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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: Hardygirl85 on Sunday 18 December 22 20:49 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I need help I have no idea what I’m doing or how to do it , I’m trying to trace back my family tree and build it for my children, I’m aware we are Romani but want to confirm this
Immediate family name is hardy , generation prior was goldsmith/hardy , we also have fisher and Taylor , my great gran was born Cardiff wales mid 1920’s then travelled to Manchester where my grandad was born 1942 , then travelled to norfolk where more of his siblings were born , any help would be marginally appreciated
Great gran Gertrude maud goldsmith( known as Mary ) maiden the married george hardy then later married van pelt
I know the goldsmith side were from Cardiff until the whole family (15 ) travelled to Manchester to then travelled and settle in norfolk living as one big family in at Ann’s st near dock yard, my great gran was a peg maker y great grandfather was a rag and bone man please if anyone can help me sort this I would so appreciative
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Do you mind sharing the names and dates of birth of your great grandparents that were a peg maker and rag and bone man? Was Gertrude ''Mary'' Goldsmith the great grandmother and peg maker and George Hardy the rag and bone man?
Lot's of my romany ancestors also had these occupations so it's very likely they were.
Have you gone back any further than the peg maker and rag and bone man, if I have the dates of birth I can try and help you do this if you haven't :)
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Welcome to Rootschat
The Goldsmith/Hardy marriage was 1939 in Norfolk. Gertrude M Goldsmith married Charles W Hardy - not George Hardy
www.freebmd.org.uk
Gertrude Mary Goldsmith was born 1917 Norfolk & her mothers maiden name was Fisher
You can find her on the 1939 register in Norfolk - sorry - we are not allowed to give info from the 1939 register that is only available via subscription
In 1960 - Gertrude Hardy married Theodorus Van Pelt in Norfolk
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I can't see a Goldsmith/Fisher marriage in Norfolk so they may have married elsewhere.
You could look for Gertrude on the 1921 census to establish her parents christian names or you could buy a copy of her birth cert
Gertrude Mary Van Pelt b 3.5.1917 died 1998 Norfolk
Theodorus Van Pelt b 22.8.1918 died 1969 Norfolk. A tree on Ancesty shows he was born in Holland
Theodorus previously married Ethel Cliffe in Cheshire in 1941. They presumably divorced as Ethel Van Pelt married Maurice Baggaley in Norfolk in 1964. She died 1990 Norfolk - birthdate 21.4.1920
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Looks like Gertrude Mary Goldsmith's parents were Joseph Andrew Goldsmith and Gertrude Maud Fisher. They got married the year before she was born in 1916 in Portsmouth.
Joseph Andrew Goldsmith died circa December 1936 in East Glarmorgan.
Gertrude Maud Fisher died 1958 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.
(I think)
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Gertrude Maude Fisher birth was registered March qtr 1898 Norfolk - www.freebmd.org.uk
Her mothers maiden name was Cook https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
Parents married March qtr 1898 Norfolk
Joseph Andrew Goldsmith aged 42 died 1936 Glamorgan
Here he is in 1901 with parents
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSFN-Z25
Here is Gertrude in 1901
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSFN-FQG
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Gertrude in 1911 with parents and siblings:
Adress: North Place, North Street, Kings Lynn, Norfolk
Robert Fisher head married born in 1878 Fisherman born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
Mary Ann Fisher wife married born in 1877 no occupation born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
GERTIE MAUD FISHER daughter single born in 1898 attending school born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
Charles Robert Fisher son single born in 1900 attending school born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
Ethel May Fisher daughter single born in 1902 attending school born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
Arthur Edward Fisher son single born in 1908 no occupation born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
Elsie May Fisher daughter single born in 1910 no occupation born in Kings Lynn Norfolk
Mary Ann Fisher (nee Cook) had 7 children, 5 survived (5 on census) and 2 died.
So, Gertrude Maud Fisher's siblings (children of Robert Fisher and Mary Ann Cook) were:
Charles Robert Fisher born 1899 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk mothers maiden name: Cook
Ethel May Fisher born 1901 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk mothers maiden name: Cook
Arthur Edward Fisher born 1907 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk mothers maiden name: Cook
Elsie May Fisher born 1909 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk mothers maiden name: Cook
the two children that died were:
James Albert Fisher born 1903 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk mothers maiden name: Cook
George Henry Fisher born 1905 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk mothers maiden name: Cook
The birth dates as you can see are one year off for the children on the 1911 census, it's more accurate to go by the date on the birth register below :)
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I think they may have also gone on to have some more children:
Thomas H Fisher born in 1911 in kings lynn, norfolk mothers maiden name cook
George D Fisher born in 1915 in kings lynn, norfolk mothers maiden name cook
Jack S Fisher born in 1920 in kings lynn, norfolk mothers maiden name cook
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Hi
I don’t really know date of births etc I really struggle with all of this searching etc it’s very difficult but from the reply’s so far it all seems to match things I knew, it was my great great grandmother I believe was the peg maker and her husband the rag and bone man, along side possible fisherman but can’t be sure I only know bits my father told me before he passed away and the family distanced themselves so I have no contact with anyone in the family to be able to ask questions , Gertrude maud fisher was indeed my great great gran wasn’t aware of my great great grandfathers name only knew his surname was fisher then yes I believe Gertrude fishers maiden name was cook which is where the cooks came into it all , 😅 very very big family I believe my great gran was one of a few siblings I’m aware of
Stanley goldsmith -1927
Charles goldsmith
Wyndom goldsmith
Harry goldsmith
Donald goldsmith
There were two sisters also but don’t know there names these were all born around 1911+
My grand father was Leslie Charles hardy-1942 April
Siblings
Raymond hardy
Melvyn hardy
Jean hardy
Linda hardy
Qwenith hardy
Great gran father yes was Charles William hardy aka bill hardy not George 🤦♀️
I’m aware the fisher sand goldsmiths were from wales moving to norfolk to settle , however I’m aware they travelled ar up and for abit as my grandad was born Manchester mid w11 then to move to norfolk ,
he always said the family were Romani gypsy he broke away from it all and settled with the children in 1960’s in norfolk were the travelling basically came to a stand still although we was brought up with the travelling morals I.e I was taken out of school at 14 once I’d had the education beloved to deem enough, while growing up I was taught the standard practices of cooking, cleaning etc within the home , however I was taught a lot more than normal travelling children by my father like cars etc as he said it’s a different day and age and a women needs to know” how to do most things these days “
I’m also aware of smith being a strong family tie but that’s on my mother’s side so again smith,fisher, goldsmith and cook and hardy all being strong gypsy names although some had changed there names from Golding to goldsmith I presume from what I can see
Really appreciating all this help it’s difficult to get to grips with it all ,
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Also as you can see Gertrude Mary goldsmith used her middle name of Mary never was to be called Gertrude again a gypsy thing where first names were both the same as the mother and use of middle name as first name , also Joseph I would presume would of been “joe” or joey , may being used as a middle name very gypsy thing to do also I myself have my two daughters
Rosie -may
Ellie-mae
The may is the middle name of my grandmother my grandfather names his first child Leslie melvyn which was his first name and the middle name of his brother then he went on to have a son with melvyn as middle name
Sorry I’m just trying to give as much info as I can to assist with all this as I want to sit down and actually draw a tree for the children Thankyou for all your help it is much appreciated :)
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Hello, thanks for all the extra information you gave!
Here are some dates and information about some of Gertrude (Mary) Hardy's siblings just so you know the dates:
JOSEPH ANDREW ROBERT GOLDSMITH (named after his dad Joseph Andrew Goldsmith and his grandad- Robert Fisher). Joseph was born July 1919 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk and died in June 1980 in Norwich. According to burial records he was buried on May 12th 1980 in St Ethelbert, Norfolk. He married a woman called Elizabeth M Wilson in 1946 in Kings Lynn Norfolk. I think she might have died (or they divorced) and he re-married to Joan Elvin in 1977 Depwade, Norfolk.
SIMON HAROLD (known as Harry) GOLDSMITH was born in April 1921 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk and died in 2006 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. Not sure who he married, you may know.
JESSIE ELEANOR GOLDSMITH born May 1922 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk, she died in September 1987 also in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. I think she married Eric Gordon Neal in 1958 in Kings Lynn.
CHARLES E GOLDSMITH was born in December 1923. His birth was recorded in Cardiff, Glamorganshire- I'm assuming as this is the only Charles Goldsmith born with mmn Fisher at the right time, and you mentioned them travelling to Wales I think. He died in March 2000 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. Not sure who or if he married, again you may know this.
STANLEY DAVID GOLDSMITH was born in August 1925 also in Cardiff, the same as older brother Charles. Stanley died in 2002 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.
WYNDHAM RAYMOND GOLDSMITH (his middle name, Raymond, is where your grandfathers brothers name comes from) was born in January 1927 also born in Cardiff. He died in May 2006 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk. Wyndham married Sheila M Hutson in 1952 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.
IVY M GOLDSMITH was born in 1928 in Cardiff, and then sadly died young in the same year in Cardiff (not sure if she lived months or just days)
some more specific birth dates you might want:
Gertrude Maud Fisher (became Goldsmith when married) was born January 5th 1898
Harry Goldsmith (real name Simon) was born April 5th 1921
Wyndham Goldsmith was born January 14th 1927
Charles William ''Bill'' Hardy was born November 19th 1919
Gertrude Mary Goldsmith was born 17th May 1917
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D G b 1933 could still be alive in which case you need to remove his name & details from your last reply as Rootschat has a strict no living persons policy
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Very sorry, completely forgot I wrote that, will do now.
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Simon died as Harold Simon N Goldsmith. His birth reg shows Simon Harold N Goldsmith . There is a marriage in Norfolk 1962 on freebmd
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GRO online shows the N as Neale for Simon’s 3rd christian name
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1962 marriage was to a Helen Maud Messing
Death of Helen Maud Goldsmith b 1922 March qtr 2013 per GRO online
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some more information on Joseph Andrew Goldsmith:
He was born on September 8th 1894 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk- his parents were Joseph and Annie Goldsmith. As you can see on the earlier post from CaroleW of the 1901 census that Joseph A Goldsmith is on, it says that his grandmother (Annie's mother) was called Elizabeth Dale. This means that Annie's maiden name was Dale too. Joseph Andrew Goldsmith's parents married in 1894 (the year he was born) in Kings Lynn.
These are the siblings of Joseph Andrew Goldsmith (the children of Joseph Goldsmith and Annie Dale):
Frederick Walter Goldsmith - born in 1896 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.
Martha May Mary Goldsmith - born 1899 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk, sadly died in 1901.
Florence E Goldsmith - born 1902 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.
Annie Goldsmith - 1905 in Kings lynn, Norfolk.
Mildred Goldsmith - 1908 in Kings Lynn, Norfolk.
In the 1911 census, Joseph Andrew Goldsmith was not living with his family on 39 Sir Lewis Street in St Margaret's, Norfolk. This is his family without him on the census: (his dad was also not there)
Annie Goldsmith 36 domestic duties
Frederick Goldsmith 14 errand boy
Florence Goldsmith 9
Annie Goldsmith 6
Mildred Goldsmith 3
Elizabeth Dale 70 (the mother of Annie Goldsmith (nee Dale)
On the census, Annie put that her husband Joseph was still alive and left a line blank at the top for his name.
Joseph Andrew Goldsmith on the 1911 census was on a training ship for the marine society sea training, the ship was in Dartford, Kent at the time of the census. Joseph was a sea apprentice.
Joseph Goldsmith 16 sea apprentice marine society sea training born in Kings Lynn
I am not sure where his dad Joseph Goldsmith was in 1911, why he was not with the family and children in Norfolk.
There is a record of Joseph Andrew Goldsmith's service for the Royal Navy. He did military service between 1914 and 1925.
He married Gertrude Maud Fisher in 1916 in Portsmouth and then died in 1936 in Glamorgan.