RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: coombs on Sunday 07 May 23 19:23 BST (UK)
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In the mid 1840s the railways boomed, and it made travelling around the UK for our ancestors much easier and faster. Actually the speeds of the trains was about 30 to 40mph so for example a train ride from Oxford to London in say 1860 probably took only a couple of hours.
For instance a Birmingham resident who wanted to move to London in 1855 could be in London in just a few hours on the train journey.
In 1851 my ancestor is listed as a railway labourer in Oxford in that year's census, as was a neighbour of his. I wonder if he was helping build the Birmingham And Oxford Junction Railway which opened fully in October 1852 (after the first phase, the Oxford to Banbury section opened in 1850). He may have just been a goods labourer though.
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Do you have him in 1841 and/or 1861? Does his occupation possibly have anything to do with railways in those censuses?
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Do you have him in 1841 and/or 1861? Does his occupation possibly have anything to do with railways in those censuses?
In 1841 he is an "M.S" so male servant. In 1861 he is a cricketer.
In his 1850 and 1852 children's baptisms he is just said to be "labourer", same for his 1855 and 1857 children's baptisms. So probably hard to say if he worked in railway construction or just a general labourer such as goods/maintenance or so. Or he may have only worked at the railways temporarily. TNA may have info on any surviving Birmingham to Oxford Junction workers records.
Looking at adjacent pages of the 1851 census the enumerator goes into a bit more detail about labourers, such as "in a coffee house" or "at a warehouse".
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Not easy, then!
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Seems not.
On another note one 3xgreat grandmother moved from a village just outside Oxford to Oxford then later to London then to Foulness in Essex in 1866. She had a sister in Bilton, Rugby. I am sure she would have gone to see her up there occasionally, or her sister came to Essex, and the whole journey would take about 6 hours if you factor in the journey from Essex to London, then having to get to the relevant London railway station (maybe Euston) to take her to Rugby.
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Probably take nearly as long now. ::)
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I have one side of my family who were involved with the railways almost from the beginning… I can tell where they moved around with the births of children who were recorded in many different towns along the routes.
The men of this side were all Boiler makers and that included the ones who moved to Australia!
So if anyone has family with the surname Harris ( later it became Harriss) we could be related! Also with the surname Austin.
It’s been a fun journey ( excuse the pun) following them around the country from Essex to Wiltshire and further north!
Caroline
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My Great-Grandfather, Abraham Garrad (1843-1897) born Braintree, Essex worked at various railway stations.
First at Maldon, Essex (1861 census), then at Melton, Suffolk (1871 census).
He then moved west and, by 1881 was to be found at Midsomer Norton, Somerset.
He stayed with the Somerset & Dorset Railway for the rest of his life.
In 1891 he was the Stationmaster at Shillingstone (aka Shilling Okeford).
His death was in 1897 at Pylle, Somerset.
My maternal great-grandfather moved from Kent to South Wales by train, looking for work.
His family and goods followed, but furniture was largely destroyed on the journey.
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Speed was something which drove the construction of the world's first inter-city railway, the Liverpool and Manchester line. Business people could travel from one place to the other for a meeting, and then return the SAME DAY.
I have a branch which went into the railways early, and moved around.
Thomas Dunbabin was born in 1818 at Sutton Weaver in Cheshire. By 1841 he was an Engine Tenter (fireman) at Derby, headquarters of the Midland Railway.
His first child was born at Brentwood in Essex in 1843. Brentwood at this time was the temporary terminus of the Eastern Counties Railway, which later became part of the Great Eastern. The following year he was back in Derby. He then returned to East Anglia, re-marrying in Wisbech following the death of his first wife. By 1851 he was settled in King's Lynn, Norfolk, where he died in 1894.
His brother George also went engine driving. In 1851 he was at Burton on Trent. He is recorded at Fenton in Stoke-on-Trent, Lowestoft in Sufflok, Orpington, Canterbury and Sydenham (all in Kent), Fulham in Middlesex, Olney in Buckinghamshire, and ended up at Sharpness Docks on the Severn estuary, where he died in 1897.
One of my great grandfathers was born in Lancaster, his birth being registered on 8 Mar 1871. By the census, the family are in Barrow in Furness, too far to walk but straightforward by train. His father died in Ulverston; his mother died 38 years later back in Lancaster. Several families I've researched also appear to "commute" along the north side of Morecambe Bay.
If there was work, there was a train to get you there.
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The coming of the railways brought big changes in rural life, not just in the ease of travel but in the availability of goods, notably coal for domestic use and fertiliser for agriculture, but also in verbal communication.
Engine drivers, fireman and guards who lived in major towns and cities could and did chat with local porters and local people, telling them stories of life in the city, and the industrial factories and the effect on young people must surely have inspired some to explore for themselves..
Mike
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My great gran would have travelled from Oxford to London to train as a domestic servant in a Stamford Hill convent, then by the 1911 census she was working as a servant in Bexhill in Sussex. I guess she got the London to Brighton line but got a train that turned off at Keymer towards Bexhill when she travelled down to Bexhill to start her new job. By about 1916 she was in Rochford, Essex.
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Anyone with railway ancestors might be interested in this database
https://www.railwayaccidents.port.ac.uk/the-accidents/
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I always think it a great pity that canals are now much underused.
Speed is of the essence these days, but how much traffic would be off the roads if canals were more used.
It is not impossible to bring them back into use , they are quite lovely now in lovely scenery , as evinced by an interesting programme recently on T.V.
They go right into town centres ,much is still in place from their hey day.
Viktoria.
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I always think it a great pity that canals are now much underused.
Speed is of the essence these days, but how much traffic would be off the roads if canals were more used.
It is not impossible to bring them back into use , they are quite lovely now in lovely scenery , as evinced by an interesting programme recently on T.V.
They go right into town centres ,much is still in place from their hey day.
Viktoria.
Cardboard and paper were brought up the canal by barge from Holland for our box-making firm.
The business ran to the 1970s, it was still coming by the same route.
My great grandfather, Alfred Alexander Keats, was born in London, not too far from St. Pancras. He travelled to York, his first marriage was there. He was a musician then, but I do wonder if he worked for the LNER. Later, he came to Wigston Magna where he met my Great Grandma. They eloped and married at Ovendon, Yorkshire where he's still a musician. My Grandad was born at Leeds; more children followed, 2 at Leeds and 2 more at Wigston. The family finally settled in Leicester, living close to London Road Station, where Alfred was a Commercial Clerk. This rather disguises that he was a Railway Detective as related by Grandad and his sisters. Maybe it was thought wise to keep this fact quiet? I love Frith's painting The Railway Station, I like to imagine
the figure depicted was Alfred.
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Hi, Does anyone know how long the train journey from London to Scotland would have been in the mid 1850s? How much it cost? And what the trip would have been like?
There are two children living in London (Soho) with their father and step mother on the 1851 census. Their father died in 1853 when they would have been 8 and 10. In 1861 the youngest is living with her Aunt (my ancestor) in rural Lanarkshire, Scotland. (The eldest also went to Scotland but I haven't yet found him in 1861.)
I assume that train would be how they got to Scotland but would two children have been sent alone? They had another aunt in London but she had 6 kids of her own so unlikely to have been able to take them.
thanks
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I assume that train would be how they got to Scotland but would two children have been sent alone? They had another aunt in London but she had 6 kids of her own so unlikely to have been able to take them.
thanks
There was a time when people could be posted - tag round their neck with stamps on. Boys were often sent home at end of term from boarding school by post. That would mean going in the baggage car. They had to provide their own food and drink, but it was cheap ...
Regards
Chas
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Hi, Does anyone know how long the train journey from London to Scotland would have been in the mid 1850s? How much it cost? And what the trip would have been like?
There are two children living in London (Soho) with their father and step mother on the 1851 census. Their father died in 1853 when they would have been 8 and 10. In 1861 the youngest is living with her Aunt (my ancestor) in rural Lanarkshire, Scotland. (The eldest also went to Scotland but I haven't yet found him in 1861.)
I assume that train would be how they got to Scotland but would two children have been sent alone? They had another aunt in London but she had 6 kids of her own so unlikely to have been able to take them.
thanks
Your first question is interesting and I cannot give a definitive answer but I would say perhaps a day to travel from London to Scotland in the 1850s. Unless they stopped off somewhere overnight on the way.
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There's an ongoing project on the history of the development of transport, this link includes sample chapters and animations showing the year by year expansion of the railroads and turnpike roads.
https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/transport/onlineatlas/ (https://www.campop.geog.cam.ac.uk/research/projects/transport/onlineatlas/)
The third chapter includes isochrones, maps whose lines reflect the distance travelled in days at a given speed.
S_L
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John Shortridge was a stonemason by trade, who left Liverpool for Glossop about 1840, to work on building the railway to Sheffield. He settled in Sheffield, probably built Wybourn House. His eldest daughter Sarah was married 31 March 1851. On the census she is still at home with the family, but father is absent. But the census was 30 March, wedding next day, but no father?
He was found in a hotel in Covent Garden - "Public Works Contractor". On the morning of the 31st he must have taken a cab to St. Pancras, travelled via the Midland railway to Eckington, N. Derbyshire; then changed on to his own railway (MS&L) to Sheffield Bridgehouses (temporary station) and taken a cab to Wybourn House - in time to get changed and escort Sarah to her wedding! In the afternoon perhaps?
He had complete faith in the railway system as it then was.
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Came across an ad in the Edinburgh Evening Courant in 1851, for the Caledonian Railway, which would go via Carlisle.
RETURN TICKETS TO LONDON AND BACK BY THE NIGHT MAILS EVERY EVENING
Return Tickets..
Leaving Edinburgh at 9.15pm and Glasgow at 9.5pm
FIRST CLASS £5, SECOND CLASS £4.
To return within 14 days by the Train leaving Euston at 8.45pm.
There were also special Excursion Trains every Friday evening with fares £4 and £3, with 3rd class at £2, return in either 7 or 14 days.
Assuming an average speed of 30mph, the 400-ish miles from Glasgow or Edinburgh would take less than 14 hours. Peak speeds could be in excess of 50mph, but fuel costs would be lower at less.
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Whew!
When most working class people earned about 50 pence( ten shillings in those days ) a week that was expensive .
Granted some people did stay in their area but some did travel, for work.
Given that the Textile industry was leaving the home and going into mills ,
people had to travel as Cottage industries were dying out because broader cloth was wanted.
The oldest Railway Station in The World is in Manchester, it is very close to The Museum of Science and Industry.
Viktoria.
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14 hours in 1851 from London to Scotland on a train, about 300 miles or so. That sounds right, and again it is nothing at all like sailing on a ship from London to Sydney in 1851, in a 12000 mile or more voyage to the other side of the world.
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The reason I looked for 1851 was because that was the year of the Great Exhibition.
Research has revealed that people would put a little away each week (often in a "club") to pay for the visit to the Crystal Palace, and accommodation whilst in London.
Thomas Cook arranged for 150000 such visits.
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I found Bradshaw's timetable for 1850 on this site: https://timetableworld.com/timetables.php
On p.96 it says London to Carlisle was 11.5 hours or 9.5 express and another 4 to Glasgow or Edinburgh.
I can't find the fares from London but (if I'm reading it right) Carlisle to Glasgow was 13s 2d in second class. Would there have been children's fares then? It's a long journey to be in the baggage car if the kids were posted!
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That's useful. Bradshaw's 1850 (pp 64, 82) allows me to trace John Shortridge's journey at #18 above. First departure was from Euston Square at 6.15am. There was a 20 minute pause at Derby - for coal and water? - arriving Eckington 1.50pm, depart 1.58pm. It is not clear what time the connection arrived in Sheffield, probably before 2.30pm.
If he had stayed on the Midland and travelled via Rotherham, then 6 miles back to Sheffield (Wicker), he would not have arrived until 2.50pm.
A late afternoon wedding I think.
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I'd be very surprised if the hotel owner filled in the census form on the Sunday which was the actual census day. I imagine the guests would have been asked if they would be there on Sunday in the week leading up to the census. If that was the case then he could have taken a train on Sunday and have been at the wedding with plenty of time to spare.
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So he might have been on the census twice. The odd thing was the household at Wybourn House consisted of wife and children, cook and maid, followed by the eldest son Richard and his wife who had married the previous year. They had been added at the end as if they had arrived late. They lived in Barnsley, from which there was no through railway service yet, so had probably stayed the night.
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Good evening,
My great gran would have travelled from Oxford to London to train as a domestic servant in a Stamford Hill convent, then by the 1911 census she was working as a servant in Bexhill in Sussex. I guess she got the London to Brighton line but got a train that turned off at Keymer towards Bexhill when she travelled down to Bexhill to start her new job. By about 1916 she was in Rochford, Essex.
She would have 4 choices of route;
London to Hastings via Wivelsfield (Burgess Hill), Lewes, Polegate and on to Bexhill. This may have required a train change.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, East Grinstead and Lewes etc.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, Ashurst, Rotherfield, Mayfield, Heathfield, Hailsham and onto the coast line. This may have required going into Eastbourne to change trains.
The 4th route was further east, Tunbridge, Tonbridge Wells, Robertsbridge, Battle and to Bexhill but at the other station.
All of those could have involved changing trains at that time although I think the first one always had a through train. My brother was the expert on trains in the south east but no longer with us.
John915
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14 hours in 1851 from London to Scotland on a train, about 300 miles or so. That sounds right, and again it is nothing at all like sailing on a ship from London to Sydney in 1851, in a 12000 mile or more voyage to the other side of the world.
It still takes 5-6 days to travel by rail across Canada, not counting stops. The Canadian Pacific Railway was completed in 1885 and certainly helped open up the west to settlers. Unfortunately our rail system is not used extensively for travel but more for shipping.
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Would there have been children's fares then? It's a long journey to be in the baggage car if the kids were posted!
The same advert says "Children under Ten Years of Age will be taken at Half Fares".
At the time ten year olds would probably be working. :(
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Good morning,
One thing to remember from the early days of rail travel. Was the lack of facilities on a train. No corridor coaches in those days, no buffet car. So people may have had to leave the train quickly at a station for relief. Packed lunches would have to be taken. Or people would have to actually break their journey for an hour or so then resume on a later train.
In the mid 60s I regularly travelled from Sussex to Dorset. A journey involving several changes. Cooksbridge to Lewes, Lewes to Brighton, Brighton to Portsmouth, Portsmouth to Southampton and Southampton to Wool. The first 4 were all electric non corridor trains. It wasn't until Southampton the train from London was a corridor train, drawn by steam. Military travel warrants were always by the cheapest route so Cooksbridge to London, then to Wool was not allowed.
John915
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Good evening,
My great gran would have travelled from Oxford to London to train as a domestic servant in a Stamford Hill convent, then by the 1911 census she was working as a servant in Bexhill in Sussex. I guess she got the London to Brighton line but got a train that turned off at Keymer towards Bexhill when she travelled down to Bexhill to start her new job. By about 1916 she was in Rochford, Essex.
She would have 4 choices of route;
London to Hastings via Wivelsfield (Burgess Hill), Lewes, Polegate and on to Bexhill. This may have required a train change.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, East Grinstead and Lewes etc.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, Ashurst, Rotherfield, Mayfield, Heathfield, Hailsham and onto the coast line. This may have required going into Eastbourne to change trains.
The 4th route was further east, Tunbridge, Tonbridge Wells, Robertsbridge, Battle and to Bexhill but at the other station.
All of those could have involved changing trains at that time although I think the first one always had a through train. My brother was the expert on trains in the south east but no longer with us.
John915
Thanks for the info. Yes, London to Hastings seems the likeliest route. She was christened in a Hackney church in March 1910 aged 14, while living at a Hackney convent at 121 Stamford Hill. As said she must have been training for domestic service, then got a job in Sussex by the 1911 census.
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Good evening,
My great gran would have travelled from Oxford to London to train as a domestic servant in a Stamford Hill convent, then by the 1911 census she was working as a servant in Bexhill in Sussex. I guess she got the London to Brighton line but got a train that turned off at Keymer towards Bexhill when she travelled down to Bexhill to start her new job. By about 1916 she was in Rochford, Essex.
She would have 4 choices of route;
London to Hastings via Wivelsfield (Burgess Hill), Lewes, Polegate and on to Bexhill. This may have required a train change.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, East Grinstead and Lewes etc.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, Ashurst, Rotherfield, Mayfield, Heathfield, Hailsham and onto the coast line. This may have required going into Eastbourne to change trains.
The 4th route was further east, Tunbridge, Tonbridge Wells, Robertsbridge, Battle and to Bexhill but at the other station.
All of those could have involved changing trains at that time although I think the first one always had a through train. My brother was the expert on trains in the south east but no longer with us.
John915
Thanks for the info. Yes, London to Hastings seems the likeliest route. She was christened in a Hackney church in March 1910 aged 14, while living at a Hackney convent at 121 Stamford Hill. As said she must have been training for domestic service, then got a job in Sussex by the 1911 census.
Good evening,
My great gran would have travelled from Oxford to London to train as a domestic servant in a Stamford Hill convent, then by the 1911 census she was working as a servant in Bexhill in Sussex. I guess she got the London to Brighton line but got a train that turned off at Keymer towards Bexhill when she travelled down to Bexhill to start her new job. By about 1916 she was in Rochford, Essex.
She would have 4 choices of route;
London to Hastings via Wivelsfield (Burgess Hill), Lewes, Polegate and on to Bexhill. This may have required a train change.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, East Grinstead and Lewes etc.
London to Hastings via Hurst Green, Ashurst, Rotherfield, Mayfield, Heathfield, Hailsham and onto the coast line. This may have required going into Eastbourne to change trains.
The 4th route was further east, Tunbridge, Tonbridge Wells, Robertsbridge, Battle and to Bexhill but at the other station.
All of those could have involved changing trains at that time although I think the first one always had a through train. My brother was the expert on trains in the south east but no longer with us.
John915
Thanks for the info. Yes, London to Hastings seems the likeliest route. She was christened in a Hackney church in March 1910 aged 14, while living at a Hackney convent at 121 Stamford Hill. As said she must have been training for domestic service, then got a job in Sussex by the 1911 census.
From the Hackney area she could have got a train due south to Wapping. Through the London tunnel to Rotherhythe, one of Brunels doings, then down to the eastern route via Tonbridge etc. Although it became part of the underground in 1913. It has recently been refurbished and put into mainline use again.
John915