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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Vendee on Tuesday 27 December 22 21:32 GMT (UK)
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Apologies in advance. When I've asked questions here before, its usually asking for advice on how to find certain information myself but this time I'm asking if someone could do a look up for me.
I'm asking about my great great grandmother, Mary Ann Gavin neé Smith. She was born 18/11/1846 at Great Bradley in Suffolk. I've managed to track her life up to the 1891 census but I can't be sure what happened after that. Previous census entries show her growing up then working in her home village as a servant, then working in nearby Cambridge as a servant. She has an illegitimate son and then appears in Sheffield married to my GG grandfather Joseph Gavin (although no marriage details found).The family move to Salford and settle there.
I can't find either of them in the 1901 census but in the 1911 census I've found someone that I'm 75% sure is my GG grandmother. The entry is for a Mary Gavin, same age as my GGGM, married the same number of years, same number of children born, same number of children who have died. The only discrepancy in the place of birth which is listed as Duxford in Cambridgeshire. Thing is.... Duxford is only 12 miles away from Great Bradley where GGGM was born. I think that is a big coincidence with all the other details being identical. The 1911 census entry for GGGM was completed by the property owner (her employer) and I wonder if she has mentioned Duxford to him and he assumed she was born there. She may have worked in Duxford in between the census entries I have.
So would it be possible for someone here with better access to records try and ascertain if there really was a Mary Gavin born in Duxford in 1846? I know that Gavin is the persons married name which makes things more difficult but Duxford was a small village, probably around 200 population in 1846 so I can't imagine there were more than 20 births per year.
As a side question regarding the lack of marriage certificate, was it normal/accepted to live with someone and take their surname without actually getting married?
Thanks in advance
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This may be Joseph in 1901 3719/37/13
Joseph Gavin, 62 yrs Navvy b Ireland lodging in Pendleton
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In the 1921 census searching Mary Gavin b 1846 it throws up 2. One b 1844 living Wavertree sole occupant and this one below with no birth date - Liverpool.
Highlighting the transcript(hover over) it states here are 'Mary,Joseph,Rose & 6 others'.
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In the 1921 census searching Mary Gavin b 1846 it throws up 2. One b 1844 living Wavertree sole occupant and this one below with no birth date - Liverpool.
Highlighting the transcript(hover over) it states here are 'Mary,Joseph,Rose & 6 others'.
I had a look but I don't think either is correct. One is born in West Ireland, the other is a 5-year-old (I hope that is okay to say, as I know we are not allowed 1921 look ups on here, but I am just ruling them out).
Queenie :)
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Likely death registration:
GAVIN, MARY ANN 72
GRO Reference: 1918 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 172
Explains why she doesn't appear on the 1921 census.
Queenie :)
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As a side question regarding the lack of marriage certificate, was it normal/accepted to live with someone and take their surname without actually getting married?
Thanks in advance
In my opinion, it was definitely not unusual. People usually lied about it and claimed to be married, so I wouldn't say it was considered 'acceptable', but it happened a fair amount.
Seen quite a few examples in my own family. In several of these cases, I find that either the husband or the wife was already married to someone who was still alive - but from whom they had obviously separated (for whatever reason) - and so marrying again would be committing the crime of bigamy. Other times I can see no obvious explanation.
Queenie :)
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Likely death registration:
GAVIN, MARY ANN 72
GRO Reference: 1918 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 172
Explains why she doesn't appear on the 1921 census.
Queenie :)
This looks like the burial on https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ but no information.
26th June 1918. All Souls and St John Vianney, Weaste
Maria A. Gavin - 72 yrs
Burial: 29th June 1918
Age: 72
Notes: Ex S. U. Inf.
That will be Salford Infirmary so no home address.
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This may be Joseph in 1901 3719/37/13
Joseph Gavin, 62 yrs Navvy b Ireland lodging in Pendleton
Yes I've got that record thank you. Makes you wonder why there is no 1901 record for Mary Ann or why they were not living together although he still declares himself as married. I do accept that there are some things that I'll never find out.
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Likely death registration:
GAVIN, MARY ANN 72
GRO Reference: 1918 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 172
Explains why she doesn't appear on the 1921 census.
Queenie :)
Thank you. I do have that already and although I can't say that's her for certain, its certainly a very good fit.
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As a side question regarding the lack of marriage certificate, was it normal/accepted to live with someone and take their surname without actually getting married?
Thanks in advance
In my opinion, it was definitely not unusual. People usually lied about it and claimed to be married, so I wouldn't say it was considered 'acceptable', but it happened a fair amount.
Seen quite a few examples in my own family. In several of these cases, I find that either the husband or the wife was already married to someone who was still alive - but from whom they had obviously separated (for whatever reason) - and so marrying again would be committing the crime of bigamy. Other times I can see no obvious explanation.
Queenie :)
Thanks. I know that people were fairly loose with the legalities back then. My great grandfather Daniel (Mary Ann's son) was a petty criminal, mainly shop lifting and burglary. He actually got married using his criminal alias surname. He finally went to prison again and then spent the rest of his life in an asylum but reverting to his real surname while his wife and descendants, including myself, carried on with the false alias surname. It made tracing my family tree very challenging for a few years but it makes for an interesting talking point down the pub.
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Likely death registration:
GAVIN, MARY ANN 72
GRO Reference: 1918 J Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 172
Explains why she doesn't appear on the 1921 census.
Queenie :)
This looks like the burial on https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/ but no information.
26th June 1918. All Souls and St John Vianney, Weaste
Maria A. Gavin - 72 yrs
Burial: 29th June 1918
Age: 72
Notes: Ex S. U. Inf.
That will be Salford Infirmary so no home address.
I've seen this before and it looks good apart from the possible Maria/Mary typo.
Just out of curiosity.... what does the "U" stand for in S. U. inf ?
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This may be Joseph in 1901 3719/37/13
Joseph Gavin, 62 yrs Navvy b Ireland lodging in Pendleton
Yes I've got that record thank you. Makes you wonder why there is no 1901 record for Mary Ann or why they were not living together although he still declares himself as married. I do accept that there are some things that I'll never find out.
The census is only a snapshot of one night in ten years. It’s possible that Joseph was simply working away from home for a time.
Added: a guess - U for Union?
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Salford Union
The burial is from Catholic records, I would think - hence Maria.
You would need the death certificate to see if there is an address. The informant, though, would likely be a hospital employee so it would be a gamble.
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Do you have her daughter, Mary Theresa’s marriage details in 1904.
Although, I think she was living away from home, so may not be useful re the address either!
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This may be Joseph in 1901 3719/37/13
Joseph Gavin, 62 yrs Navvy b Ireland lodging in Pendleton
Yes I've got that record thank you. Makes you wonder why there is no 1901 record for Mary Ann or why they were not living together although he still declares himself as married. I do accept that there are some things that I'll never find out.
The census is only a snapshot of one night in ten years. It’s possible that Joseph was simply working away from home for a time.
Added: a guess - U for Union?
Thanks. I agree that the census is a snapshot but Joseph had been a Salford resident for over 10 years so he wasn't away from home in 1901 (Pendleton is in Salford)
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Do you have her daughter, Mary Theresa’s marriage details in 1904.
Although, I think she was living away from home, so may not be useful re the address either!
Yeah I've got that. I though she was married in Salford or Manchester which was where she was living. Thanks for the Maria thing. You are probably right there. They did like their Latin form names back then.
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Mary T Gavin married Patrick Hoben at Salford St Simon. I can’t online records for that church.
I think she is Theresa Gavin, b Sheffield at 1901 3731/59/15 boarding with William Smith b Sheffield and family in Salford. Would that be her half brother?
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Mary T Gavin married Patrick Hoben at Salford St Simon. I can’t online records for that church.
I think she is Theresa Gavin, b Sheffield at 1901 3731/59/15 boarding with William Smith b Sheffield and family in Salford. Would that be her half brother?
Ah... right. I can't find my copy of Mary Theresa's 1901 census on my PC at the moment but my notes say that her status on that entry was "boarder". If there is a William Smith on that same entry then I'm not sure it is her half brother. He was born in Suffolk and would have been 28 in 1901. Last thing I heard about William was on the 1891 census when he an "inmate" at the Market Weighton Roman Catholic reformatory in Yorkshire, have been sent there for 5 years in 1897. I didn't think he ever joined up with his family in Salford but I may be wrong.
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All Soul’s RC church at Weaste didn’t have a burial ground, what is recorded is that the funeral took place in that church on that day. You can see a transcribed entry on the lan opc site. She is recorded as Maria because that was the Latin version of Mary and RC churches at that time held their services in Latin and recorded the entries in, sometimes very odd, Latin.
You will have to look at the local cemeteries to find where she was actually buried.
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Salford Cemeteries have given their cemetery records to Deceased on line and on their site is a Mary Ann Gavin buried 29 June1918 at a Greater Manchester Cemetery. That ties in with entry at All Souls which state she died on 26 June and was buried on the 29 June. To see the actual entry and where she was buried you will have to pay.
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Salford Cemeteries have given their cemetery records to Deceased on line and on their site is a Mary Ann Gavin buried 29 June1918 at a Greater Manchester Cemetery. That ties in with entry at All Souls which state she died on 26 June and was buried on the 29 June. To see the actual entry and where she was buried you will have to pay.
Thank you for that information.
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Thanks Gibel. :)
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I think she is Theresa Gavin, b Sheffield at 1901 3731/59/15 boarding with William Smith b Sheffield and family in Salford. Would that be her half brother?
If there is a William Smith on that same entry then I'm not sure it is her half brother. He was born in Suffolk and would have been 28 in 1901. Last thing I heard about William was on the 1891 census when he an "inmate" at the Market Weighton Roman Catholic reformatory in Yorkshire, have been sent there for 5 years in 1897. I didn't think he ever joined up with his family in Salford but I may be wrong.
In 1901, William Smith, 27 yrs states he is born Sheffield.
This looks like the family in 1911 where William Smith shows born Staffordshire :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW13-9W4
In 1921, however, there is William Smith, b 1872 , Suffolk with wife and children looking very like the 1911 family.
This looks to be the marriage
1896 Salford Register Office or Registrar attended
William Smith and Elizabeth Wolfe
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I think she is Theresa Gavin, b Sheffield at 1901 3731/59/15 boarding with William Smith b Sheffield and family in Salford. Would that be her half brother?
If there is a William Smith on that same entry then I'm not sure it is her half brother. He was born in Suffolk and would have been 28 in 1901. Last thing I heard about William was on the 1891 census when he an "inmate" at the Market Weighton Roman Catholic reformatory in Yorkshire, have been sent there for 5 years in 1897. I didn't think he ever joined up with his family in Salford but I may be wrong.
In 1901, William Smith, 27 yrs states he is born Sheffield.
This looks like the family in 1911 where William Smith shows born Staffordshire :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW13-9W4
In 1921, however, there is William Smith, b 1872 , Suffolk with wife and children looking very like the 1911 family.
This looks to be the marriage
1896 Salford Register Office or Registrar attended
William Smith and Elizabeth Wolfe
Thanks again for your help. I'm trying to pick through the information I've been getting here. Your link to the Staffordshire William Smith isn't my relative. He was definitely born/registered in Kedington, Suffolk. The other thing is that once his mother Mary Ann Smith moved to Sheffield and married Joseph Gavin, William appears in the 1881 census as William Smith but in the 1891 census during his 5 year spell at the reformatory school he was William Gavin. The press cuttings and reformatory records from his stealing offence also refer to him as William Gavin. I'm not sure if he would have reverted to Smith again but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, family members were not averse to changing surnames when it suited them.
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The 1911 family and the 1921 do look to be the same.
If it is him he gives Sheffield in 1901 which is understandable as he lived there.
People don’t always give the correct birthplace. It would be worth noting the family anyway just in case.
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If this is William - William Gavin 18 yrs , Roman Catholic Reformatory School, Holme, Yorkshire, he gives his birthplace as Sheffield.
1891 3902/50
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The 1911 family and the 1921 do look to be the same.
If it is him he gives Sheffield in 1901 which is understandable as he lived there.
People don’t always give the correct birthplace. It would be worth noting the family anyway just in case.
You are right. William would have been an infant, less than 3 yo when he moved from Suffolk to Sheffield. He would have little or no memory of it. I'm guessing that Mary Ann was disowned by her family when she had the child and that forced her to Sheffield for a new start. I need to check out if William really was staying with his half sister in 1901. I've not even looked at any 1921 census records as I don't have a "Find my Past" subscription yet. To be honest, most of the gaps in my knowledge are pre 1921. Thanks again for your help.
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1921 is only important at the moment because of the Suffolk birthplace for William really.
I had a quick look round earlier and 1901/1911 William and family and then the sighting of Mary Ann are in close proximity.
It is the mystery of Mary Anne’s whereabouts in 1901 and no death for Joseph that are problematic.
If they had fallen on hard times, you would think Mary Ann would be with her children.
Perhaps the couple separated.
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1921 is only important at the moment because of the Suffolk birthplace for William really.
I had a quick look round earlier and 1901/1911 William and family and then the sighting of Mary Ann are in close proximity.
It is the mystery of Mary Anne’s whereabouts in 1901 and no death for Joseph that are problematic.
If they had fallen on hard times, you would think Mary Ann would be with her children.
Perhaps the couple separated.
I think they must have separated. The children would all have left home by then. I do have Joseph in a Manchester workhouse in July 1905 (GBPRS_MAN_4509706_00014) so obviously fallen on hard times. I still think this:-
[Edit.... image removed]
Is Mary Ann Gavin in 1911. The stated birthplace is 12 miles from she was actually born but all other details match her.
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Yes I would agree re Mary. It is not having her in 1901 which is frustrating.
Which workhouse do you have Joseph in?
I have been puzzling over this for a while.
There is a burial at Philips Park cemetery, 29th March 1910 - Joseph Gavin, 66 yrs, labourer. (Born abt 1844).
The death age would depend on the informant so could be wrong.
I could not find a death but eventually found this:
Joseph Garvin - Prestwich district 1910
Lancs BMD shows area as Cheetham.
The grave record shows him as Gavin and Roman Catholic. It looks to be a public grave.
https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/
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If the workhouse was Crumpsall, that would fit with Prestwich registration district.
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Yes I would agree re Mary. It is not having her in 1901 which is frustrating.
Which workhouse do you have Joseph in?
I have been puzzling over this for a while.
There is a burial at Philips Park cemetery, 29th March 1910 - Joseph Gavin, 66 yrs, labourer. (Born abt 1844).
The death age would depend on the informant so could be wrong.
I could not find a death but eventually found this:
Joseph Garvin - Prestwich district 1910
Lancs BMD shows area as Cheetham.
The grave record shows him as Gavin and Roman Catholic. It looks to be a public grave.
https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/
The workhouse document is the Religious Creed Register for the New Bridge St Workhouse in Manchester. He was admitted twice.... 4/11/1904 - 24/4/1905 and again 13/6/1905 - 19/7/1905. I don't have his Irish birth details but census details put it at 1839 meaning that he would be about 66 when in the workhouse.
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Looks quite possible then.
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Any address/other information on those workhouse records?
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In 1901, William Smith, 27 yrs states he is born Sheffield.
This looks like the family in 1911 where William Smith shows born Staffordshire :-\
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW13-9W4
In 1921, however, there is William Smith, b 1872 , Suffolk with wife and children looking very like the 1911 family.
This looks to be the marriage
1896 Salford Register Office or Registrar attended
William Smith and Elizabeth Wolfe
Looks like I owe you an apology. Having looked at the 1911 William Smith census entry you mentioned, I can see now that it is indeed the same person as the 1901 census. Everything is identical apart from the place of birth. And the two properties are 100 m apart and another 100m to where their mother was living in 1911. Why did he say he was born in Staffordshire? Did someone else fill in the census form and got it wrong? I did manage to find Elizabeth Wolfe's birth entry on the Scotland's People site. She is a Glaswegian like myself. :)
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I’m just glad it is falling into place.
It is odd re Staffordshire maybe error - who knows!
Perhaps Mary Ann was ‘between hoyses’ on census night and just omitted.