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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: mezentia on Sunday 15 October 23 19:33 BST (UK)
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I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):
Item I bequeath to Thomas Scahtherd my sonne a counter, a coverlett a paire of sheetes and a chist. Item I bequeath to Elizabeth Cosminge a gray petticoate with some lynen apparell. Item I bequeath to Mary Scatcherd a quye.
What is a counter, and what might be a quye? Could a counter might be the equivalent of a bedspread?
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Based on Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j6q/) I'd suggest that a counter is a dresser, and quye is one of many variants of quey, meaning either a heifer of any age up to 3 years, or until she has had a calf; or any female calf.
Exact links to those definitions:
https://archive.org/details/englishdialectdi01wrig/page/744/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/cu31924088038413/page/678/mode/2up
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I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):
Item I bequeath to Thomas Scahtherd my sonne a counter, a coverlett a paire of sheetes and a chist. Item I bequeath to Elizabeth Cosminge a gray petticoate with some lynen apparell. Item I bequeath to Mary Scatcherd a quye.
No doubt typos, but just to point out you have put an extra 'h' in Thomas's name - it is 'Scatcherd', not 'Scahtherd'.
And Elizabeth's name is 'Cosinge', not 'Cosminge' - there are not enough minims in there to have both an 'm' and an 'i'.
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Thank you, both. :)
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I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):
What is a counter, and what might be a quye? Could a counter might be the equivalent of a bedspread?
Considering that the word counter is mentioned when talking about bedding it is more than likely a counterpane which is a type of bedspread.
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I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):
What is a counter, and what might be a quye? Could a counter might be the equivalent of a bedspread?
Considering that the word counter is mentioned when talking about bedding it is more than likely a counterpane which is a type of bedspread.
You could be right, but unless firm evidence can be found for that usage I don't think it's possible for any of us to give a definitive answer. (Incidentally, according to the OED the earliest record of counterpane is 1626, so at the date of this will it would probably have been the earlier form counterpoint.)
Modern editions of the OED aren't readily available online, but there's one from 1913 at the Internet Archive. I didn't see anything in it about counter as a short or colloquial form of counterpoint, but I might have missed it. The page is at:
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99993/page/n1065/mode/2up
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I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):
What is a counter, and what might be a quye? Could a counter might be the equivalent of a bedspread?
Considering that the word counter is mentioned when talking about bedding it is more than likely a counterpane which is a type of bedspread.
It's not all about bedding - the same sentence also contains a reference to a chest (chist)
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A big thaks to all who have answered with all your suggestions.
I do have a current copy of the Shorter OED and a copy of the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology. The OED definitions for counter run to over a page, but the first definition includes a table for counting money, with no reference to a counterpane or for that matter, and type of material, bedding or clothing. The problem also arises if this is a Yorkshire dialect word. The proximity of counter to the items of bedding could be used to construe a counterpane, but what then of the chist? I think we have an either/or situation here, with no definitive answer.
I agree with arthurk that quye is possibly a mis-spelling of quy or quey, meaning a heifer or young cow up to three years old that has not yet calved.
I have been looking online for my own copy of Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary, that I can afford, but no luck so far for a full set.
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There is no mention of "counter" in my copy of Arnold Kellett's The Yorkshire Dictionary of Dialect, Tradition and Folklore.
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I have been looking online for my own copy of Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary, that I can afford, but no luck so far for a full set.
Don't bother - all online. Linked from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Dialect_Dictionary
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I have been looking online for my own copy of Joseph Wright's Dialect Dictionary....
Don't bother - all online. Linked from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_English_Dialect_Dictionary
From that I see that there's now a fully online version, allowing filtered searches etc. I think it might be my new go-to link:
https://eddonline4-proj.uibk.ac.at/edd/
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Trouble is I’m a bit of a bibliophile …
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I have a will proved in 1595 that makes the follwoing bequests (among others):
What is a counter, and what might be a quye? Could a counter might be the equivalent of a bedspread?
Considering that the word counter is mentioned when talking about bedding it is more than likely a counterpane which is a type of bedspread.
It's not all about bedding - the same sentence also contains a reference to a chest (chist)
The bedding would have been stored in the chest?
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You could be right, but unless firm evidence can be found for that usage I don't think it's possible for any of us to give a definitive answer. (Incidentally, according to the OED the earliest record of counterpane is 1626, so at the date of this will it would probably have been the earlier form counterpoint.)
Modern editions of the OED aren't readily available online, but there's one from 1913 at the Internet Archive. I didn't see anything in it about counter as a short or colloquial form of counterpoint, but I might have missed it. The page is at:
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99993/page/n1065/mode/2up
You are correct in that we can never know unless it is described somewhere as to what it is.
There are not however many items that are mentioned in wills as being (or started with the word) a 'counter' other than bedding.
That said, there is the below mentioned link that does describe a table as a counter for sale however every inventory or will from the 16th and 17th centuries I have seen has always listed such items as a table or drawers. This means there is the possibility that the seller has used a modern term of counter and it is not the name given to the furniture piece back in the 15th century.
https://www.periodoakantiques.co.uk/antique-tables/a-rare-example-of-an-early-16th-century-tudor-oak-counter-centre-table-english-circa-1520-2-stockno-1374/
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Re 'counter':
There are not however many items that are mentioned in wills as being (or started with the word) a 'counter' other than bedding.
That said, there is the below mentioned link that does describe a table as a counter for sale however every inventory or will from the 16th and 17th centuries I have seen has always listed such items as a table or drawers. This means there is the possibility that the seller has used a modern term of counter and it is not the name given to the furniture piece back in the 15th century.
https://www.periodoakantiques.co.uk/antique-tables/a-rare-example-of-an-early-16th-century-tudor-oak-counter-centre-table-english-circa-1520-2-stockno-1374/
Counter was used in the 16th and 17th centuries for something like a dresser or the table shown in that link. The article I mentioned from the Dialect Dictionary quoted an instance from 1641, and this is supported (and considerably expanded) by the online Yorkshire Historical Dictionary (based on the work of the late George Redmonds):
https://yorkshiredictionary.york.ac.uk/words/counter
Incidentally, searching in this for words beginning 'counter-' doesn't bring up counterpoint (counterpane), etc, but there's an interesting meaning for counterfeit, as some kind of metal basin:
https://yorkshiredictionary.york.ac.uk/words/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search=counter&start_year=&end_year=&search_places=&definition_text=&search_source_materials=
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Incidentally, searching in this for words beginning 'counter-' doesn't bring up counterpoint (counterpane), etc, but there's an interesting meaning for counterfeit, as some kind of metal basin:
https://yorkshiredictionary.york.ac.uk/words/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search=counter&start_year=&end_year=&search_places=&definition_text=&search_source_materials=
I have come across this use of 'counterfeit' - in 'puter counterfaite' in a list of dishes in Staffordshire, and 'counterfet dishes' in Cheshire, so not just a Yorkshire term.
Counterfeit
Some flatwares, especially large chargers and various sorts of basin were wrought by hand from flat discs of tin/copper alloy (no recycled pewter was allowed) for counterfeit or hand formed wares. Hammering was especially important in this manufacture, and the products of this craft, the present writer argues, were probably what is described in the 1438 Ordinances as ‘counterfeit’ (Welch I, 11-12) that is contra facio, beaten into shapes using a series of hollowed blocks of wood.
An alternative name for ‘porringer’ was ‘counterfeit’ as these utensils can be made this way. Garnishes of counterfeit were sometimes made for the banquet course and were ‘pounced’ or decorated in relief.
http://etheses.dur.ac.uk/3312/2/Archaeology_of_Pewter_Vessels_in_England_Final_Nov_2011.pdf