RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: wyanga on Saturday 27 April 24 04:31 BST (UK)
-
Would there be any newspaper or local reports that might have reported the death of Alexander Grierson in the period between 1851 and 1855 at Barnacabber . Dunoon Kilmun Parish.
Alexander is in the 1851 census , listed as a pauper mason at Barnacabber. Official death records start in 1855 and there is no listing for him.
His wife Helen is listed under her maiden name of Mckellar at Ardentinny, living with a sister Catherine Thompson . a daughter Sophiw Grierson is also listed there. as a widow in the 1861 census.
I believe that Alexander Grierson must have died between the 1851 census and befoe deaths were registered in 1855.
Wyanga
-
Just to add,
If there are any records from the Church at Ardentinny they just might record a death.
I believe that this was the Church used by the Glenfinert estate. Barnacabber was the farm for Glenfinnert Estate, and Alexander worked as a mason on the renovations at Glenfinnert in the 1840's
Wyanga
-
Additional info not included in post
1851 shows him as 88yrs old - Helen was 46
-
It's always tricky trying to find deaths before 1855.
If he was a pauper mason it's unlikely that the newspapers would have reported his death, but I have checked anyway and found nothing in the British Newspaper Archive.
It's unlikely that a pauper family would be able to afford a gravestone, but it may be that the family prospered later and eventually commemorated him on a gravestone. I do not know, however, if there are any online sources of gravestone incriptions in Dunoon and Kilmun. In 1997 the Scottish Genealogy Society published a booklet of Monumental Inscriptions in Kilmun churchyard, so maybe someone who has a copy of this would be willing to check for a record there of Alexander Grierson's death.
As for church records, Ardentinny is in the parish of Dunoon and Kilmun. The only extant pre-1855 burial records from this parish are from 1755-1772.
Sometimes the Kirk Session records include accounts, and such accounts record payments for the use of the mortcloth (a cloth used to cover the coffin during a funeral service) which may name the deceased person. The surviving Dunoon and Kilmun Kirk Session records are online at www.scotlandspeople.go.uk. I took a quick look at some pages of the minutes, but did not see any record of mortcloth payments there. There are records of mortcloth payments in the Kirk session and Heritors' minutes (CH2/456/4) but the ones I saw did not name the deceased. You may like to make a more thorough search of these records in case I missed something.
There is one other possibility. A pauper, after 1845, is specifically someone who receives assistance from the Parochial Board, and parochial board records, if they have survived, are a very useful source of all sorts of information including the death of the pauper. I do not know whether or not the parochial board records of Dunoon and Kilmun have survived, and if so where they are, but I would start by asking Argyll and Bute Council Archives https://liveargyll.co.uk/facility/archives/
Failing all this, you'll just have to do like the rest of us and record his date of death as 1851/1854!
-
CaroleW,
There seems to be a discrepancy with their ages in the 1861 Census.
Alexander's age in the 1841 census is given as 70 whereas 10 years later in 1851 he is 88.
Also Helen was born 1802 so she would have been 49 in 1851. Still a large difference in ages.
Wyanga
-
Forfarian,
Thank you for your detailed reply, I may just have to let him rest in peace.
They were my Gt Gt Grandparents and Alexander is a bit of a mystery. In the 1841 Census his birth place is given as Wigan but I have been unable to find a birth record for him about 1770.
I have Helen's death record as 28th May 1862
A daughter Helen migrated to Australia in 1857 and is my Gt Grandmother, the second daughter Sophia also migrated in 1867
Wyanga
-
Ages in 1841 were rounded down to the nearest 5 yrs. If he was 88 in 1851 his age should have been shown as 75 in 1841
in the 1841 Census his birth place is given as Wigan
The 1841 did not show actual birthplaces. The transcript says Scotland
The 1851 says Wigton Dumfries
-
I have Helen's death record as 28th May 1862
Death registered as McKellar & also as Gregorson - mmn Campbell
-
in the 1841 Census his birth place is given as Wigan
The 1841 did not show actual birthplaces. The transcript says Scotland
The 1851 says Wigton Dumfries
Even that is a bit odd.
Wigton is a small town in Cumberland, England.
Wigtown is in the county of Wigtown, aka Wigtownshire, in Scotland. The county of Kirkcudbright aka Kirkcudbrightshire lies between the county of Wigtown and the county of Dumfries aka Dumfries-shire.
www.scotlandsplaces does not know of a place called Wigton/Wigtoun/Wigtown in Dumfries-shire.
-
Forfarian
I had taken that it meant Wigtown on Wigtown bay. I understand that this was the home area of the McGregor clan and at some stage in History the English banned the clan and the McGregor name and that families in the area chose to adobt variations such as Gregson and Grierson among other variations. Forgive me if my Scottish history and geography is hazy.
I understand that Wigtown is near the boundary between Gallway and Dumfries
Wyanga
-
CaroleW
I was unaware that ages were rounded down in the 1851 Census. This would explain other differences in ages that I have had with other Scottish ancesters.
Also my other Gt Grandmother Ann Taylor had reverted to her maiden name of Wilson in the 1881 Census in Glasgow . So I was not surprised by Helen Grierson reverting to her maiden name of McKellar in the 1861 census.
She was the daughter of Peter McKellar and Margaret Campbell. He was a shepherd at Cuil near Barracaber in Argyll.
Wyanga
-
Rounded down in the 1841 census - not the 1851
-
Forfarian
The naming of Wigton Dumpfries in the 1851 census creates a real problem and combined with the variation in the ages given it looks to me as if it will be impossible to follow this family any further back. We could never be sure just who his parents might be.
Wyanga
-
I understand that Wigtown is near the boundary between Gallway and Dumfries
Well, not exactly.
Wigtown is indeed on Wigtown Bay, but it is in the historic county of Wigtown. The next county to the east is Kirkcudbright, and the next one after that is Dumfries.
Galloway (not to be confused with Galway which is in Ireland) is the part of south-west Scotland west of the River Nith, which flows through the burgh (town) of Dumfries. At Dumfries itself, the Nith also forms the boundary between Kirkcudbrightshire and Dumfries-shire, so part of the present town is actually in the historic county of Kirkcudbrightshire.
So Galloway effectively covers the counties of Wigtown and Kirkcudbright, and the parish and burgh of Wigtown is not actually near the boundary with Dumfries-shire. It is quite close to the boundary between Wigtownshire and Kirkcudbrightshire.
In 1975 the Powers That Be thought fit, for administrative purposes, to sweep away all the historic counties and replace them with a new set of local authorities. One of those new local authorities is called Dumfries and Galloway, and covers the same area as the three counties already mentioned.
So for historical purposes, like genealogy, you need to concentrate on the historic counties, because all the records until 1975 were collected on the basis of those counties. You also need to be aware of the importance of parishes in finding your way around the older records.
The screenshot is a map which might help. It's from https://maps.nls.uk/view/00000262, and dates from the early 18th century.
-
I understand that this was the home area of the McGregor clan and at some stage in History the English banned the clan and the McGregor name and that families in the area chose to adobt variations such as Gregson and Grierson among other variations.
Where do I start?
Galloway is not, strictly and historically speaking, clan territory. Originally the clans were a social feature of the Highlands, not of the Lowlands and south of Scotland, though the concept of clanship has now spread to the most significant families in the Lowlands and south of Scotland.
The heartlands of Clan Gregor were further north, in Perthshire and Argyll, and there are no records at all of baptisms, marriages or burials of M*cGr*g*rs in the county of Wigtown before 1766. (There is one record of a Grierson in 1706.)
It is true that the surname MacGregor was proscribed, that many MacGregors were forced to change their surnames, and that Grierson and Gregson were among the names adopted.
However this cannot be blamed on the English government, because the original edict was pronounced by King James VI (who subsequently became King James I of England) in 1603, and was restated by an Act of the Scottish Parliament in 1617. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Gregor
On the other hand, according to G F Black's The Surnames of Scotland the Griersons of Lag, Dumfries-shire, claim descent from Malcolm, dominus de MacGregor, who died in 1374, but he goes on to say that Col Fergusson's Lairds of Lag says, 'There is no evidence or foundation for the story that this family was an offshoot of the Highland family of MacGregor'.
There are records of Griersons dating back to the 15th century, mostly from Dumfries and Galloway, so not all Griersons were proscribed MacGregors, and in particular I see no reason to think that your Alexander G was descended from a proscribed MacGregor.
(You could try to blame the banning of tartan and bagpipes among other things after the 1745 Jacobite Rising on the English Government, except that by then the parliaments of Scotland and England were united (1707) so it was the United Kingdom Parliament that was responsible for that edict.)
-
The naming of Wigton Dumpfries in the 1851 census creates a real problem and combined with the variation in the ages given it looks to me as if it will be impossible to follow this family any further back. We could never be sure just who his parents might be.
A couple of things.
First, I am pretty sure that we are all relying on transcriptions of that 1851 census. You should take a look at the original, just to be sure that it does actually say Wigton and Dumfries. Both enumerators and transcribers can make errors.
Second, don't give up without at least asking if the Archives has the Parochial Board record that must have existed for Alexander Grierson. If it has survived, it should tell you his parish of birth, and it may name his parents.
-
I couldn't resist looking at the 1851 census image earlier
-
Forfarian
Thank you for taking the time to update me on the History of the counties and parishes.
I had done a search on maps and had arrived at an understanding of the area. Also for the McGregor family History.
We are still left with the problem of the 1851 Census as Kay99 has kindly shown it is definately recorded as Wigton. My thoughts on this are that there were Census collectors who wrote down what they thought they heard the individual say, speech and accent could very well have made Wigtown sound like Wigton. But that doesn't alter the fact that it is not in Dumfrieshire. He was at that time an old man and maybe was confused in his thinking.
As you say trying to see if there are any records surviving for the pauper payments in the Dunoon Parish might be my only avenue left. Alexander's wife Helen was also listed as a pauper in the 1861 Census, she had also reverted to her maiden name of McKellar in that census and was living with a sister at Ardentinny
There were too many Peter McKellars in the area for me to be able to find his parents but i had more success with his wife Margaret Campbell who came from Lochgoilhead. Again I had to negotiate a change of names . her father was Duncan Campbell and wife Nancy McKoel but the McKoel name was dropped and they reverted to the sept name McNaughton. They were narried in 1775. I was able to trace Duncan Campbell back to a Donald Campbell at Guananbeg Argyll
Wyanga
-
Kay99
Thank you for the screenshot of the Census. It confirmed that it was written as Wigton , Dumfrieshire.
But someone has put a line accross Wigton as if it is incorrect
Wyanga
-
My thoughts on this are that there were Census collectors who wrote down what they thought they heard the individual say, speech and accent could very well have made Wigtown sound like Wigton.
At that date, I wouldn't give even a passing thought to spelling.
But that doesn't alter the fact that it is not in Dumfrieshire. He was at that time an old man and maybe was confused in his thinking.
Possibly, or maybe it was an enumerator's error.
in the 1861 Census, she had also reverted to her maiden name of McKellar
It's very common in the early censuses for a married or widowed woman to be recorded under her own maiden surname. This is because in Scots law a woman does not lose her maiden surname when she marries. It's for the same reason that you get the mother's maiden surname in the majority of baptism records, and in all post-1855 birth, marriage and death records. In legal documents a married woman is named as xxx yyy or zzz, xxx being her given name(s), yyy her maiden surname and zzz her husband's surname.
-
Kay99
Does the original of the 1851 census say exactly where Margaret Campbell or McKellar was born? FindMyPast's transcription only says Argyll.
-
Kay99
Does the original of the 1851 census say exactly where Margaret Campbell or McKellar was born? FindMyPast's transcription only says Argyll.
Alexander's mother-in-law Margaret lists her birthplace as Kilmun - the same as her daughter Helen
Kay
-
Thanks, Kay99.
wyanga, if this is correct, Margaret Campbell or McKellar cannot be the one baptised in Lochgoilhead in 1775, because Lochgoilhead is a separate parish from the parish of Dunoon and Kilmun. So don't hasten up that tree until you have some proper evidence that it's the right tree.
Just because there is only one candidate in the available records does not mean that they are the right one. There are many gaps in the records before the start of civil registration in 1855, and the further back you go, the more records, if they ever existed, have not survived.
I see that Duncan McKellar and Margaret Campbell had a large family; Catherine 1801, Hellen 1802; Anne 1804; Peter 1806; John 1808; Margaret 1810; James 1812; Archibald 1815; Mary 1816; Sophia 1819 and Donald 1822. No Agnes, as you would have expected if Margaret's mother's name was Agnes or Nancy; though it is true that the names Anne and Agnes are sometimes used interchangeably.
If I were you I would have a look at the baptisms to see if the names of witnesses are recorded, and if so, whether they contain any clues to the identities of the grandparents.
-
Apolgies Forfarian - rechecked the 1851 image and it was Margaret's son Donald who was listed as born in Kilmun. Although Margaret is listed as born Argylshire there is a line through where the parish would be rather than the ditto as in the entry above for her grandaughter Sophia :-\
Kay
-
Fortarian and Kay99
I am sure that my tracking of the McKellar family is correct.
\ I have tracked the births (baptisms) of all the 12 children of Peter and Margaret McKellar on Scotlandspeople and they commence with Duncan McKellar. 1/11/1798, Dunoon Kilmun,
Catherine 11/12/1801 Slighgrachan, Dunoon, Helen 19/12/1802 Slighgratchan, Anne , 12/8/1804 Slighgrachan, Peter 17/5/1807, Slighgrachan, John 10/7/1807 Slighgratchan, Margaret 4/71810
Slighgrachan, James 26/11/1812, Slighgrachan, Archibald 21/12/1815, Slighgrchan, Mary 13/9/1816 Slighgrachan, Sophia 12/6/1819 Cuil Dunoon, Donald b 28/11/1820 baptised 13/1/1821.
Slighgachan was part of the Glenfinnert Estate further up the valley from Glenfinnert.
Margaret McKellar was buried at Lochgoilhead Churchyard
Peter McKellar was listed as a shepherd in 1841 and I have a map of Cuil with a sheep fold near the houses at Cuil near Barnacabber.
Wyanga
-
Fortarian
\ Quote"No Agnes, as you would have expected if Margaret's mother's name was Agnes or Nancy;
I assume that in this case the Nancy= Anne
My own mother was Annie and known as Nancy.
Wyanga
-
Death Record for Margaret McKellar
-
I am sure that my tracking of the McKellar family is correct.
Yes, I agree.
It's the next steps back that are potentially more difficult to be sure about.
I assume that in this case the Nancy= Anne
I keep reminding myself never to make assumptions :)
In every one of the baptisms of the family of Duncan Campbell, his wife's name is recorded as Agnes McKoel. There is not one single original record on Scotland's People naming a Nancy McKoel. So you don't need to account for Nancy=Agnes or for Nancy=Ann(e). You need to be sure why Agnes' daughter named a child (who was not her first daughter) Anne, but appears not to have named a daughter Agnes, which was the well documented given name of her mother.
Could they, for instance, have had an older daughter named Agnes whose baptism is not in the surviving records? I don't see a marriage record to see whether there was a gap between the marriage and the arrival of Duncan in 1798.
And why did Margaret Campbell not name one of her sons Neil after her brother?
On the other hand the presence of a Sophia among Agnes McKoel's daughters and another Sophia among her granddaughters is potentially a useful connection.
-
Fortarian
The marriage of Peter and Margaret was recorded as Peter McEllar in Dec.1797, Kilmun Dunoon and they were of Coul Glenfinnert.
Duncan and Agnes McKeol marriage is at Lochgoilhead 19th july 1857.
Margaret death registration gives her parents as Duncan Campbell and Nancy McNaughton.
Margaret's brother James death registration gives his parents Duncan Campbell and Nancy Naughton.
My notes on this marriage were as follows: The McKoel name appears to have dissappeared from the Lochgoilhead records about the late 1770's.
McKoel is a Sept name of the MacNaughton clan so it is likely that subsequent family members reverted to the clan name or variants of it.
Then for Margaret to be buried at Lochgoilhead confirms to me that this is where she had been born .
Duncan Campbells family was also large with 10 children.
Margaret was the 10th 29th Oct 1775. Her brother James was the 9th born 1773
There is no doubt that this was Margaret McKellars family.
These dates are from the Lochgoilhead records.
Wyanga
-
Good. Glad to see you've got some useful evidence to support your investigations.