RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: grizzly1 on Thursday 21 September 23 17:57 BST (UK)
-
Hi, Im struggling to find a marriage date for Patrick Martin to Sheila Dunne in the mid 1940s, the couple I believe were nearby neighbors, Patrick from 27 Harolds Cross Cottages, and Shelia from nearby No 1 Darley St.
Patrick was born on 4-3-1923 father's name John/Jack, (I believe at No 27 Harolds cross cottages but not 100%) his father worked for Guinness and may have been a cooper.
Patrick would later also be employed by Guinness as a 'processman' and from their records he joined on 10-1-1945, they gave Sheila Martin as his wife (I dont know if this would be added on his record when first employed or later date ? hence my guess as to year of marriage, their eldest son born 1949 )
Sheila Dunne was born 1928 (no day/month) but the belief is at 1 Darley St.
I have checked the 1911 census for family surnames for both Harolds Cross Cottages and Darley st in hope that the family had lived there but drew a blank.
I also paid a visit to the GRO Research room today in hope of finding either or both Birth and Marriage cert but the offices were not open (2pm).
I would as always be very grateful for any info forwarded in order to continue.
Thanking you.
-
There are both names (Dunne & Martin) on the Census record but as we do not have the family names that you have I cannot tell which would be your family's names. There are 13 entries for Martin at Harolds cross and 18 for Dunne. For the 1901 census these may be young children and then had children 1923/28.
You advise that Patrick Martin's father was John or Jack. Do you know what his mother's name was?
I am wondering if the searches are being too specific as to location at this stage bearing mind the lack of info about the parents of Patrick or Sheila.
Do you know if they had brothers or sisters or if the child born in 1949 had siblings or cousins? Have you got information on those names? Have you searched for the parents of the cousins or sought the birth certificates of siblings of the child born in 1949? Sometimes in searching you need to search laterally instead of linearly.
In 1923 a child called Sheila Kathleen Dunne was born and died aged 14 days. It is possible that her parents may have named a subsequent child Sheila. In this case the mother's name was Julia Dunne. They lived at 29 Thomas St Dublin and her father was a grocer's assistant.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1923/05054/4384695.pdf
This may
be the marriage for the parents of Patrick based solely on the location mentioned of Harold's Cross
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09175/5318280.pdf
The names were John Martin & Christina Morris. He is a clerk and son of a butcher, James Martin and she is the daughter of Edward Morris who is a clerk.
They were married at Dolphins Barn church
https://www.joyceproject.com/notes/040041dolphinsbarn.htm
https://libertiesdublin.ie/dolphins-barn/
Are any of these names familar?
-
Continuing with this tenuous searching.....
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/New_Kilmainham/Turvey_Avenue/61140/
This shows a 15 year old Christina Morris, a scholar living with her brothers and sisters in Turvey Ave Dublin. The head of the house is Ellie Morris. An Ellie Morris signed the marriage certifctae of the john martin/Christina Morris marriage I found. These seem to link up but whether these are your people????????
-
Hi Shanreagh, thank you for your reply.
I have scoured the locality on 1901-1911 census for any links through Christian names with both Surnames, but basically came up blank, I was informed by my friend (whom I'm carrying out this search for) that he believes that Patrick's father John/Jack was also employed by Guinness's as a 'cooper', so that may help in dismissing the marriage lead for Dolphins barn church?
One angle im looking at is the addresses of Darley St and Harold Cross Cottages, I think im correct in believing that they may have been Dublin artisan dwellings and of a decent standard for the era, and if I'm correct they would have been rented to workers in steady employment such as Guinness employees/Tradesmen who could afford the rent ? that in itself would narrow down any census search on the Martin side?
-
Thanks.....I go back to the advice I gave earlier and that would be to ask your friend to note down the names of aunts, cousins and siblings then search on those. Presumably they have the birth certificate of 1949 and any death certificates of their parents? These would be a first step.
What are the details on that birth certicate please as to parents' names, who registered it etc. Where the birth took place.
The trouble with looking at the census is that the people who later married are the children of the householders...ie it is starting on a search one generation back from the people who later married and had the child born in 1949 and if you do this there are bound to be problems.
-
Have just ordered a copy of Patrick's Birth cert, and I can work from there, will also again pay a visit to GRO on its opening day in order to source the Marriage cert for the couple.
Thank you again for your input.
-
Have just ordered a copy of Patrick's Birth cert, and I can work from there, will also again pay a visit to GRO on its opening day in order to source the Marriage cert for the couple.
Thank you again for your input.
That is great and will give you a good start. Come back and we'll keep going......having done all this looking on various databases I am keen to see which set of people he belongs to! ;D
-
@Grizzly1 Are you sure they were married in Ireland? Sometimes people married abroad - as near as Holyhead, but also in Scotland or England.
-
yes i wondered that too and also wondered if in fact they married at all?
Grizzly if you can search in the Newspaper Archives you may find a death notice for either/both of them.....
-
Taking a look at Familysearch.org - the Mormon website that holds many, many records of lives and deaths internationally - might give some leads, with the amount of information you've already got.
-
Taking a look at Familysearch.org - the Mormon website that holds many, many records of lives and deaths internationally - might give some leads, with the amount of information you've already got.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/
Free to use - just need to create an account and sign in ;)
-
You mention Patrick’s records from Guinness so may already have checked these for John/Jack.
This site https://www.guinness-storehouse.com/en/discover/find-your-family shows 5 x John Martins but no ‘Jack’.
One would be too young. There is a John b 1892 and died 1972 who was employed in ‘Cooperage’. You could check these people to see if anything comes up.
-
Dublin Evening Herald, 9 July 1948: DUNNE (nee O'Byrne) - First Anniversary - In sad and loving memory of my dear wife, Margaret Dunne, late 1 Darley Street, Harold's Cross, died July 9, 1947 ... Inserted by her loving husband, sons, daughters, brothers and sister-in-law.
Death registration: https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1947/04580/4211192.pdf
The only Dunne / Margaret O'Byrne marriage I've found so far is this one:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09185/5322295.pdf
-
... The only Dunne / Margaret O'Byrne marriage I've found so far is this one:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1923/09185/5322295.pdf
Here's the Dunne family in 1911 that matches the groom's address in 1923:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Harty_Place/81861/
-
Here's the Dunne family in 1911 that matches the groom's address in 1923:
http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Wood_Quay__part_of_/Harty_Place/81861/
The couple in that census return were James Dunne and Mary Anne Fury:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1897/02107/1802334.pdf (William's birth)
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10598/5860896.pdf (marriage)
-
With the usual health warning about accuracy, there's a tree on the 'Ancestry' website showing a Cecilia Dunne (1927 - 1987) marrying a Patrick Martin of 37 Harolds Cross on 27 March 1951 at Rosary Church Harolds Cross, Cecilia's parents are shown as William Patrick Dunne and Margaret O'Byrne, there is no other information on the Martin side.
-
:) Was just going to post that information.
Here is the death of William Dunne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1957/04397/4144190.pdf
-
:) Was just going to post that information.
Here is the death of William Dunne
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1957/04397/4144190.pdf
Great minds... :)
-
In relation to John/Jack, etc, government records like birth marriage and death certs tended to use the formal name - so someone who was known to all his friends as Jack or Mick or Sandy would be listed as John, Michael or Alexander; Cecilia was sometimes spelled Cecelia, and Frances became Fanny, Mary and Margeret became May and so on.
Then there's the question of names in Irish - as people became more intense about the need to separate from the British Empire, plenty of people used the Irish version of their names, so John might became Sean, or the older spelling Seaghan, and James Seamuis and Peter Peadar, and often Cecilia would become Sheila or Sighle, Florence would be Bláth or Bláithín… And the later death records, after independence from 1922 on and especially from 1949 on when Ireland became a republic, often use the name that was customarily used - so someone born Peter Kearney in 1883 was registered at death as Peadar O Cearnaigh in 1943.
-
Irish Independent, 21 June 1950:
MARTIN - First Anniversary - In sad and loving memory of Shamey Martin, late of 37 Harold's Cross Cottage, who died on June 21 1949 ... - Inserted by his parents and brothers.
MARTIN - In loving memory of James Peter (Shamey), 37 Harold's Cross Cottages, Dublin, who died June 21 1949 ... Ever remembered by his brother and sister-in-law, Artie and Nellie.
The death registration is below, the reported age was 22, the informant was his father John Martin:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1949/04546/4199301.pdf
-
Irish Independent, 21 June 1950:
MARTIN - First Anniversary - In sad and loving memory of Shamey Martin, late of 37 Harold's Cross Cottage, who died on June 21 1949 ... - Inserted by his parents and brothers.
MARTIN - In loving memory of James Peter (Shamey), 37 Harold's Cross Cottages, Dublin, who died June 21 1949 ... Ever remembered by his brother and sister-in-law, Artie and Nellie.
The death registration is below, the reported age was 22, the informant was his father John Martin:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1949/04546/4199301.pdf
There's a bit of me thinks that I'm having to try too hard with the following information to make it fit the story and that it's therefore just a red herring, but I'll post it anyway and you can make your own mind up.
Further to the above mention of Shamey Martin of 37 Harold's Cross and the mention of his brother Artie and Artie's wife Nellie, I wondered about the following death notice in the Dublin Evening Herald of 24 May 2002:
MARTIN (17 Dun an Oir, Shannon, Co. Clare and late of Harold's Cross Cottages, Dublin and Ballycalla, Newmarket-on-Fergus and T.W.A.Shannon), - May 23, 2002 (peacefully, in the loving care of the staff of the regional Hospital, Limerick, Arthur (Dinkie), beloved husband of the late Ellen (Nellie) and loving father of [names witheld as probably alive], brother of the late Patsy and Shamey ...
With the above mention of Ballycalla, I noticed the following marriage in 1946 between an Arthur Abraham Martin and Helena Keane, Arthur's father was recorded as John Martin:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1946/08720/5150185.pdf
The only birth with the name combination of Arthur Abraham Martin I've been able to find so far is the following one, born in 1920 in Holles Street Hospital Dublin to John Martin and Sarah Gregan:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1920/01209/1502857.pdf
And the closest fit I could find for a marriage between a John Martin and a Sarah Gregan is this one in 1919, John's father was recorded as Arthur Martin:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09685/5512867.pdf
It's a long way from Dublin to west Co. Clare, so as I said, it's all rather tenuous.
-
Then there is the following death registration for a Sarah Martin of 37 Harold's X Cottages Dublin who died in 1972 as a result of a road traffic accident, she was married and her reported age was 76:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1972/04106/4039531.pdf
-
West Clare was always a holiday place for Dubliners.
-
@Grizzly1 Are you sure they were married in Ireland? Sometimes people married abroad - as near as Holyhead, but also in Scotland or England.
That possibility did cross my mind, hopefully, my visit to the GRO will turn up a marriage cert.
-
With the usual health warning about accuracy, there's a tree on the 'Ancestry' website showing a Cecilia Dunne (1927 - 1987) marrying a Patrick Martin of 37 Harolds Cross on 27 March 1951 at Rosary Church Harolds Cross, Cecilia's parents are shown as William Patrick Dunne and Margaret O'Byrne, there is no other information on the Martin side.
1951 marriages don’t seem to be on Irish genealogy yet.
Here is a Cecelia Dunne from Irish marriages, Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTRR-KP2
Vol 2 pg 643
and Patrick Martin, on the same page
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTRT-131
May be worth checking out.
-
Thank you all so much for your efforts, much appreciated, now at least I have a positive lead on the Dunne side.
Again thank you all.
-
Update:
Birth for Patrick Joseph Martin 4-3-1923 Rotunda.
Father: John Martin, Labourer.
Mother Sarah Gregan(possibly Grogan)
Address: 5 Kirwan St.
Marriage : 27 -3-1951.Church of our lady of Rosary.
Patrick Martin, 37 Harolds cross cottages, labourer, father, John Martin, labourer.
Cecelia Dunne, 1 Darley St...father, William Dunne, watchman.
Witness's.Arthur Martin...Margaret Dunne.
Looks as if the Sarah Martin Killed 1972 was Patrick Mother.
-
Excellent, now it's a matter of tracking back from the 1919 marriage for John Martin and Sarah Gregan.
-
Yes Gaffy,
Ive just found a marriage for John Martin to Sarah Gregan 31 Aug 1919 in Dalkey,
Arthur father of John and James Gregan for Sarah, the 1911 census for 16 yr old Sarah gives No 3 Colboy Town in Wicklow.
Address for couple at time 85 North King St for John and the salubrious address of 8 Sorrento Tce Dalkey for Sarah (servant)
-
Yes Gaffy,
Ive just found a marriage for John Martin to Sarah Gregan 31 Aug 1919 in Dalkey,
Arthur father of John and James Gregan for Sarah, the 1911 census for 16 yr old Sarah gives No 3 Colboy Town in Wicklow.
Address for couple at time 85 North King St for John and the salubrious address of 8 Sorrento Tce Dalkey for Sarah (servant)
Yes, that's the same marriage I posted back in reply #20 following up my hunch about Patrick's brother Arthur.