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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Jayhen6 on Tuesday 25 October 22 17:28 BST (UK)
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Hi, there. I’ve started on a quest to find out where, if at all my great uncle is listed on any memorial in his home town of Farnworth, Bolton. There is great confusion as on one website in Bolton his details are listed as follows:- Fox, Herbert-
Son of Edward Ernest and Margaret Fox, of 18, Clelland Street, Farnworth, Bolton, Lancashire. Enlisted under-age October
1915, 5th Bn., Loyal North Lancashire Regiment.. yet on the CWGC his details are as follows :-
PRIVATE
HERBERT FOX
Service Number: 105303
• Regiment & Unit/Ship
The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
1st Bn.
a Date of Death
Died 29 August 1918
Age 18 years old
• Buried or commemorated at
TERLINCTHUN BRITISH CEMETERY, WIMILLE II. F. 28.
France
Country of Service
United Kingdom
Additional Info
Son of Mr. and Mrs. E. E. Fox, of Farnworth, Bolton, Lancashire.
I’m wondering if someone could please help and search the WW1 service records to confirm which regiment he served with. I’ve attached his photo and I’m convinced the cap badge is that of the Loyal North Regiment.. He isn’t listed on the memorial in Bolton of the Loyal North Regiment nor does he feature on the Liverpool regiment memorial.. so confused and would be very grateful for your assistance in order that Herbert can be remembered.. Many thanks in advance..
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Over 60% of WW1 service records were destroyed in the WW2 blitz. Those that remain are available on the subscription sites but nothing found for Herbert
You appear to have copied/pasted some of your post so you may want to edit it to make it easier to read
No photo attached
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The Medal Roll Index for that service number shows he was awarded the British & Victory medals. He served as a Private in the Liverpool Regiment but the MRI does not record any death
His birth was registered in the December qtr 1899
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Good evening,
He may well have served in both regts. Many soldiers enlisted in one regt and then, because of battle casualties, were moved to another as reinforcements. So he possibly enlisted in the North Lancs, was moved to the Kings. The CWGC would have him in the regt in which he died but medals could be issued as either.
For instance my maternal grandfather enlisted in the Royal Sussex, was then moved to the Northumberland Fusiliers but his medals say Queens regt. Royal Sussex became part of the Queens regt.
John915
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If he enlisted in October 1915 he was underage
Between 1914 - 1916 the minimum age was 19 but in 1916 it was dropped to 18. His birth was registered Dec 1899 so he would not have been 18 until end of 1917
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Thank you so far for all the information and yes he could have served in both regiments. I still need to find him on a memorial or somehow confirm he isn’t on one. A local book was published listing all the fallen soldiers in WW1 from the Farnworth & Kearsley area and he isn’t listed!..
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There are two entries here, so different people?
http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/terlincthun2.htm
(http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/terlincthun2.htm)
FOX HERBERT
United Kingdom Private 105303 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 29/08/1918 Age: 18 II. F. 28.
FOX H
United Kingdom Private 201238Y York and Lancaster Regiment 27/10/1918 VI. D. 21.
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cwgc entry for the Herbert Fox b Farnworth. Parents names correct as per 1901/1911 censuses
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/4025357/herbert-fox/
The MRI for him has no Theatre of War date
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There are two entries here, so different people?
http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/terlincthun2.htm
(http://www.inmemories.com/Cemeteries/terlincthun2.htm)
FOX HERBERT
United Kingdom Private 105303 The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 29/08/1918 Age: 18 II. F. 28.
FOX H
United Kingdom Private 201238Y York and Lancaster Regiment 27/10/1918 VI. D. 21.
Yes, My Great Uncle is the first one.. thank you
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Good evening,
A little research shows that Farnworth does not have it's own war memorial, or not one that's listed anyway. There are several war memorials in Bolton, I have looked at two and he is not on them, Bolton Boys and Smithills Hall Chapel.
The most likely place will require a visit. The main Bolton war memorial is outside of the town hall but has no names inscribed on it. Instead they are recorded on the Bolton Roll of Honour which is kept in the town hall.
John915
Added; After searching further I have found an online version of the roll of honour. Your man should be on page 55 but isn't. However if you put his name in the search box there he is. It may be that he is listed in an addendum somewhere.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rw3/
He is listed as 5th batt Loyal North Regt so should be on their memorial in Bolton. I couldn't find a close up of the names on there.
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Good evening,
A little research shows that Farnworth does not have it's own war memorial, or not one that's listed anyway. There are several war memorials in Bolton, I have looked at two and he is not on them, Bolton Boys and Smithills Hall Chapel.
The most likely place will require a visit. The main Bolton war memorial is outside of the town hall but has no names inscribed on it. Instead they are recorded on the Bolton Roll of Honour which is kept in the town hall.
John915
Added; After searching further I have found an online version of the roll of honour. Your man should be on page 55 but isn't. However if you put his name in the search box there he is. It may be that he is listed in an addendum somewhere.
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01rw3/
He is listed as 5th batt Loyal North Regt so should be on their memorial in Bolton. I couldn't find a close up of the names on there.
Thanks for your efforts. I have made some progress this morning and discovered that Herbert was added to the war memorial in Farnworth after the original nameplates were stolen a few years ago!.. a visit to the local archives has resulted in a copy of his enlistment with the Kings Liverpool regiment but no report on his death. I am told that some parents refused to allow the publication of their loved ones deaths. This has resulted in Herbert being omitted from a book ‘Fallen in the Fight’ written about soldiers from Farnworth & Kearsley who lost their lives in the Great War. This book was compiled from newspaper reports hence the omission. I visited the local archives and was told his service records perished.. hopefully I can track down the war diaries of his regiment for the day he died on 29 August 1918. Many thanks
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Good afternoon,
Just for your interest I have since found this. A complete list of Bolton war memorials which includes all the little known ones in churches, schools, halls and many other places. Quite an extensive list even for a place the size of Bolton. Some of course will only have a few names and many of thise will be repeated on the main memorials.
https://boltonremembers.org/bolton-war-memorials/
John915
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Good afternoon,
Just for your interest I have since found this. A complete list of Bolton war memorials which includes all the little known ones in churches, schools, halls and many other places. Quite an extensive list even for a place the size of Bolton. Some of course will only have a few names and many of thise will be repeated on the main memorials.
https://boltonremembers.org/bolton-war-memorials/
John915
Yes, I visited the archives today and many memorials scattered about the town. Thanks once again for your assistance..
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Sorry for the delay in picking up your Post as I have been away in Liverpool since last Sunday 13th researching King's Liverpool Regt Soldiers.
As stated above your Photo of Herbert never got posted but you obviously found his Army Attestation Burnt papers though you were told there weren't any. But you didn't give us his Army Number 7361 he was under in the 5th Territorial Force Loyal North Lancs when he Enlisted on 12 October 1915 in Bolton
But you appear knowing that he was Born December Quarter 1899 in Bolton Vol 8c page 353 to Mother's Maiden Name Callaghan son of Margaret Callaghan and Edward Ernest Fox of 18 Clelland Farnworth Bolton
and you have calculated he was under age at Enlistment on 12 October 1915
But you appear not to have turned over the Page to see he declared Age 19 and was sent to Oswestry for Training 1915 and 1916 his after Photo you have in Loyal North Lancs Cap Badge
But those 5 pages 4385 to 4390 of 12964 show after 308 days he was Discharged from the Army on 14 August 1916
Probably all this Unknown to his Parents knowledge in my Opinion or where he was.
He was not Transferred to the King's he was Discharged in Oswestry when they discovered his false declaration.
In my Opinion on his way back to Bolton via Train through Liverpool
He went Probably on 15th August 1916 in Liverpool and recruited again
still only 17 still at Enlisted as Pte 105303 Herbert Fox into 1st Btn King's Liverpool Regt
He was trained again in 1916 and went over to France 1917
Medal Cards Do not show a Theatre of War or Date sent Overseas if it was after 30 December 1915 when entitlement to the 1914/15 stopped became qualified for so no need for a Date on any future Medal Card Index
He Died in France of his Wounds on 29 August 1918 after some action in August with the 1st King's
This 2nd Attestation Records must have been in that 60% Blitzed.
There may be more of his Army life on the Devereux Database Touchscreen at the bottom of the King's Liverpool Regt Medal Tower that lists ALL served King's in WW1 its 1st Floor King's Display at the Liverpool Museum of Liverpool Life at the Pier Head
You can't check it online only physical present on that Touchscreen
I wouldn't be there again for a while to look.
There are 4 pages on my Granddad on it and a Photo so worth a visit.
The Soldiers Effects Records show the Army paid his Pay Arrears under 105303 only to August 1916 arrears of
£8:2s on 31 December 1918 sent to his Father Edward Ernest and a War Gratuity of £3 on 4 December 1919 to his Father again.
There is a Pension Record also showing a Dependents Pension weekly amount was awarded to his Mother
His Brother James would have also fought in WW1
It is likely as suggested the Parents didn't want him on any Memorial being drawn up after 31 August 1921 deadline for 1922 Memorials
His Parents probably blamed the Army for not Discharging him again in August 1916 in Liverpool as still being underage to fight.
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ALAMO2008
Many thanks for your informative post. Such details explain a lot and such sad that he lost his life at 18 as did many others who rushed to sign up to serve their country. I’ve got online access to the regiments war diaries and trying to work out when he suffered his fatal injuries.. thank you to everyone who posted..
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Reading just now page 673 of Volume III of the History of the King's Liverpool Regt
The 1st Btn were of the 2nd Division of the VI Corps
The Battle of Albert 21st to 23rd August 1918
The 1st attacked at 11.00 a.m. on 23rd August on the left of the Brigade
Ervillers was in their hands by Midday
Despite very heavy Machine Gun Fire from Mory Copse - Hally Copse Ridge
Heavy Shelling from 2 p.m. experienced
270 other ranks Casualties
Withdrawn 24/25th August
Sent to Clearing station Field Hospital
Where he Died of his Wounds probably on 28th August 1918
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Reading just now page 673 of Volume III of the History of the King's Liverpool Regt
The 1st Btn were of the 2nd Division of the VI Corps
The Battle of Albert 21st to 23rd August 1918
The 1st attacked at 11.00 a.m. on 23rd August on the left of the Brigade
Ervillers was in their hands by Midday
Despite very heavy Machine Gun Fire from Mory Copse - Hally Copse Ridge
Heavy Shelling from 2 p.m. experienced
270 other ranks Casualties
Withdrawn 24/25th August
Sent to Clearing station Field Hospital
Where he Died of his Wounds probably on 28th August 1918
Thanks for that information and yes I would agree that sadly Herbert was fatally wounded during that battle.. regards