dwyer & Bridget Hennessy married to Burke but not this Bridget married to a Carew at Anacarty & Donohue Co Tipp with Patrick born 1849
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0238
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FL3-4HL8
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I have never seen a baptism record for Bridget or for John. Thanks, Lilli
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I have never seen a baptism record for Bridget
The only Bridget Hennessy baptisms I found in Galbaly & Aherlow parish were April 1823 & Feb.1826. Neither father was Thomas.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0264
Microfilm 02499/03 baptisms 1810-June 1828
Microfilm 02499/04 baptisms Dec. 1828-1872
So there are no baptisms recorded July-Nov. 1828.
A note on the "Irish Ancestors" page which lists all known registers for the parish says July 1820-June 1821 are missing.
I looked for baptisms of other children of Thomas Hennessy & Bridget Cleary. Found 4 in Galbally register.
Timothy 13th May 1810
Arthur 17th April 1814
John May 1816*
Eliza 9th July 1822
*2 babies named John with father Thomas Hennessy were baptised in Galbally parish in April 1816. Mother of the first was Margaret Connery.
I hoped that making a list of baptisms of children of Thomas & Bridget (Cleary) Hennessy in chronological order might help to calculate a timeframe during which Bridget was likely born. That didn't work because: I found baptisms for only 4 of the 10 children;
The order of baptisms doesn't correspond with the order of the list of children on Thomas Hennessy's biography on Find a Grave. That has sons then daughters.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852022/thomas-hennessy
Bridget Cleary was born "in or near Cahir" according to her bio on "Find a Grave". It's possible that some of her children may have been born while she was visiting/staying with her own people.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45852276/bridget-hennessy
Several men named Thomas Hennessy had children baptised in Galbally parish 1810-1830s. Wives Margaret Connery, Eliza Bealy, Mary Anne Howe, Mary Hennessy, Anne Quirk.
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Has anyone ever heard of "THE FORMITABLE GENEAOLOGIST"? She has a partner who does DNA findings. I ran across her on Facebook. I told her about John. She said she could find anybody in 15 minutes and has solved all her cases.
I challenged her to find John. So, as it turns out, he is the one and only case she could not solve.
I asked her to come here, to RootsChat and take a look at all our pages of information.
She did and this is what she had to say:
"Just read through this and I see they're finding the same things that I did, but that weren't conclusive as being the right family. Like with Michael Welch in Delaware County, There was no link to John. I'm just not seeing any new leads that I hadn't already covered in US and Irish records."
So, I know that is no reason to give up, but if a professional and her DNA expert can't find John, then I don't think anyone can.
Unless someone who charges $3000 an hr, to start, tries to search, and I certainly can't afford that!
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Welcome back Deb.
So an expert has admitted defeat.
There may be no records relating to John prior to to his life in Iowa.
Have you considered John Walsh baptised in Abbeyleix & Ballyroan parish, 4th August 1824, parents Edward & Dibby? Another Edward Walsh (Ned) had a child Jean (?) baptised there on 30th July. They caught my eye, thinking that if your ancestor Edward was John's eldest son, John's father might have been Edward. Unfortunately Edward Walsh wasn't an uncommon name. https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634370#page/5/mode/1up
Microfilm 04199/01 Baptisms 6th June 1824-23rg August 1830. The year 1824 is in 2 registers.
Abbeyleix & Ballyroan parish is adjacent to Maryborough.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0685
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How can we be sure which John is mine without DNA? I did have two possible matches IN Ireland and I messaged them. Neither have replied back. All I can do is try again.
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How can we be sure which John is mine without DNA? I did have two possible matches IN Ireland and I messaged them. Neither have replied back. All I can do is try again.
Before we had DNA we managed to work out who were ours with top notch researching and examination of records. We worked on the balance of probabilities.
I suggest that until more of the family of John, who ever they are and where ever they are from are DNA tested then we can only search and be satisfied with the way we did it before DNA.
If you want us to be able to help you will need to give us more information on what exactly the DNA is telling you. Who are the families you have found in Ireland? Have you separately traced them back ie done their family trees for them?
Looking back also we have not managed yet to track your Bridget back to the family that you believe she belongs to.
Have you been in contact or searched for trees of any present day families connected with the children of Thomas Hennessy and Bridget Cleary Hennessy
There were some references that Lillibelle had found that I am not sure have been examined. They were Anc$$try records that i could not cross reference to the NLI records.
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https://www.ancestry.com/dna/origins/6D9FC415-4A44-4D50-9F2B-C53EA88F2067/details?branch=US_NSC_19th_Ghost_IA_NE_ND_SD&time=1800
Can you get to this link? I have not paid Ancestry for a month of nothing and they let me see it!
If you can't get it open I will explain where they think John might be!
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Link gives an Error message.
Also with it being a USA site, Roots Chatters in say the UK would need a Worldwide subscription to view .com records, our UK is ancestry.co.uk and has lower subs
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Who are the families you have found in Ireland? Have you separately traced them back ie done their family trees for them?
That's an important point. Are you confident that their trees are 100% accurate?
I think that the only specific piece of information about John is that he was from Maryborough or somewhere near. The place "Ballynorman" may have been his townland or a village.
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I was on Ancestry last night digging around under DNA. It gave John's approximate location between Loughrea (Co Galway) and Banagher (Co. Offlay). It did not give an exact location. Bridget was in the same area.
I still haven't paid Ancestry but they are letting me see certain things. 99% was from my mothers side.
All of my messages are useless in regards to the Welch side.
Gedmatch did not used to have so many names hidden, but they do now. And most of the close matches are relatives here in the states.
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I'm still trying. I was looking at the Ireland, Catholic Pari a h Registers. National Library of Ireland. Page 121 of 185 shows January 4, 1841 baptism .
Portalaise, Maryborough
Same link shows page 136 of 185, January2, 1843 Catherine baptism, daughter of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy.. Can anyone read that location?
Again, same link shows p 151 of 185. March 2, 1845 Mary, daughter of John Welch and Bridget Hennessy
Again, p.161 of 185 shows October 11, 1846 baptism for John of John Welch/Bridget Hennessy.
Check out this record I found on the Ancestry mobile app
https://www.ancestry.com/sharing/29853012?h=871b89
The image showing baptisms Feb-March 1845 isn't from Marybprough. It's from Kildorrery parish, County Cork, Cloyne R.C. diocese. It's next to Limerick border.
Kildorrery R.C. parish https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0065
Microfilm 04994/06
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634240#page/151/mode/1up
Baptism 2nd March 1845 Mary of John Walsh & Bridget Hennessy, Bally_undane
Sponsors Patrick Hennessy, Ellen Hannan
Thanks to heywood for locating correct register.
Added. All 4 Walsh baptisms posted by Lilli were in Kildorrery parish.
6th January 1841 James. Sponsors Pat Murphy, Mary Coughlan
2nd January 1843 Catherine. Sponsors James Walsh, Mary Duane
11th October 1846 John. Sponsors Robert & Ellen Walsh
Parents John Walsh & Bridget Hennessy. Residence Ballysurdane?
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"FAMILY SEARCH" is free. They may want you to just sign up and make a password.
This looks right for Bridget:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LWY8-78F
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You will have to scroll down to get the real picture!
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It's from Kildorrery parish, County Cork, Cloyne R.C. diocese. It's next to Limerick border.
Kildorrery R.C. parish https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0065
Microfilm 04994/06
Added. All 4 Walsh baptisms posted by Lilli were in Kildorrery parish.
6th January 1841 James. Sponsors Pat Murphy, Mary Coughlan
2nd January 1843 Catherine. Sponsors James Walsh, Mary Duane
11th October 1846 John. Sponsors Robert & Ellen Walsh
Parents John Walsh & Bridget Hennessy. Residence Ballysurdane?
Ballyshurdane is in Templemolaga civil parish. (Link to "Irish Ancestors" at foot of parish page then click "placenames connected with this parish". Short list of civil parishes. Check each in turn for townlands.)
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"FAMILY SEARCH" is free. They may want you to just sign up and make a password.
This looks right for Bridget:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LWY8-78F
Do you mean Bridget Burke Hennessy 1830-1894? Shanreagh followed a Hennessy-Burke connection, replies 135-7.
Some mistakes in that Timothy Hennessy profile are easy to spot:
Timothy Hennessy 1826-1888 (born Tipperary, died Illinois.) The one born in 1826 was too young to be married and starting a family by 1838. Timothy born 1810 was more likely to have been the man who married Alice and the father of Bridget (1838). More info my replies 165 & 139.
Laurence 1862-1937 is down among children of Thomas Hennessy & Bridget Cleary. Either his dates are wrong or he's from a different generation. He was born 21 years after his mother's death. ???
Considering those errors, I'd be cautious regarding information about Bridget Burke Hennessy on that tree.
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Ancestry now has a world map of my DNA matches. There are none in Ireland now. But there are five in Great Britain. Very distant. I messaged a 'Stephen Walsh' in Britain, but I see I had written to him before and he replied. However he has deleted his replies.
I have messaged him again!
Yes, that Hennessy bunch is so confusing. That too is a mess!
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PS to my reply 178.
Laurence 1862-1937 is down among children of Thomas Hennessy & Bridget Cleary. Either his dates are wrong or he's from a different generation. He was born 21 years after his mother's death. ???
Laurence born 1862, baptised September in Galbally parish was son of Laurence & Catherine. His parish is wrong on Family Search.
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The Hennessy family is turning out to be quite a problem. Dates and people! Jen from "The Formidable Genealogist & DNA Research" had told me quite some time ago that she thought I had the wrong Hennessy family in my tree! I have no doubt now.
I did receive a reply from Stephen Walsh in Great Britain today! I had mentioned his replies were gone from our messaging. And that he must have deleted them! That's all I said! But his entire reply was about NOT deleting messages! LOL! He is going to do some looking into his research and see what he can come up with!
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Hi
For some fresh cousin matches Ancestry DNA raw data can also be uploaded to FTDNA, MyHeritage & LivingDNA - there is a unlock fee for each but it is usually cheaper than buying a brand new test. Or wait for a time when there is a sale on. 23andme requires a buying a brand new test.
https://dna-explained.com/2022/08/17/how-many-matches-at-each-dna-testing-vendor/
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Thanks for the information. I have not tried LivingDNA. Will do! Thanks
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While Ancestry told me I had no matches in Ireland, My Heritage came up with 263 very minor DNA matches! Several were Walsh. I didn't get a hit on Hennessy though. And even more matches in the United Kingdom then anywhere except the United States!
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And even more matches in the United Kingdom then anywhere except the United States!
Not surprising, considering the number of Irish people who settled in Britain. My GF's family has far more descendents and relatives in 1 English county than in Ireland; some of those who stayed in Ireland either didn't marry or married late in life and didn't have children.
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While Ancestry told me I had no matches in Ireland, My Heritage came up with 263 very minor DNA matches! Several were Walsh. I didn't get a hit on Hennessy though. And even more matches in the United Kingdom then anywhere except the United States!
Unlike MyHeritage which records people's country of residence as default, Ancestry does not, and only very few people actually list their location. So Ancestry does not really have the ability to find matches in Ireland the way MyHeritage does. You just have to look for Ireland or Irish counties in the place search, or look for Irish surnames in the name or name in tree searches which you think you might have a connection to.
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In my USA matches, I have people at a top level who are not actually related to me! I will be doing quite a lot of emailing this weekend.
We ARE beginning to think Michael Welch married Margaret Glynn and may have even lived next to John in Delaware Co. IA. I think since he was born in 1811, he was John's brother. Lillian thinks he could be his father! There is a picture of the man on Ancestry now, but the poster is not even sure who exactly it is.
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The Hennessy family is turning out to be quite a problem. Dates and people! Jen from "The Formidable Genealogist & DNA Research" had told me quite some time ago that she thought I had the wrong Hennessy family in my tree! I have no doubt now.
So do you now think that Bridget Hennessy, daughter of Thomas Hennessy & Bridget Cleary of Lisvernane, County Tipperary was not your ancestor?
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I have a baptism record for Bridget, Aug 5th 1831, Cork, Ballyhea, Diocese Cloyne. Parents are Thomas and Bridget. And of course Bridget's parents death records for Co. Tipperary. Could the baptism record be an entirely different family? We always thought Bridget was born in Tipperary.
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I have a baptism record for Bridget, Aug 5th 1831, Cork, Ballyhea, Diocese Cloyne. Parents are Thomas and Bridget. And of course Bridget's parents death records for Co. Tipperary. Could the baptism record be an entirely different family? We always thought Bridget was born in Tipperary.
Some Catholic parish records do not exist until the 1850s and 1860s. Have you looked on Rootsireland, Ancestry, findmypast and familysearch?
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Yes I believe I found it on Ancestry.
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I have a baptism record for Bridget, Aug 5th 1831, Cork, Ballyhea, Diocese Cloyne. Parents are Thomas and Bridget. And of course Bridget's parents death records for Co. Tipperary. Could the baptism record be an entirely different family? We always thought Bridget was born in Tipperary.
Ballyhea R.C. parish, Diocese of Cloyne, County Cork
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0014
You can see the location on the inset map. Ballyhea is the pink bit. Near border of County Limerick.
Hennessy surname distribution in mid 19th century Ireland
https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=HENNESSY
County Cork had the highest number of Hennessy households, 310, at least 50% more than in the next highest, Tipperary.
Bridget was one of the most popular names in Ireland. Thomas & Bridget are common pairings. It may be coincidence.
I know which rural parish my family were from. Even so, I got confused with 3 married couples called Thomas & Bridget.
Mother of that Bridget Hennessy was Bridget Murphy.