RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: Ghostwheel on Thursday 23 November 23 12:53 GMT (UK)
-
I was wondering if there was any church law that a priest should live inside his parish.
Anyone know what the practice was?
-
Historically Priests would have tenure in one parish.
The Code of Canon Law favors the stability of a parish pastor, making it a law that pastors are to be assigned for an “indeterminate” amount of time.
These days with the shortage of priests such rules would probably not apply however it would be determined by the local Bishop.
-
I appreciate this is on the Ireland forum.
In the Church of England it wasn't uncommon, especially with the more lucrative livings. A priest might have more than one parish, take the income from them, and live elsewhere, employing curates to do the work. These days incomes are much smaller!
-
I was wondering if there was any church law that a priest should live inside his parish.
Anyone know what the practice was?
Not all priests were or are equal!
A parish priest had security of tenure. A curate did not.
OP's question is in the present tense, but I have a feeling this is really an historical question about the 17th/18th C? Would be useful to state that, as modern conditions are different. These days there are church owned parochial houses in every parish, and clergy are expected to reside in them.
Historically, I don't believe priests were technically required to live in their parishes (?), but having the "cure of souls" they should necessarily have lived close by, if not actually in residence.
On the other hand, I think there is a canon that secular clergy have to live in the diocese to which they belong.
There was considerable scandal in the CofI (perhaps controversy might be a better word), in the 18th and 19th centuries because of nonresident clergy (and bishops too IIRC). Residence was the norm for Catholics. That said, during the height of the penal law period, norms obviously had to be dispensed with - literally so.
-
@Wexflyer
I have a feeling this is really an historical question about the 17th/18th C?
Correct, I should have stated that.
One man I was wondering about in particular was an elderly parish priest, who died in the late 18th century and was buried in a parish that was not even adjacent.
He can be identified definitely because the stone was erected by another priest from the parish (with the same surname), who gave his own church.
I am wondering about what that would most likely mean. That he had been reassigned there? Or somehow died there - perhaps at a sort of home for priests? Or that it was his native parish?
____
Some words or terms that I find a bit confusing:
"His substitute" referring to another priest on the 1697 return. (I wonder whether this would imply that a priest had more than one parish, and was absent at times. The return does not survive for the vast majority of Ireland, outside of Dublin and its very near environs)
"Mensal parish." This is a term that I believe I have only seen in interpretive notes, relating to a portion of the 1697 return. But I wonder if it would only mean where a Catholic bishop resides, or if there is some implication that he may have also resided at a second parish, at times.
-
@Wexflyer
I have a feeling this is really an historical question about the 17th/18th C?
Correct, I should have stated that.
One man I was wondering about in particular was an elderly parish priest, who died in the late 18th century and was buried in a parish that was not even adjacent.
He can be identified definitely because the stone was erected by another priest from the parish (with the same surname), who gave his own church.
I am wondering about what that would most likely mean. That he had been reassigned there? Or somehow died there - perhaps at a sort of home for priests? Or that it was his native parish?
____
Some words or terms that I find a bit confusing:
"His substitute" referring to another priest on the 1697 return. (I wonder whether this would imply that a priest had more than one parish, and was absent at times. The return does not survive for the vast majority of Ireland, outside of Dublin and its very near environs)
"Mensal parish." This is a term that I believe I have only seen in interpretive notes, relating to a portion of the 1697 return. But I wonder if it would only mean where a Catholic bishop resides, or if there is some implication that he may have also resided at a second parish, at times.
You have specific people in mind, but I think your query can only be answered in generalities.
In more modern times, priest tend to be buried in their churchyards, or in separate clergy plots.
Back then though, there were no Catholic churchyards, so that was not possible.
In my case, where I know that an early period priest was a family member, and I also know where he was buried, then they were all buried in family graves, viz:
Rev William Brennan 1790-1846, PP New Ross, buried Ballybrennan, Bree, with family.
Rev. Thomas Brennan ?-1775, PP Bree, buried Whitechurch, Glynn, with family
Rev. Malachi Brennan, 1798-1866, PP Taghmon, buried Whitechurch, Glynn, with Fr Thomas, his great-grand uncle.
None of these three were buried in the parish of which they were pastor. Note - two separate Brennan families.
Mensal parish - a parish of which the bishop (or perhaps also VG) is formally the pastor. It does NOT mean the bishop necessarily resides there. Usually he does not, it is simply providing financial support for his upkeep. As the bishop is only formally the pastor, that means there has to be someone in his stead - these days termed the Administrator (Admin), but I can imagine that he might have been termed a surrogate in times past?
-
@Wexflyer
Thanks, those are interesting examples!
I only know something about one priest:
Rev. Andrew Duggan 1803-1836
Died in Carlow, during a cholera epidemic, after tending the sick. Thousands went to his funeral, and his grave and family home became a place of pilgrimage.
Buried very near to his family home in the graveyard at Carrick-Oris, which is about 56 km from where he died. Same diocese, but not same county. Think he was buried in his native parish. At least very near to his family home.
I never saw the tombstone, so I am not sure that I ever saw the full inscription, or if anyone is buried in the same grave, but I do know his brother erected the stone and is buried in the same cemetery.
I was under the impression that the term 'mensal parish' has a different meaning for Catholics than Church of England. But, perhaps, it originally meant the same thing? Or I am wrong about it.
-
By the way, does anyone know if there is any logic to the location of the parish of a vicar?
Do they try to put a vicar in a certain place? Or is it just a random place in the diocese? Maybe, where a parish priest received a promotion, to become vicar because he was seen as a suitable candidate.
-
I've found a grave that is kind of interesting. Seems to imply that a priest was buried in his first parish, not the one he was serving in when he died.
Though, he wasn't very old when he died.
No idea where he was born, though I am tenatively guessing somewhere else.
Beneath are deposited the mortal remains of the Rev. James Butler, Admr. of Carlow. Died the 13th of April, 1860, aged 37 years. His meekmess, zeal for education, and tender sympathy for the afflicted, were eminent amongst the many virtues which adorned his character. This monument reveals the affectionate remembrance of him in this Parish, where his first years in the holy ministry were zealously spent. A memorial window in the Cathedral of Carlow attests the reverential affection which his flock justly entertained for this beloved Pastor. In a short space he fulfilled a long time. His memory shall be in perennial benediction. May he rest in peace
https://www.balynaparish.ie/our-parish/parish-history/
-
I only know something about one priest:
Rev. Andrew Duggan 1803-1836
Died in Carlow, during a cholera epidemic, after tending the sick. Thousands went to his funeral, and his grave and family home became a place of pilgrimage.
Interesting. Because the Rev. William Brennan (1790-1846), PP of New Ross, became locally famous for his exertions on behalf of his flock during the cholera epidemics of 1832, 36 and 39. His funeral was also a large affair, with a memorial erected to his memory. In particular, he was known as a healing priest, with people making pilrimages to his grave. That last I can personally attest to, as I have myself seen the many rosary beads and other religious objects left on his table tomb as late as 2000 or so.
-
I was under the impression that the term 'mensal parish' has a different meaning for Catholics than Church of England. But, perhaps, it originally meant the same thing? Or I am wrong about it.
I have no idea what a mensal parish means for the CofE :)
-
May be overthinking all this. Just like anyone else, it could be down to whether the individual priest left instructions as to where he wished to be buried, or not.
-
By the way, does anyone know if there is any logic to the location of the parish of a vicar?
Do they try to put a vicar in a certain place? Or is it just a random place in the diocese? Maybe, where a parish priest received a promotion, to become vicar because he was seen as a suitable candidate.
Vicar is a very non-Catholic term to use for ordinary diocesan clergy. No particular logic as to where assigned. As I mentioned earlier, PPs had tenure, so there had to be a vacancy. Of course, once made a PP, you could be transferred to a better/easier parish, a "promotion" if you will.
Remember also that not all priests became PPs - many remained curates until they died.
-
Beneath are deposited the mortal remains of the Rev. James Butler, Admr. of Carlow. Died the 13th of April, 1860, aged 37 years. His meekmess, zeal for education, and tender sympathy for the afflicted, were eminent amongst the many virtues which adorned his character. This monument reveals the affectionate remembrance of him in this Parish, where his first years in the holy ministry were zealously spent. A memorial window in the Cathedral of Carlow attests the reverential affection which his flock justly entertained for this beloved Pastor. In a short space he fulfilled a long time. His memory shall be in perennial benediction. May he rest in peace
https://www.balynaparish.ie/our-parish/parish-history/
Notice that he was the Administrator - "Admr" in this case - because that was a mensal parish.
-
In particular, he was known as a healing priest, with people making pilrimages to his grave. That last I can personally attest to, as I have myself seen the many rosary beads and other religious objects left on his table tomb as late as 2000 or so.
Fr. Duggan was similar.
I know there was some pilgrimage 100 years after his death. I believe his vestments are still preserved. But his hat is missing pieces, as touching a piece of it to the head was supposed to be a cure for headaches.
Notice that he was the Administrator - "Admr" in this case - because that was a mensal parish.
I was able to puzzle that out, but just barely because it isn't one of the terms I've seen. I've seen 'assistant' and I think possibly 'substitute', but I'm not sure.
Vicar is a very non-Catholic term to use for ordinary diocesan clergy. No particular logic as to where assigned.
'Vicar' was my lazy way of saying 'vicar general.' I think I've seen a few in the same parish, over the years, so it had me wondering if there was some geographic ideal in the diocese or else some tradition of them being in a certain parish or parishes.
But I don't think what I saw was necessarily strong enough to indicate a pattern. Maybe, parishioners just like to brag about their vicar generals.
I have no idea what a mensal parish means for the CofE
I had the very vague idea that it was a particular area of land regularly set aside for all successive bishops for financial support and that often they were not resident in it at all.
Whereas with Catholics, I had the idea it was meant to denote that the bishop lived there. That it was specifically his parish, and not necessarily one set place over time for succesive bishops. But that a particular bishop living their made it a mensal parish.
But I could be very wrong about all that, though I had heard there was some difference.
It's a bit difficult for me to understand how the financial aspect of it worked. Weren't there curates there that had to be supported, just like any other parish? Was it supposed to be a richer parish? Didn't the church not have any land in Ireland, on which to gather rents?
-
It's a bit difficult for me to understand how the financial aspect of it worked. Weren't there curates there that had to be supported, just like any other parish? Was it supposed to be a richer parish? Didn't the church not have any land in Ireland, on which to gather rents?
- Yes, the usual quota of curates, and an administrator instead of a parish priest.
- The difference being that some portion of the money goes to the bishop for his support. Basically the administrator does not get all the money that a PP would get.
- So, practically, usually a richer parish.
- No of course they didn't have any land! They were an illegal organization! They had no land, and could not own land in the period of interest to you, or for surprisingly long afterwards.
-
Whereas with Catholics, I had the idea it was meant to denote that the bishop lived there. That it was specifically his parish, and not necessarily one set place over time for succesive bishops. But that a particular bishop living their made it a mensal parish.
No, being a mensal parish does not mean the bishop lives there. He might, but not at all necessarily.
Take the diocese of Ferns, with which I am somewhat familiar. There are at least three, maybe four mensal parishes, viz:
- Enniscorthy
- St. Sennan's
- Wexford
- and maybe ? ? ?
Obviously the bishop can't reside in all three (or four) mensal parishes!
He actually resides in Wexford, though the cathedral is in Enniscorthy, and the See is formally that of Ferns.
A mensal parish is simply a parish with revenues permanently devoted to the financial support of the bishop.
-
My model is probably very biased because it is built mostly upon the 1697 return, which is very incomplete.
On it, the Bishop of Kildare appears in a Dublin parish, St. Michan's, where he is said to have an assistant that has an assistant.
Because it's in Dublin, and he is mostly mentioned in connection with St. Michan's (1689 before he was bishop, 1697, 1703) and was at one time vicar capitular of Dublin, before he was bishop of Kildare. I guess it is easy to imagine as his personal parish. Though perhaps, it might not be.
Of course, on the 1704 return, he is not mentioned in connection with it. But I think by then, they had to be more circumspect, and also IIRC, a priest was not supposed to leave his county.
BTW, it slipped my mind before, but I think I can now answer my original question, at least as a probability.
I don't believe that the bishop was resident in his own parish in 1704, when he was just noted as a PP.
I thought he was a PP of Balyna, but evidently, he was PP of a parish named Kilraney, which at some later point must have been amalgamated into Balyna.
The townland that he was resident in was Kilmurry, which seems to probably be on the wrong side of Balyna to be contiguous with Kilraney, whether or not it was itself a part of Balyna back then.
-
Well, IIRC, in those days, when a bishop could not openly function, it was a common disguise to adopt the persona of being just a parish priest (though even that had risks, of course). As part of such a 'cover story" I can imagine - but it is just a guess - that the bishop would have to have a link with some particular parish, presumably the one he claimed to be PP of. And what better one than a mensal parish, of which he was technically pastor anyway?