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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: janyjo on Friday 14 October 22 00:27 BST (UK)
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I would like to find Irish records about my great-great grandfather John Jordon, who I believe was a weaver in Gortroche, Ballyhooly or Castletownroche in County Cork, Ireland. John was born about 1805, Catherine about 1802 and Patrick about 1840. The three of them emigrated to Canada between 1841 and 1851. They do not appear in the 1841 Census of Canada but they do appear in the 1851 Census under the surname Georden. That spelling does not appear in any of the Irish records I have found. They lived in the sub-district of Hallowell in the district of Prince Edward County in Ontario, Canada. Catharine died in 1853 and John married Mary O’Leary in 1855. He had two sons, Moses and John from that marriage.
I had found out all of that early on in my research. I am now concentrating on tracing John Jordon back into Ireland as far as I can go.
Since John was a tanner and a weaver, I consider my finding of a carding mill on a John Jordan’s property in Gortroche, Castletownroche, County Cork, Ireland to be significant. I found this in land records on Findmypast.
However, I have not found a baptismal record or a marriage record for a John Jordan in Gortroche. I found a Patrick Jordan born in 1840 but the father is Thomas.
I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has any information about any of the Jordans in Gortroche or any other area in County Cork.
Thank you.
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There are too many variables/might/could etc to work with here.
"The three of them emigrated to Canada between about 1848 and 1851."
Why is 1848 significant? Why is 1851 significant?
Do you see them in a census, 1851, Canada?
Can you describe the Census details so that people here can find the Census entry.
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Is this your family?
Ancestry Canada Census 1851 Blenheim Prince Edward County Canada West (Ontario)
GEORDEN John weaver b. Ireland Ch of Rome age next birthday 44 (line15)
GEORDEN Catherine wife b. Ireland Ch of Rome age next birthday 47 (line16)
GEORDEN Patrick b. Ireland Ch of Rome age next birthday 10 (line17)
Continued on next page......and my transcription of the location....
town of Hallowell comprising all that part of half mile of the road leading from the township line of lot number 10 to the village ...township lying north Wellington.
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If you are researching the origins of these three people, their lives in Canadae 1851+ might hold a clue.
For the three people named in my Reply #2, what happened next....after the 1851 Census?
Where do you see them 1851+.......?
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1881 Census it appears John has remarried to a Mary, with sons Moses 23 and John 19
His occp Tanner and Weaver
John Jnrs Death Cert 1910 has his Mother as Mary O'Leary
His 1882 Death Reg is on F/S born c 1803
Info on F/S but unable to see other Census there but someone with Anc world sub may be able too :)
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I have added to my original post. I hope you will take a look at it.
John, Catherine and Patrick lived in Hallowell together until Catherine’s death in 1853, as attested by a parish record obtained from St. Gregory’s Church in Picton. I have found no further trace of Patrick after Catherine’s death.
John married Mary O’Leary in 1855 and they lived in Hallowell, Prince Edward County, Ontario, Canada. They had two sons, Moses, born in 1859, and John, born in 1862 or 1863. John Sr. died in 1882 and Mary died in 1904. Both died in Prince Edward County, Ontario, Canada.
I would certainly like to know what happened to Patrick. However, my main focus is now on finding John and his ancestors in Ireland.
Any help anyone can provide would be much appreciated.
Thank you all for the replies I have received so far.
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"John, Catherine and Patrick lived in Hallowell together until Catherine’s death in 1853, as attested by a parish record obtained from St. Gregory’s Church in Picton."
Can you expand on this please. Parish record for what?...death of Catherine?
Can you give all the wording on the record please.
What documents do you have for BDM events in the lives of the people you are researching?
Ancestry Census Canada 1861
Enumeration District No 5 Township of Hallowell Prince Edward, Canada West
JORDAN John age last birthday: 45y religion: RC
occupation: weaver birthplace: Ireland (line 49, page 69)
JORDAN Mary age last birthday: 35y religion: RC
birthplace: Ireland (line 50, page 69)
Members of Family: 1 male 1 female
Persons over 20 who cannot read and write:
(Nothing indicated for the r/w category.)
JORDAN Moses age last birthday: 2y religion: RC birthplace: Up C (line 1, page 75)
Moses JODAN, age 2 years, is not with his parents. Who is Moses with.......might be extended family.
What do you know about the family that Moses is with, 1861?
Mary O'LEARY is nearly 30 years old when she marries?.
Rather older for first marriage in those days?
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“Since John was a tanner and a weaver, I consider my finding of a carding mill on a John Jordan’s property in Gortroche, Castletownroche, County Cork, Ireland to be significant. I found this in land records on Findmypast”
Do you have records which indicate that he was born in Cork - especially Castletownroche area?
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I simply have a date for Catharine’s death, 1853. Similarly, I have a date for John and Mary’s marriage, 1855. The church would not release the records. I have a handwritten transcription of Mary’s death date and interment, 1904.
I do not know whether Mary was married previously. She would have been about 34 when she married John, since she apparently died in 1904 at
82.
Mary and John’s neighbour was a Francis O’Leary. Mary could have been a sister of Francis. Daniel was 49 in the 1861 Census.
I do have a record for John’s death. It is available in the records on Family Search, Ancestry and MyHeritage. He died in South Marysburgh, Prince Edward County, Ontario.
The local Family History Centre has suggested to me that Moses was with his own family in 1861 and that the census pages may have stuck together and there may have been nothing on the pages in between. Moses was with his own family in the 1871 and 1881 Census.
John and Mary were illiterate. They signed a mortgage document with an X.
I do not think I can find out anything more about the family in Canada, although I would certainly like to find out what happened to Patrick.
I have not located any birth or marriage records for John and Catherine in Castletownroche. There is a John Jurdan born in Mitchelstown in 1797.
I do not know for certain that John was born in Cork, although my grandfather said so.
Thank you for your help.
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When you are giving information to a forum to work with it is really important to identify how you have come by the information.
Are you the researcher who has located the information about the 1855 marriage?
If the information came from the church, do you mean archival records held at St Gregory's church, or do you mean archival records held by the Roman Catholic church, Ontario?
It seems rather odd that when you approached St Gregory's for information about the marriage they would only give a year, and no month or date.
"Mary and John’s neighbour was a Francis O’Leary. Mary could have been a sister of Francis. Daniel was 49 in the 1861 Census."
Where and when do you see Francis O'LEARY to be a neighbour to your John and Mary JORDAN?
"I do not know whether Mary was married previously."
Does that mean that you also do not know if John JORDAN was married as a bachelor or as a widower?
"Daniel was 49 in the 1861 Census." Who is Daniel?. Daniel who?
Further to the 1861 Census, with John JORDAN and Mary JORDAN on page 69, and Moses JORDAN on page 75 - all pages 69 to 75 are clearly visible. There are no pages stuck together.
At 1861 Moses JORDAN, age 2 years, is 250 Census entries away from his parents.
"I simply have a date for Catharine’s death, 1853. Similarly, I have a date for John and Mary’s marriage, 1855. The church would not release the records."
Have the dates from....where?. How did you find the dates?
You need to identify how you, personally, have found the information you are using. The source of the information is just as important as the substance of the information.
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"John, Catherine and Patrick lived in Hallowell together until Catherine’s death in 1853, as attested by a parish record obtained from St. Gregory’s Church in Picton."
What parish record enables you to say that Patrick JORDAN was living in Hallowell in 1853, when Catherine JORDAN died?.
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I obtained the marriage and years mentioned in my previous reply from St. Gregory’s RC archives held at the church. I contacted the church secretary, who provided the years. I had expected that she would provide the complete records, especially since I paid for her efforts. However, that was not the case. The records are not held in the Ontario Archives.
I do not know if John was married to Catherine and therefore if it was a first marriage for John. MyHeritage states marriage (implied) and for Patrick, son (implied).
Francis, not Daniel, O’Leary was 49 in 1861. A slip of the pen.
I have a photocopy of part of a landowner’s map, the Tremaine Map, which shows that John Jordon’s and Francis O’Leary’s properties were contiguous. I obtained the map from the Prince Edward County Public Archives in Wellington, Ontario.
I cannot explain why Moses appeared to be with another family in 1861. It might have been temporarily and the census could have been taken while he was with that family.
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I would like to find Irish records about my great-great grandfather John Jordon, who I believe was a weaver in Gortroche, Ballyhooly or Castletownroche in County Cork, Ireland. John was born about 1805, C
However, I have not found a baptismal record or a marriage record for a John Jordan in Gortroche.
Registers for R.C. parish of Castletownroche
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0031
Start year 1811 for baptism and marriage registers.
Registers for 2 neighbouring parishes, Annakissy and Rathcormack began earlier.
The marriage may have been in another parish if John's wife was from a different parish to him.
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Since John was a tanner and a weaver, I consider my finding of a carding mill on a John Jordan’s property in Gortroche, Castletownroche, County Cork, Ireland to be significant. I found this in land records on Findmypast.
What was the record?
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Some Ontario church records from the 1800s are sadly lacking in information and sometimes not available. Researching is made even more difficult when grave markers are missing or weren’t initially placed on the grave.
I don’t think this has been mentioned (hubby is waiting for me so not taking the time to look):
In 1851, a Delany family is shown one entry above the Geordens. In 1861, when a Moses Jorden, age 2, is shown at the top of a census page, what appears to be the same Delany family is also on the page.
Is it possible that:
Moses was with the Delanys for some reason?
Was Andrew Delany Catherine’s brother? Was Ann, Andrew’s wife, Catherine’s or John’s sister?
My Stuart ancestor was in Ontario by 1851 and he was living near/next to three different family members in different census years. Perhaps there’s a chance that the Delanys were related to the Jordons (if Moses was with the Delanys in 1861).
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Thank you all for your insightful replies.
The 1881 Census of Canada states John’s occupation as weaver and tanner. The 1851 and 1861 censuses state weaver. The 1871 census states farmer.
In the Census of 1851, it is stated that Irish settlers resided in the Irvine Gore, commonly known as the Irish Gore. The Lambs, Williamsons, Wilsons and Delaneys were among this group. Ann Delaney could have been related to John or Catherine, but I do not know how to research that possibility. It is also possible that Moses was with a neighbour because his mother was about to give birth to her son John.
I have also noticed that Francis O’Leary was not listed in the Irvine Gore in 1851, but he was there in 1861. Could he have brought a sister Mary with him from Ireland circa 1855? It is certainly a stretch but I saw a Mary O’Leary as a lessor to a Jordan in a land record in Castletownroche.
I also noticed that a John and Cathrin Raedon were listed above John Jordon in the 1851 Census. I have looked at the image and the entry appears to be Riordan, which I have read is often confused with Jordon.
I have noted that baptismal and marriage records in Castletownroche did not begin until 1811. Thank you for mentioning that detail.
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Whoops! Regarding my comment about the “Riordans”, they were listed in the 1861 Census.
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…In the Census of 1851, it is stated that Irish settlers resided in the Irvine Gore, commonly known as the Irish Gore. The Lambs, Williamsons, Wilsons and Delaneys were among this group. Ann Delaney could have been related to John or Catherine, but I do not know how to research that possibility. It is also possible that Moses was with a neighbour because his mother was about to give birth to her son John…
I tried searching for Ann’s childrens’ death certificates but I’m not certain that I found all of them as I was interrupted a few times. The documents I did find either had blanks or “unknown” for the mother’s full name and place of birth. I was hoping that I would find her maiden name, but no luck.
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Thank you for trying, Lisa. I didn’t realize that death certificates stated the mother’s maiden name. I will try that tactic in future.
I can’t help thinking that one of the John Jordans in Gortroche, Castletownroche, County Cork is my great-great grandfather. It doesn’t seem that I will be able to find a baptismal certificate. However, I have the land record showing a carding mill on his property and I have marriage records for potential children who list John Jordan as their father. And I have baptismal records for most of those children.
How much weight should I give to the finding of a carding mill on a John Jordan’s property in my search for my great-great grandfather?
Thank you for your help.
Thank you for your help.
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Hi. Some Ontario death records have (places for) helpful information; others don’t. In my case, it didn’t necessarily have anything to do with the era as I’ve found records from 1900-1910 that are frustratingly very brief.
I might suggest trying to go through every lead/idea in North America before looking in Ireland.
Have you searched the internet for Jordons (settlers/pioneers) in Hallowell?
Looking at your generations, did they follow the Irish naming pattern?
Were there any Jordons in North America, around the same time, who were weavers?
Were any of the sons/grandsons weavers? (Perhaps they carried on the family occupation)
I don’t know anything about weaving, but I wonder if he specialized in a type of weaving that might have been more popular in one part of Ireland than another?
You might keep in mind that his occupation could have changed upon his arrival in North America. I have one Irish ancestor who was a school teacher in 1850 and owned a fancy goods establishment (which remained in the family for decades) in 1861.
I wonder how they chose to live in Hallowell. Did they just kind of wander to the area, or did they follow family, neighbours, friends?
Do you have access to Anc*try?
Have you tried interest searches for every spelling of Jordon and Hallowell, Ireland, settler, weaver, County Cork AND Hallowell, etc. I had to resort to trying various combinations when searching for my 1800s Canadian ancestors. In a few cases, after weeks/months of searching, I found amazing things!
I will try to think of other ideas.
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Ancestry Ontario Marriages https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/7921/
1860 +/- 10 years
St Gregory's Mission Ontario
16 Jan 1854
O'LEARY John
Parents: Daniel O'LEARY Joanna FITZPATRICK
REARDON Catherine
Parents: Jeremia REARDON / Julia CONNELL
Witnesses: John FITZPATRICK X Mary REARDON
1 Oct 1854
O'LEARY Lewis (?)
Residence: T P Reach
Parents: Arthur O'LEARY / Mary CROWLEY
O'BOYLE Mary
Residence: -
Parents: - / -
Witnesses Jery O'CONNOR Mary O'LEARY
2 Dec 1854
O'LEARY Daniel
Residence:
Parents: Timothy O'LEARY / Honor SHEAHAN
REARDON Abigale
Residence:
Parents: Timothy REARDON / Eliza SWENEY
Witnesses: Daniel HEALEY Margaret REARDON
8 Jul 1855
O'LEARY Mary
Residence: TP Pickering
Parents: Timothy O'LEARY / Mary SULLIVAN
LARKIN Patrick
Residence: Pickering
Parents: Henry LARKIN / Mary BRANKENS
Witnesses: Robert GARLAU Mary O'LEARY
All are formatted to include - age of bride and groom, marital status, signature of bride and groom, religion of bride and groom, occupation of bride and groom, addresses of witnesses.
Clergyman for all these ......J B PROULX
my notes.......question mark at Lewis O'LEARY appears on the page
........ X at Mary REARDON, witness appears on the page.
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Thank you Lisa and Wivenhoe. I have a lot of work to do. Will keep you posted!
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Unfortunately, none of the O’Learys, Reardons and others appear to be related to me. They are from different parts of Ontario. Prince Edward County is very rural and isolated. People did not move around and they married within the county. It is much the same today.
I believe the Irish came to Prince Edward County in search of good land. Many United Empire Loyalists came up from the U.S. after the American Revolution and we’re given land grants by King George III for their loyalty and service to the Crown.
I would certainly like to have the RC records from St. Gregory’s Church. I do think they would provide some clues. I have again pleaded my case to the church secretary, who will ask a special favour of the priest…
Meanwhile, I will search again for Jordons who may be weavers in Ontario and Cork. John’s sons were both farmers as was my grandfather William.
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I would certainly like to have the RC records from St. Gregory’s Church. I do think they would provide some clues. I have again pleaded my case to the church secretary, who will ask a special favour of the priest…
You don’t want to try a different approach at this time since the secretary may try to get special permission, but something to keep in mind if it doesn’t work? I’m not Catholic, but in California if one has an issue, they can go to the local (RC) diocese. A few ideas to think about:
- Write to the diocese and explain that you have an inquiry about your direct ancestor (if you are only searching for John and Catherine, not great uncles, second cousins, etc.). If you do not live in the area, you might advise them that you cannot visit in person and you are only inquiring for genealogy purposes. If the pertinent records are at their disposal, you could give them a brief summary of the information you have (name, dob, place last lived, etc.) and how you are related to the person. I tried this approach, contacting cemetery offices - a few could not help me - some did - one in particular gave me more information than was asked (giving me details about my ancestor’s first wife - who was my direct ancestor, and buried in a different section of the cemetery).
- If you do live in the area, contact the local diocese office and try to schedule a meeting with the appropriate staff member. Bring (limited) material that staff can momentarily glance to see why your information is important to you.
- Might someone at St. George conduct a search for a small fee? I’ve been very successful with that approach. But, I once paid a fairly high fee for obtaining (previously digitized) records from an English church (birth, marriage and death records for one surname) - I wasn’t too happy about the cost but it was the only way to further my research for that surname.
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Thank you for your reply, Lisa.
I have already contacted the diocese in Kingston, Ontario. They will not conduct research. I have already paid for the research done by the church secretary at St. Gregory’s and it was insufficient for my purposes. I am hoping that the priest will agree to release the full records.
In the meantime, I stumbled upon a record in the United States Index to Passenger Arrivals, Atlantic and Gulf Ports 1820-1874. The image is almost illegible but I can at least see that the occupation was weaver. I cannot make out a date or the port of entry. Could there be a better image anywhere? How can I use that record to further my research?
I had thought that John might have gone first to the U.S. because the 1851 Census of Canada lists Ontario as the arrival point. If he had gone directly to Canada, he would have first landed in the province of Quebec.
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I will see if I can find the image…
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Thank you for your reply, Lisa.
I have already contacted the diocese in Kingston, Ontario. They will not conduct research. I have already paid for the research done by the church secretary at St. Gregory’s and it was insufficient for my purposes. I am hoping that the priest will agree to release the full records.
In the meantime, I stumbled upon a record in the United States Index to Passenger Arrivals, Atlantic and Gulf Ports 1820-1874. The image is almost illegible but I can at least see that the occupation was weaver. I cannot make out a date or the port of entry. Could there be a better image anywhere? How can I use that record to further my research?
I had thought that John might have gone first to the U.S. because the 1851 Census of Canada lists Ontario as the arrival point. If he had gone directly to Canada, he would have first landed in the province of Quebec.
Wow, not having full records after paying a fee is disheartening. I suppose if they make one allowance then they should make other allowances, but still. :-\. Hopefully, they will give you additional details.
I have not yet found the passenger list (using Anc*try); I’m not sure why.
Update: I still cannot see the record on Anc*try. ???
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The record is in the United States Index to Passenger Arrivals, Atlantic and Gulf Ports, 1820-1874. I found it on Family Search and it is also on MyHeritage.
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Looking at the FamilySearch image
Jordon John(?), 35 years, Male. Destination U.S.(?). Occupation could be Weaver. Nationality Ire, last permanent address Ire(?) . Port of entry Phila(?). Vessel Champlain.
and text under the image
Includes immigration date 1846. Looking at the image again, it could be 11-14-1846
While I have not yet found a passenger list (image) with John Jordon, weaver, there is a bit more on Ancestry.
The Champlain sailed from Liverpool, England and arrived in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania on 14 Nov 1846.
Also from Anc*try
Schooner Champlain, departed Liverpool, arrived Philadelphia on Nov 14 1846
John Jardan, age 35, male. Occupation: Farmers, Mechanics and Laborer
I have not yet found Catherine or Patrick.
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I found an image, but separate occupations were not listed
Thos(?) Jardan, age 25, Mrs. Jardan, age 24, Wm, age 2, Hugh, infant, male
They are shown two entries under
John Jardan, age 35.
Between the Jardan names was a
Moses(?) McConnell, age 30
Written at the bottom of this page and the top of the next page was “Farmers, Mechanics and Labourers”
I have not yet found the Jardan family in North America.
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"I obtained the marriage and years mentioned in my previous reply from St. Gregory’s RC archives held at the church. I contacted the church secretary, who provided the years."
When did this happen?. When did you contact the church secretary?
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I contacted the church secretary in June 2022, approximately. I have been trying to get more information from her since then. I last spoke to her in early October, 2022, at which time she said she would ask the priest if she could release the records. No word from her since then…
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Thank you, Lisa. I’m going to try to find John in the US Census of 1850.
It may be that Catherine and Patrick arrived later, either in the US or Canada.
I’m going to try to match up the other Jardans listed with Jordans I researched in Castletownroche.
It has come to mind that John Jordan (weaver) in Gortroche was listed in Griffith’s in 1851 and therefore could not have been in Philadelphia at the same time.
In what collection did you find the information on Ancestry?
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In what collection did you find the information on Ancestry?
Pennsylvania, U.S., Arriving Passenger and Crew Lists, 1798-1962
Search terms: Thomas Jardan, arrived 1846, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
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I’m going to try to match up the other Jardans listed with Jordans I researched in Castletownroche.
It has come to mind that John Jordan (weaver) in Gortroche was listed in Griffith’s in 1851 and therefore could not have been in Philadelphia at the same time.
Griffiths' Valuation Gortroche townland, Ballyhooly parish, County Cork
7 b Occupier David Cotter - carding mill & garden
Immediate lessor John Jordan
That isn't proof that John Jordan was in Gortroche townland. It's only evidence that David Cotter rented a carding mill from him. John Jordan's name isn't in the list of occupiers for Gortroche townland.
Occupations weren't mentioned in Griffiths' Valuation so there's no evidence that the John Jordan listed under Gortroche townland was a weaver.
Mrs Mary Campion was immediate lessor of 3 other holdings on plot 7. She was also immediate lessor of 5 more holdings in Gortroche townland which were occupied by other people, totalling over 60 acres. She occupied another 27 acres of which Richard Aldworth, Esquire was the immediate lessor.
Background information about Griffiths' Valuation:
"Irish Geneaography - Griffiths' Valuation" explains that survey, compilation and publication was a long process.
https://www.irish-geneaography.com/griffiths-valuation-1847-1864.html
https://www.johngrenham.com/browse/retrieve_text.php?text_contentid=68
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Griffiths' Valuation Gortroche townland, Ballyhooly parish, County Cork
7 b Occupier David Cotter - carding mill & garden
Immediate lessor John Jordan
That isn't proof that John Jordan was in Gortroche townland. It's only evidence that David Cotter rented a carding mill from him. John Jordan's name isn't in the list of occupiers for Gortroche townland.
Mrs Mary Campion was immediate lessor of 3 other holdings on plot 7. She was also immediate lessor of 5 more holdings in Gortroche townland which were occupied by other people, totalling over 60 acres. She occupied another 27 acres of which Richard Aldworth, Esquire was the immediate lessor.
Richard O Aldworth, Esquire was an example of an immediate lessor whose home was elsewhere.
Richard Oliver Aldworth (1794-1887) was a Justice of the Peace for County Cork. His homes were Upper Dromore, Mallow and Newmarket Court, in Clonfert civil parish, near Kanturk.
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However, I found a record in a Tenure Book showing John Jordan as occupier of a house and land leased from Mary Campion. In the same record, John Jordan leased a mill house to David Cotter. I found the record in Findmypast.
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"I contacted the church secretary, who provided the years."
Can you again contact the church secretary and find out what other information is on the records....that she/he is not authorised to give you. Be specific. Ask what of these details are on the record that they hold for the JORDAN-O'LEARY marriage, 1855 -
Age, residence, marital status, birthplace of bride.
Age, residence, marital status, birthplace and occupation of groom.
Names of witnesses.
It could be that the record is an index, and only showing names and a year, and nothing else.
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After much pleading, I have obtained a photo of the marriage record of John Jordon and Mary O’Leary. Mary O’Leary’s father was Patrick O’Leary and her mother was Ellen Connor. Patrick may have been the brother of John Jordon’s neighbour, Francis O’Leary, who was from Tipperary. Francis was one of the witnesses at the marriage.
I also see that John’s first wife was Catherine Kenny.
Any help would be appreciated.
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Whoops! Francis O’Leary or Leary was from Killarney (as per death record). I have found Mary O’Leary, born in 1818 in Dortdromakerry, Killarney, Kerry.
I have no further leads for John Jordon.