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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: lmgnz on Saturday 30 March 24 06:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am wondering if there is any way to check online the records for this marriage which several trees in Ancestry have put at Maybole, Ayrshire on 18 Dec 1824. I would really like to know who was John William Henry's father.
I have looked in the Scotlands People index and cannot see the marriage so I think someone must have looked at an original record? It would be good to know if there are old church records availabe that someone could have looked at.
I have several DNA matches in the family of John William Henry so I am fairly sure he was probably a cousin of my 3x gt grandfather Bryce Henry who was born c 1802 in Shanrod Co Down, son of Brice Henry born c1773. There is a letter written by John William Henry to the Henry family of Shanrod in 1840 from Australia where they emigrated in 1838. The asterisks just note the families in which I have DNA matches. Isaac Henry was actually born on the ship "William Rodgers" while the passengers were still in quarantine. The older children were born in Kirkoswald.
FAMILY OF JOHN WILLLIAM HENRY AND MARGARET MCSEVENY
Agnes Clara Henry b c1823 m 1840 to EdwardSpinks
* Thomas Henry b 31 Jan 1826
Adamea (Ellen) Henry b 29 Mar 1828
John Nelson Henry b 26 Feb 1830
Bryce Nelson Henry b 8 Jul 1832
James Henry b 17 Aug 1834
William Henry b 26 Oct 1836
AUS Isaac Henry b 16 Dec 1838
Hugh Henry b 27 Nov 1840
* Margaret Mary Henry b 7 Aug 1842
David Henry b 11 Jul 1844
* Jacob Henry b 25 May 1846
Agnes Henry b 11 Oct 1848
Any help with the Scottish marriage record would be appreciated,
Cheers
Linda
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If you search Scotlands People for marriages in Maybole in 1824 with no names the nearest marriage that comes up is
ROSS MARION - ARCHIBALD MCGILL/FR1004 (FR1004) 05/12/1824 Maybole
If you pay to view their marriage on the parish records no marriage are shown for 18th Dec that year or the couple you are looking for
Kay
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Even if a marriage were found - for marriages around the 1820’s info was sparse so there is no guarantee it would contain details of parents.
Are you certain the children listed all belong to the same family?
You have an Agnes Clara b c1823 but then another Agnes b 1848 - 25yrs later??
If Agnes Clara married 1840 but parents married Dec 1824 unless she was born before the marriage she would only have been born 1825 so would have been 15 in 1840
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John Hendrie/Margaret McLaveny
Marriage 9 Jan 1825, Maybole, Ayrshire, Scotland
(Familysearch.Org)
Headstone 1848 has him native of Glasgow and born c 1802
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Thank you all for your suggestions.
Trish, is that 1848 headstone you have for John Hendrie in Australia? The date of death I have for John William Henry is 20 July 1849, Riversdale. So the marriage though similar is robably a differnt couple.
I have only really just started actively searching this family myself now and those children listed are from other trees, and might not be accurate. I may have made the list several years ago (before I DNA tested) when I was looking to extend the family of my 3x gt grandfather Bryce Henry born c1802. By using the name Bryce as a marker I reached the following family.
Family of Brice Henry (1773-1852) and Mary Nelson (1772-1850)
James Henry b Jun 1798 d 1849 m Mary Nelson
Agnes Henry b c1801 m R Allen
* Bryce Henry b c1802 d 1879 m Eliza Ewing
Revd John Henry b 1807 d 1885 m Eliza Porter
Nelson Henry b c1810 d 1881 m Margaret Mulligan
* Mary Henry b c1813 m James McIlroy
Thomas Henry b c 1815 d 1901 m Mary Jane Kirkpatrick
* Isaac Henry b c 1817 d 1884 m Mary Mulligan
Brice Henry of Shanrod Co Down also had a brother John Henry of Shanrod who married an Agnes Nelson, so I think the two children of John William Henry, John Nelson Henry and Bryce neslon Henry are named after them.
Regarding the frist child, there are trees who say Agnes Clara Henry, who married in 1840, as born in Kirkoswald on 29 Mar 1824. In his letter back to Ireland, John William refers to her as his oldest daughter ( though not by name) and that she was married to an Edward Spenks (Spinks).
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Regarding the second Agnes born 1848, there is always the possibility she was actually a child of an older daughter though in NSW BDM index (I just looked) both birth and death show her parents names as John and Margaret.
Several trees refer to her as "Agnes the younger"!. This Agnes married an Edward Rolfe in 1865
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Hi Kay
Thank you for that 1824 marriage. I had searched for any Henry (or Hendry) marriage in Maybole from 1820 to 1830 and found only one, a Mary Henry in 1823. But I have no idea if John William was in Ayrshire with other members of his family (for whom I have no records) or because he was there for work.
But is does show that Scotlands People does have some records from Maybole.
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HENDRIE JOHN MARGARET MCLAVENY/FR1004 09/01/1825 MAYBOLE
Based on Trish's post this looks like the record on Scotlands People
Kay
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Thank you Kay
I will go back to the marriages after I update my records with the Kirkoswald dates if births for the children. Most briths show their mother as Margaret Savany.
It may be worth actually viewing that marriage.
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Image of Headstone is on Familysearch.Org;
John Henry
Principal
Find a Grave Index
Burial Jamberoo, New South Wales, Australia
Birth 1802
Death 18 July 1848
Part of Inscription;
JOHN HENRY Snr
Late of
Riversdale near Kiama
A Native of Glasgow
Who Departed This Life
18th July 1848
Aged 46 years
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Hi Trish
Yes that is him.Thank you. Interesting it says native of Glasgow. I will now go spend some money on the marriage.
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Don't bother. I just took a look at it and as expected it sheds no new light, other than that is it definitely McLaveny, not a misindexing of McSeveny.
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Thank you Forfarian. Just in time as fortunately I kept making mistakes (like looking in state recirds instead of church records) and had not yet got to the marriage. It was going to be a long shot anyway as I thought it might not show the name of John's father.
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See details of baptisms of this family - all images available on Scotland's People.
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Yes Marriage was a long shot.
Ship Record has him as native of County Down, Ireland and Margaret also.
Difficult one.
Trish :)
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I will go back to the marriages after I update my records with the Kirkoswald dates if births for the children. Most briths show their mother as Margaret Savany.
It would not surprise me if McLaveny is an error by the parish clerk. There are five records with (Mc)S*v*n*y and only one with (Mc)L*v*n*y. Maybe it was the clerk in Maybole who misrecorded an L instead of an S. (This is very common - I research Sang and it's astonishing how often they turn up in parish registers as Lang - and even more often as mistranscriptions.)
SP has 711 records of McS*v*n*y and only 26 of McL*v*n*y - Could all 26 be incorrect McS*v*n*y records?
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Thank you again Forfarian
I was just about to say the only correction I have for the dates for the children is that Scotlands People have 26 Sep 1836 for William Henry.
Adamea, Edemia seems to have various spellings for her name.
I have not found the fist Agnes in Ayrshire but haven't tried all the different version of Henry.
I was typing this when Trish posted. So it didn't send.
I will just add that the source for the letter from John William Henry written from Jamberoo in 1840 was a book with a transcript of that letter.
“The History of the Nesbitt Family sometime resident in the townland of Corglass” by Robert Nesbitt. JP. 1930. Robert was the Robert Nesbitt b c1855 who married a granddaughter of James Henry b 1798
James Henry was the oldest brother of my 3x gt grandfather Bryce Henry. Apparently James was born in Scotland in 1798 because his father Brice Henry had sent his wife Mary nee Nelson to Scotland for safety, away from the Irish uprising of 1798. Brice himself may have been a little involved in the uprising. The family of Mary Nelson of Garvaghy's were also from Scotland according to Robert nesbitt.
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Hi Forfarian
Yes I think it is likely a mistranscription by the clerk. I have not checked yet but from someone I must have got the information that Margaret may have been born in Scotland c 1807. A younger brother, John McSeveny was born Kirkoswald in1809
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However I cannot confirm either McSeveny or variant birth in Kirkoswald from Scotlands People, so I will delete that note.
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I have not found the fist Agnes in Ayrshire but haven't tried all the different version of Henry.
Use wild cards - search for h*n*r* - it will produce a lot of unwanted Hendersons but you can just disregard them.
Or to avoid the Hendersons do two searches - one for h*n*r*i* and one for h*n*r*y - that should pick up all variants of Hendry but not Henderson.
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Thank you Forfarian.
I had guessed that was what you had done to search McSeveny and tried it for those two births but was not sure the negative results was because I did not get it right. So just looked for all Johns born Kirkoswald in a narrow time period. I don't mind the sifting.
It was getting a but lite for me by that time though, so I did not try the H*n*r* until this morning with as you predicted lots of Hendersons. Still no Agnes however.I did find Thomas Henry b 1826 with that search, so it worked. My best guess for the father of John William Henry would be the one other Shanrod Henry brother mentioned in the Nesbitt History. He was a Thomas Henry.
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If Agnes the elder was born in 1824, she was clearly born before her parents' marriage and her baptism may not have been recorded.
I have looked at every baptism of an Agn*s or a Nan* in Kirkoswald or Maybole 1823-1825, and I have read through the minutes of the Kirk Sessions of both parishes, but I have not found any record of Agnes the elder either.
Of course if her parents were not members of the Church of Scotland they would not have been summoned for discipline by the Kirk Session.
Where did her date of birth come from? Is it from a later Australian record?
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There are several hints that have that date of birth for Agnes as 29 Mar 1824 though one of them is for Geneanet Community trees and it has birth location as Castle Douglas, Kirkudbright. Another has a photo of the old Kirkoswald Chuch but gives the same location; castle Douglas.
The actual shipping record for Sep 1838 gives her age as 15 so I have stayed with a birth c 1823. ZAgnes' age is not stated on her marriage record for 25 Mar 1840. Death index record for 1865 does not give her age.
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Oh dear.
Never trust anything you find online unless it's an image of an original document (and even then be wary because even official documents can and do contain errors), and especially do not trust trees submitted to the likes of Ancestry, MyHeritage, Geni, Geneanet, FindMyPast, Wikitree and 1001 other commercial genealogy web sites out there.
If you find something of interest on one of these sites, follow it up until you find the original source from which the information came. I see, for instance, that there is a very detailed tree on Wikitree, so you could contact the owner of that tree and compare notes. (That tree also gives the date of marriage as 18 December 1824, which is at variance with the record on Scotland's People, so that too would need to be clarified.)
It does sound as if someone has been getting a bit mixed up with the geography! The fact that the 'sources' say 'Castle Douglas' is in itself curious, because Castle Douglas is in the parish of Kelton, county of Kirkcudbright, 52 miles by road from Kirkoswald in Ayrshire. In 19th century terms, when the only way to travel on land was by muscle power, that's about two days' travel. Any original record would come under Kelton, not Castle Douglas.
I've had a look at the Kirkcudbrightshire baptisms and there are no possible baptisms that could be your Agnes the elder, either in Kelton or anywhere else. So wherever that date of birth came from, either it almost certainly wasn't from the original Scottish records or it is the wrong person.
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Hi Forfarian
Yes I agree it is very important to verify information from trees in Ancestry. I had not done this earlier as it is only more recently that I have been finding multiple DNA matches.
I do remember (and documented ) that the tree I had originally seen and thought quite reliable was a McSeveny tree (by Oldcummock of Ayrshire Scotland). That tree had John William Henry's father as William Henry or Hendry but when I asked her, she could not verify a source.