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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: gregory tree on Monday 22 January 24 13:08 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
This is possibly the author Lawrence O'Shea or Arthur Lawrence SHEA 1873-1894, son of Michael and Catherine SHEA nee GREEN [see previous post re photo of Unknown Mother possibly Catherine SHEA nee GREEN c 1841-1905] the story is that our grandmother's uncle was an author who wrote under the name of Lawrence O'Shea. I don't think so though - it doesn't really check out.
So Lawrence O'Shea and penciled in underneath "The girl is his shorthand typist."
In our father's hand "(Nin's Uncle)". Our grandmother was known to us as Nin.
In our grandmother's hand "Dad's brother. Author."
Please can you date this photo - I am not sure if the bit about the 'Author' is maybe fantasy - and likely told to her by her father. I will compare handwriting if I can find a card sent to her from her father.
My grandmother was born in 1897 so her Uncle Arthur Lawrence SHEA had already passed in India aged only 22 years. Or at least there is a death of an Arthur Lawrence SHEA of the right age - no parents name/s or place of birth though to confirm that death as being him.
ALSO, Lawrence O'Shea the famous author is named in the link and was still alive in 1919. This link is to a book by the author Lawrence O'Shea "Presented to King George V by the author, Aug. 17 1919".
https://www.rct.uk/collection/1121468/three-campaigns-reminiscences-of-an-ex-soldier-sailor-by-lawrence-oshea
So maybe this photo is he and his shorthand typist or my great grand Uncle Arthur Lawrence SHEA son of Catherine SHEA nee GREEN - photo also attached IF that is she.
PLEASE see my previous post re dating that photo. Thank you.
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The starting point is late WW1 so around 1917-20.
Can't id the medals.
I thought the 3rd. was the QSA but the ribbon is wrong.
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deleted
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The picture you have that you believe is Catherine is also on a divided back postcard as I believe you would like that dated too
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Thank you again jim1. And yes rosie99, you said the divided back Postcards didn't come in until 1905? I'm not sure why this postcard back isn't showing the whole image - perhaps resolution is too high.
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Well, a tree on ancestry has that photo attached to Arthur Lawrence Shea who died 1894. Are they connected to you, or have they got the photo from another source. Whatever the case, that photo can’t be that man, as he is way way older than 22 ( the age of Arthur Lawrence Shea at his death in 1894.
Arthur Lawrence who died 1894 was “Band 2nd Scottish Rifles”. Are his attestation papers anywhere?
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It may be mine or one copied from my tree as I have the original photo and I agree this man is older than 22 years. I can't find another Arthur Lawrence SHEA though and the one that died was born around the same time - I just wonder who this is then and how my grandmother came to have the photo. Maybe the story of her uncle writing under the name Lawrence O'Shea is true then? He looks about the right age then if her uncle didn't die in 1894, I need to do more research on the author which I did do originally and found nothing but the link I put in my post has come up more recently.
Thank you for your reply.
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Extracts from a newspaper article in 1913 (Nottingham Journal, 9/1/13).
There's an 1873 RN record for Lawrence Shea born Chelsea 1855. And a Thorneycroft's Mounted Infantry Record from 1901 for Lawrence O'Shea aged 45.
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Thank you. That I think may be an Uncle that someone else, a 3rd cousin maybe, researched born Chelsea 1855 and I think this one is older than the one in the photo though.
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Based purely on the photo my guess is 1922ish. I'm sure if you post on a military forum, someone will be able to identify the medals.
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Thank you.
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I have to say after reading ShaunJ's piece it looks like the man in the photo.
He would have been around mid 60's in 1920 which looks about right.
When I looked at the medals first time I noticed medal 2 is a ships wheel
& wondered about a maritime connection.
Maybe a red herring but he doesn't look like someone born in the 1870's.
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At A******y
Thorneycroft's Mounted Infantry – South Africa Medal and Clasps
O'Shea, Lawrence 5016
the record is heavily annotated possibly because there was a delay in authorising/issuing, but it suggests that he was awarded two clasps – the Orange Free State clasp and the Cape Colony clasp.
The appearance of the medal on the left – as you look at the photo – is consistent with being SA medal with two clasps.
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According to an entry at Fold3 Lawrence O'Shea – 5016, trooper, Thorneycroft's Mounted Infantry – was awarded both the Queen's South Africa Medal and the King's South Africa Medal. The entry that I described in my previous post relates to the QSA, which had numerous clasps including the two that were issued.
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In the 1911 census, at 164 New North Road Islington
Lawrence O'Shea, 55, married, married 9 years, no children, Licensed Pedlar, Cheap Jewellery, born Borough of Chelsea
Ada O'Shea wife, 39, Pedlar, borne Ryde, IOW
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I at first thought it was the QSA because of 4 clasps ( I think there were only 2 awarded with the KSA)
However this would be the reverse side which doesn't match that on the medal.
Lets see what others think.
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The medal looks like a good match to me.
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The QSA looks a lot more elaborate & the other one doesn't
have South Africa around edge.
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Just to clarify, I was suggesting that the other medal was the QSA, not the one with 4 clasps (especially since he apparently had QSA with 2 clasps).
My guess is that the medal with 4 clasps is the Afghanistan Medal, since he claims to have been there.
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Medal 1 might be a possible for the Afghan medal but not 3.
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A report in the Islington Gazette 29th January 1913 of the funeral procession of Richard Samuel Hobdell, died 22nd January 1913 aged 66. (He was a tram worker who run over by a motor-van.)
Amongst the pall-bearers were Trooper Lawrence O'Shea, who served in the same regiment with deceased. [This would be the King's Royal Rifles.] They joined in 1875, and went through the Afghan campaign together. Another pall-bearer was Corporal Styles, also an Afghan campaigner. Both men, who wore their decorations yesterday, were with deceased on the march to Kandahar.
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Medal 1 might be a possible for the Afghan medal but not 3.
Is there any rule or convention about the order that the medals were worn?
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Awards for bravery took first place & then campaign medals in chronological order
so Afghan 1st. & then SA medal after that.
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And what does first mean? In this photo which medal is being worn first? The medal on the wearer’s right, nearest the centre of his body or the one at the other end with the 4 clasps?
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Sorry should have clarified.
Order starting from the centre of the body in other words left to right as you see them.
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Thanks.
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A candidate for the medal in the centre – the Kabul to Kandahar Star:
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Looks a good match.
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He was certainly persistent.
There are attestation (3123 Royal Fusiliers) and discharge records for him from 1915. He used the same New North Road address as the 1911 census but claimed to be 45 (he was 60). He gave his occupation as jeweller's traveller, and said that he was not married. He mentions being in KRR and Thorneycroft's Mounted Infantry.
Attestation 17th Februry 1915
Discharged 30th July 1915 (a pension claim was rejected)
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In 1921 he is at 11 Canonbury Road age 65 years 10 months, still a pedlar. Confusingly he has birthplace as Chelsea but his nationality as Irish.
He has a different wife:
Elizabeth O'Shea, 48, born Aldershot (but also Irish?).
There is indeed a record of a marriage to Elizabeth Keating Q1 1917
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Did you notice that the 1875-82 medical records included in the WW1 army file bore the name "Thomas Beacon"? There is an entry for that name on the 2nd Afghan War medal roll, 2nd KRRC
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1686/images/31794_221413-00154
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Pension index cards confirm that Thomas Beacon (2nd KRRC 441) was an alias of Lawrence O'Shea.
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Excellent spot!
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Presumably the lady in the photo is his wife Elizabeth.
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Thank you Alan,
The person in the photo if it is my grandmother's uncle was born in Wales in 1873 I suspect now that he didn't die in 1894 but it's the best fit for this family in my opinion but still open to any information.
Others on Ancestry and DNA related to me, have found a Lawrence Shea b.1855 and I think born Chelsea. They have him as much younger brother of Michael SHEA - parents Michael SHEA and Fanny nee NOON. I say they are half siblings. Michael born 1838 and Lawrence born 1855. My family tree is on Ancestry and this is my Paternal side. Tree name murray-gregory username gregory_JAG1 SHEA is my paternal grandmothers line.
Thanks again for your input re the medals and the Census information.
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Sorry I hadn't seen all the other replies when I replied earlier. Thanks for all that info you have both been busy. I appreciate it. As I said though the person who I thought this was was born in Wales in 1873 - each child was born in a different Army camp or location - refer the 1871 & 1881 Census for Michael and Catherine SHEA. My Great grandfather was their first born Robert W SHEA on 1871 Census but in South Africa in 1881 but younger children born after 1871 are on the 1881 Census.
I can't tell much about the other Lawrence in this family as I haven't researched him but have seen him in my DNA matches tree b. 1855 in Chelsea - one is descended from him and other from a sister Mary Anne SHEA b. 1857.
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What does everyone think of this Lawrence O'Shea in this link that is also in my original post, noting that it says in the filename "three-campaigns-reminiscences-of-an-ex-soldier-sailor-by-lawrence-oshea":
https://www.rct.uk/collection/1121468/three-campaigns-reminiscences-of-an-ex-soldier-sailor-by-lawrence-oshea
I can't find any more about him but I have a few pages of similar writing which my grandmother has attributed to her father, I think. Maybe he told it was his writing, not sure, but it is so similar to the description of the writing in this book presented apparently to King George V by Lawrence O'Shea.
I am beginning to think this may then be her father's paternal uncle Lawrence SHEA born 1855 but the others who have put him in as a much younger brother of Michael SHEA b 1838 have records for a Seaman by same name who married a Louisa.
So confusing with so many with the same name, but my grandmother's uncle was born Arthur Lawrence and as these medals don't fit someone that young or a seaman b. 1855 I am still wondering.
The Lawrence O'Shea who goes with the book presented to the King in 1919 goes with the writing her father had, whether it was his work or his Uncles or Brother's who knows?? I wish there was another photo to compare - ideally of that of the author - my great grandfather may have fantasised that this was the author, and copied his work ???
Here is a hint in his profile on Ancestry for UK Royal Navy registers of Seamen's Services 1848-1939: https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/39001678/person/162528650429/hints
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I have just now, using the Contact us on their Webpage, messaged the Royal Collections Trust to try and find out more about the Lawrence O'Shea who presented the 'Memoirs' /three-campaigns-reminiscences-of-an-ex-soldier-sailor-by-lawrence-oshea' to King George V in 1919, if they have any further information on him, and I sent the images of the front and back of the photograph said to be
of Lawrence O'Shea and his shorthand typist.
Will see how that goes. It is 9:45pm Sunday 28th Jan here, so they won't see it until they are back at work Monday morning UK time at earliest.
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1. The man who wrote the book was Lawrence O'Shea born Chelsea 1855 (alias Thomas Beacon). Everything in the newspaper reports tallies with his service records.
2. The man in the photo, given the provenance, and the medals on display, is almost certainly the same man.
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It's been proven that the man in the photo is Lawrence O'Shea b. 1855.
In 1871 he was on a Naval training ship as Boy 2nd. Class.
In 1875 he joined the KRRC under the name Thomas Beacon which
leads me to believe he may have absconded from the Navy.
It may be as both men had attachments to the Navy has added to the confusion.
I would say he is the author of the book as he appears to have had an interesting
& varied military career.
Just seen ShaunJ's reply but will post anyway.
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Thank you both for clarifying that. Wow. I will find the 'Memoirs' that my great grandfather is supposed to have penned. I believe this was his uncle maybe?
My Great grandfather was RW Shea and spent some time in Broadmoor after shooting his wife dead in Malta in 1902. He was later released into the care or supervision of the Salvation Army I think - his father Michael SHEA wrote a letter in support of his request to be released. His father was Michael SHEA c1838-1908
RW Shea fought in France in WW1 - his son Henry Patrick SHEA was killed in Greece 3 Oct 1916 they had both been wounded in France in 1915 or the photo I have was taken in 1915 after they had been wounded.
Thanks again
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Hello again.
I have located images of the 3 pages which are named Prophetic verse so not exactly what I thought as the work of Lawrence O'Shea was memoirs.
It likely was Robert W SHEA's work.
His service numbers:
WWI Pension Record; Service No: 674,1002,446,3186,4541
Corps, Reg't or Unit: 2/R. Irish Fus Ref: 11/M/215953;
Sorry but the files are too large to add but the last page [2nd page of verse] should be OK so will try just that one.
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There are 2 Regts. he served overseas with WW1.
He attested 19/10/14.
His 14 Star is reckoned from 7/11/14 meaning he had previous service as he
didn't undergo the 3 month training period.
1st. Btn. Connaught Rangers. No. 4541 earning the 14 Star, BW & V medals.
1st. Garr. Btn. R.I.F. No. G/674. Based in India.
The poem isn't factually correct as the war ended Nov. 1918 not 1917 & there wouldn't
have been any tourists.
Can't find any town called Kondor in India or anywhere else & it wouldn't have been held
in combat by anyone as India wasn't a war zone.
I'm not sure how much is humour & how much is fact as I don't know what's on the other 2 pages.
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Yes it is fictional I think but based on his experiences and what might happen if they missed the news of the end of the war, I think. I am glad I shared this photo and didn't just take the writing on the back as fact as I had done previously - I didn't think this man looked that old though to have been born 1855 but the medals seem to give the confirmation assuming they were his medals. I have another photo of RW Shea in a Sergeant's uniform but it seems it was not his uniform as he was only ever a Private. My grandmother described her father as a much higher rank on her marriage in 1923 in Sydney - she was probably led to believe that though being only a small child when her mother was killed. I don't know if she ever knew who shot her mother - we only discovered that in 2013 when the records were made available - or that was when we found them after searching - I now have the burial place in Malta of her mother thanks to help from a FB group and an email to the correct place in Malta.