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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Brian1 on Monday 05 September 05 23:30 BST (UK)
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Wonder if anyone can help me. I had an uncle Thomas James Gordon ( 966724 ) serving in 201 squadron during WW2 on Sunderland Flying Boats as an airgunner. His was shot down on 21.8.41. in the area off the Orkney's. In his documents he is described as a leading aircraftsman, the same is true for the Runnymede inscription, but I am under the impression that all aircrew were automatically given the rank of Sergeant. I also thought that this lead to some discontent with older members of the mess who viewed these new n.c.o's as upstarts
Anyone got any views?
Brian1
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Hi
Just found this.
Rank could be an A.C.1 or up,but with the start of the war the new Air Gunners badge came into being and then all flying personnel were awarded the rank of Seargant.
Bryan
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Hi Bryan,
As you can see by the details above he was killed in August 1941, so the war had been underway for some month's, but letters from his C.O. to my g. mother and official statistics still list him as a Leading aircraftsman.
Something doesn't quite gell!
Brian1
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hello bryan,he could have been killed shortly before promotion,his papers may not have gone through in time so the rank he held when he was killed would be the one given on the cwgc,the MK1 sunderland was used by 7 squadrons at the beginning of the war,only 90 being built,i think your uncle thomas may have been flying on a MK2,they were introduced in august 1941,mack
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Hi Mack,
Thanks for the info. I have a photo taken shortly before he died and he is wearing sergeant chevrons, but possibly they were allowed to wear them prior to their promotion being made substantive.
Brian1
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brian,your right,i have many pictures of lance sergeants in the manchester pals who are still wearing two stripes,a lance sgt is a corporal[paid] who is waiting for the next vacant sgts post,but hes allowed to wear three stripes,its similar to your uncles case,if you can find out the MK sunderland he was flying that may solve it,he was killed in aug and the MK11 was introduced in aug,so there was very little time for his papers to clear,mack
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brian,this lads father was flt sgt 523695 robert [bob] dickie,he was responsible for sorting out the effects of crew members who were killed,hes looking for others who served with the squadron,this is his e.mail address
rbrtdc@aol.com
and this lady is also looking for others who served with her father,flt sgt 1905022 simon,joseph rutledge,this his her e.mail address
madelein.carter@btopenworld.com.
the squadron didnt start re-equipping with sunderlands till early 1941[may]prior to that,they were flying MK11 london flying boats,they operated from the depot ship MANELA at sullem voe in the shetlands.
good hunting brian,mack
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Hi Mack,
Thanks for your help. Have all details of the incident from W/Cdr Abrams 201 squadron. The Sunderlands number was W 3982 which was flying an anti submarine patrol taking off at midday on 21st August '41. A signal was received at 4.11 p.m. saying that they had sighted an enemy aircraft. Seven minutes later an SOS was sent. At 5 p.m. another Sunderland set off to search as did land based aircraft, but to no avail. The following day two naval vessels and another Sunderland joined the search and the only item found was a bag belonging to the previous member of the crew. The Sunderland was manned by 13 crew.
Thanks again for your help.
Brian
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brian,she must have been drawn into a trap by the german plane,one enemy aircraft could not survive against a sunderland,thats why they were called the flying porcupine,they were heavily armed,mack
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HI mack,
They must have been very unlucky!
Have sent an email to the son of sgt Robert with all the details I have given you.
Thanks agian
Brian
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good luck mate,hope you get a good result,mack
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Mack,
Thanks for your help and support, it is much appreciated.
I think Rootchat is the best genealogy site on the net. It has helped get some of my lines back as far as 1665! Long may it reign
Brian
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Hi,
You may be able to get help and additional info if you post a request for information on the general queries message baord at:
www.rafcommands.com
Regards,
Ann
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Brian1.. I was just linked to this thread by someone on WW2Talk.com..
I've been doing some research into my great uncle Jack (F W Selfe) who was on the same plane as your uncle.. Sunderland W3982.
I have a handful of pictures of my uncle with various other folks - it's quite possible one might be your uncle. If we could share email addresses at some point and chat about this, it'd be wonderful. Would love to know if you have any more information that I don't!
I have a letter from the Air Historical Branch from 1989 which details what happened when they were shot down - sounds very similar to the information you have.
Thanks!
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Brian1
Hope this info helps to bring light about the formation of the squadron and the planes they flew in particular relevance to you the dates during WWII.
201 SQUADRON
Originally formed 17th October 1914 at Fort Grange, Gosport, as 1 (Naval) Squadron, RNAS becoming 1 Wing, RNAS from June 1915. On 1st March 1916 'A' Squadron of 1 Wing, RNAS was detached and from 3rd July 1916 was known as the 'Detached Squadron'. The unit reverted to 1 (Naval) Squadron, RNAS from 3rd December 1916. Became 201 Squadron, RAF from 1st April 1918 whilst at Fienvillers, France.
Camel E5227 F; Snipe E8102.
Disbanded 31st December 1919 at Eastleigh.
Reformed 1st January 1929 at Calshot by redesignating 480 (Coastal Reconnaissance) Flight.
Nil (1.29-4.39) Southampton I S1125, II S1058; London I K5262 Z, II K5911 G.
VQ (4.49-9.39) London II L7042 VQ-W.
ZM (9.39-8.43) London II K5257 ZM-Y; Sunderland I P9606 ZM-R, II T9087 ZM-O, III ML743 ZM-A.
Nil (8.43-7.44) Sunderland II T9087, III EJ137 T.
NS (7.44-4.51) Sunderland III ML759, V RN304 NS-L; Sea Otter I JM815; Bv 222C-012 VP501 .
A (4.51-2.57) Sunderland VB889 A-D.
Disbanded 28th February 1957 at Pembroke Dock.
Reformed 1st October 1958 at St Mawgan by renumbering 220 Squadron.
201 (10.58- .66) Shackleton MR.3 WR977 201-L.
Nil (.66- ) Shackleton MR.3 WR977 O; Nimrod MR.1 XV240, MR.2P XV241.
Currently as @ 1st April 1998 at Kinloss.
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How sad that as a result of the recent defence review 201 squadron now has no aircraft and its base, RAF Kinloss, will close. It appears that suddenly there is no longer a need for this island nation to have any maritime reconnaissance capability. Makes you wonder what the Nimrods have been doing up to now.