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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: Lee Murphy on Monday 30 January 23 12:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I recently received my grandfather's military service records from the British Army. They tell me that he was sent to Stalag V111B on 18/9/1943 his POW number was 34243.
Apparently he was captured in Libya and reported missing on 1/1/1942 and the records say he was in Italian Hands Camp 65 P.M. 3450 on 23/11/42 and then transferred to German custody.
I wondered if there is any way to find out what happened to him during his time in Italian custody or in the Stalag V111B camp?
On his casualty card it says that on 13/5/1942 it was reported that:
"Survivor from one of our units sunk in he Mediterranean'' ref no: 4I0L ref no 4/805
Does this mean he was on an Italian ship that was sunk by the British navy?
He returned back to the UK in May 1945.
Thank you very much
Dylan Murphy
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The Italians were responsible for the majority of the British POWs captured in North Africa, including some of those initially captured by Rommel's Afirka Korps. The POWs were transferred to camps on the Italian mainland and, yes, the Royal Navy and RAF attacked quite a few Italian convoys on the route between North Africa and Italy, and they wouldn't have known which ships had POWs on board.
After the Allies invaded Southern Italy, the Italians surrendered on 3 September1943 but the Germans fought on in Italy right up to the Spring of 1945. They therefore took over the POWs previously held by the Italians and transferred them to Germany, to prevent the Italians from releasing them.
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You may want to look for your GF here:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14541141
He may have German POW record card(s). The index to these is online. You can see the actual card at Kew, or they will scan it for a fee.
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If you haven't already seen this detailed article on Stalag VIIIB on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_VIII-B), it's worth a look because it goes into details about the many Arbeitskommandos (work parties) into which British and other PoWs were placed. In particular, scroll down to the subsection on British PoWs at Auschwitz, which says: "The first 200 British PoWs arrived at Auschwitz in September 1943 but over the winter of 1943 another 1,400 British PoWs (mostly captured in North Africa) were transported to [Arbeitskommando] E715". Because the factory where the E715 PoWs were employed was next to the infamous concentration camp, many PoWs witnessed the atrocities there. Escapees from Stalag VIIIB reported this to the Allies. As a consequence, in the summer of 1944 the International Red Cross visited the camp housing the E715 PoWs, (not the concentration camp) and so there will be a Red Cross report outlining conditions in the camp at that time. This will certainly be available on the ICRC website (there are currently delays in fulfilling inquiries about WW2) and possibly also at TNA (see WO 224 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/h/C19017) in general, and particularly WO 224/127 (https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C168852)).
There is a three volume book on the subject of British PoWs in WW2, Prisoners of War by JB Hayward, held by TNA and the IWM among others: https://tna.koha-ptfs.co.uk/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=48771 Vol One contains details of British Army PoWs.
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Dear Andy, thank you so much for your help. I did find some information in the national archives about my grandfather:
Name: William Lawson.
Date of Birth: 27/11/1917.
Place of Birth: Huddersfield.
Service: British Army.
Rank: [Bombardier].
Regiment/Unit/Squadron: Royal Artillery.
Service Number: 853390.
Date of Capture: 23/11/1941.
Theatre of Capture: Libya.
Camp Name/Number: Stalag VIII B, Teschen.
PoW number: 34243.
Date of Death: [unspecified].
Number of Photographs: 1.
Number of Fingerprints: 1.
Number of X-rays: 0.
Number of Cards: 1.
I'm not sure how to proceed from here.
Any advice would be most appreciated.
Thank you so much
Dylan Murphy
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Apparently he was captured in Libya and reported missing on 1/1/1942 and the records say he was in Italian Hands Camp 65 P.M. 3450 on 23/11/42 and then transferred to German custody.
Is that a typo in your date there? I have him as a POW 26.11.1941
Regards
Hugh
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Hi Hugh, yes he was captured on 23/11/1941.
Thanks
Dylan Murphy
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Lee,
If you haven't already found it there's a separate Wikipedia entry for Stalag VIII D Teschen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalag_VIII-D) which was the earlier name for what became Stalag VIII B Teschen. The article reiterates that British Prisoners of War captured in North Africa from Stalag VIII D / B Teschen were employed in Arbeitskommando E 715 adjacent to Auschwitz concentration camp. It also says "In general, the conditions in the main Teschen camp and in all the sub-camps were deplorable."
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Hi Andy, thank you for this.
Sorry for asking. Do you have any idea how I might find out what happened to my grandfather at this POW camp?
Thank so much.
Kind Regards
Dylan Murphy
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Is this William Lawrence your grandfather?
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205018422 (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205018422)
Although it does say RAF...
Ignore! Your grandfather was William Lawson. Sorry!
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Dylan said: In his casualty card it says that on 13/5/1942 it was reported that:
"Survivor from one of our units sunk in he Mediterranean'' ref no: 4I0L ref no 4/805
Any chance you could put a piece of that card up for context please?
I am struggling with the date and the text 'one of our units' which suggests allied ship.
Regards
Hugh
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Do you have any idea how I might find out what happened to my grandfather at this POW camp?
Hi Dylan,
It may be that after he was repatriated your grandfather was asked to complete a questionnaire about his time in captivity. If he did it will be in series WO 344 at TNA. These records have not been indexed down to individuals and obviously have not been digitized. The TNA reference system is a little confusing at this point. William Lawson's questionnaire could have been included in one of four different files, so ideally you would neeed to check them all personally:
WO 344/387/1 Laban - Laws
WO 344/387/2 Laban - Leys
WO 344/181/1 Lawman - Laws
WO 344/181/2 Laws-Chapman - Lazzari
In addition, WO 208 contains special, more detailed questionnaires for PoWs who escaped or who were on escape committees etc. As previously mentioned the only other source of information about life in the camps was contained in the ICRC camp reports (see WO 224 and FO 916). Obviously these reports did not name individual PoWs and were just a snapshot of life at the time the ICRC representatives visited.
While it is the case that the Germans probably kept fairly detailed records on the PoWs, I'm not sure if these have survived and if they have where they might be found. The Americans captured and microfilmed an enormous quantity of German civil and military records and these films are now held in their National Archives in Maryland. The films clearly include some PoW records, but they only seem to cover US servicemen, and not all Allied PoWs. See here for more: https://www.archives.com/genealogy/records-world-war-ii-prisoners-of-war-index.html
The individual PoW cards at TNA (WO 416) only contain the bare minimum of information about each man, as you have seen from the information you have, sufficient to identify him and log his movements. At most there may be also be a record of any hospital admissions. That said, if you can get to TNA you will be able view the actual card and photographs etc for your grandfather in WO 416/218/336. This is preferable to ordering a copy because while you are there you can search the WO 344 (post release individual debrief questionnaires) and WO 224 (ICRC camp reports) records which also haven't yet been fully indexed and certainly aren't digitized.
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Dear Andy and Hugh, thank you both for your help , it is very much appreciated.
Sorry Hugh I'm not sure I understood your point. Are you suggesting my grandfather was on an allied ship that was sunk in the Med?
The Wiener Holocaust library has informed me that it contains 163 frames of records from the StatlagV111B Teschen camp, where my grandfather was sent, but sadly these are all in German.
Andy, thank you for your suggestions I will pursue these.
Thank you so much.
Kind Regards
Dylan Murphy
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Hi Dylan,
Sorry Hugh I'm not sure I understood your point. Are you suggesting my grandfather was on an allied ship that was sunk in the Med?
The comment: it was reported that:
"Survivor from one of our units sunk in he Mediterranean'' ref no: 4I0L ref no 4/805".
No, not really. I was just curious about that comment which to a Navy guy like me doesn't make much sense. He was in Axis captivity at this time but 'one of our units sunk in the Mediterranean' is ambiguous and that could be interpreted from a Navy point of view at least as one of our ships sunk in the Mediterranean. I prefer to see the actual document or part thereof to properly understand the overall context. I wouldn’t have written it like that but it may just be the way different services wrote up their files.
Regards
Hugh
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Dear Hugh, please find attached a photo from the record sent to me by the army of how my grandfather was in a ship that was sunk in the Med.
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Hi Dylan,
Army records are not really my area so I will defer to anyone else.
That entry still doesn’t make sense to me but I am thinking the date 13.5.42 is just the W.O. reporting that he was a survivor while in transportation from N. Africa but actual date unknown.
So, what do we know? We know he was reported missing in November 1941 then we know he was a POW in Rome reported Jan 1942 but date and camp unknown. So, sometime after November 1941, it is possible that he was on an Italian transport that was torpedoed by, I would suggest, one of our units.
So, worth checking which transports, that carried prisoners, were sunk during this period. One that comes to mind - SEBASTIANO VENIERO was torpedoed on 9.12.1941.
Regards
Hugh
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Hi Hugh, thank you for your helpful comments.
Where could I find out which transports, that carried prisoners, were sunk during this time period?
Is there an archive or museum I could consult?
Thank you for your time and help with this.
Regards
Dylan Murphy
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You posted the WO/416 index summary. It says there is a photograph.
For that alone, I would request the card. There may be other useful info on the card also. If it is convenient for you, you can visit Kew to see the card. Alternatively, they will scan and send for a fee.
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Thank you for that helpful suggestion, I will do that next week. Cheers
Dylan
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Where could I find out which transports, that carried prisoners, were sunk during this time period?
Hi Dylan,
This file at TNA Kew WO 361/133 - https://www.rootschat.com/links/01s4j/ is a casualty list for some of those ships sunk with PoW's aboard. As your g/father was a survivor this may or may not be of help but worth considering.
Also some information here: https://rommelsriposte.com/2010/05/22/the-tragedy-of-the-pows-killed-at-sea/
Regards
Hugh
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Hi Hugh, thank you so much for this information.
I've done a little research myself and cannot find evidence of any other Italian ships containing Allied POWs that were sunk in December 1941 besides the Sebastiano Venier.
Do you think the Royal Navy may have records of the ships they sunk in this area in December 1941?
It would be to confirm if he was on this ship.
I've read the link you provide from the Crusader Project and it sounds like only one ship was sunk in December 1941: the Sebastiano Venier. Do you think it fairly certain that this was the ship on which my grandfather sailed?
It also says that the men from this ship did not reach Italy until March 1942 yet the MOD records for my grandfather say he was in Rome in January 1942. I'm not sure how to explain that discrepancy.
Thank you so much for your help it means alot to my family. We are all still somewhat surprised that he never told us anything about his experinces and never mentioned he was a POW.
Thank you Dylan Murphy
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Hi Dylan,
I was not sure when the surviors reached Italy so you may need to keep an opened mind about that ship. I see you have approached Andreas on the Crusader site - you will be in good hands there I am sure.
Regards
Hugh
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Hi Hugh, I have received my grandfather's discharge papers from the MOD. Please see the attached document. It says that as a POW he was in Greece, Italy and Germany in that order. Does that not support the idea that he was on the Veniero?
Many thanks
Dylan
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It says that as a POW he was in Greece, Italy and Germany in that order. Does that not support the idea that he was on the Veniero?
Hi Lee,
As a researcher, I have learned only to have a lead and either rule it in or rule it out through continued research. So until it is verified one way or the other I tend to just keep going with the research. VENIERO has to be a contender but that is all it is at this stage.
Regards
Hugh