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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: brigidmac on Wednesday 26 October 22 21:19 BST (UK)
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I have seen a few higher than expected DNA matches & have a big data base
Followimg paper trail found out that one line descended from a child that was raised be grandparents as their own .so all descendants were a generation closer than recorded on censuses and suggested by thru lines .
This one could be something like that .
A DNA match descended from Annie b1902 daughter of Charles gdaughter of Henry Eden b 1853 comes out on thru lines as half 3c1R
Is a 116cm 5 seg match less than 1 %.chance could be that level
Another descendant of Charles half 3c1R thru daughter Ethel comes out as 40cm3 segs which is also high for that degree of removal .
Henry 1853 is brother of direct ancestor Joseph Eden b1869 on record but could he actually be his father
Or could Joseph be the birth father of great neice Annie ?
The parents of Henry and Joseph are Charles H Eden+ Ann Cheatham
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In 1901 Joseph was a widower
I thought maybe he could have had children with first wife that a sibling had adopted but Annie was born after wife's death
I've never been able to find his first marriage wife's name or any children .
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Charles could be father of josephs son b 1906 but
He emigrated to USA in 1905
His wife Jemima and children ethel.florence Alice and Ann 2 went to join him in 1907
Could Joseph have been Annie's bio father ...that would make more sense ;
the 116cm match
would then be half 2C
If Henry was also father of Joseph it would explain the higher link to Annie's sister Ethel's descendant half 2c1R which fits with 40cm
Match
What does anyone else
theory 2 is that there are some cousin marriages further up the line between CHEATHAM & Henry + Joseph EDEN s grandmother Elizabeth BATERSBY s relations
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Theory 3
If there are twins along the DNA lines would their neices and nephews appear to be same relation as their chlldren
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It's fairly difficult to try and answer this without knowing the exact (official, not theoretical) relationships as well as the generations between people.
Am I correct in assuming that..
* the 116cM and 48cM matches are great-granddaughters of Charles (1879) through Annie (1903) and Ethel respectively, and thereby 3rd gr.granddaughters of Ann Cheatham?
* that you are a 2nd gr.granddaughter of Ann Cheatham through Joseph (1869) ?
* the half-sibling relationship between Joseph and Henry (1853) is well documented? Or was it Ancestry that threw out a possible half-sibling relationship?
If you had other matches (and cM's) with more descendants of Ann Cheatham, it would be easier to calculate a possible theory I think.
TD
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Thank you for your reply
The match is a relative who I'm helping
I have some more information from generation above
Through sisters Ann Cheatham 1828 married Henry Eden +
Elizabeth Cheatham 1838 m Thomas NORRIS
They are all 3rd great grandchildren of Henry
Cheatham 1792 + Elizabeth Battersby
MR. My relative matches AB the great granddaughter of Thomas Norris 1863 by 22cm which is reasonable for 4th cousin
But the other great granddaughter of Thomas Norris MJ is 97cm
MJ & AB 2nd Cousins match by 265 cm which could also fit if they are only half cousins
MJ has shared her match amounts with me for some of the other mutual matches
The half cousin was generated by thru lines from different spellings .thru lines are recalculating due to a tree change
Regarding descendants of Charles EDEN 1829 + Ann Cheatham
The 116 cm match has tiny tree does not show on thrulines but Is gdaughter of Annie EDEN 1903 m Thames so should be 3C 1R if paper trail is followed
The 48cm match CB is 3C2xR on thruline
(2 generations younger than MR) her great grandmother was Ethel Eden1898 m Holdsworth (sister of Annie Thames)
Whose father is Charles eden 1879 nephew of Joseph EDEN 1869
Another 3C 1xR thru Annie + ethels brother William eden comes out at 19cm
There are several thru lines to Ann Cheatham
(& Charles Henry Eden )
That come up between 13cm and 38cm to 3c2R
Thru 2 different children.
And there are matches thru some of her siblings one 4th cousin is 55cm
I'm really sorry I can't put it on a chart . All I can do is take screenshots + try and edit
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That's still pretty confusing ;D
Does the enclosed diagram approximate the relationships within the family? (hope it's visible)
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That's perfect thank you very much
So if Joseph was actually the birth father of Annie eden that would bump the large match up to 2nd C level
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Do you agree with my calculation tree digger .
I did wonder if Joseph was also the father of
One of the Norris girls too
But she doesn't match the highest EDEN DNA match
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That is all mind bogglingly complicated. :P
TreeDigger, your persistence is commendable. Well done.
Not on Ancestry but I have fourth cousin matches three times higher than 22cm, and my daughter estimated as “niece”. ;D My daughter seems to pick up huge amounts of DNA from some ancestors - in some cases similar amounts to myself. I share higher DNA with some of my matches than my father does.
Might you be reading too much into yoir higher than expected DNA matches?
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Just to be sure before hypothesizing things..
MR is a great-granddaughter of Thomas Norris, right? Just like Ab and MJ?
And thanks, Ruskie.
If you read my post about George Haycock on the Staffordshire board, it may explain my pit-bull attitude in these matters ;)
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As an aside..
DNA inheritance actually isn't science but the luck of the draw. It's like your ancestors standing in a room throwing up bags full of colored confetti and their descendants running through the rainbow shower; sheer chance which colored bits will stick, even to siblings.
So yes, there can be a huge discrepancy in inherited DNA.
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I shall have a read of that thread about George Haycock TreeDigger*. ;D
(I like your confetti analogy.)
* all skill and no luck with unravelling that family. Very exciting, and well done!
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I agree that there can be a huge range but even ancestry says the relationship is less than 1percnt likely to be
Tree digger
MR is great great grandson of Ann Cheatham
MJ + AB descend from her sister Elizabeth
At the same level so are 4th cousins on paper but 97cm is too much
Ann Cheatham is ggreat grandmother to MRs father + Ethel + Annie EDEN
I believe high match is child of Annie eden so 3rd cousin to MR
And the 40cm is a great grandchild of Ethel
3C 2X R
The younger generations are testing now !
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Thanks for your patience. I question the results because I've never seen such high discrepancy
and have checked the details of paper trail to these matches
And compared with other 3-4th cousin matches in these families
+ Because I know that family adoptions were common in this Lancashire town
A relative told how her aunt had been adopted and had wanted to adopt her because her widowed mother had to work .
I have found the details of Joseph Eden's first wife she was jean HILTON 1868 - 1895
They married in 1891 in Leigh Lancashire but I don't know if they did have children who could have been adopted .
Joseph didn't marry (Amelia ROBERTS) til 1905
In 1901 he was lodging with the Norris family
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I agree that there can be a huge range but even ancestry says the relationship is less than 1percnt likely to be
Tree digger
MR is great great grandson of Ann Cheatham
MJ + AB descend from her sister Elizabeth
At the same level so are 4th cousins on paper but 97cm is too much
Hi,
I think you can actually read too much into it. Dna is not shared equally the further you go outside that parent child relationship. I share very little with some relatives and very high with others.
Regarding your 97cm is too much for 4th cousins- I have a proven 4th cousin who is 92cm to me.
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Ancestry puts my 92cm at 1% chance of him being My 4th cousin, while DNA painter put it much higher at 8% chance. I really tend not to take much notice of ancestry's stats, they can be way off with quite a few of my rellies at the best of times ( your 97cm, DNA painter puts it at 7% of being a 4th cousin not 1%).
Interestingly , my child does not share anything at all on ancestry with this same 4th cousin ( ancestry hasn't picked it up in his results for some odd reason) - but on my heritage ( which is an ancestry upload kit) my child does actually share with him, but by only 18cm and is in the nice high predicatable range of 59% with a 4th cousin once removed , unlike me with my 92cm to him. Dna is not shared equally.
I also share with the uncle of the same said 4th cousin, who is his father's brother ( my third cousin once removed ) at 128cm, which again is high and doesn't quite fit in with ancestry's so called probabilities. (I think that again falls within 1% chance with Ancestry predictions, while DNA painter put it a lot higher chance at 10%)
I wouldn't write off 97 being too high for 4th cousins, as it is definitely not too high.
Kind regards
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@Briget - Like Cell said (and DNA Painter has wonderful tools like 'shared centimorgans' and 'What are The Odds' or WATO; I use them as well) the 97cM relationship is not common but not implausible. Especially since MR is from the Ann Cheatham line.
There are different scenarios possible within this family of who fathered who, but I wouldn't question paternity solely based on the shared cM's. If there are no red flags i.e. changing/implausible birth dates or names on birth/wedding certificates, you should stick to Occam's Razor theory: the simplest explanation is usually the most likely.
@Ruskie - Thanks! That one did, indeed, involve smoking brain cells and analyzing loads & loads of researched material in order to stick the puzzle piece in its correct position.
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I got the impression you were (rightly) fairly pleased with yourself TreeDigger. ;D A very satisfying result.
Brigid, have the people in question uploaded their raw data to other sites for clarification and comparison of cms to Ancestry (they can vary). Also they may find other DNA matches come to light. Other sites have some helpful tools which may help.
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I was, indeed, quite chuffed, Ruskie 8)
Will now focus on George's father, as apparently he isn't quite who he seems either. I think our family's motto should be 'There Be Bastards' *groan*
@Brigid - Ruskie's suggestion of uploading the raw data to other sites is an excellent one. If you're new to DNA I'd forego GedMatch for now , but definitely try with the other 'big name' sites. And if you need help analyzing more results, just holler. I've become fond of puzzles.
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Thanks tree digger cell and ruskie for your examples and comments .
I do have other high examples that can be explained by matches thru more than one line
There are descendants thru 5 Cheatham siblings born 1830 s in Lancashire
to compare amounts ..
I will read the George Haycock story too .
Ruskie I'm not sure if any of them has downloaded raw data . I don't have access to that .
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Thanks tree digger
I'm a big fan of solving mysteries too
This is not my own DNA but a relative and I was fascinated by the number of links to salt lake city as well as these diversities
I manage my mother maternal cousin and paternal late aunts DNA too and have access to a second cousin and a related nadoptees DNA results and trees examples of second marriages. single mothers adoptees and the DNA of over 100cm matches always makes sense and fits with ancestry estimates although occasionally a younger generation has higher amounts
My nephew has now tested I don't manage his account but we now have 3 generations to compare .
MR Is a 3rd cousin on my maternal side but does not know birth father ..!
Have narrowed down grandparent on my side . The Eden cheathams are on the other side
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OK, so you are looking for an unknown birth father!
And he is supposed to be on the Cheatham side?
TD
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Btw, my fascination with these types of puzzles stems from the fact that I, myself, am one of those 'unfortunate accidents' that apparently are an embarrassment to certain families. In 1987 I decided to track down my own birth father. I had his name (fortunately quite an unusual one) and a 1964 address. It took me three weeks to find him.
He was not amused.
Eh.. 8)
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Btw, my fascination with these types of puzzles stems from the fact that I, myself, am one of those 'unfortunate accidents' that apparently are an embarrassment to certain families. In 1987 I decided to track down my own birth father. I had his name (fortunately quite an unusual one) and a 1964 address. It took me three weeks to find him.
He was not amused.
Eh.. 8)
:o
Wow!
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Who is father of who does indeed have various possibilities .
MR is definitely descended from Joseph Eden 1869 his highest match is 1st cousin level plus a child + 2 grandchildren same family . wife Amelia ROBERTS connects at correct levels to my mother her cousin 2nd C + 3rd cousin we don't match other Eden's or Cheatham lines
When I added Ann Cheatham followed up to her parents and grandparents
14 thru lines appeared thru her parents Henry Cheatham 1792 + Elizabeth Battersby 1796 thru 5 different children
Plus lots of American matches without trees
After adding father Thomas Battersby 1772
167 thru lines appeared obviously I haven't checked them all yet
But added a few generations to each line that I could find on bmd or census
151 thru lines were to Margaret Battersby 1910 Elizabeth's sister.
Not as surprising as it sounds
She had 9 children with John KAY
And her eldest son had 10 children with first wife and at least 2 with his second
Daughter Martha 1832 had 12 children with Edward NEWTON 1842
Two of their grandchildren married each other .( 1st cousin marriage )
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@ Ruskie - Yeah, that was quite something. I wonder whether he knew he had simply been following a family tradition ;)
@ Bridgid - Is MR's descent confirmed by sources? Or is that via his mom's side? (in which case she probably knows best)
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Hi tree digger
Purely DNA .but enough triangulations and elimination thru older generations who have tested .
Some descendants who connect to the Eden Roberts family so living stories .1 ran a children's home !
The Mother only gave a first name a location + that he is deceased .
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Just found that Elizabeth A + Margaret eliz BATTERSBY s mother was also a CHEATHAM
So may have been related to her son in law
Henry CHEATHAM 1792
Elizabeth A s husband
If in every other generation there are sets of brothers marrying pairs of sisters
.cousin marriages
Or twins
I expect cm results would be above average .
But you could only see the size of difference in recent generations
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Fun fact: calculating hypotheses in the previously mentioned DNA Painter WTO tool gives good odds for Joseph being the ancestor of MR. But strangely enough much higher scores were given for MR to actually descend from Elizabeth, not Ann.
Now, these scores are just a (often very good) indication where to look in a family tree, and can be ruled out when genealogy indicates a hypothesis just isn't possible.But thought you should know.
Also, thank you for the comment wrt George Haycock on the Staffordshire forum ;)
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That's really interesting
I can't rule out that possibility with this lot !
Except that the only scenario I can imagined MR wouldn't match the Eden's unless his father had had an affair with his sister in law but brought up the baby himself
That would certainly have caused some family tensions .
Two of my mum's highest matches with no names in common had been brought up by birth father and a sibling was adopted .the mystery was solved by a photo they both shared of the birth mother ( their respective grandmother's grandmother ) evidence can come from unexpected places .
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The fact that thru lines go thru 3 of Ann Cheatham s children and only 1 of Elizabeths
would be reassuring that the line was correct
If there weren't also thru lines to 3 of their brother Joseph's children
I.ll take a closer look at him ( 4th cousins with 3 segments at 19cm 28cm + 32cm )
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UPDATE
All of MRs lines on paternal side had higher than average matches
+ All highest known ones had links to Cheatham s BATTERSBY or EDEN
I've worked out some of the other 100cm plus connections
The inevitable conclusion is that MR s birth father is a generation higher than he thought so he is actually a grandson not great grandson of Joseph Eden 1869
There are 2 known sons Joseph b 1906 and Abiah Eden b 1910 is it likely there would be a younger child " George " from both parents but brought up by another family .
The thru lines are rearranging but majority of matches including to me .my nephew my cousin my mother + her cousin now fit in the norms
The one that doesn't is the 97cm match (7 segments)which on paper is 3c1R
But if as I suspect Joseph eden is the biogical father of Elizabeth NORRIS b 1889 this would make sense.
The match would then be half 1c1r
Joseph was unmarried age 20 when Elizabeth was conceived .
He stayed close + in 1901 was lodging with his cousin Thomas NORRIS who married Mary Jane NORRIS (Related) in jan Q of 1889
Now I need to check what difference that makes in the high EDEN match thru Annie
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Recalculation of the 116 match
On paper they would be 2c1R
But if Joseph is birth father of his nephews child Ann EDEN b 1903 they would be half cousins 1 xR
Both possibilities are within this DNA range
+ Both are possible .
Tho my first Idea that Annie could be an adopted child from Joseph's first marriage is now highly improbable as full cousins once removed would be higher .
I'm much happier about these DNA ranges now