RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: bully on Saturday 03 September 22 13:33 BST (UK)
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Good Afternoon,
For a long time now,I’ve been trying to find the marriage of Mary Jane Obryan and Thomas Cooper,with no joy,so I thought I would ask all you kind people out there.
What I do know,is from the 1901 census,when they were all in kemberton,Shropshire.
Two of their children were born in Southern Ireland,Kilkenny and Cork,all the others in Shropshire.
The age shown for the mum is 30,and Thomas was 33.
Mary Ann was ten/Kilkenny and Isabella was 9/Cork.
I’m just questing they probably married around 1891,going by Mary’s age.
On Ancestry,someone has put her dads name as John Bryan and her mums as Jane Byrne,but I don’t know that.
Thanking you in advance
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Here is Isabella’s birth - mother Jane Brine
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1892/02352/1879127.pdf
Thomas is a Private in the Shropshire Regiment
Mary Anne - mother Jane Byrne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1890/02428/1904552.pdf
No sign of a marriage yet. Jane gives Wexford as her place of birth in 1901.
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Deleted it just repeated heywood's.
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You migh5 find some information on his military record.
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There is this birth for a Jane Brien in 1/2/1870 with father Patt Brien and mother Catherine nee Redmond born at Sion Co Wexford Kilpatrick Parish
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03357/2230963.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/wexford/shelmaliere-east/kilpatrick/artramon/sion/
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There is another one just below that shanreagh. :-\
She calls herself Mary Jane in 1911 so might be looking for Mary as Irish genealogy doesn’t show second name in the indexes.
I have looked for an English marriage but nothing there either that I can see.
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There is another one just below that shanreagh. :-\
She calls herself Mary Jane in 1911 so might be looking for Mary as Irish genealogy doesn’t show second name in the indexes.
I have looked for an English marriage but nothing there either that I can see.
It is just that on the children's birth registration she is Jane Brine and Jane Byrne.
The lower entry, sorry I should have put this as well is for a Jane also a daughter of Laurence Brien and Margaret Brien nee Hughes in Newcastle on 22/2/1870.
It would be useful if OP could come back and let us know the names, in birth order, of the other children they may have had.
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Brien/O'Brien and Byrne are two quite different surnames, which does not help. Has OP got the mother's surname from the births of the other children in England?
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From GRO
1894 John Harold - OBrine
1895. Thomas Laurence - OBrien
1897. William Andrew - Bryen
1900. Lily. - OBryan
1902. Edith. - Bryan
1903 Reuben. -OBryan
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From GRO
1894 John Harold - OBrine
1895. Thomas Laurence - OBrien
1897. William Andrew - Bryen
1900. Lily. - OBryan
1902. Edith. - Bryan
1903 Reuben. -OBryan
And is is Mary, Jane, or Mary Jane on these?
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No idea. It just gives the mother’s maiden name but they match 1911 census and number of children born/alive.
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No idea. It just gives the mother’s maiden name but they match 1911 census and number of children born/alive.
ha ha though clutching at a straw there is a Laurence there as a second name and one of the births of Jane Briens I found had a Lawrence as a father!
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Yes I wondered that but there are several births in the wider county area too.
I think Thomas’s father was John.
There are published trees where the military records seems to have been downloaded but it is still Fold3 so can’t be seen.
Often you see on those records details of a marriage. I think, though, that permission had to be sought to get married so who knows!
FindMyPast looks to have the record too.
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They do look as though they are their children.
Edith was my NaN.
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Morning,
Just wanted to let you know that Thomas and Mary’s marriage date is on the 1911 census as 1889.
The only one I found that matched was in south Dublin,but it didn’t have Thomas mentioned.
Could anyone have a look for me please?
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....Thomas and Mary’s marriage date is on the 1911 census as 1889.
The 1911 census asked for the number of completed years married so the marriage year (as calculated) could be 1888-1890 depending on if they knew their marriage year.
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1911 shows Mary Jane as 37 yrs with 22 years of marriage.
A marriage year could then be 1888-89 as already mentioned but often, if there was no marriage, a date around a year before the first born child was invented.
What name are you searching for with the Dublin South marriage? I have looked for Mary and Jane but no Cooper spouse.
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Hi,
The marriage I found in south Dublin 1889 was a Mary Jane O’Brien in the Jan-March period.
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That marriage is here:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10724/5910146.pdf
She is marrying a man named James McKenna.
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Well,that’s not the marriage
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Well,that’s not the marriage
So who did you find marrying Mary Jane O'Brien in Dublin South?
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There was no husbands name
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
I think this is key.
She may have been the daughter of a serving army person and they could have been married in wherever in the world the Army was serving.
One of the places the Army served was Ireland.
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
She may have been the daughter of a serving army person
The anachronism. Back then, they had rude things called "soldiers".
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
They could have been married in wherever in the world the Army was serving.
One of the places the Army served was Ireland.
And they should have still ended up in the GRO records. Army BMD were reported back to the English GRO, and of Irish "subjects" in turn back to the Irish GRO. I have several B and D that were so registered. e.g. B and D in Egypt, D in South Africa.
If you ever looked at the printed indices, you would see a separate section at the back, for the army reports. Only from "overseas" of course. And despite Ireland being overseas, it was not "overseas".
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Well,that’s not the marriage
So who did you find marrying Mary Jane O'Brien in Dublin South?
She was just working from the original printed index, or a transcript thereof (Ancestry?), which did not identify the spouse.
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
She may have been the daughter of a serving army person
The anachronism. Back then, they had rude things called "soldiers".
Believe it or not the point I was trying to make was not to assume that both the husband and the possible father were soldiers/other ranks and not an officer and another rank. I was not using it to cover male/female or whatever you think I was...am thinking you mean euphemism rather than anachronism.
Former wife of serving naval other rank. His superiors ie the officers were not keen on being called sailors.
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
I think this is key.
She may have been the daughter of a serving army person and they could have been married in wherever in the world the Army was serving.
One of the places the Army served was Ireland.
I wasn’t thinking of this as a scenario, her being connected to the army, but as has been pointed out it would still be recorded.
I just thought the time line may help plus there is often/usually a reference to marriage and children.
There does not seem to be a later marriage in Shropshire either up to the time of the death of Mary J Cooper in 1913.
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There doesn’t seem to be a marriage in Irish or English records.
Have you had sight of Thomas’ military record?
They could have been married in wherever in the world the Army was serving.
One of the places the Army served was Ireland.
And they should have still ended up in the GRO records. Army BMD were reported back to the English GRO, and of Irish "subjects" in turn back to the Irish GRO. I have several B and D that were so registered. e.g. B and D in Egypt, D in South Africa.
If you ever looked at the printed indices, you would see a separate section at the back, for the army reports. Only from "overseas" of course. And despite Ireland being overseas, it was not "overseas".
The key word is 'should'. By no means certain that they would end up on any official records such as BDM back home. I have had to go to extraordinary lengths to track down marriages in India in the same time frame and earlier than this marriage may have occurred. Even a close to England post such as Gibraltar was difficult to find BDM of serving soldiers etc based there.
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Oh dear time to leave the thread I think.
If we don't put up ideas and what ifs things may not be investigated even if they sound wild and wacky. Some times a new idea gets us forward.
Please devote yourselves to helping the OP rather than arguing about the likelihood of any of my suggestions. That is all they are suggestions for OP to look at primarily.
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I am not arguing with you or anyone. :-\ I thought you made a good point.
I detected sarcasm, I thought, from Wexflyer but didn’t realise why which shows my level of intuition. ::)
I agree though that we are getting nowhere and the army record may be the only clue left (and I realise there may no no hint there).
There is a newspaper snippet August 1891 mentioning the Shropshire regiment leaving camp (Kilkenny? ) for Fermoy and then on to Cork.
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Thomas had left the army by 1901 census. Old thread about Cooper family.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=312022
Do you know names of parents & siblings of Thomas Cooper? If a traditional naming pattern was used for the Cooper-O'Brian children, we could suggest possible names for Mary Jane's parents.
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Hi again,
For the person who asked if I know who Thomas Coopers parents were......I have a dna match with a chap on my ancestry site,who says he thinks Thomas was his great uncle,born about 1867 in Ditton priors Shropshire,his mum and dad were also born there.
Father;John 1843-1909 Mother Ann,was Evans 1843-1909.
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Are Thomas and Mary Jane your direct ancestors?
If so, are there Irish connections which could be traced?
(Clutching at straws now)
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Thomas and Jane are my direct ancestors,they are my nans parents
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We’ve already found Mary Anne and Isabella
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We’ve already found Mary Anne and Isabella
Sorry, I meant with your DNA matches. You mentioned one on Thomas’s side.
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I’ve been trying to find the marriage of Mary Jane Obryan and Thomas Cooper
What I do know,is from the 1901 census,when they were all in kemberton,Shropshire.
I’m just questing they probably married around 1891,going by Mary’s age.
Have you found Thomas Cooper on a census before 1901?