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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: BIMINI on Tuesday 30 August 22 10:04 BST (UK)
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I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to find out how my 2 x great grandfather, Samuel Collins, came to Australia.
From him down, no worries, but as to how he arrived continues to allude me.
I have tried to apply convict record top him, plus asking the UK naval records, the UK Jewry records, etc.
All I know is that he passed away in 1895 said to have been aged 80 and lived in Australia for about 60 years.
I may have used this site previously but, unfortunately, I cannot recall as I have updated computers and my records have become so bulky- bulky without an answer.
Regards
Geoff Collins
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What is the earliest evidence you have that Samuel COLLINS existed?
His name on a marriage record?
His name as father on a birth certificate? What / when / where do you first see Samuel COLLINS?.
Can we have something more specific than just "Australia" please.
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Thanks for a very prompt reply to my post.
I think the fact that he existed is the same as the fact that I exist.
From all of my research I find that he never officially married but for all of his 8 children , the marriage date is given as 1847 to his "wife" Mary Ann McCrumb ( formerly Chuck from her first marriage in 1847 to Charles Chuck. Her maiden name was McCrumb a child of 2 Irish convicts).
I only have a death registration which gives the details I have given unfortunately.
As for more specific as to "Australia" , I know that he died in Sydney and all of his children were born in Sydney- Woolloomooloo/ Darlinghurst area to more accurate
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Have you eliminated Samuel Collins born abt 1816 London (a Jew) who arrived on “Mangles” in 1832.
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Hello
Thank is one that I have tried numerous avenues to confirm/deny or whatever.
He is shown as being admitted to Darlinghurst Gaol but request on the fate, or anything on the reason, have not produced anything.
There is family folklore from my own family and another relative who I have never met, which says that there is Jewish blood in the line including a rabbi. This was another fact in my own DNA which shows that I have a 7% Jewish link in my heritage.
Would love if someone could give me more information on this possibility thanks Neale1961.
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A conflicting record has him arriving 1832 onboard “William”.
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Using BDM NSW I see these seven births. Is this your family?
716/1857 COLLINS Samuel J parents Samuel / Mary A @ Sydney
1539/1859 COLLINS Henry A parents Samuel / Mary A @ Sydney
1028/1862 COLLINS Ann parents Samuel / Mary A @ Sydney
6/1865 COLLINS Sydney A parents Samuel / Mary A @ Sydney
1588/1867 COLLINS Alfred A parents Samuel / Mary A @ Sydney
2710/1869 COLLINS Ernest A parents Samuel / Mary A @ Sydney
1500/1875 COLLINS Frederick Arthur Samuel / Mary Ann @ Sydney
Ancestry Anglican Parish BDM
Surrey Hills Flinders Street St Michaels born Mar 14 1857 bapt Apr 26 1857
COLLINS Samuel Joseph parents Samuel, cab owner, Mary Ann Burke Street
Woolloomooloo East Sydney St Peters born Oct 22 1869 bapt Feb 13 1870
COLLINS Ernest Albert parents Samuel, coachman, Mary Ann Stanley Lane
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What age do you see recorded for Samuel on the birth certificate of first-born child, what birthplace for Samuel, and who is the informant?
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You probably have this already - Samuel COLLINS, cabman,"intoxication and furiously driving through the streets of the city" etc in 1855.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60167166
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12977242
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Thank you all for your responses to date.
To Neale 1961- yes I have noticed that in addition to the Mangles however there is no record of a Samuel Collins on either.
To wivenhoe- yes all of the births are his and Mary Ann's children including my great grandfather Alfred Augustus..
On the birth certificate of Samuel Joesph, his age is given as 39 years and birthplace London. the informant was Mary Ann Collins ( with x mark) but the mother is noted as Mary Ann McCrumb !
To maddys52- yes I have read this plus there a couple of other recordings of a Samuel Collins apparently liking a drink.
Looking forward to any more suggestions- thanks to all
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It seems to me that COLLINS is hardly a Jewish name. But COHEN is a Jewish name, and it would be an easy change to go from Cohen to Collin.
With that in mind have you considered the following?
Samuel Cohen born 1816
Religion - Jewish
Single. Can Read and Write
Tried Old Bailey London 1834
Transported for 14 years - for stealing
Arrived Mangles 1835
TOL 1841
Conditional pardon 1843, extended to 1845
https://www.digitalpanopticon.org/life?id=obpdef1-126-18341124
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He is shown as being admitted to Darlinghurst Gaol but request on the fate, or anything on the reason, have not produced anything.
I'm assuming you mean in 1874? He was fined 10s.or 4 days in gaol for being drunk and disorderly on Crown St.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article13332044
You can see Ah CHEN and Henry SMITH either side of Samuel COLLINS on the "Description Book" for Darlinghust Gaol (on Ancestry)
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I suspect the March 1866 entry for Samuel COLLINS (who arrived on the "William") is one of those "thirty persons fined ... for various breaches of the Municipal by laws":
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60593967
You can see the others mentioned by name in this report around Samuel's name in the "Description Book" on Ancestry.
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Hi Neale1961
Wow, that certainly could answer a few questions if in fact it is him. The age certainly could fit, and although he went to Tasmania (VDL) he may have drifted up to Sydney post conditional pardon. It could also explain why he never officially married Mary Ann if he had strong Jewish beliefs and maybe it was not approved in those days. I note from a Tasmanian Gaol record that he was a baker and maybe there wasn't work for him hence taking up being a cabman/owner.
Any suggestions how I could pursue this possibility further?
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Thanks maddy s52
Yes, he does have a few recordings for the love of the drink plus sundry offences- lucky today there are not lock ups for by law breaches.
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Whilst Neale is right that COLLINS is not necessarily a Jewish name, there are a few Jewish families with the name COLLINS in London in the early 1800s. Hyman COLLINS was a picture/curiosity dealer who appears in the papers a few times. There is also this record of a circumcision in 1816 which is probably a son of this Hyman COLLINS, who lived at 31 Cockspur St, Charing Cross, definitely in 1828 according to one newspaper report.
https://synagoguescribes.com/blog/person-details/?value=20006
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Not uncommon for convicts to change their name to get away from their criminal past. He may have wanted to disguise his Jewish name for other reasons too.
I could see no records of a Samuel Cohen in Tasmania after the date of his pardon. Coming from London, he would have moved quite happily to Sydney.
I doubt he was a very skilled baker by the age of 18. He may have been working for a baker.
I am having trouble reading all the writing on the various records, but on one sheet there is a mention of a Daniel Lipman in Newington (London), also Philip - baker. I think Samuel's father was named Moses.
Edited.
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On the Newgate Prison record, Samuel Cohen is recorded as a labourer.
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There may have been a previous criminal charge in early 1834 for which Samuel was acquitted.
It is note worthy that both Samuel Cohen and Samuel Collins are recorded as being able to Read and Write. Not a common skill in those times.
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Sailed on the brig “William” on 16 Oct 1845 from Tasmania to Sydney ….
Samuel Cohen ….
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8757517/671375
ADDED: Therefore conflicting information could be explained.
Samuel arrived in the colony onboard "Mangles", and he arrived in Sydney onboard "William". So both gaol records are "correct".
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From Samuel Cohen’s convict indent, and other records, you have a very good description of him, including a tatoo of a woman on his right arm. If you can match this to a gaol / police description of Samuel Collins from Sydney, then you know he is the same fellow.
(I have run out of time at the moment to pursue this line.)
The earliest I could see information relating to Samuel Collins a Cabman in Sydney is 1855
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12977242?searchTerm=%22Samuel%20collins%22%20AND%20cabman
There is a Samuel Henry Cohen in Maitland who is constantly in the papers for insolvency, etc, BUT this is a different man.
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Good evening Neale11961
Thank you once again for your assistance and what you have covered certainly seems to place more of an idea who my Samuel Collins was - after wasting so long and not utilising this site!
I have used Ancestry to list all of the Gaol entries for Samuel Collins' including many which do not include details of arrival in the Colony but will specifically concentrate on the 2 entries for the vessels "William" and "Mangles" . I must admit that from the majority of the entries for Darlinghurst, he certainly liked a drink!
There is alo one for Parramatta Gaol which, probably fanciful thinking, fits in with the date and place that his soon to be wife, Mary Ann, came from.
As the entries do not give details of tattoos etc. should I now address my enquiry to the NSW State records?
Thank you once again, so gratefully appreciated
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Geoff, Can I ask if you have Samuel's death certificate, and if there is any information there regarding parents names or occupations?
I have looked in the NSW State Archives indexes but I cannot see anything there that might be useful or relevant to the current search.
I think you need to go through Trove articles and gaol records related to Samuel Collins with a "fine tooth comb" and record everything. Sometimes the tiniest detail can be the key to unlocking the answer.
I am still pursuing a number of things, and I will get back to you when I can offer more information.
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Hi Neale 1961
Unfortunately his death certificate does not give much information at all with both parents names and occupations noted as "unknown". His cause of death is given as "chronic bronchitis , cardiac synope" but a point which is also noted is " inquest unnecessary- JC Moore City Coroner 5/7/1895". I wonder why this would have been recorded and if there is a record of his body description i.e. tattoos etc.
I have written to NSW Records seeking their help in having a look at a couple of gaol entries to see if there are the descriptions we seek - here's hoping.
As for Trove, I have just read up to page 71 of the period between 1845 and 1892 and although there are a lot of entries for drunkenness, assault, riotios behaviour ( What a guy!!) nothing has jumped out yet which has opened anything further.
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His cause of death is given as "chronic bronchitis , cardiac synope" but a point which is also noted is " inquest unnecessary- JC Moore City Coroner 5/7/1895". I wonder why this would have been recorded and if there is a record of his body description i.e. tattoos etc.
An inquest was not needed as he probably had been ill and declining for some time, and the doctor was aware of that. So his death was not suspicious. Also his advanced age, a reason for a death that did not require an inquest.
No inquest = no description of body.
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Regarding Samuel COHEN convict to VDL 1835
I have now found a number of records from London’s Newgate gaol for this man. Ages all match, offence and sentence all match, and all documents give his occupation as “labourer” – nothing about being a baker.
The records also give his place of birth as “St Botolph” which is in Aldgate - right in the middle of London. This is the place where his parents are recorded as residing in both Samuel’s convict indent and in the following census.
So it is clear there are some errors which appear to have crept into Samuel’s records once in Tasmania. At some point his place of origin has incorrectly become Botolphs Sussex, rather than St Botolphs London.
The other error I believe is in relation to his trade which has been recorded in error as “baker”. I think this might have been confused with the name of his last employer in London which has been recorded on the convict indent as “Philip – Baker”. Was this Mr Philip a baker, or was he Mr Philip Baker ?– I don’t know. Possibly Samuel was doing labouring work for him.
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It does seem possible that COLLINS and COHEN are the same man. The circumstantial evidence is good.
One way to confirm would be to link the physical descriptions, if not by the tattoo, then by height, facial shape, eye and hair colour etc. Since your Samuel Collins was not a serious criminal, but rather a public nuisance, it is not surprising there is not a detailed description of him in police records.
The other way to confirm we have found the right man would be through DNA.
SUMMARY:
• Both Samuel COHEN and Samuel COLLINS are born about 1816 in London
• Both are Jews and both convicts
• Both can read and write
• Both travelled on ships “Mangles” and “William” (this is the most compelling fact)
• Both are in labouring-type/ unskilled occupations
• COLLINS said he had been in the colony from about 1835, which is the same year that convict Samuel COHEN arrived.
• There is no record of a convict named Samuel COLLINS of the right age arriving in the correct time period.
• Both men have records in Australia of “nuisance” and “disruptive behaviour”, but no particularly serious offences.
• COHEN arrived in Sydney from Tasmania in Oct 1845. I cannot find any evidence of a Samuel COHEN in Sydney after that date (no marriage, or death, or newspaper reference).
• Assumption - COHEN changed name to COLLINS between 1845 and (at the latest) 1855
Some general speculation:
• As you say the lack of a marriage may be due to his Jewish religion, or perhaps there was a church or synagogue marriage that does not appear in the formal registrations, as it occurred before this became compulsory.
• Samuel does not use any Cohen family names for his children. Had he felt abandoned by his Jewish family in London, he might have avoided their names, and perhaps was reason to change his own surname.
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This is the family of Samuel COHEN per “Mangles” 1835.
NOTE: He had brother Joseph who came to Australia. Working with descendants of this sibling Joseph COHEN – DNA might give you a clear answer.
There are quite a lot of public trees on Ancestry for this family. None of them seem to know about Samuel – probably because he was gone before the 1841 census.
Moses COHEN born 1777 Whitechapel, died 25 Nov 1862 aged 85 (occupation – “dealer”)
married Elizabeth PHILIPS (abt 1779 – 1852) in 1799 Great Synagogue, London.
Residence in 1841 and 1851 census (also at time of Samuel’s criminal sentence 1835) was Butlers Buildings, St Botolph, Aldgate, London.
1861 residence Swan St. St Botolph.
Children:
• Esther COHEN b. abt 1805
• Elizabeth COHEN b. abt 1806
• Julia COHEN b abt. 1810
• Frances COHEN b abt 1812
• Samuel COHEN b. abt 1816 – convict sent to VDL and then moved to Sydney
• James Simon COHEN b. abt 1819
• *Joseph COHEN b abt 1823 - emigrated to Melbourne
• Rebecca COHEN b. abt 1827
*Sibling Joseph COHEN was a general dealer, like his father Moses. Joseph emigrated to Australia in 1853 with his wife Rachel who died the same year. He married Phoebe SIMMONS in 1863 Victoria, and he died in Melbourne in 1904. In 1850 Joseph was in Newgate prison London, charged with receiving stolen goods – found not guilty.
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I am amazed at the amount of information you are providing- thank you very much.
The assumption that the 2 Samuels' are the same has merit and your thoughts on the reason for the name change very valid.
With a purpose to either "divorce" his family or to possibly hide the convict past also has merit and it reminds me that years ago, when I first got hooked on family research, I was told by my grandfather (Samuel's grandson) that Samuel had married a Mary Montgomery at Windsor. It was only when I started obtaining all of the birth registrations for the children of this union, that I found out that her maiden name was McCrumb and later, that she had married a Charles Chuck (another convict) who died in 1854 and not too make it sound too far fetched, Charles came to Australia on the "Mangles" although in 1837!
When I questioned a late aunt about the name Montgomery, I was advised that it was to hide the convict shame of both parents being Irish convicts. The irony of this also is that her mother, Sally, left her father and took up with yet another convict, John Montgomery!
This is looking more promising as it goes- I have done a search of my DNA records but cannot immediately identify any Cohens although I did make contact some time ago with a DNA 2-3rd cousin who also had Jewish ancestry but he has not proven very reliable in keeping up the communication.
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Just adding Links to convict records:
Samuel Cohen Conduct record page 1
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON31-1-7 image 311
conduct record page 2
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON32-1-2 image 193
Samuel Cohen description
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON18-1-16 image 17
Samuel Cohen convict Indent page 1
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON14-1-4 image 8
Indent page 2
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON14-1-4 image 9
There are various items in the Tasmanian papers relating to his ticket of leave and conditional pardons.
PLUS
Samuel Cohen Tasmania papers 1844
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8754855?searchTerm=%22samuel%20Cohen%22
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Hi Neale1961
Just received a CD " The Convict Ships 1788-1868"I ordered after being advised by the NAA that it is the "definitive guide" for convict transportation research.
I had hoped it would be a little bit more informative on the convicts but I suppose it really does give a good coverage of the ships.
I have also searched on Ancestry and found a private Tree with Joseph Cohen on it- I will write to the owner and see if I can shed more light on Samuel and/or his family.
Thanks for the additional convict records.
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I have also searched on Ancestry and found a private Tree with Joseph Cohen on it- I will write to the owner and see if I can shed more light on Samuel and/or his family.
I would ask them if they have done a DNS test, and see if you have any links there.
I don't think they will not know anything about Samuel, as he was gone from London before the census records.
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Thanks Neale1961
You are right but it may open up other avenues.
I meant to tell you that a long time ago, when I was advised about my possible Jewish roots, I wrote to a Rabbi to see if he could fill me on about Samuel Collins or if he knew of a Samuel Collins.
He advised me that he had not record of a Jewish convict of this name and the topic dropped.
I think it was a Rabbi named John Levi so I am trying to go through all of the plethora of paper/old computer records to see if I can get in contact with him again.
I will let you know how I het on with the owner of the family tree.
Thanks again, your assistance is greatly appreciated.
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Hi again Neale1961 et al
Well a number of my hunches /sources have not born fruit in determining who my Samuel Collins was.
The owner of the family tree did respond and tell me that she was only doing the tree for a relative and t just came along with no knowledge of this part.
Two occasions to have the assistance of the NSW State Archives has also proven useless. Even when they have been given the 4 exact times, prisoner number and gaol, they are either unable, or more likely, unwilling to give me the simple description of the tattoos which adorned the Samuel Collins entering these establishments. They originally told me that I could get these answers on Ancestry, and when I told them I was on Ancestry they told me that I can only get it by accessing the information in the "reading room" - this is no assistance as I cannot afford to fly to Sydney and make my way out to them or, another suggestion, hire a researcher to do it- again out of the question.
They have also pushed to have a Samuel Collins, whose photo is available, to be the one I am researching even though this one was born in 1848 and would have fathered his first child aged 9 years!!
I am afraid I may have to just give in unless there are any other suggestions to get these "publlc servants" to do their job.
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It is probable that there are no physical descriptions for him. He wasn’t a hardened criminal after all, just a disorderly nuisance. If physical descriptions were made, these usually can be found in the police gazettes, but there was nothing for you man.
I was aware of the file with photos for the Collins born 1848 that you mentioned. Of course I had already looked at it and know it is a different person.
I think the only way forward is through DNA, and you might have more luck linking with Cohen family descendants still in the UK. Again there are trees on Ancestry.
My hunch is that Samuel Cohen and Samuel Colllins are the same person, but of course you want some more concrete proof.
Don’t give up. :)
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Hi Nesle1961
Without saying there are no records of him, there is an inference that there is with various references to a number of files only held by them and a tendency to tout for a researcher to be engaged to access these files.
With this mind, I remain at a loss as to why they cannot say that there are no descriptions of Samuel Collins despite the fact that the number of incarcerations he had , would have warranted a shield to have been erected in his honor at the gaol.
I wont give up and I will seek alternate ways to access this information because just because I live in Queensland, the majority of my family live in NSW so I may have to enlist them.
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Hi Neale1961
You were right as to no records of tattoos etc. being on the records for the numerous admissions for Samuel Collins.
I found this out after a lot of tooing and froing with the State Archives so, for now, it looks like I will have to just either give up or wait for some match through a distant blood relative.
Regards
Geoff