RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: haney on Tuesday 05 March 24 18:51 GMT (UK)
-
Hi Everyone
I am doing research on the above who was married to JOHN GREENLEES in 1906, the family lived in the Balmain area.
Katherine I think was born as Catherine A MURRAY in 1887 to John Patrick MURRAY and Sophia E. LOWDER/EN. I'm not sure of the exact spelling of Sophias name but a John MURRAY married a Sophia LOWDER in Sydney in 1892.
Katherine died in 1973 listed on BDM as parents are John Patrick and SAPPHIRE (lol) typo?? perhaps.
So today's journey is trying to find the origins of JOHN PATRICK MURRAY and SOPHIA Elizabeth LOWDER etc spellings.
John Patrick MURRAY is supposedly born in Sydney in 1854, no verification of that so far though.
The Greenlees family seem to be Mariners in the Balmain area or at least involved in boats/ships etc. Many thanks kind regards Dianna
-
Hi,
well there is a tree for SOPHIA Elizabeth LOWDER on Ancestry
Sophia Elizabeth Lowder
BIRTH 26 JAN 1865 • Dalby, Queensland, DEATH 17 APR 1939 • Ryde, New South Wales
Cemetery Field of Mars Cemetery Ryde (there is a funeral notice in SMH 18.4.1939)
2 marriages
Marriage 31 Aug 1886 Patrick John Murray
Marriage 1919 • Glebe, New South Wales Joseph Owen (Joe) Ellis
Patrick John Murray
BIRTH 18 MAR 1853 • Sydney, DEATH 21 FEB 1904 • Sydney
parents
Caroline Catherine Carty
BIRTH ABT 1835 • Cork, Longford, Ireland DEATH 12 MAY 1879 • *Infirmary, Sydney
Richard Thomas Murray
BIRTH ABT DEC 1831 • Sydney, NSW, Australia DEATH 22 NOV 1861 • St Vincents Hospital, Sydney,
Cass
ps there is a photo of Sophia grave/headstone on this site
https://nmclm.com.au/find-a-loved-one/?site_id=6037
PM
NSW BDM Death MURRAY PATRICK J562/1904 JOHN R KATHERINE BALMAIN NORTH
-
Probably different family, but possibitky for mixups here
Trove has a death of a 14 months old son, named John Patrick, of John Murray and Sophia.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199733435?searchTerm=Sophia%20Murray
That seems to match this birth
MURRAY
Jno Pat
Birth
Mother Sophia
Mothers name at birth GREEN
Father Jno Francis
Place - MYRTLEFORD
1891
15446/1891
-
What does the 1892 marriage certificate tell you?
-
Hi thank you!
I knew this was going to be a tough one. I have the daughter KATHERINE A MURRAY born in 1887 spelt Catherine on BDM.
Therefore the marriage of the parents seem's "off". I may have to start at Scratch I think.
I don't have the marriage certificate! I think I may have to begin with the certificate of the birth of daughter Katherine and go backwards.
Alway's hoping that some other researchers have certs on their tree's. Better start again. LOL many thanks Dianna
-
Okay firstly I cannot find a marriage in 1886 31 August for a PATRICK JOHN or JOHN MURRAY to Sophia!!
The first birth is Catherine a in Newcastle in 1887 then they seem to be in Five Dock/Ryde area's
I will have to go over this with a fine tooth comb. LOL Thanks
-
A possibility
NSW BDM marriage 1291/1892 MURRAY JOHN P LOWDER SOPHIA SYDNEY
Cass
-
Hi Cass thanks for that. That is the one I thought of! But considering the first child was born 1887?? Maybe illegitimate???
Maybe I need the death certificate of the Sophia ELLIS 1939! See what is mentioned there. If she is the widow of JOHN P MURRAY.
It's a hard one!! Many thanks Dianna
I looked on Queesnsland BDM for a birth of SOPHIA E LOWDER. Not there!! At least it is a process of elimination and "checking" the trees on ancestry.
-
yes, the funeral notice for Sophia Ellis in the SMH 18.4.1939, states formerly Murray, I cannot find a death notice so we don't have a notice with her children's names, so looks like the death cert might have the answers.
Cass
-
Should just mention here that the surname in the discussion seems to have 2 spellings.
GREENLEES and GREENLESS.
Worth being aware, especially in a Trove search.
For example- Re Kate GREENLESS
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/76911193
Sue
-
The death notice for Joseph Owen ELLIS in 1943 mentions late wife Elizabeth, and siblings, but no children.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17859811?searchTerm=%22joseph%20%20ellis%22
-
Looks like Jospeh Owen ELLIS had been married previously - divorce in 1916.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15685759
-
Hi Sue and maddy
Yes should be noted spelling variants! Thanks for that!
I was trying to post that death notice for Jospeph Owen ELLIS but I kept on receiving an error message!
Maybe Sophia was listed with her middle name in the notice. Just a thought. Good to know re Ellis's divorce in 1916.
At least it gives me a bit of idea when John MURRAY may have died!! .
Just not quite adding up with the daughter CATHERINE (aka) KATHERINE born 1887 and then parents married in 1892. Cart before the horse??? Thanks
I guess another way to attack this is to buy Katherine and John Greenless marriage first to double check parents and then Katherines birth??? May solve some problems. LOL
-
NSW BDM births
MURRAY Dorothy M parents Katherine A @ Balmain South 32128 / 1906
GREENLEES Dorothy M parents John / Katherine A @ Balmain South 1324/1908
(26 Sep 1906)
MURRAY Dorothy M parents John / Katherine A @ Balmain South 1324/1908
(26 Sep 1906)
GREENLEES Katherine E parents John / Katherine A @ Balmain North 32999 / 1908
HESSE Basil H parents Theodore B / Elizabeth L 1324/1908
-
Oh! So Dorothy was illegitmate and then legitimised! Got it! Don't know how Basil HESSE had the same registration number! That's odd isn't it????
-
Ancestry Sydney Anglican Parish Records
St Thomas Balmain 21 Nov 1906
GREENLEES Dorothy May born 26 Sep 1906
parents John, boiler maker, Katherine Alice 5 Valley St Balmain
-
That's fantastic wivenhoe, many thanks. He being a boilermaker fit's in with the whole story I think.
-
NSW BDM death
GREENLEES Catherine parents James / Mary @ Manly 19823/1920
GREENLEES John parents 76 years @ Manly 8616/1928
Manly Cemetery https://hwt.concordengage.com/northernbeaches/search
plot GEN-z-267
GREENLEES Catherine buried 16 Dec 1920 65 years
GREENLEES John buried 16 Jun 1928 76 years
-
St Stephen Newtown 21 Dec 1945
GREENLEES John Thomas bachelor labourer born Balmain 21 years
95 Birchgrove Rd Balmain ps John GREENLEES boilermaker / Catherine Alice MURRAY
THOMSON Jean Millie spinster factory hand born Balmain 20 years
108 Edinburgh Rd Marrickville ps Robert THOMSON engineer Vera Gwendoline MARSH
witnesses R C ****, Robert THOMSON
National Archives Australia WW2 enlistment
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6180425
GREENLEES John Thomas # N279425 born 11 Aug 1923 Balmain
Enlisted Paddington NSW NOK John GREENLEES (father, 95 Birchgrove Rd)
John GREENLEES iis alive, 1941?....and Catherine Alice?
-
Hi Not sure who these people are! Maybe connected somehow.
The line I'm following goes. JOHN GREENLEES b 1881 Balmain, died 1951 wife Katherine A. MURRAY.
John GREENLEES parents are JOHN GREENLEES B 1854 Sydney died 1909 married Jane E. ACKROYD 1876.
Johns parents are JOHN GREENLEES died 1898 married in 1852 to Jane McMurray in Sydney.
John's parents are ROBERT GREENLEES and Isabella?? I don't have a birth year for John who died in 1898.
So there are three John's in a row all around the Balmain area.
Also curious as the the St Stephen reference 1945
-
Oh okay now I understand the 1945 Reference thanks
-
Just received Catherine (Katherines) birth record. Many thanks Dianna
-
So… the date of marriage is a fiction perhaps?
-
I think so! I may purcase the marriage certificate and see what it say's. I always check with my transcription agent to look for parents names as you know a lot of times they are missing.
Just looking in Queensland at the moment I MAY have stubbled on something. From Sophia Ellis death registration it say's mum is Mary and dad is John.
I just came across a newspaper article in Dalby Qld with the report of an accident with two children being killed in 1861. I looked for their respective deaths and found that their parents were MARY HELY/HEALY and JOHN LODER. The children were Elizabeth and Thomas.
Thomas birth is registered 22/12/1859 as LOWDER but no other children.
Could be they were living in a remote area. It looks promising!
-
Maybe worth considering!!!
-
marriage QLD BDM
Mary Healy
Event date: 12/02/1857
Event type: Marriage registration
Registration details: 1859/C/103Spouse: John Lawlon
Cass
-
Hi Cass is that perhaps another strange variant/mispelling. Thanks. Will keep digging around.
-
The drowned children are named here.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/19733119
Sue
-
The drowned children are named here.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/19733119
Regarding the news article about the drowning in the Condamine River in 1861 ...
There is now a “Loudon / Loudoun Bridge” over the Condamine River near Dalby.
I don’t know if this has anything at all to do with your search, but “Loudon” / "Louden" would be the more usual Scottish spelling for “Lowden”.
-
Hi Sue thanks for that, good to see the names mentioned there.
Neale 1961 that's interesting re the Loudon Bridge. Will have to investigate that. Many thanks the story is becoming more interesting.
I will have to check the names that Sophia Elizabeth Lowder gave her children with JOHN MURRAY maybe a clue. Regards Dianna
-
Good Morning all! I just ordered the marriage of John Murray to Sophia Lowder. Hope to find out more on both of them now. Kind regards Dianna
-
There are a number of newspaper mentions for Richard Murray, a shingler.
Insolvent and Estate
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228601964?searchTerm=%22Richard%20Murray%22%20AND%20shingle
There is possibly a death for him in Sydney
MURRAY RICHARD T 1861
Insolvency (this appears a few times in various papers)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251540268?searchTerm=%22Richard%20Murray%22%20AND%20shingle
Another mention regarding previous employment?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/59868841?searchTerm=%22Richard%20Murray%22%20AND%20shingle
-
There is a marriage in Sydney in 1852 for a Richard Murray to a Catherine Carty
-
Birth / Baptism?
MURRAY JOHN 277/1853 V1853277 70
parents- RICHARD and CATHERINE LA
MURRY JOHN 3126/1853 V18533126 141
Parents - RICHARD MURRY and CATHERINE LA
-
Theresa MURRAY also a daughter of Richard Murray and Catherine Carty
Born 1855 Sydney
She married 17 mar 1879 Sydney St. Michael to Ferdinand DRAEGER
Also
Richard J MURRAY born 1857 to Richard and Catherine
-
For possible future research
There is a Catherine CARTY who arrived onboard “Tippoo Saib” in July 1850
Age 16 a house servant from Longford
-
Hi Thanks very much for these. It's going to be a bit complicated I think but will try and sort it out. Such a common name. I've looked at the Devonshire St Cemetery as well a couple of Richard Murray's are there!
With Catherine CARTY who arrived in 1850!! The first child MARGARET of Richard MURRAY and Catherine was born in 1847 Sydney! That's of course this is correct.
Kind regards Dianna
-
RC Baptism for Richard MURRAY (age 18 mnths)
26 May 1833
ST Mary’s Cathedral
Father John MURRAY
Mother Catherine CRAMPTON
166 Vol 126
-
4 Murray births! Don't know if they are correct or not, maybe Richard and Catherine married after Margaret was born, just guessing.
-
I think Catherine Carty - Murray married again to a Francis FEENEY - more children born from abt 1860 in the Bathurst area.
-
Okay so possibly this Richard MURRAY you found baptised in 1833 is this guy in Devonshire street??
-
OH!! You read my mind. I wondered why Catherine FEENEY was listed as spouse on the headstone. LOL
-
Richard John Murray born 1857 died in 1858 – parents Richard and Catherine
-
So I am thinking …
Richard Thomas MURRAY – born Sydney abt Dec 1831 was the son of John Murray and Catherine Crompton.
He died in 1861, and had married Catherine Carty in 1852 – leaving two children.
Widow Catherine married or partnered a Francis Feeney
-
I think John Murray (father to Richard Murray) may have also been a shingler – I saw reference to that name when looking at Trove newspapers.
DEATHS 1858
MURRAY—September 2nd, at his residence, Clarence-street, John Murray, aged 66.
FUNERAL.—The friends of Mr. JOHN MURRAY, shingler, are respectfully requested to attend his funeral, the procession to move from his son HENRY'S residence, Clarence-street, near Market-street, THIS DAY, at 3 o'clock p.m. REUBEN THOMAS, undertaker, 141, York-street, late of 54, King-street.
-
There is a family tree on Ancestry – looks to be fairly well researched and has the following (briefly) …..
John MURRAY born abt 1809 Cork religion Roman Catholic – transported for stealing – arrived in 1829 – married Catherine Crompton 1830, - seven children (Richard was the first born)
Catherine CROMPTON born abt 1803 Dublin. Arrived in 1823 per “Woodman”. Married William Silk in Sydney in 1824 – three children; Married John Murray in 1830
-
Hi Yes I had made the mistake that thinking that the insolvency cases were related to an "intestate" situation. That is why I thought his death was in 1858 and confused it with the death of his son.
I think I have my head around it now and come to the same conclusion you have.
He was a cricketer apparently, died 1861 with that great headstone. Yes the story is coming together now, thanks so much. Dianna
-
That's great you found the family and the details. I was wondering when the "convicts" were going to pop up. Fantastic. Thanks
-
It all adds up by the looks of it!!
-
From the Colonial Secretary’s papers
Permission to marry in the Roman Catholic church 1824
Catherine CROMPTON (Crampton?) convict per “Woodman” 1823
William SILK convict per “Dorothy” 1820
Children: William Silk 1825; John William Silk 1826; Henry Silk 1828
I don’t know what happened to the marriage, but William Silk received his conditional pardon in 1847, but Catherine seems to have been with John Murray from about 1831 which is when Richard was born.
Catherine Silk 1832
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/252650108?searchTerm=%22Catherine%20Silk%22
Sydney gaol book Sept 1837
Catherine Silk “Woodman 1822” Catholic, born Dublin, servant
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12856685?searchTerm=%22Catherine%20Silk%22
24 Dec 1842 (trial 7th Feb)
Catherine Silk alias Murray per “Woodman” received 6 mnths hard labour for larceny. She pled guilty.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12420511?searchTerm=%22Catherine%20Silk%22
Index to Criminal cases
Catherine Silk, alias Murray. Per “Woodman”
Sydney 7 Feb 1843
Don’t know yet what the crime was here?
-
John MURRAY
Arrived 1818 per “Mary 1”. Conviction (age 16) for vagrancy in Cork. Sentence 7 years
Certificate of Freedom 10 March 1825
Native Place – Cork; labourer, age 22
5 feet ½ inch height; ruddy complexion; hair brown; eyes blue
-
Richard Murray the cricketer …. he was a left-hander :)
https://www.espncricinfo.com/cricketers/richard-murray-6674
-
Thanks so much for all of that information. That is a fun fact him being a left hander! LOL Something different for the family tree. Regards Dianna
-
Yes, this is the right Catherine Carty (see earlier post)
Catherine CARTY arrived onboard “Tippoo Saib” in July 1850
Age 16 a house servant from Longford
Catherine (aka Caroline) Murry
Bathurst gaol 28 Dec 1858
Born Dublin; house servant; Catholic; Arrived free in Australia per “Tippoo Saib”. 1 month confined for obscene exposure.
Feb 1859 Bathurst. Catherine Murry per “Tippoo Saib” - 6 months confinement under Vagrant act.
MARRIAGE
12 June 1860 St Bernards Roman Catholic Church, Hartley NSW
Caroline Catherine Murry, widow married Francis Feeney
(She was not a widow, because Richard Murray died in 1861)
There are numerous records for Catherine / Caroline Feeney (Feeny / Fenny/ Sweeney) in the Bathurst region for vagrancy, stealing, drunkedness, through the 1860s, 1870s and into the 1880s.
I don’t know if this is still her in 1905
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/157316452?searchTerm=%22Catherine%20Feeney%22
-
WOW Catherine is a character isn't she. LOL Called herself a WIDOW in 1860! I've seen that quite a few times. Thanks for the tip!! Will look more into her, interesting. Dianna
-
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/233580871/caroline_catherine_carty
This is very sad really poor Catherine (Caroline) Carty/Murray/Feeney.
I have just sent an email to the Bathurst Catholic Archives to see if they can find a few more details on the marriage certificate for Catherine/Francis Fingers crossed
Looks as though SABINA married as Elizabeth S Feeney to a Mr Sloggett and she died in Queensland.
A tangled family!!
-
Just a few small bits for your investigation on the other side of the family - LOWDER
Thomas LOWDER born 22 Dec 1859 QLD - Parents John LOWDER Mary HELY
Thomas LODER died 12 Nov 1861 - parents John LOSER and Mary HEALY
Elizabeth LODER died 14 Nov 1861 QLD - parents John LODER and Mary HEALY
Possibly the Elizabeth Loder birth 1858 Warialda NSW – parents John and Mary LODER.
You might find these births certificates give something useful as they should have information re parents ages and places of birth. I would go for the source image of Thomas birth - as fastest and most economical. ( These were the two children who drowned in the Condamine as mentioned earlier in this thread.)
There is a marriage in QLD 12 Feb 1857 Mary HEALY to John LAWLON
- Might be worth investigating
Not sure if this is the same family …
Martha LODER married 1850 QLD to Francis LYON (died 1910 QLD as Martha LYON) parents John and Mary LODER
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/48761539/martha-ann-lyon
-
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/233580871/caroline_catherine_carty
This is very sad really poor Catherine (Caroline) Carty/Murray/Feeney.
I have just sent an email to the Bathurst Catholic Archives to see if they can find a few more details on the marriage certificate for Catherine/Francis Fingers crossed
Looks as though SABINA married as Elizabeth S Feeney to a Mr Sloggett and she died in Queensland.
A tangled family!!
Other children ? -
Alfred Feeney Jan 1861
Caroline Mary Ann Feeney August 1862
-
One more snippet this shows Catherines parents! May help down the track. Thanks for the "extra" bits.
Catherine
Surname
Carty
Native Place
Longford
Age On Arrival
16
Parents
Michael & Mary (both dead)
Religion
Roman Catholic
Ship Name
Tippoo Saib (Sydney Jul 1850)
Details
shipping: house servant, cannot read or write, no relatives in colony.
Story
-
Where does that information come from?
Here?
https://irishfaminememorial.org/details-page/?pdb=6388
-
Yes that is where I found the informaton!!
Now I'm right into this whole story of these poor orphan girls on the Tippoo Saib. So interesting. I will try and find out where she was between 1850 and 1852 when she married Richard.
What a sad life. I will try and find out more on her daugter with Richard ie Teresa you gave me her marriage details! Thanks.
-
I was trying to find an image of that original document, incase there was more information - but no luck.
-
I will try and find out more on her daugter with Richard ie Teresa you gave me her marriage details! Thanks.
Her husband Ferdinand Draeger was a musician (violinist)
He came from a family of musicians
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215904049?searchTerm=Draeger%20AND%20violin
I think Teresa had a second marriage in 1887 Lithgow to James ELLIOTT
Added info for Draeger’s death
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222759504?searchTerm=“Ferdinand%20Draeger”
Download from here ( fascinating reading)
https://search.records.nsw.gov.au/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=INDEX58996&context=L&vid=61SRA&lang=en_US&search_scope=Everything&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=default_tab&query=any,contains,Draeger&offset=0
Teresa seems to be using the surname Purcell, so maybe a third marriage.
-
Hi What an unbelievably detailed intestate document that was. I have never seen anything like that before! Amazing. Such a shame there were details lacking on the marriage certificate. Thanks so much for that.
From what the find a grave bio said Catherine (Carty/Murray/Feeney) was estranged from the family.
Intemperance seemed to be a bit of a problem there. Will carry on with some research in the Bathurst area to hopefully find her death.
Who knows she may have reconciled with one of her family!! Many thanks
-
Hi What an unbelievably detailed intestate document that was. I have never seen anything like that before! Amazing. Such a shame there were details lacking on the marriage certificate. Thanks so much for that.
Isn't it a wonderful trove of information on the Draeger family, but also the information about Teresa's children and their adoptions is also very interesting. It also jogs my memory that I came across a mention of Teresa deserting - this must have been her escaping from the violence and the reason she had her 2nd child adopted.
The marriage certificate that is attached to that file is not the complete one that I found. It looks like an abridged copy. I will look for it again for the full version, and send it to you.
-
NSW Police Gazette 15 Dec 1886, page 387
“Theresa Murray, charged on warrant with deserting her child, has been arrested by Constable Danks, Waratah Railway Line Police. Remanded to Sydney”
-
Many thanks. Yes there maybe a more complete copy out there. Fingers crossed. Now I have "nearly" a concise timeline for CATHERINE Carty/Murray etc.
I've made a couple more enquiries and have also ordered her 1852 marriage to Richard. I realise it will have very little information but you never know.
As she would have been only 18 when she married maybe someone was acting as a guardian or?? for her.
So it looks like her son Richard J has died 25th June 1858 and then Catherine is listed first?? 28 December 1858 re Bahurts gaol and again 1859 6 months confinement.
I was going to go through all of the trove reports this morning BUT the site seems to be down!!
Anyway onwards and upwards. Dianna
-
Many thanks. Yes there maybe a more complete copy out there. Fingers crossed. Now I have "nearly" a concise timeline for CATHERINE Carty/Murray etc.
I started the following list of Catherine Carty's gaol entries yesterday, but only got to 1882. I know there were more before and after this .....
6 Jun 1867 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Entry 229. Released 8th June after paying the fine for stealing
23 Sep 1867 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeney. Drunkenness. 14 days confinement. No ship mentioned.
21 Oct 1867 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Fenny. Drunkenness. 6 months.
24 Jan 1868 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feely. Drunkenness. 7 days.
3 Mar 1868 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Fenny. 3 months imprisonment for vagrancy.
22 Nov 1870 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Caroline Catherine Fenny. Drunkenness. 24hours.
19 Jan 1871 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Caroline Feeney. Drunkenness. 7 days
26 Jan 1871 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeney. Drunkenness. 3 months.
1 May 1871 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeney. Drunkenness. 7 days. Indecent language. 2 months. Released 6th July.
10 Jul 1871 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Drunk 24hr.
13 Nov 1871 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Caroline Murray alias Feeney. Gulgong. Vagrancy. 6 months.
23 Sep 1872 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Caroline Catherine Feeney. Drunkenness. 48 hours.
25 Nov 1872 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Caroline Carthy alias Feeney. Arrested Wellington Oct 1872 for stealing £4 and a gold sample from Martin Moyce. Convicted on 25 Nov 1872 and sentenced to 18 months hard labour at Bathurst Gaol. Released 23 May 1874.
12 Jan 1875 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeney. Drunkenness. 24 hours. (And again on the 14th Jan).
8 Mar 1875 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Caroline Feeney. Indecent language. 2 months. Released 7th May.
11 May 1875 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine C. Feeney. Drunkenness. 7 days.
20 May 1875 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Fenny. Drunkenness. 7 days.
31 May 1875 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Fenney. Drunkenness. 7 days.
21 Mar 1878 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeney. Unbalanced mind - discharged 10 days later.
9 Oct 1880 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeny. Vagrancy. 1 month.
13 Apr 1881 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Fenny. Drunkenness. 48 hours.
20 Apr 1881 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Vagrancy. 1 month. Released 19th May.
6 Jun 1881 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeney. Vagrancy. 6 months. Released 5th Dec 1881.
24 Dec 1881 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Fenny. Vagrancy. 1 month. Discharged 23 Jan 1882.
April 1882 • Bathurst, New South Wales
According to a newspaper article, Catherine/Caroline spent 6 months in hospital from April until September 1882 following an accident.
3 Oct 1882 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Catherine Feeny. Charged with Vagrancy. Birthplace Ireland. Age 46. Released 2nd April 1883.
1882 • Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia
Wed 4 Oct 1882. Charged with vagrancy and sent to gaol for six months.
-
UNBELIEVABLE!!!! You could write a book on this lady! Poor thing honestly! This have been fascinating research. I think she could go into the Guiness book of records. LOL
-
It seems incredulous that this is all happening WHILE/DURING her having the Feeney kids.
1861-1869.
-
Not sure if you saw these items about R Murray, the cricketer.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225151876?searchTerm=%22R%20Murray%22%20AND%20cricket
Regarding injury and money raised
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13005406?searchTerm=%22R%20Murray%22%20AND%20cricket
-
There is a family tree on Ancestry – looks to be fairly well researched and has the following (briefly) …..
John MURRAY born abt 1809 Cork religion Roman Catholic – transported for stealing – arrived in 1829 – married Catherine Crompton 1830, - seven children (Richard was the first born)
I have looked some more at John MURRAY. Not too much to find, as he mostly seems to have been well-behaved. :D
John MURRAY abt 1802 Cork – 2 Sept 1858 Sydney
Arrived 1819 per “Mary 1”.
Conviction for vagrancy in Cork city. Sentence 7 years.
age 16; Occupation - Errand Boy.
John MURRAY age 16, height 5ft ½, fair ruddy complexion, light brown hair, grey eyes, native place Cork
13 March 1820 Gaol Entrance
John Murray per “Mary” – D Wentworth esq. 25 lashes on the breach
1822 (General Muster): John MURRAY per “Mary”, 7 years – labourer at Longbottom
[Longbottom Stockade was a Government farm which covered most of what is now Croydon by 1821.]
https://www.nationaltrust.org.au/ahf_event/the-longbottom-stockade/
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/17005869?searchTerm=%22Longbottom%20STockade%22
10 March 1825 Certificate of Freedom 106/3334
Native Place – Cork; labourer, age 22
5 feet ½ inch height; ruddy complexion; hair brown; eyes blue
10 July 1838 Gaol Entrance
John Murray – born Cork per “Mary 1819” Catholic; Carpenter - Confined 10 days, fine paid and bailed.
-
Hi thanks so much for the new information I had not seen the references to Richard in the newspaper re Devonshire st. I found that the headstones have been moved to Botany so I can visit them easily enough.
I have been sent a few snips of information from the Bathurst library that they had from the Bathurst Pioneers book.
I would just like to ask you re reply 53
Catherine (aka Caroline) Murry
Bathurst gaol 28 Dec 1858
Born Dublin; house servant; Catholic; Arrived free in Australia per “Tippoo Saib”. 1 month confined for obscene exposure.
Feb 1859 Bathurst. Catherine Murry per “Tippoo Saib” - 6 months confinement under Vagrant act.
Was this from an ancestry tree/other OR did you actually see this information from the newspapers or gazettes?
I have searched this morning in the newspapers and can find NOTHING on these entries for a Catherine MURRY (sic) or MURRAY for the dates 1858/9
Both times I have seen mention of Catherines incarerations she "apparently" has named the ship as TIPPORAPHO, which I imagine how she remembered it. LOL
Also I just checked and there was a CATHERINE MURRAY who arrived on the Tippoo Said, I should have checked before but decided to just in case there has been a mix up with the two ladies.
Just trying to get my ducks in a row. Many thanks Dianna
-
Both girls on Tippoo Saib
-
Those 2 entries come from the Bathurst Gaol Entrance Book on Ancestry. The writing on the ledger is not always easy to read, but I will try to give a full transcription below.
I was aware of the Catherine Murray (17) on board Tippoo Saib, and have been careful to not jump on just any record. I do think these are correct for your Catherine, given the location and information given.
Bathurst Gaol Entrance Book 1858
Entry 518
Caroline Murry, alias Catherine
Tipposabe 1848 – free
Born Dublin, Catholic, house servant
28 Dec 1858 Bathurst – 1 month confine; discharge 28 Jan 1859
Obscene Exposure
Bathurst Gaol Entrance Book 1859
Entry 73
Catherine Murry
Tipposabe 1848. See entry 518 in 1858
12 Feb 1859 Bathurst – 6 months confined; discharge 12 Aug 1859
Vagrant Act
[I tend to avoid looking at trees on Ancestry although I did note that they all have wrong parents (James & Bridget), and a variety of different / conflicting death dates for Catherine Carty.]
-
Hi Tank you for all your thoroughness! So many inconsistencies in these documents isn't there? She was from Co. Longford not Dublin and the ship arrived in 1850 BUT what can you do! These things happen all the time I guess.
I will make more enquiries in Ireland as well just in case there are records from the workhouse there OR Immigration Agents records Or??
Just found this snip in the newspaper! Interesting no clue how she THERESA MURRAY could be a niece of Richard Manning.
Also it was recorded in one newspaper article that Richard had a brother HENRY? Nothing found on a Henry Silk or Murray.
So many mysteries.
-
#OTD in 1861 Australian cricketer Richard Murray died of illness at just 30 years of age. His unique headstone was funded by his fellow cricket players, and was moved from the #DevonshireStreetCemetery to Pioneers Memorial Park in 1901. #DeadCentral.
ALSO Captain MORPHEW from the Tippoo Saib was in trouble after the ship arrived here.
SMH 21/9/1850.
Many thanks for all the time and effort you have put into this.
Can't thank you enough.
I just hope the Catholic archives in Bathurst can find the Marriage for me now.
-
ALSO Captain MORPHEW from the Tippoo Saib was in trouble after the ship arrived here.
Yes, I read about him.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/251539791?searchTerm=%22Tippoo%20Saib%22
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12921239?searchTerm=%22Tippoo%20Saib%22
-
The connection with Richard Manning (as far as I can make sense of it)
Richard MANNING married Catherine MURRAY in 1859
Catherine (1833) was the daughter of John Murray and Catherine Crompton, and therefore sister to your Richard Murray
Evening News (Sydney, NSW : 1869 - 1931), Friday 14 June 1889, page 4
MANNING. — In sad and loving remembrance of my dearly beloved sister, Katherine Manning, the wife of Richard Manning, of Pacific Foundry, Sydney, who departed this life on June 14, 1885. Inserted by her brother, James Murray, shingler and slater.
MANNING. — In loving memory of my dear aunt, Mrs. Richard Manning. Inserted by her loving niece, Theresa.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/108893340
-
OKAY got it now! Thanks so Manning was Theresa's uncle by marriage. Good! LOL
-
HI Everyone
Just recapping on the LOWDER story! ie Sophia Elizabeth LOWDER b Dalby Qld. I have just purchased the birth certificate of her brother Thomas.
Hopefully I can continue the research now as it say's that the father JOHN LOWDER was born in Sydney, if that is correct??
Does anyone know what is say's for informant. I can't quite make it out! Thanks to everyone. Kindest regards Dianna
-
Column headings have not been included in your clip
22nd December 1859 Warroo
Thomas - not present - male
John LOWDER – 52 years - Sydney
1857 - Ipswich Queensland, Two children
Mary HELY - 32 years (22?) – Six Mile Bridge, County Clare Ireland
In formation in writing certified by W H Hunt? – Warroo
Mrs Russle (perhaps she was the mid-wife)
G H Loneday? – 1860 20th January - Drayton
-
Sorry about no headings! I snipped only the portion! Thank you. So now I am looking for Mary Healy coming from County Clare to Qld. It may prove helpful!! (or frustrating).
This is a had nut to crack but will keep at it. Many thanks Dianna
-
Looks like it is "Sixmilebridge" in county Clare. Well at least I have her age and place of birth. Most probably an assisted immigrant. Onwards and upwards. Dianna
-
just a few thoughts….
I don’t think you can assume that Mary Healy immigrated directly to Qld.
John Lowder was a lot older than Mary - did he have an earlier marriage?
If John worked as a carrier, then he could have travelled extensively throughout the eastern states.
( I have an ancestor who worked as a carrier in this time period, and he travelled for work from the Gulf of Carpentaria across to the Qld coast and then inland as far south as Adelaide. His children were born in various places across the country.)
When Thomas was born, there was his sister Elizabeth, and there must have been another child born before that. I wonder who that was and what became of them.
-
Mentions of Mr. W H Hunt of Warroo
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4599210?searchTerm=Hunt%20AND%20Warroo
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/4599891?searchTerm=“W%20Hunt”%20AND%20Warroo
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3711013?searchTerm=“W%20Hunt”%20AND%20Warroo
-
John Loder of Dalby and horse stealing. There are numerous accounts of the same event
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215450207?searchTerm=“John%20Loder”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20324722?searchTerm=“John%20Loder”
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/215453318?searchTerm=“John%20Loder”
-
Thanks so much for all the reports. Wonder if that is JOHN LODER (Lowder) stealing the horse.
Seems possible given the area as Dalby and the year 1869!
With the abscence of birth certificates for 2 other possible children it is hard to know.
I do agree with you that Mary HEALY may not have come directly to Qld. I know there seems a big gap in their respective ages for John and Mary. Thanks
-
John Loder Court Book - sentence
https://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/api/download_file/DR61946
Scroll down to July 1869 to find John Loder. I think he is yours! ;D
-
It looks as he was sent to prison on St Helena, and he died there in 1870
Inquest into death here
https://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/api/download_file/DR77349
Some very difficult writing to decipher there! :)
-
Oh that is a horrible story. The horse was killed, I don't think I like John Loder very much.
-
St Helena Gaol Entry
Scroll down to prisoner 640
https://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/api/download_file/DR56516
-
I don't think I like John Loder very much.
You can’t choose your ancestors.
-
Toowoomba gaol discharge
https://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/api/download_file/DR115486
Entry number 138
-
John LODER 63yrs (Prisoner 640) burial 3 Nov 1870, St Helena Prisoner Cemetery has a surviving cross.
The prisoners were buried under their number not name.
-
Haney, Just in case you are not familiar with it, St Helena Island in Moreton Bay was the site of QLD's penal settlement. It is now a national park and you can take day trips from the mainland.
I remember having fun there on a school excursion - many years back now!
https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/parks/st-helena-island/about
-
Hi thanks Merlin that is great.
Also Neale prisoner 138 seems to be a Alfred Callahan or something. I thought I would just skim through the "dischages" for all of 1870, when he died isn't it.
Have I mixed something up. LOL Doesn't add up with John being born in Sydney does it. Of course that could be a mistake.
Will enjoy looking into St. Helena Island
-
ENTRY 138, towards the bottom of the ninth page. They are not in order
Starts with name of ship Chapman 1819.
https://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/api/download_file/DR115486
-
GOT IT!! Thanks so this John Loder arrived in 1819! Doesn't seem to add up somehow??
Him marrying in 1857 to Mary Healy! As you said before he could have been married anywhere in Aus. I guess
Conflicting evidence with him being born in Sydney or Ireland Age does seem to agree though with the birth certificate and trial documents
So where is the 4/5 year old (supposed) daughter Sophia Elizabeth born 1865!!
Where's mum!! Shame there are no family members mentioned in the court documents.
Of course this could be another different JOHN!! Time will tell (maybe)
Did she come to the Hunter region NSW c 1885/6 when her daughter was born in Newcastle in 1887.
Wow so much more to try and find. This family is going to do my head in I think. LOL
-
Just having a quick look at the "Chapman" One possibility is a JOHN LAWLER arrived Sydney in 1817, then John left Sydney on the Jupiter arrived in Tasmania and is on the 1819 Muster!!!
He was born 1798 in Dublin. There was a murder case or other on board this convict ship!
Don't know how this all adds up. I think with his marriage the name was similar to LAWLER!!!
-
I think this is the right John.
My first thought re his widow Mary, is that she would look to marry again. she was still young and had small children to feed.
I don’t think there was a ship Chapman in 1819, but maybe he came on the same ship in a different year.
-
Well I will look to see if Mary remarried if she didn't predecease him.
The "Chapman" convict ship arrived in 1817 in Sydney BUT John Lawler alias Lalor was in Tasmania in 1819, so maybe that is where the mix up was.
That one on the Chapman was a "shoemaker". Hmmmm
Seems to be a lot on him in Tasmania so I will see if I can get everything to link up. He was in a lot of trouble down there too (if that is him). THANKS
-
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/lawler/john/145388
A possibility I guess. LOL
-
https://convictrecords.com.au/convicts/lawler/john/145388
A possibility I guess. LOL
I"m doubtful. His age would be about 15 years out. Shoemaker to labourer is rather a step down.
There were at least 3 different voyages of the Chapman.
The other prison record that gives the ship's name as Chapman does not include a year.
I wonder if he could have come as a child with a father who was a soldier on Chapman 1817?
Or he had an alias, or changed his name completely to get rid of his convict past?
-
The ship Chapman sailed from Cork on the 14th of March 1817, with about two hundred convicts, a crew nearly as numerous, and forty soldiers.
Was he amongst the non-convicts?
-
Hi I would have to find the complete list of crew/soldiers/convicts on the Chapman, possible I guess
There was a book written on the 1817 journey of the "Chapman" would love to read that.
Mutiny or Murder?: The Bloodsoaked Voyage of the Chapman Convict Ship
One thing I will do is check out this death I found in Tasmania and perhaps eliminate the "convict" one.
I just imagined him leaving Tasmania and going to Qld where he met/married Mary Healy!!
Name:
John
Exact
Lawler
Exact
Death Age:
47
Birth Date:
1798
Exact
Death Date:
17 Jan. 1845
Death Place:
Hobart, Tasmania
Registration Date:
1845
Registration Place:
Hobart, Australia
Registration Number:
469
I'll see what I can find out on him first THEN move on I guess
-
One thing I will do is check out this death I found in Tasmania and perhaps eliminate the "convict" one.
Name:
John Lawler
Death Age: 47
Birth Date: 1798
Death Date: 17 Jan. 1845
Death Place: Hobart, Tasmania
Registration Date: 1845
Registration Place:
Hobart, Australia
Registration Number: 469
The death register shows he was a shoemaker. Which matches the indent.
https://libraries.tas.gov.au/Digital/RGD35-1-2/RGD35-1-2P43
-
Oh! Well maybe that is all I need to know Merlin. Just a strange coincidence with them both on the "Chapman" Back to the drawing board. LOL. Thank you!
-
Hi I would have to find the complete list of crew/soldiers/convicts on the Chapman, possible I guess
There was a book written on the 1817 journey of the "Chapman" would love to read that.
I suspect that any crew list and full passenger list would be in the UK archives. Don’t know how easy it would be to access.
if on that ship, your John would have been the right age to be a cabin boy, or apprentice seaman, if he wasn’t the son of a soldier.
I wonder if the NSW birth register for the daughter Elizabeth would add any more information that wasn’t on Thomas’ cert.? Maybe not; there was good information there for Mary.
-
I thought I would gamble with this one this morning and it did not pay off! LOL Waste of money really. It doesn't even state were they were living. Grrrrrr.
-
PARISH REGISTER from St Mary’s Catholic Church, Ipswich apparently is held by the Queensland Historical society. I think they will want too much money to check the records. May have to just leave it I think. Getting a bit too expensive now. I left a message on their facebook page but I think I know how it will go. LOL Dianna
-
I thought I would gamble with this one this morning and it did not pay off! LOL Waste of money really. It doesn't even state were they were living. Grrrrrr.
But, at least now you know it is not your couple.
John Lawlon was a grazier on the McIntyre River; and he was literate. He could not be your John L.
-
Hi Neale
Thanks for your input and help. Well to tell you the truth I really don't know what is what with this family SO on the tree I am just going to put that Sophia Elizabeth parents are JOHN LOWDER and MARY HEALY as that is what she has on her marriage certificate and just leave it at that.
Without a birth certificate I can never know for sure! Maybe she was with her mother in NSW?? As Sophia seems to have had TWO children with JOHN MURRAY before they were married Theresa L 1886 Central Cumberland and Catherine A. 1887 Newcastle.
So Sophia must have been in the general area prior to that! Anyway thank you for all your fantastic help. Regards Dianna