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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: tfordcan on Sunday 03 December 23 23:53 GMT (UK)
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I have attached the marriage registration for Charles Hole and Elizabeth Hole. I note that people have posted other questions about being married by a registrar's certificate vs by banns or license however I am wondering if anyone can advise on The Registration Act of 13th Nov 1850 that is noted under Condition. I can find no reference to it under legislation that I could find and I am wondering if it has anything to do with marrying a relative. Charles was previously married to Ann Portington Spring a daughter of William Spring who passed a couple of months after the marriage in 1851. I note that Elizabeth Hole gives William Spring as her father and of course unusual for bride and groom to have the same surname listed Hole.
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I can't find anything in Hansard for 1850.
But this may be interest in 1855.
api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1855.mar/13/marriage-law-amendment
It looks to me as if they had a civil ceremony first - they were married at the church having already had a "Registrar's Certificate of marriage", and then went to the church for what we would now call a blessing - having it solemnized, as it says at the top.
In which case, Elizabeth would indeed officially be called Elizabeth Hole, as given on this entry, as she would have been already married to Charles Hole.
It sounds as though she was related to Charles's first wife Ann - perhaps she was her sister - both daughters of William Spring - in which case the link to the information in Hansard could apply. They were married two years after this entry in Hansard.
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Deleted :-\
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From the GRO:
There's a baptism of an Elizabeth Hole, June quarter 1860 Kensington, mother's maiden name Spring.....
and a Harriet Hole Dec quarter 1865 again Kensington, mother's maiden name Spring.......
Herbert Henry Dec quarter 1869, mmn Spring
Louisa March quarter 1871
No way of telling on here who the father was though.
Where did you find the chldrens' names Kay? The OP didn't mention them.
(I see you've deleted those other ones now Kay).
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1871 Census
Charles Hole, aged 40, Shoemaker, born Waltham Green, lives Paddington, Middlesex.
Wife Elizabeth aged 39, birthplace 'Exceter'. This is a transcription on familysearch. Possibly 'Exeter'?
Children Elizabeth aged 11,
Henriette aged 7, (this is probably Henry above)
Harriet aged 5.
Emily aged 3,
Herbert, aged 1
and Louisa aged 0.
These fit with the Registrations found before.
Do you have the actual image of this tfordcan?
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Yep, 1881 Census has Elizabeth, Charles's wife, born in Exeter. Now aged '47'.
Charles John Hole married Ann Portington Spring in Hull. Oct Nov Dec quarter 1850.
Ann Portington Spring had an illegitimate daughter June 1840, baptised in York, named Elizabeth Wilson Spring. No father's name given on the transcription on familysearch. Looks like she died Oct quarter 1840. 'Age 0'.
Ann Portington Spring baptised 4 April 1817 at Holy Trinity, Hull to William Spring and Ann. He is given as a tailor.
William Spring married Ann Portington 22 Dec 1811 Wrawby Lincolnshire.
Also a Timothy Portington Spring baptised 25 Jan 1822 Hull.
It looks as if they moved around a fair bit.
Elizabeth might be right with her place of birth in Exeter, or she may not have know exactly where she was born, and made it up!
I can't find a likely birth for her at present.(Not looked on Ancestry and findmypast as I don't have sub).
If William and Ann moved around the country, as it seems they did, and she was born about 1834 or so, she may never have been baptised, and there will be no record of her birth.
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Sorry Goldie - I got so confused with the later children and delated it
I looked on Anc family trees for the family which lists a Charles Hole b 1855/6
The baptism for Charles - birth listed as Dec 24 1855
Charles Hale
Baptism Date 12 Oct 1856 St John, Paddington, Westminster, England
Father Charles Hale
Mother Elizabeth Hale
Address same as marriage and Charles a Cordwainer
However the registered birth of Charles Hole in 1855 in Kensington with mothers maidne name Edwards is in the March Qtr is too early so the wrong Charles
Kay
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I looked at a list of Acts for 1850:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acts_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom,_1850%E2%80%931854
Nothing looks likely.
Also no Acts dated November 1850?
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I looked at a list of Acts for 1850:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_acts_of_the_Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom,_1850%E2%80%931854
Nothing looks likely.
Also no Acts dated November 1850?
No I couldn't find any acts either KGarrad
Perhaps the vicar got the wrong date.
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Sorry Goldie - I got so confused with the later children and delated it
:)
Too late at night here for me now - I'm easily confused! :)
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The date in 1850 almost certainly refers to the date of a previous marriage, not the date of the act of parliament.... it is in the "condition" column so seems to be telling us they are already married.
Marrying "by certificate" refers to the civil process of giving "notice to marry" instead of having banns read. This is unusual for a church wedding, but equally valid and is seen occasionally. I suspect that refers to the original ceremony, not this one.
But it does seem a very unusual record if the wife of 1850 did die soon after the wedding. If this wife was a sister of his deceased wife, as suggested, was this an attempt to circumvent the restriction on such a marriage by somehow claiming this was the same woman and this was a blessing ceremony ( which therefore shouldn't have been registered) ?
Marrying as Elizabeth HOLE could be because she had been living under that name for some time, and as such quite proper (and legal) to marry in that name.
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The first marriage was 28 November 1850 https://tinyurl.com/3hm38m6d
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Thanks everyone for your input. Just for further background, Charles John Hole's first marriage Nov 28, 1850 to Ann Portington Spring was in the Registrar's office by certificate. His second marriage in 1857 was by certificate but performed in the church by a vicar. No children from the first marriage (though as mentioned Ann had an illegitimate child in 1840. The second marriage produced 8 children Charles 1854, Louisa 1857, Elizabeth 1860, Henrietta 1863, Harriet 1865, Emily 1868, Herbert John 1869 and Louisa 2 in 1870. The GRO lists the first two Charles and Louisa as having a MMN as Edwards as does Emily, the other children have MMN as Spring. I am comfortable that this is the same family as the first two have a baptism at the same address as the 1857 marriage 10 Titchborne Row and Elizabeth the 3rd child is baptized the same day as Louisa again at 10 Titchborne Row and the fathers full name is Charles John, cordwainer. All the available baptism records indicate Charles John and Elizabeth Hole as parents. The mother Elizabeth lists POB Exeter on all the census records and on the 1921 census specifically states St Sidwell Exeter, her DOB is indicated as 1832 to 1836 with 3 of them including the 1921 census indicating 1832. I have one Elizabeth Edwards born in 1832 in St Sidwell however no Elizabeth Spring. I have no understanding as to why Elizabeth lists William Spring as her father on the marriage record and I can locate no Elizabeth Spring that fits. Nor why she used Edwards and Spring as a maiden name. I do note that the probate for the first wife did not complete until 1893 the time of the death of Charles John even though she passed in 1850. Anyway the search continues.
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Gosh yes that admin does just beg more questions!
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I would guess that property (or assets) held in joint names?
So probate could not be completed until both parties had died.