RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Shiny1 on Friday 05 August 22 11:08 BST (UK)
-
Hi All,
I've just discovered my Great Great Uncle, William Isaac Carruthers (subject of this thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=804023.0) died in the Ministry of Pensions Hospital in Dunston on the 1st of Dec 1938.
He lived in Elswick very close to the cemetery there so I presumed that is where he would have been buried. I have used the links and tricks Ticketty Boo shared (thanks Boo) but can't see him listed in the Con or Uncon registers.
I haven't come across the hospital before and was wondering if anyone knows if they had a specific burial ground they used for exsoldiers who died there?
Thanks a lot,
Michael
-
Dunston Hill Hospital, according to this page:
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=1261
Was originally established as a War Pensioner Hospital at Castle Leazes, Newcastle. In 1928 it was moved to Dunston Hill. Controlled by the Ministry of Pensions until 1953 when it passed to the control of the Ministry of Health.
Can't find anything to say it had its own burial ground, but with two big civil cemeteries in Gateshead I suspect if he was buried in the local area it would be in one of those - but he's not showing in their registers. Nor is he in the name index for Elswick.
Newcastle Libraries have the local papers on microfilm , Newcastle Evening Chronicle not online for this date either go and check them to see if there is a death notice which may tell you the burial place
OR use the enquiry form, from the link on this page: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=1261
Give them the details and ask if they will check the newspapers for you, give them the name and date of death and usually any notice will be within a week of that.
Do bear in mind that West Road Crematorium was in operation in 1938 and though the majority still chose burial its possible he was cremated.
Boo
-
Hi Boo,
Thanks for the help, this family is proving really elusive, they are not on the voters register at the address he supposedly lived at, they just don't want to be found.
I'll try Newcastle Library and see if they have an announcement but if they stay as well hidden I'm guessing not.
Michael
-
There is an In Memoriam notice for him in 1939 - so that is a good sign that there may well have been a death notice.
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 1 Dec 1939. page 2 col 2
In Memoriam
CARRUTHERS (late Meldon Street) - Loving memories of William, died December 1st 1938
Only those who have loved can tell
The pain we feel at not saying farewell
-- Always remembered by his wife Jennie and his dear daughters Vera and Lilian
Regarding the electoral registers, with no clues as to how long William was hospitalised, there's a possibilty that Meldon St. was his last residential address but if he'd been in hospital long term then Mary Jane/Jennie and the children may have moved to a smaller, cheaper place or moved in with relatives as money would be very tight?
Boo
-
Thanks a lot, that's a great help.
I hadn't thought of the long term hospital scenario, that would fit.
Michael
-
Thanks a lot, that's a great help.
I hadn't thought of the long term hospital scenario, that would fit.
Michael
Well its not writ in stone, just a possibility.
I still like baby steps :-) let us know if you manage to find a death notice and maybe we can take it from there.
I know that the Library has some burial registers on microfilm, so if you find a death notice and it mentions a cemetery, check while you are there to see if they have that one.
(from experience the Library struggle to deal with remote enquiries regarding cemetery registers, though they may now have got the hang of it).
Boo
-
Evening Chronicle - Saturday December 3rd 1938
'CARRUTHERS.- At Dunston Hill Hospital, on December 1st, aged 45 years, William Isaac, son of James and Mary Ann Carruthers, late of Meldon Street. Interment at St Nicholas Cemetery, Monday, at 2.30 p.m.; cortege leaving the residence of his sister, 244 Wingrove Avenue, 2.15 p.m. Friends please accept this (the only) intimation.'
At St Nicholas Cemetery, Fenham he is buried in Section W plot 199
Buried on 5 Dec 1938. There is a 'p.' next to date and a number above date 1114 which might suggest this was a purchased plot. Burial cost was only 5/ though so this might not be certain.
I have put this on Find A Grave but would be happy to transfer memorial to you if you wish.
-
Thank you so much River Tyne Lass, that is brilliant.
Do you happen to know if there is a map for this cemetery in the library? I'd love to go up and find his grave.
Thank you again,
Michael
-
Section Map
http://www.margaret-hall-genealogy.com/page8.htm
Boo
-
You are welcome. Happy to help out.
The map that Boo has kindly added the link for shows that Section W appears to a smaller section at the back.
Not everyone in the burial register had a 'P' by the date so I think it might possibly be he is in a purchased grave.
Do let us know how you get on if you can find it when time permits. :)
P.S. I have now transferred memorial to you.
-
Thank you both so much for the help. I've printed the map and am ready to get looking now a soon as work permits.
I'll keep you posted.
Michael
-
I've been to the cemetery this morning, it's not too big and thanks to the map with the sections marked on I had quite a small area to search.
I used a combination of tricks to look for him, I superimposed the map with the sections onto an image from Google maps satellite view, that means I could pin point a couple of trees which marked the section boundary.
By searching the military headstones I found in the cemetery on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission's database I managed to get their plot numbers, that meant between the map and the war graves I could narrow my search down to quite a small area.
Unfortunately not a single headstone remains in that small area so I have to assume William's grave is unmarked. I will try to contact the Newcastle registrars and see if they can share a map with plot numbers on or an record from his burial but I am 99.9% sure I can narrow the plot down to almost 20 or 30 meters square and there just isn't anything there, either in that bit or the rest of that section.
Not a completely wasted trip though, I found a CWGC headstone I had a strong interest in and as I am a CWGC Eyes On, Hands On volunteer I gave that a quick clean. I also managed to go from the cemetery to my great grandparents old home which is nearby and I hadn't seen before. From there I went to my own grandparents old home, also nearby, which brought back a lot of memories, my granddad who lived there is my avatar.
Finally I went to a church yard I have been meaning to visit for sometime to try and find another family grave which wasn't too far away. I had seen that on Find A Grave so knew there was something there to find but I also found the couple's son who I didn't know was there. I've made a note to go back and try and tidy them a bit as both are quite overgrown. I also got to see a beautiful young male deer in the church yard so that was an added bonus.
So no luck with William but definitely a worthwhile and productive morning.
Michael
-
Thanks for the update. Sorry, to hear that things didn't work out regarding finding a memorial for William. I wonder if the burial services might be able to shed more light on things such as the 'p' and number in the date area. I wonder if the grave might have been purchased with a view to getting a memorial later on but then this wasn't gotten around to? Or perhaps plot wasn't purchased? But what might the 'p' signify if so?
It's good to read about all you have achieved today though.
Quite impressed at how well you have managed to turn a negative around into a positive! :)
-
Well just to wrap this up I've just had a reply from Newcastle registrars. Sadly William's grave was always unmarked so there was never a headstone to find.
I'd also asked if his parents were buried with him which they told me they aren't. They are in that cemetery somewhere but I have been referred to my favourite TWAS to look at the registers and find where they are.
A sad ending but not something I'm completely surprised about if I'm honest. His wife and child left the area quite soon after his death and his mother died two years later so getting his headstone probably wasn't something that was looked at.
Michael
-
Tomorrow, I will be working a day shift so it might be possible that I may be able to reach Newcastle City library before their late Tuesday closing at 7 pm.
If you like, let me know what William's parents were called, what year and quarter they died and I will do my best to look up their entries in the St Nicholas burial register on microfilm at the library. (if I can make it in time)
-
Thank you very much RTL, that's very kind of you. I'll send you a PM.
Michael
-
Apologies, but I was unexpectedly called in on nightshift last night and am on way home now so I won't be able to get to the library today.
Would still be happy to do it when I am next on a day shift - whenever that might be - if you don't beat me to it.
-
Thanks very much for the offer.
Sleep well,
Michael
-
Well, I'm wide awake and library open after shopping so I have called after all :
Looks like Mary Ann Carruther of 244 Wingrove Avenue was buried Section W plot 199 Consecrated (6 ft) on 6 March 1940.
James Carruthers of 111 Wingrove Road (sic)
also buried in Section W plot 199 Consecrated on 17 Dec 1952.
-
This is strange .. burial services told you he was not buried with parents but they all seem to be in same section and plot! ???
There doesn't appear to be Graves register on microfilm here covering the dates so I can't see who else might be in with William besides his parents.
-
Hi RTL,
Thank you so much for doing that, it is really kind of you.
Yes it is very odd and doesn't make a lot of sense, I think another email might be in order. I'll keep you posted.
Michael
-
You're welcome. Off home to bed now. Not back in tonight.
Yes, I am curious about what they may say about this; they are all in same section and plot according to St Nicholas burial registers on microfilm.
Very peculiar that they told you that they are not together. ???