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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cheshire => England => Cheshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: timmis1 on Thursday 27 October 22 09:30 BST (UK)
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Richard Smith born 1750? +/- 5 buried 1820 Bidston (Confirmed by the Cheshire Parish Project Register Database (CPPRD)) married to Ann/Nancy Linacre 1775 Bidston (Confirmed by the (CPPRD) one witness was a John Smith (confirmed by CPPRD) possibly his father.
One of Richard`s daughters Betty was baptized 1779 (confirmed by CPRD) and the names of Richard`s parents were given as John & Mary as additional information, confirmation that his father was John.
However I cannot find a suitable marriage for a John Smith & Mary around a suitable time probably a few years +/- 1750 however I have not been able to find the baptism of Richard Smith or his siblings either.
I am presuming he would have not have had a trade (he signs the marriage register for his son Richard with a X) however his grand son William Smith born 1783 (confirmed by CPPRD) lists himself as a farmer in the 1841 census, so perhaps John Smith was an agricultural labourer?
There are some entries on family history trees on Ancestry for marriages of John Smith to a Mary, one for instance to a Mary Moss, one tree even has John marrying her twice in his lifetime.
However there is no supporting documentation to prove any of them.
Does anyone have any ideas as to where I could find a suitable marriage for a John Smith & a Mary?
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If the family followed the English naming pattern (Not all did), I would expect Richards father to be William and Nancy’s Henry, however has they had more than one John, that might prove to be the exception to the rule. I realise you may have most of below but it might help others?
Richard Smith Marriage 19 September 1775 Bidstone, CheshireSpouse: Nancy Linacer
Baptisms Bidstone.
Mother NANCY: William 1783, Henry 1885, Nancy 1789, John 1788 & 1791,
Mother ANN: Mary 1776, Peggy 1777, Betty 1779, Kitty 1781.
This marriage 1792, so I have ignored later baptisms at Bidstone
Richard Smith Marriage Notice 10 September 1792 Cheshire Spouse Ann Noble
Richd. Smith Burial 18 October 1820 Bidstone, Cheshire Birth 1755 (No age)
Nancy Linacre buried 16 October 1842 age 88
1841 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7M1-C61
1841 – Nancy & John? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7M1-4C7
Colin
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Unfortunately the Cheshire Parish Register Database does not cover the whole of Cheshire. (although it is free, which is good!) FindMyPast is usually better than Ancestry for Cheshire Records - starting by looking for Richard Smith baptised within 5 years of 1750 has 25 results, reducing to 10 if you specify father as John. (Some parishes may not record the mother's name) From the position of Bidston I would normally suggest you check Lancashire as well, but it may be a bit early for frequent traffic across the Mersey.
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No births for a Richard Smith, father William or Henry in Cheshire in the period but a John Smith had the following children baptised Bebington 4 miles from Bidston, sadly no mother noted.
Catherine Smith 29 Nov 1740 Ann 22 Jan 1743 Mary 30 Jul 1746 & 25 Jul 1751, John 15 Jul 1753 & Richard 19 June 1755.
Needless to say there are a number of Marriages in the County, including several of them to a Mary.
From the children’s names a fair assumption is that John first married Catherine, below and given the gap 1846-1851 he married Mary below?
John Smith
Marriage Date: 12 Feb 1739
Marriage Place: Bebington, Cheshire
Spouse: Catherine Inglefield
John Smith
Spouse Mary Moss
Marriage 29 Oct 1750 Bebington, Cheshire
Colin
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Catherine Smith
Burial 27 September 1747
Bebington, Cheshire
Spouse John Smith
Colin
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the information that`s great, I did have some of it.
With respect to the marriages are these from find my past?
Sue
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the information that`s great, I did have some of it.
With respect to the marriages are these from find my past?
Sue
The marriages were on family search and the baptisms on Ancestry.
It would be best to check on FindMyPast as suggested in an earlier post.
Regards Colin
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Hi Colin
Sorry I do not have find my past.
With respect to ancestry would the baptisms be from the Bishop Transcripts?
Sue
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The baptisms on Ancestry are from Cheshire, England, Select Bishop's Transcripts, 1576-1933
A Samuel Smith & Peter Smith had children baptised Bebington in the same period.
The baptisms of John and Samuels children are also on Family Search.
I came across these earlier today below?
Catherine Inglefield Christening 2 December 1716 Bebington, Cheshire. Parents William Inglefield
This Mary would only be about 16, unless she was born a little earlier, if she was the one married to John
Mary Moss Christening 25 August 1734 Frodsham, Cheshire Parents Richard Moss
Colin
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Thanks for that Colin, is Frodsham very far from Barnston & Bidston?
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https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CHS/Frodsham
Bebington, Cheshire is 14 miles NW of Frodsham, Cheshire
Barnston, Cheshire is 16 miles W of Frodsham, Cheshire
Bidston, Cheshire is 18 miles NW of Frodsham, Cheshire
Colin
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Its a difficult one, she is so young and from relatively far away. John would have been very much older.
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Hi Colin
Last night I revisited the Smith part of my family tree, and from the research you did on my question above you discovered two possible marriages for John Smith.
The first to Catherine Inglefield 1739 and the second to Mary Moss 1750.
As I recall the sources for the marriages where family search.
I had a quick look and there appeared to be not mention of any parents for any of the spouses.
Would you agree, have I got that right?
As I would like to go back a generation from John Smith, I thought looking at the marriage records may help ie they would give the father of the spouses or they could have acted as a witness.
If I have looked at the correct records and there are no relatives on the records for these two marriages, I may request from the Chehsire Archives a copy of their entries for these weddings from the parish records, hoping that a parent is on their records.
Uness you have any better ideas.
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It would be highly unusual to find the names of any parents or witnesses in marriage entries at this point in time.
There is no point contacting Cheshire archives.
The images are on findmypast.
Both of these marriages in the actual register just give the bride and grooms' names.
They are both by publication of banns - ie , not by licence, which possibly may have given some more information about them, although still very unlikely to give the name of the father of the groom.
Catherine Smith was buried 27th Sept 1747 at Bebbington, "wife of John Smith of Lower Bebington".
There are several burials for 'John Smith' which could be him, none of which mention 'Lower Bebington'.
BUT, a Mary Smith was buried 16th Jan 1776 at Bebingotn, 'wife of John Smith of Storton'.
Storton is just a couple of miles west of Bebington.
John Smith was then buried at Bebington 14th Oct 1780 'of Storton'.
No ages given in any of these burials.
Interestingly, on the same day as Mary Smith was buried, 16th Jan 1776, a John Smith was married at Bebington.
He married Ellen Langley. He was of Babington, and she of Great Neston. It was by banns - the dates given as 31st Dec 1775, and the 7th and 14th of Jan 1776, so these were before the death of Mary.
Possibly this was John's son John born in 1753.
Even by this date, there are no parents' names given in the marriage register.
A bit odd he should get married on the same day as they buried his mother though!
Perhaps as they had had the banns read before she died, they thought they should go through with it anyway.
I see a Mary Smith was baptised, (just 7 months after the marriage), on 18th Aug 1776 at Bebington. Father John Smith of Storton. No mother's name given. Luckily the entry in the actual register says he is 'John Smith junior'.
24th Nov 1782, baptism of Lydia Smith, daughter of John Smith of Storton.
So the burial of the John Smith in 1780, must have been the elder John Smith.
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Hi Goldie
Thanks for your response, sorry I couldn`t respond earlier.
As with much of my family history the Smith side do give me a headache.
However I am unsure mine are from Bebbington, but I have sure that I have ancestors who lived in Barnston Common & Moreton ie Johnathan Smith, William Smith & Richard Smith, who I have mentioned before on this forum.
But I am unsure about any coming from Storton.
I have been able to get back to a John & Mary Smith who I found mentioned as grandparents at the Christening of a Betty Smith(born 1779) the daughter of Richard Smith and Ann Linacre from the Cheshire Parish Register Project and this was at Bidston, but before that I am unsure where they have come from.
I may have been casting the net to far to Bebbington.
Sue
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Bidston to Bebbington is not very far at all - about 5/6 miles 'as the crow flies'.
Google maps give it as 9 miles by road, but goes a long curved way round - obviously on today's roads.
At the time period you are looking at, there would no doubt have been other pathways and tracks which may have been more direct.
I see 'Barnston Common' you mention is now 'Whitfield Common' at Barnston.
This is only 2 miles from Storton.
Our ancestors did move around the countryside - especially if they were labourers and needed to find work, or came from big families, which meant they had to find new places to live.
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Thank you very much Goldie
I did later have a look on find my past at the possible marriages of John to Catherine & Mary on Find my past, they are indeed register entries. ( I found out that you can look at one or two things for free on the Cheshire Archives website using find my past)
Yes I am now aware that at around the time I am looking at ie early to mid 1700s there weren`t really entries for parents of the spouses unless by license.
Which obviously makes the whole search for previous generations more onerous.
You can tell I have not got very far back with my family trees to not be too aware of this.
I think what I need to do is get a map that shows all the villages around Barnston to give me a better idea of the possibilities of who could have met up with who and ended up in a nearby village.
I do get your point about people moving around in those days, well at least in the locality.
With respect to John Snr, I thought he had died in Bidston in 1758.
I know things will not be straightforward with a name like Smith.
Sue
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Yes an actual map is a really good idea Sue.
Google maps is fine, but it would be easier to get a feel for all the places if you had one in front of you.
People didn't just move locally either.
My paternal family lived just further east in Cheshire, in Macclesfield Forest, for several generations, when it was not the 'forest' it is today, but a hunting forest owned by the Earls of Derby, which included farmsteads, where they grew corn and raised cattle etc.
I hit a brickwall for many, many years with them at the end of the 1600s and thought I would never find them and that that line would end there.
After a long time, (probably 30 years!), I saw a chance hint on one of the genealogy sites. I did a lot of digging and found evidence that they had actually moved north over the Cheshire border from Staffordshire! The son of the family had taken a lease on some land in Macclesfield Forest - he was married with a couple of small children and his father was still farming the family farm in Staffordshire. Obviously time to leave home find his own patch.
So always look carefully at things you might find further afield than you had first thought.
Good luck. 'John Smith' must be very difficult to try and trace!
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Hi Goldie
I have only been doing family history for about 10 years and I have to admit that I paid for a researcher to help me out with the Smith side of my family, however the pennies only stretch so far and now I am back on my own and not really getting very far.
But as you say some times you can come across things by accident that lead you back another generation or at least link things up.
Thanks for your help.
sue
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I must have missed this post earlier.
There are 218 trees on Ancestry with Betty Smith, all but a few of which are incorrect. Most have her birth on 13th August 1779 and death on 29th August 1779, together with a few showing her birth and no further record.
She is actually my 4 x great grandmother who married William Jones on 10th February 1800 in Woodchurch as Elizabeth Smith. She was either Betty or Elizabeth on the baptisms of her children. Other trees are incorrect by having William Jones marrying Elizabeth/Betty Washington.
The record of 1779 actually reads: born on 13th August and baptised on 29th August.
I have 26 DNA matches with descendants of her parents, Richard Smith and Nancy Linacre.
I have not come to a firm conclusion about John and Mary, although most trees have Mary Moss.
David
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DCB that`s really interesting.
As I recall you have posted before.
Did you manage to get past John Smith, ie John Smith who may have married Mary Moss?
Sue
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John marrying Mary Moss is a possibility, but I am not sure how to prove it, and there are other options.
Something else on the trees that I can't be certain about is the parentage of Nancy Linacre. The baptism of Betty also gives her mother as the daughter of Daniel and Margaret. The trees tend to give Margaret as Kenney, with a marriage in 1750, but I can't find one.
However I did find a marriage of Daniel Linigar, of Weaverham, to Margaret Harrison, of Great Budworth, in 1751 at Weaverham.
Unfortunately, I can't find a baptism for Nancy.
Regards,
David
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Hi DCB
There is an entry for a marriage of a John Smith to a Mary Moss 1750 Bebington on Find my Past, but I don`t think that is what you mean by proof, would you mean a will or something similar?
The Cheshire Parish records are very good at occasionally providing details of grandparents at baptisms as already mentioned for your Betty, however they don`t seemed to have done this for any of John & Mary`s children, only Richard & Nancy`s.
I am very wary of using other people`s trees and they don`t always provide rock solid evidence.
Sue
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Hi Sue,
I have been looking through the details of Richard Smith and feel more certain that he was the son of John and Mary Moss.
Most of the trees have John's death in Bidston on 15th August 1758. Looking at the images, it was Henry Smith who was buried on that date.
They also have Richard born/baptised in Bidston on 20th February 1749, but nothing on the images.
Richard's burial has his birth year as 1755, which ties in with a baptism in Bebington on 12th June 1755, son of John but no mother's name.
There are possible siblings: Mary 1751 and John 1753
I will keep searching to see if I can find anything else.
David
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Thank you David
Yes that line of reasoning sounds sensible in that Richard was born in 1755.
The siblings would be named after their father & mother I presume.
I hope that you find something, as I am not coming up with anything.
Will look forward to your future posts.
Sue
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Hello Sue, David, and others,
I too am descended from this Richard Smith and Ann (Nancy) Linacre. I have struggled researching the Smith side in particular, but would be glad to share you what conclusions I have reached, at least.
Richard Smith was undoubtedly the one born in 1755 in Lower Bebington to John Smith and his wife Mary. This is supported by the baptismal record of his child Betty, as you've noted, and also his age (65) upon his death in 1820. He died in Moreton in the parish of Bidston, which along with other facts I shall discuss, is an indication he was related to the Smith family of that place. Also note that there's a Richard Smith born to Thomas Smith and his wife Martha, who in 1785 married Martha Linacre, a younger sister of Ann (Nancy) Linacre, which suggests the two Richard Smith's may well be cousins.
John Smith, father of our Richard, was married twice. First to Catherine Inglefield (who was born 1716 in Bebington) in 1740 [N.S.], and they had three daughters Catherine, Ann, and Mary. John's wife Catherine then died in 1747, as you've noted. Described as "of Lower Bebington".
John Smith remarried to Mary Moss in 1750, but this is where every tree I've seen bar one goes wrong, in my view. As far as I can ascertain, Mary Moss was the widow of Thomas Moss of Tranmere in Bebington parish, who had died earlier that same year. They had married in 1736 [N.S.] by license, and her maiden name was Yearsley. Therefore we should say that John Smith married Mary Yearsley in 1750, and Mary was born 1704 in Higher Bebington. The spanner this throws in the works is that John Smith and Mary had further children Mary, John, and Richard, the last being our ancestor Richard born 1755. This puts Mary Yearsley at 50 going on 51 when she gave birth to Richard. While this appears rather unlikely, the sum of evidence for me points to it being the case, especially considering that John lived until 1780 and Mary until 1776 without producing any more children. Furthermore, there is no other record for a burial or remarriage of Mary Moss the widow of Thomas.
Returning to John Smith, the question of his parentage is particularly tricky. There is no baptism record for a John Smith in Bebington, Bidstone, or even casting the net over a 10 mile radius, in the relevant time period (which liberally would be 1690-1723). However, I have some strong suspicions that he was related to the Smith family of Moreton, based on the following facts.
- Our Richard Smith had sons named William, Henry, John, John, Daniel, Richard (in that order). The name Henry in particular has no clear precedent in either Richard's mother's family or in Richard's wife's family, which suggests it may have been his father's name.
- There is a Henry Smith of Oxton in Woodchurch parish (sailor) who married a Mary Stanley of Storeton in Bebington, in the city of Chester (St. Michael and Olave) in 1721, by licence. The place of marriage is curious – perhaps one of their families did not approve? This Henry Smith seems to have been born in Moreton in 1698 to another Henry Smith, but was living in nearby Oxton by this point.
- I've found two distant DNA matches who descend from Jane Smith, who was born in 1722 in Storeton to the above Henry Smith and Mary Stanley. Storeton is notable as the place where our John Smith and his wife Mary later died, having previously lived in Lower Bebington. It's not at all clear what became of this family after, though it's possible Henry Smith and his wife Mary are the ones buried 1758 in Moreton, within a few months of each other. After Jane, there are no further records of baptisms of children.
- The Richard Smith who married Martha Linacre was the son of Thomas Smith of Moreton, himself born 1723 in Moreton, the illegitimate son of another Thomas Smith of Moreton and Alice Shaw of Birkenhead. This puts his roots clearly in Moreton, and could connect our Richard Smith with Moreton too. After all, Richard married a woman (Ann Linacre) from Moreton, and the family settled there.
I hope this is of some help to you, or at least food for thought. I'd certainly be interested if you have any more ideas about where and when John Smith may have been baptised.
Alex
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I now have 39 DNA matches to descendants of Richard and Nancy, including two who have Jane Smith, b 1722, on their trees. However, they are not direct descendants.
Would it be possible to give the links to the two which you have, please? It would be interesting to see if I have a match.
Many thanks,
David
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I now have 39 DNA matches to descendants of Richard and Nancy, including two who have Jane Smith, b 1722, on their trees. However, they are not direct descendants.
Would it be possible to give the links to the two which you have, please? It would be interesting to see if I have a match.
Many thanks,
David
Hi David,
The two DNA matches I have on Ancestry.com are 'arthurcoyle' and 'trinicoor'. They are descended via different grandchildren (Stanley and Jane Calveley) of Robert Calveley (b. 1725 in Thornton le Moors) and Jane Smith (b. 1722 in Storeton p. Bebington). You may also want to put the surname 'Calveley' into the search box and see what matches come up. As far as I can tell, I have no relation to the Calveley or Perry families, which are not from the Bebington/Bidston area. (Stanley Calveley, son of Robert and Jane, married Margaret Perry.)
Note that Jane Smith of Storeton was first married to William Wills at Bebington on 13 Feb 1746/7 (by licence), but William was buried 26 Feb 1752 at Neston, and Jane Wills was remarried to Robert Calveley on 20 Nov 1752 at Neston (again by licence).
Do please let me know if you find any DNA matches who are direct descendants of Jane Smith and Robert Calveley.
Alex
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I should add: one thing I find curious is that both of Jane Smith's marriages were by licence, as was her father Henry's marriage to Mary Stanley (at Chester!). This was common practice among non-conformists, though there were other reasons too. Jane was baptised of course, but no further children – it was also common practice for some non-conformists to baptise the eldest child (especially son) in the local parish church, to increase his prospects in life, but not subsequent children.
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I can't seem to find the trees with your two matches. It it possible to give a direct link like the ones below?
These are my two matches, which I looked at again, and they do have links to Jane Willis Smith, although different. They also show Robert Calveley as sibling, rather than spouse.
The first one: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/100302863/family?cfpid=172016727641
The second one has two different Robert Calveleys and, like the above, as a sibling of Jane Willis Smith:-
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/102421508/family?cfpid=202296915381
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/102421508/family?cfpid=202242681201
I have quite a few ancestors or relatives who were married by licence. Mostly, it was because they lived in different towns or villages, and perhaps wanted to make sure that the preparations were sorted. The only one that was different, was by a mariner and I noticed that Thomas Moss was a mariner.
David
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Good to know. The number of errors in Ancestry.com trees is frankly very high on average, and no doubt we can put mistakes like Robert Calveley being the son of Henry Smith down to carelessness. Rather, he was a son-in-law, and the original documents make this clear.
Here are the trees for the two matches I mentioned.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/184906032?cfpid=342420780799&dtid=100
This only extends to a Clayton-Millington couple, but if you do a search among public trees, it becomes clear that Robert Calveley & Jane Smith (Wills, Calverley) are ancestors to Annie Millington. e.g. https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/24172163/family?cfpid=1701839931
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/75951218/family/pedigree?cfpid=46331980070
This one goes back further, though again stops a little short of Jane Smith herself.
Anyway, I've been doing some more research the last day or so, and a picture of the Smith families in this area is starting to emerge. The commonly repeated forenames amongst the different families in the different villages had me suspecting that many of them were (distantly) related, and that seems to be the case. As I believe another member of this forum previously commented, farm labourers would have moved around a fair bit in search of work, and that very much seems to be the case with the Smith's. Indeed, some are attested as 'labourers' in the parish records. A few were mariners, which was probably a natural choice of career for sons of labourers or younger sons of yeomen and husbandmen.
In fact, I've now built out a little tree for the other Richard Smith (the one who married Martha Linacre), thanks to a will his grandfather Thomas left, and closer analysis of the parish records. I've also more tentatively built out a tree for our Richard Smith. The families of both Richard's seemed to have moved around quite a bit, even over the course of one man's life... Bebington/Storeton, Heswall, Raby, Moreton, and most distantly West Kirby! Despite the common names, though, I think I can paint a convincing picture of their movements over time. I don't have time right now, but happy to lay this out in a future post, if you're interested – maybe tonight or tomorrow.
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Thank you for the links, although none of them were a match for me.
Is the will that of Thomas Smith who died in 1783 and published in 1785?
David
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Hi alexreg
I haven`t used Roots Chat since my last entry which feels like a long time ago, so I am now a but rusty with using it, so I apologise if I make some mistakes.
I have just been altered via e-mail to your post.
I am quite interested Alex in what you have found could you send me the trees that you have made?
Sue
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Hi David & Sue,
I hope you had a nice Christmas. I've got some time now, so I'll write up my thoughts here, though I warn you in advance that it may be a lot to digest at once!
David – yes, that's the will I was referring to. It seems safe to conclude that our John Smith cannot be the son of this Thomas, since John was buried 24 Oct 1780, and Thomas wrote his will on 15 Sep 1781, in which he bequeaths to his son John among others. I believe that this Thomas Smith was born 1704 in Caldy par. West Kirby and married Margaret Langley 1731 at Heswall church. They lived in Gayton par. Heswall and had several children, including Thomas b. 1734. The wife Margaret died in 1745, and Thomas senior remarried to Sue Ciknes at Bidston church. Sue apparently only died in 1790, aged 100! Anyway, Thomas, Sue, and his children from his previous marriage to Margaret (he had none with his second wife) seemed to have lived in Moreton par. Bidston from then onwards, until Thomas's death in 1783. Thomas died aged ~76, so this lends extra support to the idea he was the one born in 1704. Since he's described as a labourer in earlier records but a yeoman in his will, it looks like he worked his way up in the world, perhaps thanks to his second marriage, after moving around quite a lot as a day labourer for much of his career. Now, Thomas's son Thomas junior (b. 1734) married Martha Woodward at Bidston church in 1761, and they had a son Richard born 1764 in Moreton. That's the Richard Smith who married Martha Linacre in 1785 at Bidston church, so not our Richard – though as I mentioned before, the identical name, residence, and their wives having the same surname certainly hints at a relation.
Now to our ancestor Richard Smith, the one born 1755, son of John Smith and Mary (Yearsley) of Moreton... I've pored over the records trying to find more about the father John Smith, and I think I've arrived at a likely theory, although I can't be 100% sure. There is no doubt this John died 1780 at Storeton par. Bebington, following his wife Mary's death there in 1776. As for his birth, I've found a 1716 baptism record of Heswall parish, for John son of Robert Smith. By date alone this would make sense, since John's first wife Catherine Inglefield was born 1716, although his second Mary Yearly was evidently older, born 1704. Robert Smith was married to Margery Holt – they wed 1715 at Heswall church, and it seems Robert was a shepherd. Robert died young in 1729, and Margery remarried to John Ashe in 1733. Robert and Mergy's children, in order, were: John (b. 1716), Samuel (b. 1718), James (b. 1720), and Richard (b. 1724). James seems to have married Alice Woodcock in 1748 at Bebington church, and may be the same James Smith who died in Bebington in 1796, though records for this couple are sketchy after 1755 (baptism of their 2nd child). I've not had any luck tracing the lives of Samuel and Richard Smith, however. The Samuel Smith who married Ann Scarisbrook (or Scarsbrick) in 1742 at Great Neston church was most likely another Samuel Smith, also born 1718 (in Bebington rather than Haswell) to Peter Smith. I say this because he named his eldest son Peter. All the same, at least the marriage and children of James Smith seem to place him in Bebington during the same period as his elder brother John, despite both being born in Heswall – that's encouraging, to me. As is the fact another brother was named Richard, although I should say that John's such Richard (b. 1755) might just as well have been named after his mother's father, Richard Yearsley.
Finally, we have a potential link between the ancestral lines of these two Richard Smiths, going back to West Kirby, but also with both families residing in Heswall and then Moreton at the same approximate time. I mentioned Thomas Smith senior was born 1704 in Caldy par. West Kirby, son of another John Smith. Thomas's siblings were Margaret (1697), John junior (1699), Samuel (1702), and Joseph (1706). John junior married Ann Brown of Heswall in 1722/3, and it's explicitly written that he was of West Kirby. So here we have two links of this Smith family of West Kirby to Heswall. As for a possible brother Robert, this is where things get especially tricky – the parish records of West Kirby are patchy during the early years (even up to the mid 1700s). There was a Robert Smith son of John baptised 1680 at West Kirby church, but it's not clear if his father John is the same father as Thomas born 1704, perhaps from different mothers. FamilySearch has transcriptions but not the original images for West Kirby burials (while FindMyPast doesn't have anything for the burials I'm afraid). To me, it's telling that a Margaret Smith (no parents or spouse given) was buried 03 Apr 1695, and a John Smith subsequently married Mary Young in 16 Jan 1695/6. So, my guess is that Robert Smith b. 1680 and Thomas Smith b. 1704 were indeed brothers, albeit the former by the first wife Margaret, the latter by the second wife Mary Young. That would make the two aforementioned Richard Smith's second cousins, while their wives Nancy and Martha Linacre were first cousins (daughters of Daniel and Thomas Linacre respectively, both of Great Meols par. West Kirby).
That's more than enough for now. Of course, I'd be glad to hear either of your thoughts on the above. Perhaps you can even expand on it, with a bit of luck.
Alex
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Hi again,
I just made an interesting discovery on the Linacre side of the family, in case you're curious. As we know, Ann/Nancy Linacre (wife of our Richard Smith) was born around 1754, likely in Great Meols par. West Kirby, though she and her parents later moved to Moreton par. Biston. We know from Richard & Nancy's child's baptism record (Betty Smith, 1779) that Ann/Nancy's parents were Daniel Linacre and his wife Margaret.
The problem is that the West Kirby parish records are very patchy, as I mentioned. Checking FindMyPast and FamilySearch, it seems only these years are present (between the originals and bishop's transcripts).
Baptisms: 1561-1631, 1636, 1666-1667, 1669, 1671-1686, 1690-1732, 1734-1738, 1741-1743, 1747-1752, 1754-1964
Marriages: 1561-1631, 1636, 1666-1667, 1669, 1671-1686, 1690-1732, 1734-1738, 1741-1743, 1747-1752, 1754-1861
Burials: 1561-1631, 1636, 1666-1667, 1669, 1671-1686, 1690-1732, 1734-39, 1742-1743, 1746, 1748-1752, 1756-1757, 1759-1812
Ann/Nancy Linacre's birth year is estimated from her age at burial to be 1753-1754, with some usual room for error, of course. Given that 1753 is the only year that baptism records of West Kirby are missing, from 1747 onwards. Curiously, however, there are no other baptism records for children of theirs. There's another possibility: that all their children were baptised at Upton (Overchurch), whose parish records only survived consistently from 1756.
All this said, I stumbled across a very interesting record for a marriage at Great Budworth parish church, some 35 miles east of West Kirby! It's dated 23 Sep 1751, and for a Daniel 'Linigar' of Weaverham (nearby) and Margaret Harrison of Great Budworth. Now, there are no records of the baptisms of either Daniel or Margaret in this vicinity, and in particular no Linacre's (or any spelling variant) whatsoever in this area, so this got me wondering. The names, date, and other circumstances of this marriage seem too coincidental not to be our ancestors. So my best theory is that they eloped and then returned to the part of the Wirral where they were from. In fact, the most likely candidate for Margaret Harrison is the one baptised 01 Nov 1721 at Woodchurch church to Henry Harrison and his wife Eleanor Whittle, of Arrowe. The 04 Jan 1791 burial record for Margaret Linacre wife of Daniel is very curious, since it gives her age as 88, implying a birth year of ~1702, some 26 years older than her husband Daniel! My working assumption is that her age may actually have been 66, making her born around 1722, though I could well be mistaken on this point.
David, if you're able to check your DNA matches for any Harrison's in Cheshire and see if they point towards Woodchurch parish (Arrowe in particular), I'd be very interested in seeing what you find. No doubt they'll be very distant matches, a low number of cMs, if you have any.
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Hi Alex
Firstly what a fantastic piece of detective work. I have not replied sooner as there is a lot to take in.
My reply is only about your response yesterday, not the one today, I haven`t had time to fully consider that one.
Just to set out what I think is the case from your research that you outlined yesterday.
We have two family trees for the Richard Smiths that are in Bidston/Moreton
Our John Smith`s Tree
Robert Smith(West Kirby) marries Margaret Holt 1715 Heswall
Children: John (1716) Samuel (1718) James (1720) Richard (1724)
Robert Smith dies 1729
Robert Smith`s son John Smith(1716) 1st marriage to Catherine Inglefield(b1716) was 1739 (Catherine buried 1747)
Children from 1st marriage: Catherine, Ann, Mary
2nd Marriage to Mary Yearsley (1704) was 1750 (Mary buried 1776 Storeton Bebington)
Children from 2nd marriage Mary (1751) , Richard (1755), William (1754)
John Smith(1716(Heswall)) death at Storeton, Bebington 1780
Richard Smith Jnr (1755) marries Nancy Linacre in 1775
The other Smith Tree
Thomas Smith born (1704(West Kirby))
Marries Margaret Langley 1733 Hesswall
Children: Thomas Smith (b 1734) +
Margaret dies 1745
2nd marriage to Sue Ciknes at Bidston Church, Thomas Snr & children live in Bidston after marriage of Thomas Snr
No children from 2nd marriage
Thomas Smith Jnr marries Martha Woodward in Bidston 1761
Children Richard smith born 1764 in Moreton
Richard Smith marries Martha Linacre 1785 Bidston church
Connection
John Smith 1st Marriage to Margaret (unknown)
Children Robert Smith born 1680 West Kirby
Death of Margaret Smith 1695
John Smith 2nd Marriage to Mary Young
Children of Second marriage Thomas Smith(1704) Margaret (1697) John (1699) Samuel (1702)
Thomas Smith(1704) & Robert Smith 1680 ARE COUSINS
Both give rise to Richard Smiths ie Thomas Smith has a grandson Richard b1764 marries Martha Linacre
Robert Smith has a grandson Richard Smith b1755 marries a Ann Linacre
Questions
When did Thomas Smith Snr remarry Sue Ciknes?
Have you got any DNA matches from the Robert Smith Line?
John Smith son of Robert Smith do both of his marriages ie to Catherine Inglfield & 2nd to Mary indicate he was born in Heswall?
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Hi Sue,
Glad this all interests you. Your summary is quite correct – that's my working theory at least. Well, Thomas Smith actually married Margaret Langley in 1731 (not 1733), but that matters little. I'd also add that Ann/Nancy Linacre and Martha Linacre were first cousins by my reckoning, in case you missed that bit.
In response to your questions:
- Thomas Smith married Sue Ciknes on 11 Apr 1746 at Bidston church, following the burial of his first wife Margaret on 22 Jun 1745 at Heswall church.
- I've not yet done a thorough study of DNA matches on my Smith side, though I'll try to have another look soon. Of course, finding DNA matches this far back (i.e. finding a match with someone who's descended from a different child of Robert) is hampered both by the tiny amounts of DNA shared from common ancestors from many generations ago, and by the lack of accurate family trees going back so far in time. Still, it may be possible, with a bit of luck and effort. Please let me know if you find any too.
- Our John Smith's place of residence is not given in either of his two marriage records, as was unfortunately common during that period. Place of *birth* is never (or almost never) stated in my experience. Usually it's safe to assume that both bride and groom (certainly the bride) were resident in the parish at the time, unless the record states otherwise, but occasionally they came from a neighbouring parish and the priests sometimes even took liberties with banns. Sorry if I'm saying something you already know. Anyway, it's not clear whether John Smith was already living and working in Bebington at the point he married Catherine Inglefield, but certainly he and his second wife Mary Moss (née Yearsley) were both living in Bebington when they married, both for the second time. My guess would be that John Smith, being a farm labourer who moved about for work, was already living in Bebington when he met Catherine Inglefield, but it's very possible their marriage record simply fails to state that he was living in Heswall parish then.
Alex
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Hi Alex
Just had a read of your post on the Linacres, I like it, there is nothing like a good elopement in one`s family history.
Perhaps it’s a family tradition as my gg grandmother Emma Roberts went off to St Nicolas in Liverpool in 1862 to marry Jonathan Smith(b1841) the g grandson of our Richard Smith(b1755).
I gather that was a place for elopements.
She gave birth to their first child a short while afterwards(within a day or two), so perhaps that was the reason Jonathan`s family may have felt that she had forced is hand.
Yes I had missed the bit about Nancy & Martha being 1st cousins.
Thanks for answering my other questions I was just curious. I thought you would have said if the place of residence for John`s marriages had been given, quite frustrating that they were not filled in.
Sadly I have not done my DNA, however it may not prove a match as it may be doubtful that Emma Roberts who married Johnathan Smith in 1862 was not actually living with him when she gave birth to her daughter Emma Smith in Bury 1869. I think their marriage had broke down, as he marries again! Obviously bigamously.
I am also not quite sure how DNA works on Ancestry, I will have to have a look on the their site.
It would be great if anyone else has something to add.
Sue
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I had pencilled in the marriage of Daniel to Margaret Harrison, although the location was some distance away.
I have aslo pencilled in the the baptism of Daniel Linacre at West Kirby on 1st January 1729, son of William, although the burial record suggests an earlier birth. Like that of Margaret, it may not be correct, although he may have been baptised later than his birth.
There is also Elizabeth on 17th August 1722, Daughter of William and Anne, together with the marriage of William Linaker to Ann Williams in August 1722. William buried on 21st November 1774
I don't have any DNA matches to Harrisons, although probably to far back to have sufficient levels.
I am still going through all of the recent posts, and will let you know if I find anything more.
Also a William, son of William Linacre of Great Meolse, at West Kirby on 10th December 1730, who might be the one buried in 1774, and Thomas on 4th Jan 1723/4.
David
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Hi Alex
Just had a read of your post on the Linacres, I like it, there is nothing like a good elopement in one`s family history.
Perhaps it’s a family tradition as my gg grandmother Emma Roberts went off to St Nicolas in Liverpool in 1862 to marry Jonathan Smith(b1841) the g grandson of our Richard Smith(b1755).
I gather that was a place for elopements.
She gave birth to their first child a short while afterwards(within a day or two), so perhaps that was the reason Jonathan`s family may have felt that she had forced is hand.
Yes I had missed the bit about Nancy & Martha being 1st cousins.
Thanks for answering my other questions I was just curious. I thought you would have said if the place of residence for John`s marriages had been given, quite frustrating that they were not filled in.
Sadly I have not done my DNA, however it may not prove a match as it may be doubtful that Emma Roberts who married Johnathan Smith in 1862 was not actually living with him when she gave birth to her daughter Emma Smith in Bury 1869. I think their marriage had broke down, as he marries again! Obviously bigamously.
I am also not quite sure how DNA works on Ancestry, I will have to have a look on the their site.
It would be great if anyone else has something to add.
Sue
Hi Sue,
Yes, elopements certainly make for interesting stories! In this case, it's just conjecture on my part, though it would surely make sense, and I can't think of another good explanation... although there may well be one.
I too have an English ancestor whose marriage evidently broke down, after which both he and his wife moved to different towns and remarried bigamously. I'm inclined to sympathy, as divorce required an Act of Parliament in those days, and was therefore only feasible for the rich and prestigious. That was his second wife. His first wife had died soon after they married, and his third wife (my ancestor) was a granddaughter of Richard Smith & Nancy Linacre. At least that one seems to have been happy and successful!
Do check out AncestryDNA – I recommend it. I don't think there's a sale on at the moment, but I (or someone else) could always send a referral for a 15% discount. However, as David and I have mentioned, once you get to the mid 1700s and beyond, the chances of finding DNA matches from those ancestors becomes very slim, though not impossible. It's been a great resource for me regardless.
Alex
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I had pencilled in the marriage of Daniel to Margaret Harrison, although the location was some distance away.
I have aslo pencilled in the the baptism of Daniel Linacre at West Kirby on 1st January 1729, son of William, although the burial record suggests an earlier birth. Like that of Margaret, it may not be correct, although he may have been baptised later than his birth.
There is also Elizabeth on 17th August 1722, Daughter of William and Anne, together with the marriage of William Linaker to Ann Williams in August 1722. William buried on 21st November 1774
I don't have any DNA matches to Harrisons, although probably to far back to have sufficient levels.
I am still going through all of the recent posts, and will let you know if I find anything more.
Also a William, son of William Linacre of Great Meolse, at West Kirby on 10th December 1730, who might be the one buried in 1774, and Thomas on 4th Jan 1723/4.
David
Hi David,
Indeed, I think I'd also seen that marriage a few years ago and not really investigated it, but now that I consider how rare a name Daniel Linacre would have been, and the lack of presence of the surname in that area, I'm personally very confident they're our couple. Too many coincidences otherwise. The much bigger doubt is whether the Margaret Harrison is the one baptised 01 Nov 1721 at Woodchurch. There's no real candidate in the Great Budworth area, at least... whereas Arrowe is only some 4 miles from Great Meols.
You're of course right that baptisms were occasionally performed well after the birth, although the overwhelmingly common case would have been to baptise the child within a few days of birth, I think. Daniel's burial record implies he was born about 1725, which is close enough to 1729 that I'm not troubled by this identification. The West Kirby parish records are complete from 1690 to 1732, from what I can tell. It would also make sense that Daniel's (eldest?) daughter Ann/Nancy Linacre was named after his mother, Ann Williams. Incidentally, I have no idea about when/where she was baptised, since the only Williams family in West Kirby at the time was that of Peter Williams, and she evidently wasn't his daughter (or at least not from his time living in West Kirby). My suspicion is that she was baptised at the nearby church of Upton (Overchurch), since records for that church don't survive for this period. There were also families of John and Edward Williams in Bidston parish, specifically in Woodside, Birkenhead and Claughton, so a little further than Upton.
Just to clarify, you mean that the William Linacre buried 21 Nov 1774 at West Kirby was the father, born 1702, right? Because, Ann, his wife (described as such) was buried 09 Feb 1773 at West Kirby. Their son William seems to have been baptised 10 Dec 1730 and buried just four days later. The burial records are not on FindMyPast for some reason, only FamilySearch.
Look forward to hearing any other thoughts you have.
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Sorry to throw more info at you, but I should also mention that I did a bit of digging into the origins of Margery Holt, the wife of Robert Smith of West Kirby / Heswall and the purported mother of our John Smith. I find no evidence of any Holt's in the vicinity of West Kirby or neighbouring parishes. The only Margery Holt I can find in the right timeframe is the one baptised 19 Feb 1688/9 [O.S./N.S.] at Ince, the daughter of John Holt (d. 1718) and Margery Billinge (d. 1693). This is certainly about the birth year I'd expect considering Robert Smith was born 1680 and Robert and Margery married in 1715. Would be interesting to see if anyone has DNA evidence to support this idea, as Ince is good few miles (though not excessively far) from West Kirby.
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I have found the burial of Anne Linacre on FindMyPast, but it isn't indexed.
The image seems to show that husband, William, was a Fisherman of Great Meols.
William's is indexed, and Anne's is on page 49 of the filmstrip.
A lot of trees have William as the son of Thomas Linacre, and Mary Hill, of Great Meolse, baptised on 6th September 1702.
However, they also have his burial as 1728, which can't be correct, and Anne's death as 1782, also not correct.
David
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I have found the burial of Anne Linacre on FindMyPast, but it isn't indexed.
The image seems to show that husband, William, was a Fisherman of Great Meols.
William's is indexed, and Anne's is on page 49 of the filmstrip.
A lot of trees have William as the son of Thomas Linacre, and Mary Hill, of Great Meolse, baptised on 6th September 1702.
However, they also have his burial as 1728, which can't be correct, and Anne's death as 1782, also not correct.
David
Indeed, I should have said the (early) burial records are not indexed/searchable on FindMyPast, though the images are very much present – for the earlier years often on the same pages as the baptisms and marriages.
I agree those trees can't be correct. I don't even see a burial record for a William Linacre in 1728. The creators/copiers of those trees are also mistaken about the parents of William Linacre, I'm pretty sure. Thomas Linacre 'of West Kirby, seaman' and Mary Hill 'of Wallasy' were married by licence on 12 Sep 1698. Mary 'wife of Thomas Linacre' is buried 04 Aug 1719, with location given as West Kirby – this is almost surely Mary Hill.
One can also find baptism records for children of a Thomas Linacre of Little Meols, whom I believe is another of the same name. His wife was Ellen 'of Little Meols', buried in 1726. There's a marriage record for Thomas Linacre and Ellen Milner dated 30 Dec 1697 at West Kirby church.
On the other hand, there are children of what seems to be a third Thomas Linacre, this one of Great Meols, baptised between 1702 to 1712. You've already mentioned them: William, Henry, Paul, and Thomas. What's more, there are two baptisms (I forget which) only a few months apart, one with father Thomas Linacre of Little Meols, the other with father Thomas Linacre of Great Meols. We should therefore conclude there were three Thomas Linacre's living in the parish at this time, one of West Kirby itself, one of Little Meols, and one of Great Meols. Our line of Linacre ancestors seem to be exclusively linked to Great Meols, at least until the late 1700s, and there's only a single baptism of a William in any case.
I'm afraid, however, that I've been struggling to find the burial records for these three Thomas Linacre's. Maybe the FamilySearch index isn't perfect? The only record for a Thomas Linacre that isn't a child (i.e., described as son of X Linacre) is the one who was buried 24 Oct 1728 and described as being of West Kirby, husbandman. This is probably the first of the three, husband of Mary Hill, though the change of occupation is a little curious. The better news is that I've found a burial record dated 24 Sep 1731 for Alice Linacre, widow, of Great Meols, whom I think would be the wife of our Thomas Linacre and the mother of William. I've not found their marriage record however.
Do please let me know if you have more luck than me finding our Thomas's burial record. Perhaps with a careful manual search.
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The only two I can find, other than 1728, at West Kirby are:-
Thomas Linekar, Yeoman, 29th December 1783 of West Kirby
Thomas Linekar, Yeoman, 9th July 1815 of Great Meolse, b 1722
Presumed husband of Elizabeth Shaw
David
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The only two I can find, other than 1728, at West Kirby are:-
Thomas Linekar, Yeoman, 29th December 1783 of West Kirby
Thomas Linekar, Yeoman, 9th July 1815 of Great Meolse, b 1722
Presumed husband of Elizabeth Shaw
David
Thanks for checking. That's what I thought. A little odd, however.
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Sorry to throw more info at you, but I should also mention that I did a bit of digging into the origins of Margery Holt, the wife of Robert Smith of West Kirby / Heswall and the purported mother of our John Smith. I find no evidence of any Holt's in the vicinity of West Kirby or neighbouring parishes. The only Margery Holt I can find in the right timeframe is the one baptised 19 Feb 1688/9 [O.S./N.S.] at Ince, the daughter of John Holt (d. 1718) and Margery Billinge (d. 1693). This is certainly about the birth year I'd expect considering Robert Smith was born 1680 and Robert and Margery married in 1715. Would be interesting to see if anyone has DNA evidence to support this idea, as Ince is good few miles (though not excessively far) from West Kirby.
Hello both,
Happy new year! I have a nice update on the above topic. It looks like this Margery Hoult was indeed the wife of Robert Smith (and mother of John). Here's a timeline I've reconstructed.
Thomas Billinge & Margery Ellis married 31 Aug 1683 at Woodchurch (but recorded in register of Ince!) by licence
--- Marriage licence indicates that Thomas Billinge ('Billington' there) was a husbandman of Ince, and Margery Ellis was of Barnston in Woodchurch, and that William Ellis of Heswall was the other bondsman alongside Margery herself.
John Holt/Hoult of Ince & Margery Billinge (née Ellis) married 06 May 1688 at Ince
Margery Holt baptised 19 Feb 1688/9 at Ince
Mary Holt baptised 18 Oct 1691 at Ince
Robert Smith & Margery Holt married 01 Dec 1715 at Heswall
So, it seems likely that Margery Holt moved to Heswall as a young woman, owing to the ties of her mother's family to Heswall and neighbouring Barnston. William Ellis of Heswall died there in 1705, and my suspicion is that he was her uncle. I found what ought to be his baptism record (at Heswall) in 1665, son of John Ellis. I couldn't find any baptism records of siblings, unfortunately.
Alex
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Hello again,
I've been looking into DNA matches the last couple of days, and come up with some interesting (although still vague) findings. In brief, there is clear evidence among the DNA matches of my mother and two of her siblings of links to the Weaverham and Great Budworth areas of Cheshire. This makes me strongly suspect that our ancestor Margaret Harrison of Great Budworth who married Daniel Linacre at Weaverham church in 1751, was from that area.
Two DNA matches in particular are worth looking at, since they allow for triangulation.
"Lyndsay Jones, Nee Ormsby"
descended from Minnie Harrison, b. 1877 in Leftwich, daughter of James Harrison of Lymm & Mary Elizabeth Buckley of Warburton
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/66864865/family?cfpid=330106358423
"Sharon Harrison"
descended from Henry Leigh Harrison, b. 1866 in Davenham, son of the same James Harrison & Mary Elizabeth Buckley
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/170418931/family?cfpid=272219274393
I haven't checked the second tree for accuracy, but all the individuals seem to be from the areas of Lymm and Northwich. The earliest Harrison ancestor seems to be William Harrison b. ~1748, m. Ann Dean 1776 in Lymm, d. 1816 in Lymm (aged 68). Going back further is trickier. Lymm is a little way from Weaverham, but in several of the trees I've looked at, there seem to be links between the two areas, for whatever reason.
I should also draw your attention to a record for the baptism of Mary, illegitimate daughter of Margaret Harrison, 07 Apr 1745 at Witton-cum-Tawambrooks (a chapelry of Great Budworth parish).
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FB%2F766554082%2F1
The abbreviation "st:ra" next to Margaret's name is an unusual one. I really don't know what it could mean.
Finally, here's the will of a certain Thomas Harrison of Little Leigh par. Great Budworth (the part that borders on Weaverham), which may be relevant.
https://www.findmypast.com/transcript?id=GBPRS%2FCHS%2F748091032
Please let me know if you have any thoughts or ideas.