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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Poppy239 on Sunday 07 April 24 23:28 BST (UK)
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Hello. I cannot find this birth record, whatever I try!
Ernst Joseph Katejan Franz Marno born 1844 Vienna
Katejan sometimes spelt Cajetan
Possibly born 13th January
Possibly born in Breitensee
I have suspicions about how he may fit into my family.
Anyone who is used to reviewing Austrian records, I would be so grateful.
Best wishes
Poppy
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https://www.wien.gv.at/english/history/archives/ancestors.html
There was no civil registration before 1938.
So first we need to know whether he was Catholic, Protestant or Jewish.
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Looking at the Screenshot‘s poppy Posted in Handwriting they were catholics
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Yes they were certainly Catholic.
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I have previously trawled Matricula. I find that it’s a case of coming across the right church and then trawling some more! I always worry that I will miss something because I’m not familiar with the language and the lettering.
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If he belongs to the family that I suspect he may do, I can narrow it down to the churches where his potential siblings were baptised.
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Baptisms at St. Stephan (Stephansdom):
Ernst b 1844 Wien, d 1883 Khartoum
Baptism: https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/01-st-stephan/01-114/?pg=5 (Haus #738)
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?? b 1845
Baptism: https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/01-st-stephan/01-114/?pg=215 (Haus #738)
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Otto Maximilian Eduard b 1846 Wien, d 1914 Graz
Baptism: https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/01-st-stephan/01-114/?pg=332 (Haus #738)
Registration Graz: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVH-BH5L?i=2676
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Adolf Johann Maria b 1848
Baptism: https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/01-st-stephan/01-115/?pg=11 (Haus #738)
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Karolina Maria Elisabeth b 1849
Baptism: https://data.matricula-online.eu/de/oesterreich/wien/01-st-stephan/01-115/?pg=145 (Haus #738)
FYI only: there was this other Marno (born London) in Graz as well: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVH-B4DF?i=2674
He was living with a Christine Schindler: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSYS-VQ9J-L?i=441
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Hello
This is so wonderful! How can I thank you enough :)
I am unable to read much of this text. Is this something that you might be able to help with also?
I would hate to encroach on too much more of your time and so if not, I’m sure that someone else would be able to.
Once again - I have been after this information for years and I’m incredibly appreciative of your help!
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Hi Treespirit
?? b 1845
Nothgetauftes Mädchen
Sick children had an emergency baptism just in case they died. this ensured them a christian burial
Hi Poppy
i can help you but this is going to take time. I have a lot on my plate at the time
Dave
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Hello davecapps
The last thing I want to do is take too much of anyone’s time.
I am grateful for anything at all that anyone has time to do :)
Thanks again
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Hi Treespirit
?? b 1845
Nothgetauftes Mädchen
Sick children had an emergency baptism just in case they died. this ensured them a christian burial
Hi Poppy
i can help you but this is going to take time. I have a lot on my plate at the time
Dave
That's great Dave. I can cope with some German, but it is old script that I am extremely bad at (and not just when it is German). So, finding stuff is one thing, deciphering it is another story ... LOL
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Thanks to both of you. I’m in awe that either of you would know where to begin! :)
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Hi Poppy,
I'd noticed that Ernest - despite his many travels - stayed registered with his family (Otto and "mum" Elise) in Bäckerstraße 20 during the 1870's and early 1880's.
In 1872 the brother of Caroline Elise Schindler died and a year later his probate mentioned that Elise's children would get some money. However, only Adolf, Christine, Valerie und Karoline Marno were mentioned and not Ernest and/or Otto. This had made me a bit suspicious and had wondered whether Elise might have been their stepmother, but could not confirm or deny this until those St. Stephan baptisms had turned up.
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This is all amazing - I’m not quite sure where they fit into my tree yet but I feel sure that they will and hope that any translations I get help me to finally work this out. In the meantime, you are bringing this to life so wonderfully, thank you!! Did you ascertain this info from reading the German or am I missing a trick?
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Found a little time this evening
Here you go
Transkriptions first Translations later
Ernst b 1844 Wien
Namen des Taufenden
Franz Hüber: Curat
Jahr, Monat, tag
Geboren am 13ten Getauft am 14ten Jänner 1844
Haus nr 738
Ernst Joseph Cajetan Franz
Vater:
Kajetan Georg
Marno kath(olisch) Bürg(liche)
Handelsmann
von Tattenitz in
Mähren Olmützer
Kreises, Sohn des
Benedikt Marno
Waldbereiter
und der Theresia
geborene Heger dessen
Ehegattin
Mutter
Karolina Elisabeth
Kath(arina) von
Zwittau in
Mähren
Olmützer
Kreises
Tochter des
Franz Schind
ler Mühlen
besitzer und der
Elisabeth geb.
Krautwurst
dessen Ehegattin
Pathen
Lawwe Ellrich
Bürg(er) und Han-
delsmanns
Gattin
Bemerkungen
Theresia Pelam
Hebamme
Copuliert
Mödnitz in Mähren
am 24 Nov. 839 laut ein
gesehenem
Cop(ulation) Schein
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?? b 1845
Nothgetauftes Mädchen (emergency baptism, girl)
8.August.1845
House no 738
Cajetan Marno
Bürg(liche) Handelsmann (civil tradesman / merchant)
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Otto Maximilian Eduard b 1846
Namen des Taufenden
Johann Breuer: Curat
Jahr, Monat, tag
Geboren am
16 ten und Ge
tauft am 22 Oktober
1846
Haus nr 738
Otto Maximilian Eduard
Vater:
Herr Kajetan Marno
kath(olisch) Relig(ion), Bürg(liche) Han
delsmann, Sohn des Herrn
Benedikt Georg Marno
Waldbereiter
zu Märisch Tribau
und der Theresia
dessen Ehegattin
geb Heger
Mutter
Karolina Eli
sabeth Schindler
kath(olisch) Relig(ion)
Tochter des Franz
Schindler
ein Mühlen
besitzers zu
Mödnitz und
der Elisabeth
dessen Ehegat
tin geb.
Krautwurst
Pathen
Joseph Ellers
v(on) h(ier)
Handels
mann und Haus
inhaber
N 51
Anmerkungen
Hebamme
Maria Schulze
Altenvorstadt
No 195
Cop(uliert) l(aut) eingereichte
em Trauungs
schein am 24
Novemb(er) 1839
in der Pfarre
in Mödnitz in Mähren
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Adolf Johann Maria b 1848
Namen des Taufenden
Franz Hüber: Curat
Jahr, Monat, tag
Geboren
am 26 Jänner
getauft
am 2ten Feb(ruar) 1848
Haus nr 738
Adolph Johann Maria
Vater:
Herr Kajetan Marno
kath(olisch) Relig(ion), Bürg(liche) Han
delsmann, von Ta
ttenitz in Mähren
Olmützer Kreises
Sohn des Benedikt
Franz Marno
Waldbereiter
und der Theresia
geb Heger des
sen Ehegattin
Mutter
Karolina Eli
sabeth Schmid
kath(olisch) Relig(ion)
von Zwittau
in Mähren Olmützer Krei
ses, Tochter
des Franz
Schindler
Postmeister
und der Eli
sabeth geb Krautwurst
dessen Ehegat
tin
Pathen
Joseph Ellers
v(on) h(ier)
Bürgerliche Handelsmann
und Hausinhaber
in H?? N 51
Anmerkungen
Maria Schul
ze Hebamme
in allgemeinen Kran
kenhäuser
Copuliert den
24 Nov 1839
in Mödnitz in
Mähren Brunnen
kreises, laut
eingeschriebene
Cop(ulations) Schein
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Karolina Maria Elisabeth b 1849
The text is the same as the others
Good night
Dave
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https://www.mza.cz/actapublica/matrika/detail/4051?image=216000010-000253-003369-000000-001358-000000-00-B01754-02090.jp2
This is the Marno/ Schindler wedding in 1839, which was in Modřice, (note spelling German name was Mödritz ) near Brno (German name Brünn)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod%C5%99ice
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Did you ascertain this info from reading the German or am I missing a trick?
Yes it is from German
e.g.: regarding Alois Rudolf Schindler's 1872 death:
Sterberegister: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSYV-73WN-6
His obit and probate:
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Davecapps - so kind of you to do this transcription so late at night! I am very grateful as I have been able to place Ernst as my great grandfather’s uncle. What a breakthrough! Thank you!
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Hello Fiddlerslass, thanks so much for taking an interest in this and for the link - I am making more breakthroughs this week than I thought possible.
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Hello again TreeSpirit
I’ve lost my way a little in terms of how Alois and Elise fit into my family and I hope to sort this out over the weekend. In the meantime, I thank you so much for your continued interest and the links - it’s so thrilling to obtain new material to read and print and record forever.
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(Caroline) Elise Schindler is Ernst (1844)'s mother and Alois Schindler is Ernst's uncle
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Ah I see, ‘Elise’ is Karolina Elisabeth! They do like to throw us these curve balls 🤣
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The Moravian marriage of 1839 shows Kajetan Marno was a widower. His first marriage was to the 17 year old Clara Kugler on 7 Oct 1832 Vienna Gumpendorf.
Here is his baptism 7 Aug 1799 at Tattenitz, Czech name Tatenice, you will need a free Familysearch login if you don't already have one.
Name Latinised to Cajetanus Georgius, of house 180
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GGD9-9STG?i=146&cc=1804263&cat=1921588
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatenice
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I have a FamilySearch account and have just clicked on the link, which is just incredible. They never could have imagined that we would be looking at this on our screens two centuries later. How everyone isn’t addicted to genealogy is a mystery to me!
Thank you again for your continued interest in my family. I can’t wait to see where this goes next.
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Translations
Ernst Joseph Cajetan Franz, born on the 13th , was baptized on the 14th January 1844
by Curate Franz Hüber
father Kajetan Georg from Marno
Civil Tradesman, catholic, from Tattenitz in Moravia Olmützer Kreis
Son of Benedikt Marno, forester
and his wife Theresia nee Heger
mother, Karolina Elisabeth Katharina from Zwittau in Moravia Olmützer Kreis
Daughter of Franz Schindler, Mill owner
and his wife Elisabeth nee Krautwurst
Godparent, Lawwe Ellrich, wife of a Civil Tradesman
Remarks
midwife, Theresia Pelam
They married on the 24 Nov 1839 in Mödnitz in Moravia
in accordance with the presented marriage certificate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adolph Johann Maria, born on the 26th of January, and baptized on the 2nd February 1848
by Curate Franz Hüber
father Kajetan Georg from Marno
Civil Tradesman, catholic, from Tattenitz in Moravia Olmützer Kreis
Son of Benedikt Marno, forester
and his wife Theresia nee Heger
mother, Karolina Elisabeth Katharina from Zwittau in Moravia Olmützer Kreis
Daughter of Franz Schindler, post master
and his wife Elisabeth nee Krautwurst
Godparent, Joseph Ellers, Civil Tradesman and house owner
Remarks
midwife, Maria Schulze, in the local hospitals
They married on the 24 Nov 1839 in Mödnitz in Moravia
in accordance with the presented marriage certificate
----------------------------------------------------------
Otto Maximilian Eduard , born on the 26th of January, and baptized on the 2nd February 1848
by Curate Franz Hüber
father Kajetan Georg from Marno
Civil Tradesman, catholic, from Tattenitz in Moravia Olmützer Kreis
Son of Benedikt Marno, forester in Tribau Moravia
and his wife Theresia nee Heger
mother, Karolina Elisabeth Katharina from Zwittau in Moravia Olmützer Kreis
Daughter of Franz Schindler, mill owner in Mödnitz
and his wife Elisabeth nee Krautwurst
Godparent, Joseph Ellers, Civil Tradesman and house owner
Remarks
midwife, Maria Schulze, Altenvorstadt No 195
They married on the 24 Nov 1839
in accordance with the presented marriage certificate
in the rectorate in Mödnitz, Moravia
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Hello Davecapps
Thanks for this translation, really kind. I hadn’t understood who Joseph Ellers was, Google Translate is fairly hopeless!
No doubt this information will lead me to more transcriptions and translations needed! If you spot them on Rootschat I will always be very grateful for help but whatever you do, don’t feel obliged as I realise the work involved.
Thank you again!
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Hi
It would make things easier
If you Point me to a specific dokument
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Will do! Thanks again :)
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I have no idea how the "from" Marno crept into my translation ???
Never mind you know better
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Doesn’t matter at all!
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Hello Davecapps
Do you think that this marriage record may have additional information in it?
https://www.mza.cz/actapublica/matrika/detail/4051?image=216000010-000253-003369-000000-001358-000000-00-B01754-02090.jp2
Was kindly posted earlier in the thread :)
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Poppy,
In the 1850's another 3 siblings are born. I believe that you've got Ludvig, but do you have the other 2 as well?
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Hello TreeSpirit :)
Thank you for your message. I have been trying to find Valerie, who you mentioned in your previous message.
So far I have:
Ernst, born 1844
Otto, born 1846
Adolph, born 1848
Carolina, born 1849
Julius, born 1850
Ludwig, born 1852
Christina, born 1854
Cornelia, born 1858
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Valeria Maria Theresia b 1856: https://data.matricula-online.eu/en/oesterreich/wien/14-penzing/01-12/?pg=306
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Hi Treespirit
how can i download the marriage doc from
https://www.mza.cz/actapublica/matrika/detail/4051?image=216000010-000253-003369-000000-001358-000000-00-B01754-02090.jp2
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Hi Poppy
these are only the additional infos i can see
he was a widow when he married
Elisabeth Schindler nee Krautwurst died before the wedding
I´ll have a look at the text lines at the bottom
It´s about the father consenting to the marriage and the documents they needed to marry etc etc
get back to you later
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Thanks to both of you. I’m just going through the info you’ve so kindly brought to light for me.
I wonder whether I rather missed a trick on Matricula. I don’t think my trawling was very effective and clearly it’s possible to zoom in using dates and things. I must try to get the hang of it in order to cast my net wider to some other names in the tree.
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Here´s the first part. Rest later
Zu dieser Ehe unseren Tochter habe ich meiner Einwilligung
gegeben in Gegenwart obige Zeugen.
Franz ??
Johann ??
Joseph Ellers
I have given my consent to our daughter´s marriage in the presence of the above witnesses.
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Poppy,
Is this the same family Schindler of Zwittau from whence Oskar Schindler of Schindler's List fame is descended?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svitavy
Catholic records for Svitavy are on familysearch
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/1930038?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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Heirat Marno 1839, bottom right
Taufschein des Bräutigams Tattenitz den 29 Juny 1824, Verkündschein Wien den 13 November 1839
Todtenschein der + Ehegattin des Bräutigams, Wien Pfarre Gumpendorf am 27ten Oktober 1839
Heiratsbewilligung vom Girlitzer Oberamte dto 9 November 1839. Taufschein der Braut
dedato Zwittau am 26ten Oktober 1839. Nachsicht des 2ten und 3ten Aufgebothes vom Brunner k. k. Kreis-
amt, dedato 4 Novber 1839. aufbewahrt im Pfarrarchiv Fach III Fasc: x/1839 Nro. 9
Daß alle nach schriftkatholischem Gebrauche getraut wurden bestätiget. D. Engelbert Richter Pfarrer
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Presented documents
Grooms baptismal certificate from Tattenitz den 29 Juny 1824,
his marriage permit from Wien den 13 November 1839
death certificate of the grooms deceased Wife, Wien Pfarre Gumpendorf am 27ten Oktober 1839
Marriage permit from the Girlitzer Oberamte dto 9 November 1839.
Brides baptismal certificate dedato Zwittau am 26ten Oktober 1839.
Confirmation of the 2nd and 3rd Banns from Brunner parish county office, dedato 4 Nov 1839. kept in the parish archive, compartment III Fasc: x/1839 Nro. 9
D. Engelbert Richter, priest, confirmed that all the documents conformed to catholic custom and tradition
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Hello Davecapps :)
Forgive me it’s been a long day! So are we saying that Franz Schindler was married twice?
Thanks again for translating
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Hi Fiddlerslass :)
I hadn’t realised where Oskar Schindler was from. Now that you have drawn my attention to it, I feel that you are almost certainly correct. I had assumed Schindler to be a common name and perhaps it is, but the location makes it incredibly likely that he’ll be on the tree somewhere and I will be working on this over the weekend now! Thanks for making me think about this - not sure how to feel!
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Thank you TreeSpirit for finding Valeria for me :) Hopefully I’ve built their whole family group now. For years I’ve had no idea there were all these siblings.
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Hi Treespirit
how can i download the marriage doc from
https://www.mza.cz/actapublica/matrika/detail/4051?image=216000010-000253-003369-000000-001358-000000-00-B01754-02090.jp2
I haven't really used that site, but it seems that it is like the Italian Antenati site where you can only do a screen print or open an image in a new tab. In both cases the result is what you can see on your screen only (re content and size). I'm sure there could be some trick for a better result, but I don't know what it could be.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6PZ7-3ZNR
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6PZ7-33ZZ
Birth records for Karolina and Alois Schindler if anyone can help. TreeSpirit - Alois has a different middle name to that in the info you kindly posted. I wonder whether there were two middle names as is often the case….?
Thanks in advance to anyone who can help :)
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Hard reading, not 100% sure
Priest
Anton Pächter
?
Name
Schindler
Karolina
Elisabeth
Katharine
Midwife
Josepha Häuserschild
nr. 305
Father
Schindler, Franz
Postmeister
Mutter
Elisabeth
daughter of Sterzel? Krautwurst, master brewer and citizen
from Zwittau
Godparents
Karl Krautwurst from Brünn
Elisabeth, wife of the master brewer Sterzel Krautwurst from Zwittau
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Priest
Johann Debel
?
Name
Schindler
?? (could be two names)
??
Alois Johannes
Midwife
Josepha Häuserschild
nr. 305
Father
Schindler, Franz
Postmeister
Mutter
Elisabeth
Daughter of Sterzel? Krautwurst
master brewer and citizen from Zwittau
Godparents
1 Karl Krautwurst, citizen and master brewer
2 wife of the master brewer and citizen Sterzel Krautwurst
from Zwittau
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Could the indecipherable first name be Wenzel?
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Thanks Davecapps so much for the translations once again.
Fiddlerslass - you may be right, I Googled the names it and so happens that MyHeritage have this on record. Though of course they may have transcribed incorrectly, which happens occasionally.
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Could the indecipherable first name be Wenzel?
Yes, here written as Wenzl
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good work :D
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Thanks all of you. So exciting to be back to 1700s. Can’t wait to see where this goes next :)