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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: raa on Wednesday 07 June 23 07:34 BST (UK)
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George Hawkins married Margaret Tooley 1830 in plymouth 4 children Eliza 1831 Mary Ann 1833 Charles 1835 George 1837 all born plymouth 1841 cencus in plymouth says hes porter born devon 1806 but as all ages round up or down could be couple years either way -1848 Margaret Tolley Marries a Charles Hawkins b 1810 plymouth states shes a widow i cannot find a birth or death For George hes my 3rd great grandfather until i find his birth cannot go further back on my tree any help appreciated
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Probable burial 13 Feb 1842 Plymouth
George HOCKINGS (39 years)
Abode Looe Street (this matches address on 1841 census)
Witnesses at the 1830 marriage Ralph RIDER and Robert LEWIS
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Ancestry Census 1841
Southern side of Looe Street from Batter St to Vauxhall Street
HAWKINS George 35y porter
HAWKINS Margaret 35y
HAWKINS Eliza 10y
HAWKINS Mary 5y
HAWKINS Charles 5y all born in county....others families with this household
I am not seeing a son George with this family.
Ancestry Census 1851
32 Looe Street
HAWKINS George 41y Greenwich Pensioner b. Plymouth Devon
HAWKINS Margaret 40y b. Plymouth Devon
HAWKINS Charles 15y blacksmith (app) b. Plymouth Devon
HAWKINS Eliza 20y dressmaker b. Plymouth Devon
Greenwich pensioner?. Has George HAWKINS been in the Royal Navy?
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George died 1838
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Record details
Name Margaret Hawkins
Age 40
Estimated Birth Year 1811
Relation Wife
Spouse's Name Charles Hawkins
Gender Female
Where born Plymouth, Devon, England
Civil parish Plymouth Charles the Martyr
Ecclesiastical parish Sutton on Plym
County/Island Devon
Country England
Registration district Plymouth
Sub-registration district Charles
ED, institution, or vessel 1f
Neighbors View others on page
Household schedule number 175
Piece 1878
Folio 179
Page number 40
Household members
Name Age
Charles Hawkins 41
Margaret Hawkins 40
Eliza Hawkins 20
Charles Hawkins 15
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something verry wrong somewheres i have marriage cert she remarried 1848 saying shes widow
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If you have a marriage certificate, 1848, can you please list all the information on the document.
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Ancestry Census 1851
32 Looe Street
HAWKINS George 41y Greenwich Pensioner b. Plymouth Devon
HAWKINS Margaret 40y b. Plymouth Devon
HAWKINS Charles 15y blacksmith (app) b. Plymouth Devon
HAWKINS Eliza 20y dressmaker b. Plymouth Devon
The above is incorrect. Head of household in 1851 in CHARLES Hawkins.
Charles HAWKEN died 1858
His probate index states “Sergeant in H M Corps of Sappers and Miners who died 7 May 1858 at Koonch in Bengal, India. Probate granted to Margaret HAWKEN of the Parish of Charles Plymouth, widow of the said deceased.”
Could Charles and George have been brothers? – that idea might be worth further investigation.
To this end, I suggest you get the marriage certificate for Charles and Margaret's marriage in 1848, as this should give you Charle's father's name and occupation.
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yes wrong name on cencus the death is interesting i wonder if when he got married to Margaret Tooley it was miss spelling might answer i have nothing pop up on dna
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No such thing as correct or incorrect spelling at this time. Names were written as heard.
You should expect various different spelling possibilities/ versions.
George died with his surname spelled as “Hockings”. Perhaps that's what Hawkins sounds like with a Devon accent. :)
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There is a baptism in 1799 Stoke Damerel (Plymouth) that might be a possibility for George Hawkins.
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yes i have the marriage cert for Charles says his father William Hawkins carpenter both Charles and Margaret give there adress as 32 looe st plymouth Mrgarets Father Joh Tooley labourer
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the 1799 baptism is interesting right area but im not helped with 41 cencus saying born 1806 and birth devon all ages on the cencis for there ages end in 0 or 5 so could be 2-3 either way on his birth
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George’s age at death suggests an 1802 birth. So 1799 baptism is within realms of possibility.
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thanks for all info
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Children of George HAWKINS and Margaret TOOLEY
Eliza HAWKINS baptised 6th Feb 1831 Plymouth
Parents: Margaret & George – labourer
Abode Looe Street
Mary Ann HAWKINS baptised 8th May 1833 Plymouth
Parents: Margaret & George – labourer
Abode Looe Street
Charles HAWKINS baptised 26th July 1835 Plymouth
Parents: Margaret & George – labourer
Abode Looe Street
George HAWKINS baptised 24th Dec 1837 Plymouth (burial 27 Nov 1838)
Parents: Margaret & George – labourer
Abode Looe Street
Interesting to see that the family were at Looe Street for such a long time.- and remained there after Margaret's second marriage. Does it add weight to the possibility of George and Charles being brothers?
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In 1841 census Margaret HAWKINS is age 35
In 1851 census Margaret HAWKINS is age 40
In 1861 census Margaret HAWKINS (nee TOOLEY) age 57 is living Lambhay Hill Plymouth.
She was born in Rattery - Possible baptism there for her in 1803; daughter of John and Margaret.
She died in 1869 at age 66 (so birth about 1803)
Her birth year varies quite considerably through the census records. Thinking 1803 is most likely correct for Margaret, therefore 1802 or earlier is probable for husband George.
We don’t know where in Devon George Hawkins was born – should not assume it was Plymouth.
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yes i have the marriage cert for Charles says his father William Hawkins carpenter both Charles and Margaret give there adress as 32 looe st plymouth Mrgarets Father Joh Tooley labourer
It would be helpful to have the complete information from the marriage record.
Who were the witnesses?
Does Charles sign his name or give his mark X?
What is Charles' occupation on the marriage?
What are the ages of bride and groom?
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Charles is a seaman age is not clear looks like 41 on51 cencus gives his birth as 1810 and when he died in feb 1855 age is 44 so birth i think 1810/1811 he signed his marriage cert witness Eliza Hawkins that would be step daughter and william blight underhill Margaret leaves a mark ages isnt clear on her death 1869 gives her death as 66 which would match up for her birth 1803 rattery she died at 32 southside st plymouth Charles is not relation and he had no children with Margaret but be interesting if hes Georges Brother 1830 they never gave out bride grooms parents
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cannot find birth for charles Hawkins around 1810 plymouth im starting to wonder if theres a miss spelling for his birth also odd on my dna nothing pops up on my Hawkins George i should have matches with as hes my 3rd great grandfather
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longshot George slocom Hawkins baptised 5 oct 1806 Sampford Courtenay, Devon mother Ann oooh and George Hawkins baptism 1803 staverton mother Mary south hams thats not far outside plymouth so a possible
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if George and Charles were brothers still doesnt solve problem finding there borths theres no birth in plymouth 1811 for Charles Hawkins makes me wonder if either one is who they say they are
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I think it is a fairly good possibility that George and Charles were brothers – given that they seem to have been sharing the same address in Looe Street. If that is the case then knowing about Charles, gives you information about George that you didn’t have before – ie. born in Plymouth to father named William (a carpenter). Unfortunately early baptisms will not state the father’s occupation. But if you find baptisms for both a George around 1802-03 and a Charles around 1810-1811 with the same parents, then you might feel confident you have the correct ones. Be prepared to consider various spellings.
As you say, NO baptisms for either George and Charles have been found, but there do seem to be gaps in the records. For example, I could see burials in Charles the Martyr, Plymouth, but not baptisms for the time of interest. In my experience FindMyPast has the best coverage of Devon records – so I would try to see what records you can access there. Using FamilySearch, Ancestry and FreeReg, I could find no relevant baptisms.
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I did some work on the witnesses to both marriages today, as often these turn out to be blood relations and can be important leads - apart from Eliza Hawkins.
William Blight UNDERHILL was born 1812 Plymouth. His parents Hugh and Grace were residents of Looe Street.
Ralph RYDER/ RIDER was born 1797 Modbury Devon. He was a cabinet maker – & his father Ralph was a mariner
Ralph Married Mary STONEMAN abt 1823
In 1841 living in Charles the Martyr Plymouth (Jubilee St)
In 1851 living in Charles the Martyr Plymouth (Salem St)
2nd wife jane PEPPERELL (married 1839)
Robert LEWIS was born abt 1804 Plymouth. He was a stone mason – & his father was a builder.
Robert married Georgiana BOWDITCH 1829 Plymouth
In 1841 living in Charles the Martyr Plymouth (North St)
In 1851 living in Charles the Martyr Plymouth (Green St)
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Just a note for future reference - Charles says his father William Hawkins carpenter
There is a William Hawkins in the Plymouth workhouse in 1841 (age 65 – born abt 1776) and a baptism for him 1776 in Charles the Martyr. No way of knowing if this William is of interest at this stage.
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Charles is a seaman
Charles Hawkins was in the Royal Navy.
As we have seen before with some men in the RN, there appears to be a record (or records?) for him in the Merchant Seamen's Tickets
In BT 113
Issued at Lee, 10 March 1846, when he was on HMS Collingwood
It says that Charles Hawkins was born in Plymouth, Devon, in March 1811 (no day given)
Capacity Seaman
Went to sea in 1829
In Royal Navy 17 years
When unemployed resides at Plymouth
Age when ticketed 35
There is a description of him, including that he was 5 feet 1˝ inches tall, brown eyes, couldn't write.
He is also in the Royal Navy allotment books in 1848 (from image)
HMS Powerful
Chas Hawkins
Quality AB
Allotment paid to Wife Margaret
Married Plymouth August 1848
Residence of the Party allotted to 32 Looe Street Plymouth
He marked X
Index here
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16483712
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From the allotment books again, this seems to be him in 1838
HMS Malabar
Chas Hawkins
AB
Allotment paid to Mother Mary Ryder
Residence of the Party allotted to 32 Looe St. Plymouth
his X mark
Indexed here
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C15666403
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Was Mary was still around in 1841? :-\
In the census there is one in Batter Street, St. Charles
Mary Rider, 70, born in County
In ED 15, just 8 census pages before our George Hawkins in Looe Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQTR-TKJ
Not totally sure.
You would think that a widowed Mary Hawkins (or similar) married a Ryder/Rider after the birth of Charles, but I am not seeing anything.
We do of course have Ralph Rider witnessing George's marriage.
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possible marriages
Stoke Damerel 16 Jan 1812 Peter Pinwill house carpenter & Mary Hockings widow, witnesses James Pitten(?) & Wm Roberts
Burial St Andrew Plymouth 2 Dec 1821 Peter Pinwill 73
St Andrew Plymouth 27 March 1823 Ralph Rider labourer & widower & Mary Pinwell widow, witnesses Benjamin & James Boulter
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thats great info thanks everyone
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interesting on all 4 childrens baptisms it gives Georges occupation labourer but on marriages of 2 of the children gives georges occupation as mariner so some stage might have been in navy
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From the allotment books again, this seems to be him in 1838
HMS Malabar
Chas Hawkins
AB
Allotment paid to Mother Mary Ryder
Residence of the Party allotted to 32 Looe St. Plymouth =interesting if Charles is sending money to his mother at 32 looe st George Hawkins is living at that adress think massive chance there brothers thanks for that info Jonw65
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Well done to osprey for finding those marriages.
It does indeed look like George and Charles were probably brothers. Although of course Margaret shouldn't then have married Charles, as it was illegal!
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Name William Hocking
Gender Male
Marriage Date 8 Feb 1785
Marriage Place Stoke Damerel,Devon,England
Spouse
Mary Gimblett
FHL Film Number 916921 Possible
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was it illegal them days to marry someone then marry his brother yes great find with marriages just need now find original marriage to William Hawkings /Hockings
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yes, only legalised by Deceased Brother's Widow Marriage Act of 1921.
https://vlex.co.uk/vid/deceased-brother-s-widow-808486549
On the later marriages, Mary made her mark instead of signing.
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William Hockings
Gender Male
Marriage Date 9 Mar 1795
Marriage Place Staverton,Devon,England
Spouse
Mary Leaman
FHL Film Number 917532
Save another possible
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If Charles Hawkins was born March 1811, and his mother Mary Hockings remarried in Jan 1812, there is only a small time frame for the death of William Hawkins.
This is the only one I could see: ???
William Giles HOCKINGS burial at Stoke D - 7 Nov 1810 (age not recorded)
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think that one might be child death
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think only way im going to find George Hawkins /Hawkings/Hockings or whatever name he was born with is hope something pops up on dna on thru lines as yes nothing but thats if i have right name hes using Hawkins but that night not be his surname i have lot of dna matches but most people with dna matches do not have a tree thanks you everyone for input ive been trying to find out who is parents are for years now with help on here its possible that Charles is his brother and Charles was sending money to his mother who was living at same adress as George im gettung closer thanks again everyone
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Name George Hawkins
Sex Male
Mother's Name Mary Hawkins
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Christening
Event Date 16 Jan 1803
Event Place Staverton, Devon, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Staverton, Devon, England i wonder if this is him
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Name George Hawkins
Sex Male
Mother's Name Mary Hawkins
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Christening
Event Date 16 Jan 1803
Event Place Staverton, Devon, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original) Staverton, Devon, England i wonder if this is him
This is the child of a single woman named Mary Hawkins.
Staverton is a fair way from Plymouth.
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I think we have put more of the jigsaw puzzle together, but some of the pieces seem to be missing :(
What happened to Mary? She must have been alive in 1838. And her third husband. I can only see a Ralph Ryder who died in Plympton workhouse in 1844 :-\
I wouldn't take it as certain that Charles was born in 1811, the ages they give in those kind of records are often a year or so out. So it could have been 1810.
Are the facts he gave about his father on his marriage correct? Sometimes they are not. And bear in mind that Mary's second husband was a carpenter.
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There is a burial for a Mary RIDER in Charles the Martyr, Plymouth on 14 July 1839
Her age is 49 (may not be quite accurate)
Address is Lower St (is this a mis-hearing of Looe Street?) ???
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i agree bits puzzle still missing great effort everyone
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"was it illegal them days to marry someone then marry his brother yes great find with marriages just need now find original marriage to William Hawkings /Hockings"
Whether illegal or not, it certainly happened, at least if you switch the sexes around. My great-great-great-grandfather Ambrose Bowden married Joan Booth, who bore him one son. When she died he married her sister Elizabeth, who had her first child six days after the marriage.
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yes need find that marriage we know hes Charles Father but is he Georges all the children born were Georges hes my main interest hopefully there brothers as William is only lead i have