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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: MissM on Monday 19 September 05 20:10 BST (UK)
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Does anyone remember a shop in the Anthony St area of Everton, Liverpool, owned by Albert Moneypenny in the 1960's and earlier? My Dad called him Uncle, but he was probably his Great Uncle.
I'd love to know where he fits into my family tree for sure, but I can't access the more recent records I need.
I have an old black and white photo from the LCC website - it shows the shop standing next to a pub on Netherfield Road and Rose Vale. The buildings around it have been demolished and cleared.
Any help is appreciated!
Lynne
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Hi Lynne, I remember the shop , and the man who worked in it, Mr. Moneypenny, the thing I remember about him was he suffered some form of affliction to his arm, like paralasys. Can't tell much more as I was only a kid then. Best Wishes, Jim.
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for replying.
Every little helps when you're trying to build up a picture! I didn't know about his arm.
I'm beginning to suspect Albert's first name was richard so I'm looking into that now. My Dad took me to visit the shop when I was little in the 60's but it was closed! I'm fairly certain my Dad worked there himself when he was younger - probably in the 30's.
Anyway, thanks for getting in touch.
Lynne
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Hello Lynne
I was talking to my husband's aunt today (she's 92) and her next door neighbour was Albert Moneypenny who owned a sweet shop in Everton.
They were living in Morningside Road, Norris Green - she thinks sometime in the 1950s.
Hope this is of some help
Dorothy
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Hi Dorothy
Thanks for replying.
I vaguely remember Morningside Road being mentioned when I was a child.
What I really need is some of Albert's relatives names so I can link him in to my tree.
I wonder if I can get hold of electoral rolls from that time? I know census information isn't released for 100 years, but I don't think there's any restriction on electoral rolls.
Anyway, thanks again for getting in touch! And thank you aunt for me too!
Lynne
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Hi Lynne
I should think that Liverpool Records Office would probably have the electoral rolls for that time, so it might be worth asking if someone is likely to be visiting the Records Office soon and would be willing to check for you?
I will speak to Aunt Laura again and see if I can spark any more memories of the Moneypennies. When she gets in full flow its amazing how much she remembers.
Best wishes
Dorothy
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Thanks Dorothy!
I have been quizzing my aunt recently who is 84 and, whilst I found out quite a bit about her parents, I also found out a lot about her husband's family who I have no connection with whatsoever!
It's all good fun!
Lynne
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Hi Miss M,
The sweet shop on Netherfield road was my grandads, William Moneypenny. He married Annie McFarlane the daughter of "Mrs Macs" the Walnut on Walnut street.
Nana & Grandad went on to live in the prefabs in Belle Vale (as did I and my parents) before we all got moved to Halewood in the late 1960's
Rob
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I remember 'Moneypennys' (till I was @5Yrs old we lived over the road (in St Georges Street).
My Mother used to help out in the shop occasionally & Albert used to give me & my sisters a Free 'Icecream on a Stick'.
If my Mother was still alive she would be able to rattle off All sorts of little titbits of info.
As has been stated by others, your best bet would be the Central Library Records Office, they have all the old electoral rolls, Gores/Kellys & some school records (amongst other things).
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Here are a list of Moneypenny's that lived in the area in 1960
Moneypenny, Bridget 12, Dawber Street
Moneypenny, Elizabeth 29, St. George’s Hill
Moneypenny, Lillian 29, St. George’s Hill
Moneypenny, Richard 29, St. George’s Hill
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Hi Lynne,
Albert Moneypenny was my Grandads (William Moneypenny) brother and they both ran grocers shops on Netherfield road. His wifes name was Lillian and they had two children, Val & Betty. Nanna & Grandad also had two daughters, Dolly & Lillian. During the war all four children were evacuated to a Lancashire village called Wray which is near Lancaster.
I think Albert & Bills parents either owned or rented a cottage in Wray before the war. Dolly marrried a local lad by the name of Robinson and lived there until she sadly died last year. I still visit Wray a few times a year to see my cousins.
Both Val and Betty have passed away which leaves only my Mum, Lillian, as the only surving daughter of the Moneypenny brothers of Netherfield road which probably explains why you cannot find anyone left named Moneypenny on this branch of your family tree.
I guess this makes us some kind of distant relatives eh ????
Rob
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Hi Rob
Here are the photos I told you about. They're obviously very old but you can make out the two different shops on them!
Lynne
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This is the other shop which I found out about recently when a friend on this board told me about it. (I believe the first shop, above, was on the corner of Anthony Street.)
x
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Hi Rob
It's Lynne here. I have mistakenly entered my email address wrongly in my personal settings and can't log back in as my original name of MissM! This also means I can't read your last personal message so can you post it here if possible please?
I can't believe I've done this after 6 years on the board but I was fiddling about with my settings and brain fog descended....
I guess I've lost all my previous thread contributions and my status as 'Rootschat Senior' which I was proud of, despite it making me sounds really old!
Hope you get this after all my messing about!
Lynne
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Hi Pegasuss, thanks for your memories of Great Great Uncle Albert's shop. As you've probably seen I also had a Great x 3 Uncle William who also had a shop!
I'm glad you have nice memories of Albert. My Dad took me to the shop once when I was little in the 60's but it was shut. He had worked there as a teenager in the 1920's so it was probably expecting a bit much for it still to be going! It would have been wonderful for me and now, Rob to hear your mother's recollections too.
Lynne
I remember 'Moneypennys' (till I was @5Yrs old we lived over the road (in St Georges Street).
My Mother used to help out in the shop occasionally & Albert used to give me & my sisters a Free 'Icecream on a Stick'.
If my Mother was still alive she would be able to rattle off All sorts of little titbits of info.
As has been stated by others, your best bet would be the Central Library Records Office, they have all the old electoral rolls, Gores/Kellys & some school records (amongst other things).
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Hi SusieKelly
thanks for info abut the Moneypennys. It corresponds with what Rob has been telling me as I do believe Richard known as Albert now.
Thanks for checking it out for me. I've messed up my account settings trying to work out why I hadn't received notification of these messages but I've found out today that Hotmail was putting them into my Junk file!!! Hence the delay in replying!
Best wishes,
Lynne
Here are a list of Moneypenny's that lived in the area in 1960
Moneypenny, Bridget 12, Dawber Street
Moneypenny, Elizabeth 29, St. George’s Hill
Moneypenny, Lillian 29, St. George’s Hill
Moneypenny, Richard 29, St. George’s Hill
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Lynne.
In the pic you posted at: Thursday 01 September 11 23:56 BST, the shop I remembered was the one on the right side.
Brings back Memories, we used to live over the road (St Georges St) till @Jan 1961.
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Hi Lynne,
I often get brain fade, tooooo many user nams and passwords to remember eh?
Great photos of the shops, Mum is sure the one next to the pub is Alberts and the other is Willimas,
William was born on the 30th January 1900 and passed away on the 9th November 1972, Mum is not sure of Alberts dates but he was older than William.
My Uncle Terry at Wray (Dorothy Moneypennys husband) will probably be able to tell me more about the boys parents as they often went to Wray, am not sure but they may have owned a cottage in the village.
Have scanned 3 photos for you but they failed to upload when I tried to send first time. will try seperate posts.
1 has William on his own, 2 has Albert, Willaim, Lillian, Anne and I think the lass in the middle was Lillians sister. 3 has Thomas with Dorothy Moneypenny.
Still having upload issues :-( will try again
Rob
X
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Hi Lynne,
William in his best bib and tucker
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Hi Lynne,
Left to right
Lillian, Albert, Lillians Sister, Willima & Anne
X
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Hi Lynne,
Thomas with Dorothy Moneypenny
X
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Hi Rob,
Thanks so much for posting the photos! I have never seen any of my great uncles before so it's wonderful to finally 'meet' them!
I am still trying to work out how we all link together because if we can find a common grandparent somewhere, it will help me so much with my tree. I have a whole database of every Moneyenny I come across but my line stops at Matthew who was born in 1809 in N Ireland. He married Elizabeth Cretney from the Isle of Man and their children were William, Sarah, Jane, Eliza, Ellen, and my Great Grandad, James born 1852.
I am looking forward to sharing your photos with my family who don't do much about the tree but seem to enjoy it when I bring them up to date!
Thanks again for sharing with me!
Lynne x
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It's me again Rob!
I've just found an old photo that my cousin Doreen sent me earlier this year of our Uncle Charlie with his Auntie Lilian.....
Recognise anyone? ;D
Second photo is Charlie with his brother, my Uncle Bill and their Mum, Mary sadly all passed on now.
Your mum might remember my grandad Matthew but he messed his family about quite a few times and is rememebred a a bit of a rogue apparently! I'll attach his photo in my next message.
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Looking again at Auntie Lilian she looks more like Grandma so she might not be your Mum after all!
Here's Grandad Matthew.
Great this, isn't it? ;D
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Hi Lynne,
Yep it is good fun.
Mum is trying her hardest to remember things and I am sure they will come back to her. My Dad told us the story of being a little boy in Rose Vale Everton and going to get sweets from a shop in Netherfield Rd. Many years later when he was home on leave from the Air Force he saw a girl he fancied at a dance in Speke, he told his mate he was going to marry her even though he had not even met her ! it turned out her Dad was.....................................................William Moneypenny the man from the sweet shop!! He told us this many times inhis last few days before he passed away in September 09, he hung on for 4 days to reach the 24th which was their wedding anniversary.
I have just dug out some notes my Auntie Dolly wrote about the family a few years before she passed away. I will get Uncle Terry to confirm but reading it I think Thomas Moneypennys wife was called Elizabeth and they also ran agrocers shop in Arkwright St before the war.
The notes seem to indicate that William & Albert had a sister named Lillian and another brother named Matthew who died at an early age. Lillian married a Vincent Cunnigham.Could these be the Lillian and Matthew in your photos ?
Rob X
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So they met in Speke? That's where I'm from and still live! What a lovely memory for your Mum to keep of your Dad's happiest days.
The Matthew in my last photo is definitely my Grandad - the one who left his family. We found it recently in an old box of photos my cousin has. That Auntie Lilian will have to wait to be identified! I do have record of other Moneypenny's that lived in the Toxteth Park area of Liverpool but I can't link them in yet. They include a Lilian Moneypenny b 1898 but she wasn't in Liverpool in the 1911 census that the others were on.
Do you know your Great Grandfather's name, father of William and Albert? I think it might be Richard as I have Albert as his son from the 1911 census. This would explain why Albert was actually christened Richard Albert but known by his middle name. There was also William b 1887, James b 1891, David 1893, and John b 1894.
This would then make my Grandad Matthew b 1885 and your Great Grandad Richard b 1881 brothers. And that would make Albert and William actually my Dad's cousins.
These were all children of James b 1856 and Elizabeth b 1863, my Great Grandparents, possibly (If I've got this right, your Great Great Granparents.)
James was the son of Matthew B 1809 and Elizabeth Cretney b 1803. My Great x 2 and your Great x 3! (I have Elizabeth's line back to Finloe Cretney b 1606 if you want it!)
A pretty big IF in all that so if you can find out your Grandad William's father's name it will confirm the above and we will have changed to become second cousins once removed!
As for Thomas who was married to Elizabeth - I have a Thomas married to an Elizabeth with a sister Lilian b 1897 and a brother William b 1900. He would have been a cousin of William and Albert's. Could that be your Thomas in the photo with Dolly? His Dad was also Thomas and his Dad was William, brother of the above James b 1856.
Oh no, it's just got more complicated!!!
Phew! Time for bed I think. My mind is swirling! I will try to spend some time this week getting the lines sorted out into an easier format to read. At the moment their all in a huge alphabetical database. If you ever want a look, I can email it to you!
Give your Mum my very best wishes and thank you both for all your memories.
Lynne
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Hi Lynne,
Yes Mum & Dad met at a dance in Speke, not sure of the venue. We lived in the prefabs at Belle Vale until they got demolished in the mid to late sixties and they moved us to Halewood. Dad worked at Plessy's and Mum worked at Trammers, we eventually moved to Great Sankey and are still there, apart from my brother Michael who emigarted to Australia :-(
William & Alberts Dad was the Thomas in the photograph I posted, he wifes name was Elizabeth I think. Am pretty certain that they also had a daughter Lillian and another son Matthew. Repetition of popular christian names do cause confusion eh?
Better get on with some work now, speak later
Rob X
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Hi Lynne,
I have been thinking, which is always a dangerous time!, I know I don’t have all the information and dates etc that you have but could it all be very simple?
Your comment about visiting Netherfield Rd in the sixties as a little girl means we are of a similar age (21 + VAT :) ) so, if your Dad called Albert Moneypenny (the one who ran a shop in Netherfield rd) “Uncle Albert” and your Grandad was called Matthew then doesn’t that make your Dad my Mum first cousins ?
Thomas Moneypenny had four children, Matthew, Albert, William & Lillian, so if Matthew was your Dads Dad (your Grandad) then he would have had an Uncle Albert, an Uncle William and an Auntie Lillian.
Too simple and way off the mark ?
Rob
X
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21 + VAT! I like it! Better than my half a century... :'(
I have researched my line back through wedding certificates and census information to make sure I had the right parents each time - it wasn't easy because some people didn't know their Date Of Birth and guessed their age every census - so my line goes like this:
Me!
Matthew b 1916 m to Enid Kidd
Matthew b 1885 m to Mary Roberts
James b 1856 m to Elizabeth
Matthew b 1809 m to Elizabeth Cretney
And as far as I can see your line goes:
You!
Lilian nee Moneypenny
William m Lilian
Richard b 1881
James b 1856 m Elizabeth
Matthew b 1809 m to Elizabeth Cretney
How does that look to you? :)
Matthew B 1809 and Elizabeth Cretney seem to have had 6 children and we are both descended from their son, James 1856. (Others are Sarah b 1835, Jane Ann b 1841, Eliza b 1845 and Ellen b 1848.)
James b 1856 and Elizabeth had at least 6 children and you are from Richard b 1881 and I am from Matthew b 1885. (Others are William b 1887, James 1891, David b 1893 and John b 1894. I don't have any of their children yet.)
I don't know why my Dad would call his cousin who was 13 years older, Uncle. ??? I wonder if his father Richard b 1881 was also known as Albert? It took me years to get to the bottom of this because I was looking for someone called Albert (!) much older than my Dad when in fact he was only 13 years older.
Now back to Matthew b 1809 and Elizabeth Cretney - they also had a son called William b 1832 m to Emma who had a son, Thomas b 1869.
Thomas married Elizabeth Ann and had 3 children Thomas 1896, Lily (Lilian?) b 1897 and William b 1900.
As far as I can work out so far, Thomas b 1896 had 5 children which follow BUT I haven't confirmed these with certificates at all and I'm still working on this line.
John, William, Margaret, James, and Elizabeth
These are the only Thomas's and Lilians I have come across so far except for the line you've given me so they obviously need more investigation. I have more Moneypennys from the Toxteth Park area on the 1911 Census which need clarifying too but I won't give you those yet because they're not worked on yet.
All in all, they all seem to come from Matthew b 1809 and Elizabeth Cretney. I have tried to many years to trace Matthew's family in N Ireland without success. :( I've got loads of Moneypennys over there but no Matthews whatsoever. The records are scant but more are gradually becoming available and I'm also looking for connections with a man called Hiram Moneypenny that I keep bumping into!
Well, that's enough to be going on with! I hope it all makes sense! It's been a labour of love that never ends. I'm writing down the names you're giving me and trying to fit it all together. Maybe we can do it with dates of birth if you have any. If you want to send me a private message with your email address is, I could send you some of the census information and certificates I have.
I'll let you know if I come up with anything else that helps!
Lynne x
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Just a quickie. I have found a wedding entry on Ancestry for Richard Albert Moneypenny in 1902. That would clear up why my Dad called him Uncle Albert. I presume his son, the second Richard Albert, b 1903 and brother to your Grandad, took over the shop from his Dad.
Now for Thomas....!
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Hi Lynne,
Wow it is complicated isn’t it? You have given me a headache – think that means you are really my secret sister!!!!!
I don’t have any dates, except William who was born 1900, but from me to great Grandparents:
Me!
Lillian nee Moneypenny m Albert “Bob” Volp
William m Anne McFarlane
Thomas m Elizabeth
Thomas & Elizabeth had three sons Albert, William & Matthew (who died a young man) & one daughter Lillian. This could be your entry:
“Thomas married Elizabeth Ann and had 3 children Thomas 1896, Lily (Lillian?) b 1897 and William b 1900.”
That is assuming it was “Thomas Albert” and you have not found any records of Matthew who died a young man. I am pretty certain Albert married a Lilly Adams
Will speak to Mum, Uncle Terry and also my cousin Colin over the next few days and see if I can find any dates.
Rob X
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Hi Rob, Good News!
This was really annoying me so I've purchased some credits on another site (pay as you go - quite cheap!) to clarify properly who lived with whom in the 1911 census and you are quite right. ;D
Richard Albert b 1903 was indeed the son of Thomas b 1869 and yes, the little brother of Thomas, Lily and William! I had presumed he was the son of my Grandad's brother, my Dad's Uncle, also Richard b 1881 who was a Decorator in 1911! You're right about these confusing repetative names!
It shows them all living together over the shop at 69 Anthony Street which was a General Dealer. In 1901 they were at 74 Anthony Street. Another interesting but sad fact that is listed is that they had 7 children but 3 had died so one of them could have been the Matthew you talked about.
SO!
Your line now goes thus:
You
Lillian nee Moneypenny m Albert “Bob” Volp
William m Anne McFarlane
Thomas m Elizabeth
William b 1832 and Emma b 1834
Matthew b 1809 and Elizabeth Cretney b 1803
So there you go! We are now third cousins once removed.... I think! I'm so glad you shared your info with me because it's helped me to sort that line out so thank you for introducing me to Thomas, and in return I've given you two more generations for your tree!
If you ever want any other details or to expand on your tree, let me know. I have enough to keep you going for years! I now need to work out who my Dad worked for and why he called him Uncle!
Lynne x
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Hi Lynne,
Glad I have been able to help you fill in the missing pieces, let me know if you need anything and I will gladly do my best.
I have spoken to my Cousin Colin and he is going to chat to his Dad who was married to Dorothy Moneypenny and see if he can come up with anything interesting for you. I do know one bit of news but this open forum is not the place. (not sure how to PM you)
As I said I stumbled upon your search simply by looking for a photograph of Williams shop for my mum and have now got the bug for tracing my roots. Do you use a specific piece of software to log it all ? and apart from this site where else do you find your information ? I would be gratetful for any advice. Colin was really excited to chat when I rang him the other night, he is going to dig out what paperwork his Dad has on the Moneypenny's. We also know that it will be interesting, and no doubt difficult, to trace Williams wife Anne McFalane's
family. We know graet Nanna Mac ran the Walnut pub on Walnut St and that her Husband John was an international flat jockey who rode for the Kaiser and also the Tsar of Russia.
Will speak to you soon
Rob X
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Hello,
Sorry to revive a dormant thread and piggyback on it, but I was very excited to read your Moneypenny research when it came up in my google search. I have reason to believe I am related to this line, and would love a quick chat to find out more.
Hoping you're still around...?!
Laura
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Hi Laura, yes the Moneypenny family had a couple of shops in the Netherfield Road district of Everton, Liverpool. On Facebook there is a group called Netherfield Road and Surrounding Area and there are some photos of the Moneypenny Family and their shops. I didn't know any of the family as I was only a child at that time, but others on that site would probably give you more information. I have taken a photo from there for you, it is of Albert and William Moneypenny and their families.
(https://www.facebook.com/groups/1637350563194279/search/?query=moneypenny[)
Hmm, doesn't look like the link worked, Sorry. Regards, Jim.
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Hello,
Sorry to revive a dormant thread and piggyback on it, but I was very excited to read your Moneypenny research when it came up in my google search. I have reason to believe I am related to this line, and would love a quick chat to find out more.
Hoping you're still around...?!
Laura
Miss M who posted the thread - lives opposite me - I have sent her a phone text - she will be excited to find out who you are Laura - good luck :)
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Thanks Jim- I will definitely look at the Facebook page.
Thanks garstonite - fingers crossed!
Laura
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Hello,
Sorry to revive a dormant thread and piggyback on it, but I was very excited to read your Moneypenny research when it came up in my google search. I have reason to believe I am related to this line, and would love a quick chat to find out more.
Hoping you're still around...?!
Laura
Hi Laura,
Garstonite got in touch with me earlier, and yes, I'm still here! Pleased to meet you!
My Moneypenny lines goes from me, to my Dad Matthew, Grandad Matthew, G Grandad James, G x 2 Grandad Matthew.
Which line are you from?
Lynne x
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Hi Lynne,
Well, I'm inclined to think that James is my Great Great Grandad - if it's ok I'll pm you with my reasoning, as it's not 100% certain..!
Laura